Infinitely above baseline 2-A Ben 10 cosmology and Alien X

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

What are people not getting here?

Things like "countless", "endless", "not limited", "continues forever" are all not enough to qualify for 2-A here. At all. We literally only go with "infinite", not some other simultaneous term that tries going about it a different way.

 

[Greenshifter]

Aaaand Fandom just ate my post

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

>Once again, this is not how it works and you never 'eventually' reach infinity, you stay ever expanding, you can't reach infinity through increasing finite numbers, that's not how our standard works otherwise DBH would have been 2-A a long time ago.

This exact same argument was made in this thread and rejected. People argued you cant eventually reach infinite speed, which is obviously not true in JJBA's case.

It's also why Tangram is listed as 2-A, despite,the lightnovel and her profile clearly mentioning several times that she is the gatekeeper of infinitely expanding/branching worlds.

And not only that, Chronos from Chrono Clock is also considered 2-A for sayin :" "Time expands infinitely in every direction and every moment in time exists simultaneously" and

"if it really is possible to go back in time and change events of the future then then the space-time continuum must be like an infinitely long branch"

So yes clearly this is how our standard works.And again, does anyone in DBH ever destroy or is stated to be capable of destroying every infinite branching timeline/ universe, including universes that dont yet exist? Because if not, then you are making a false equivalence.

Unlike DBH/ DBS, alternative timelines pre-exist in Ben 10 before a person goes back in time to change history.

All timelines, such as past, potential alternative future timelines or timelines out of sync with time exist simultaniously with every other timeline.

 

[Greenshifter]

Anyways here is why timelines are not equal to dimensions in Ben 10 and why the time-stream is Ben-centric:

Paradox: Nonsense. Hello, Ben Tennyson. Tennysons plural. We haven't met well, I have, but you haven't. Professor Paradox at your service. Amazing a universe without an Omnitrix. It boggles the mind.

Paradox: The Omnitrix. Every Ben Tennyson throughout space and time has had his fate intertwined with that of the Omnitrix. You, however, have not. Hence you are being targeted.

Professor Paradox: We are now near the beginning of the Ben Prime timeline -- the trunk of the Ben Tennyson tree from which all the other realities diverge. You must reboot this timestream.

Thus every timeline besides No Watch Ben's has an Omnitrix and in every timeline there is a Ben Tennyson who grew up like Ben Prime did. Since Dagon conquered those dimensions before Ben was born they are a contradiction to Paradox statement 3 (this was right before the Omnitrix crash-landed on earth), hence not alternate timelines. Ledgerdomain has floating rocks instead of towns and presumably doesn't have an Omnitrix, contradiction with Paradox statement 1, 2 and 3, same story with the Null Void. Thus these dimensions are absolutely not included in Paradox's Ad-Infinitum statement which talks about alternate timelines and stuff like the Gwen 10 timeline or the Vilgax Attacks timeline.

Now Gen Rex is also not an alternate timeline since WOG confirmed it isn't and there is no Bellwood so no Ben (with the same past as Ben Prime) and thus a contradiction with Paradox statement 3, thus is also one of those alternate dimensions such as the Null Void and Dagon's universe and hence does not contradict Paradox's Ad-Infinitum statement and any further mention of Paradox's statement is derailing the thread.

@Kukui I will respond to your other stuff about Gen Rex soon.

 

[Greenshifter]

Also @everyone else Ultima already rejected infinite timestream, it's not that its not infinite just it doesn't grant an upgrade for a weird-ish reason that I sorta get and agree with.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

>@Ultima Reality What Ben 10 describes would be closer to the idea of "potential infinity", if anything, as the timelines are constantly multiplying in number instead of all possibilities already existing simultaneously, as I've said and there's also the fact this would be Low 1-C if legit, not 2-A, but we're not gonna talk about that

True, a new timeline comes into existence when travelling in time( well this doesnt apply to all alternative timelines), however, all possible timelines exist simultaneously. We know this, because just before Gwen went back in time to change the future, Paradox warned her about what would happen and even informed about what had changed after she did eventually do it. Paradox is not pshycic or omniscient, he wouldnt know anything about the timeline Gwen created unless he had already been there, which should be impossible since she had not created it when he warned her. Unless it already existed before she changed the future.

Paradox also knew about another possible timeline, a timeline that wont come into existence until 200 years into the future, which also wouldnt make any sense unless he had aready been there before the events that created it had even happened..

Heck, Paradox even said that all those ad infinitum paralel universes are every bit as real as their own, meaning all of them exist just like their own, it doesnt make sense to say something is real when it doesnt yet exist. Nothing that doesnt exist is real.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Door yeah ok maybe, I was gonna discuss this further but maybe in private with Ultima since I don't really know what you need for potential infinity to be legit 2-A or Low 1-C.

 

[FRIMI]

i dont think we're ever gonna get low 1-C, but if so, wow is ben 10 gonna be the weakest low 1-C verse by far lol

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

i dont see how this is above 2-A tbh, other series with similar statements about infinitely branching timelines existing simultaneously are also only 2-A

 

[Greenshifter]

This point was referencing Generator Rex, not Ben 10. But i'll respond anyway. Unless you are sitting here and wanting me to accept some vague intepretion of this meaning higher-d dimensions all because of the words "dimension", that definitely isn't going to fly.

Already explained this before so the short answer here is that it's not higher-d dimensions, just a different type of group of universes that has nothing to do with Paradox's Ad-Infinitum statement that exclusively deals with alternate timelines.

No, thats one interpretation out of multiple reasons on why I disagree with it. The main crux is that statement is being made by someone who was not only initally denying anything to do with alternate worlds, but someone whos used math and last minute theorizing to suddenly come to such a large conclusion. While on the other hand, the average scientist or whatnot in Ben 10 already has that and much more, who are jokes compared to Professor Paradox and he doesn't side with that interpretation at all.

I already explained how it's not last minute if you have half a day but whatever. Said person is still an extraordinary genius and would have said "I think" if she wasn't sure which is in-character for her to do so. A lot of people in Gen Rex would have died if it weren't for Holiday's quick thinking (a lot of people = every non-EVO on earth and everyone with nanites on earth, which is just everyone). Also seeing as quantum theory IRL probably alludes to infinite dimensions it's not a large but an accurate conclusion. No Ben 10 scientist gives any limit on the amount of alternate dimensions, not even Paradox as already explained above.

It should be pretty clear on why siding with Holiday's statement being 2-A is just, no offense, desperation for an upgrade. Any other verse would never be given an upgrade this humongous for evidence so very little in scope as this.

Don't need a lot of evidence if your statement is clear-cut and this is more attacking people and comparing to other verses than actually addressing my points.

Yeah no. If she isn't solely speaking about universes, what else would she be talking about that Ben 10 wouldnt already have for their Multiversal cosmology? The only thing differing from parallel worlds would be higher d realities, which is even more reason on why this upgrade is unfounded based off of Holiday.

Pocket dimensions and infinitely large dimensions (such as the Null Void) are also dimensions, unless we conclude that every dimension is universe sized (and thus the Null Void's size being officially retconned) then that's also fine by me.

Yes I know, which is part of why im against Generator Rex being allowed to judge Ben 10's Cosmology size when, outside of this crossover episode, they never remotely tackle into such a thing for their own verse. The highest thing they deal with is strictly in the matters of the scope of their own universe and nothing outside it.

Did you see Rex and Breach being outside the universe (most likely)? Also does when it happened really matter? In the crossover it was revealed that Caesar built a Dimensional Disruptor, this is just backstory that happens to be dropped during the crossover which is completely canon to Gen Rex. Also generally universe-altering weapons such as the meta-nanites give people a higher intelligence rating than knowing how many parallel universes there are.

Of course, im not even denying the possibility existing. But we don't rate such things here based of possibilities. Without clear explicit evidence, something like this rises into a whole area of speculation that is too vague to accept. Remember, extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence the higher you climb a tier.

I'm wondering would you be open to a possibly rating? Not saying that I'm going for that but maybe if the opinions on this are divided enough (This basically comes down to opinion on how smart and credible Holiday is regarding the matter and don't involve Paradox, if Paradox's statement is not applicable, do you accept a possibly?) I might be open to that.

Okay? Thats cool and dandy, but making a cure for some poison and literally possessing knowledge on the existence of whole entire different universes outside of your own is such a massive difference in knowledge that its incomprehensible. Thats like saying someone using technology to cure an unknown illness can suddenly rise to speak about interstellar matters regarding our universe.

This was an example of her working speed, not of her intelligence.

When speaking about something as vast as the subject of alternate realities, you must have incredibly big knowledge to be a credible source to speak upon it.

Doctor Holiday has a very vast knowledge, she knows how to function as an astronaut and nanites in Gen Rex are a combination of (one of) the 3 highest-technological branches currently existing: Bio-mechanical integration, AI and micro-engineering thus requiring a vast knowledge if you want to make a cure for them.

Maybe being "ignorant" was the wrong choice of words here. The point here is that for most of this crossover, Holiday was denying the idea that parallel worlds exist and didn't believe in the idea that they do. Now nearing the end of the crossover, she suddenly plays around with equations and jumps to the conclusion that not only do they do exist, but theres an infinite amount of them???

30 minutes out of half a day is not most of the crossover. Also like I said before is infinite is accurate just like our own possible multiverse then why is it a big deal when she mentions infinite?

But its not already established in Ben 10. Holiday's statement is whats supposed to jump Ben 10 up to an infinite multiverse in the first place. Whats already established is that Ben 10 has a vast expanding Multiverse, not an already infinite one. And Ben 10 being a multiverse before this crossover happened doesnt make her anymore right.

I meant parallel universes already being established, it would be different if neither show had any allusion to parallel universes and suddenly there's infinite of them, instead Gen Rex builds on already existing concepts such as the Null Void and expands them.

Well first off, he obviously wouldnt mention "Complex Multiversal" literally in his answer as that term because Vs Debating terms are next to entirely non-existent to authors. Second, his answer involves the Multiverse because the fan was asking if Celestialsapiens were considered Multiversal aliens to begin with, which already suggests the answer isn't serious. Why do we need to sit here and selectively pick what part of the answer we think is serious, and what isnt serious, just so an upgrade is pushed? Thats not explicit, thats cherry picking what we want.

The answer is to questions 1 and 2 and doesn't have anything to do with question 3 which mentions Complex Multiversal.

We also see that Derrick never responded to anything else that fan was asking of him either, which suggests more that Derrick threw him a bone so he could get him to shut up. Just like many authors do with annoying fan-related questions. This is precisely why Matthew explained in Cal's thread that authors who give detailed explantions to people who have the jobs in asking questions like that should be the only author answers accepted as evidence here.

Yet Atomix is still accepted to be 5-A and there are several author statements that we use, we just need to judge them case-by-case, I say that in this case it's applicable. Also I think Derrick did respond to other stuff the fan asked.

Not to mention, Derrick starts his response with I dont believe the entire Multiverse is rebooted. Why would an author to their own series use guesswork?

Door answered this already.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Twitter Quotes should be banned wiki-wide.

 

[Planck69]

Twitter Quotes should be banned wiki-wide.

 

[Dragomer]

I legit agree with Matthew on that, accepting them is just begging for people to try and circumvent the 'don't start annoying the people who worked on the stuff we argue about'.

Like at least have an actual interview or something, even a blog rather than freaking twitter.

 

[Planck69]

Honestly this has allowed people to wank verses to hell and back. Very few authors are consistent enough in their WoG for twitter posts to be anything reliable. Exempting maybe GoW and a few other verses and even they use what's in the actual work as proof and the posts as supporting evidence as most.

 

[Dragomer]

Even if we didn't give a shit about annoying the staff / authors into telling us our fav is tier 0 with questions clearly tailored to just make them go 'yeah, sure', twitter is like the worst place for that, how can you elaborate on a character / capacity to answer a fan in a measly 250 letters that you're probably writing on the toilet anyway ? and that's without taking into account how the account is probably managed by a social media intern rather than the actual author (which is why we still have Stan Lee's twitter account twitting crap despite him being long dead.)

 

[DemonicDude]

Or just collect posts from twitter and make a blog for the sake of not posting twitter links that could be a possible way.

 

[Planck69]

Or just collect posts from twitter and make a blog for the sake of not posting twitter links that could be a possible way.

I dont think you seem to understand what the problem is here...

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Im going to form a response to Green later but for now I will say this. I absolutely 100% agree with Matt. I honestly thought our current rule on those types of author statements had included the "must be from an official interview" bit in it. And if it doesn't atm, it most certainly should be added.

Unless an author is commenting on something, with actual detail, and is answering someone whos job it is to ask those kind of questions, we shouldnt accept author answers for random schmucks who can ask that any time. Like, at all.

Want examples? Look at the shit Demonbane has had to deal with currently. And they were huge offenders of using social media author statements as evidence. Hell, Cal himself even pointed out that he went to a party and met the creator of Young Justice. But he wouldnt use that chance to ask if Superman was 1000000000000000x FTL or anything just for the sake of inflating a verse.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Even if we didn't give a shit about annoying the staff / authors into telling us our fav is tier 0 with questions clearly tailored to just make them go 'yeah, sure', twitter is like the worst place for that, how can you elaborate on a character / capacity to answer a fan in a measly 250 letters that you're probably writing on the toilet anyway ? and that's without taking into account how the account is probably managed by a social media intern rather than the actual author (which is why we still have Stan Lee's twitter account twitting crap despite him being long dead.)

This is actually a good point. Like, a really good point that I never considered.

Majority of famous celebrities in general, let alone authors, have other people to run their social media accounts most of the time instead of running it themselves. So for all we know, the answers fans get can very easily just be from whatever intern who doesnt know what to say.

 

[Planck69]

This, so much this. I'm pretty sure if I asked if Asriel was Low 1-C in the right way, I'd get a "Yes, easily" and be able to inflate their statistics to hilarious proportions. I think people can see what's wrong with this.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

There is a differnece between an author answering a leading question such as " Does this verse have 100 universes?" or " is this character FTL" , with asking " how big is the multiverse in this series" and " how fast is this character" ? Can seriously none of you tell the difference between a leading question and a normal question? 'Moreoever, if we were to ban WOG from tweets, then we should do the same with Ask.fm, meaning Derricks' statement about Atomix being above Waybig gets thrown out as well.

About someone else running the social media account, you would have a point if it was their company Man Of Action account where the WOG statements came from, but it wasnt, it's their personal social media accounts. None of their tweets or bio's implies someone else is using them.

 

[DemonicDude]

Yeah but Atomix is scaled to Malware although being Class Z in lifting strength is a massive stretch.

 

[FRIMI]

personally, I always thought that atomix being above way big was total BS anyway since to'kustars are known planet busters and Atomix seems generally pretty sub-planet to me

 

[MrLuk2000]

That statement of Atomix being his second strongest alien is actually backed up in the show with Ben confirming it

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Atomix being a fusion of Alien X in general is more than enough evidence to prove his tier. We dont need Author statements for him and I for one certainly never used it to make a case for Atomic X

I still vehemently disagree with Atomic X being that low. His "antifeats" are, again, just simple PIS.

 

[MrLuk2000]

"Atomix being a fusion of Alien X"

Wut?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

@MrLuk

Spelling error.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@ProfessorKukui4Life Atomix isnt a fusion, what are you talking about? we arent talking about Atomic X, so you have no reason to even bring him up. @mrLuk when does Ben confirm it?

 

[DemonicDude]

Check his stats then

 

[FRIMI]

yeah I'd also like to know when ben says this, because I don't recall it either

 

[The_Causality]

I don't see the problem of using twiter WoG when they are consistent and well explained.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I don't see the problem of using twiter WoG when they are consistent and well explained.

Because they arent consistent and well explained? Seriously, a one word answer absolutely isnt well explained whatsoever. And as Dragomer pointed out before, theres also the fact there's 0 evidence those twitter accounts are even personally run by the authors themselves instead of an intern doing it for them.

For many reasons, much of which was pointed out here, twitter author statements need to be banned from being used for any verse's statistics here. Entirely.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

It really is just people being unable to grasp the difference between a leading question and a normal question, and ignoring that WOG has consistently said that the Ben 10 verse if infinite.

But if we were to go with what they are proposing, then Vector Prime isn't 1-C, because Transform-verse being a low complex multiverse comes from a WOG Facebook statement where the author said to " a random schmuck" that Transformer-verse has uncountable amount of universes. The author wasnt answering "someone whos job it is to ask those kind of questions".

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Can people legit stop bringing up other verses here as a counter argument? That has been solely used for the entire discussion here. 2 wrongs dont make a right. Your literally just putting those verse's ratings into question as well by doing that.

And if thats the case, then yeah. Downgrade them as well.

 

[The_Causality]

Because they arent consistent and well explained? Seriously, a one word answer absolutely isnt well explained whatsoever. And as Dragomer pointed out before, theres also the fact there's 0 evidence those twitter accounts are even personally run by the authors themselves instead of an intern doing it for them For many reasons, much of which was pointed out here, twitter author statements need to be banned from being used for any verse's statistics here. Entirely.

This is why i've said when they are consistent and well explained lol.

I still don't see why they can't be used when the statement make sense and made by the author (confirmed to being theaccount of the author if you want).

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

For many reasons, much of which was pointed out here, twitter author statements need to be banned from being used for any verse's statistics here. Entirely.

The twitter account is their personal account, it's not the Ben 10 account or Man Of Action account, the burden of proof is on you to prove their personal account isnt run by them. The only valid point about this, is the fact that Derrick isn't a writer for Ben 10, so all his statements should not be used.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Because Death of the Author is a very real thing and whats actually shown or implied in canon > the author.

Unless the verse can actually back up the authors version of events, we shouldnt be relying on vague social media comments as a means to inflate a verse here.

 

[Dragomer]

Stan Lee's account was confirmed to be Stan Lee's account yet it's still tweeting 2 year after his death, social media media 'verification' in no way guarantee you're not just talking to a community manager at best.

 

[AwkguyDB]

yeah thats like asking Derrick how strong is Ben 10 as Alien X and he says he's Omnipotent.

 

[The_Causality]

Because Death of the Author is a very real thing and whats actually shown or implied in canon > the author.
Unless the verse can actually back up the authors version of events, we shouldnt be relying on vague social media comments as a means to inflate a verse here.

Isn't this is true to literally all secondary material to the canon..?