Infinitely above baseline 2-A Ben 10 cosmology and Alien X

[Greenshifter]

Low 1-C Alien X based on Transformers let's go!

Yeah I agree this shouldn't be used unless there is further context but I'm pretty sure no-one at MoA even talked about this so that's a no.

 

[Greenshifter]

Also maybe don't talk about Transformers in this thread...?

Also wait a sec couldn't this possibly be used to upgrade/back up stuff in Transformers? Probably not but who knows if Transformers people think it can help then hit me up on my wall.

 

[Greenshifter]

Anyways the thread on the standards about WoG seems to be concluded, I think this WoG fits our standards since it backs up stuff in-verse(s) (Holiday's statement) and the writer elaborated in his first answer while completely disregarding any vs terms in the questions at hand. Is everyone fine with this?

 

[AwkguyDB]

Yeah thats definitely not getting accepted here. Not only do we have very strict crossover rules in place here, but this isnt the first time where we rejected something like this.
IIRC, Dragon Ball was mentioned somewhere in the Marvel verse in some manner. Im 98% positive anyway. But we dont make the verses canon to each other at all.

Lol Vegeta himself was in Fantastic Four

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Anyways the thread on the standards about WoG seems to be concluded, I think this WoG fits our standards since it backs up stuff in-verse(s) (Holiday's statement) and the writer elaborated in his first answer while completely disregarding any vs terms in the questions at hand. Is everyone fine with this?

No. Like I said im going to reply to everything you posted before when I have the chance because I still disagree with it.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

I agree we shouldnt use Derrick's WOG statement, because Derrick isnt even the writer. He is the art director. also i would likesomeone to reply to post regarding timelines existing simultaneously.

 

[DemonicDude]

We can't use MoA statements as well cause they always reply on Twitter

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

We still have the various evidence I showcased that proves that all timelines exist simultaneously, and the fact that nothing suggest that they dont + Paradox and all other characters never said anything implying that the paralell timelines will eventually reach infinite or that it increases with time. Paradox straight up says that all ad ininiftum timelines are equally real as the main timeline.

and other verses with infinite branching timelines are still treated as 2-A.

 

[Malomtek]

This is a bad thread.

The timestream in Ben 10 works in a way that it generates an infinite number of timelines in a finite amount of time, with the process ongoing even after. There, all timestream blah-blah in Ben 10 reconciled.

It's still only slightly above baseline 2-A.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@Malomtek I agree, even if it was infinite to the power of infinity above baseline 2-A, it would still be 2-A. You're not getting anything above 2-A, unless you can prove Ben 10 has an uncountable amount of universes or that its 5th dimension is infinitely above the 4th dimension which nothing suggests.

And so far only you have commented on the fact that infinite timelines branched off simlutaneously in Ben 10, I have asked several staff members but they all seem to be busy. Ultima said he will look into it later. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence that proves all parallel timelines exist simultanously, and nothing that suggests the opposite.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

My reply to Green:

>Already explained this before so the short answer here is that it's not higher-d dimensions, just a different type of group of universes that has nothing to do with Paradox's Ad-Infinitum statement that exclusively deals with alternate timelines.

And it doesnt mean anything for your argument. It simply means Ben 10 was originally a 2-C sized Multiverse with 100s of dimensions and when Ben got the Omnitrix, the verse's timelines expanded into a 2-B sized Multiverse.

>I already explained how it's not last minute if you have half a day but whatever.

Stop arguing semantics, you know exactly what I meant by this. The point is, taking up such little time to play around with numbers and come to the conclusion that there are infinite universes is by far the weakest attempt of being knowledgeable on the subject of alternate worlds and isn't acceptable here. Verses with far more than this get 2-A rejected for them, this wouldnt be any different.

>Said person is still an extraordinary genius and would have said "I think" if she wasn't sure which is in-character for her to do so. A lot of people in Gen Rex would have died if it weren't for Holiday's quick thinking (a lot of people = every non-EVO on earth and everyone with nanites on earth, which is just everyone)

For the last time, stop using the "she's an extraordinary genius" argument because it was addressed multiple times now and means absolutely nothing here. Again, no one denies Holiday being a genius from the field of research she's credible working in. We know she's smart. The simple fact here is that Holiday's knowledge, credibility and intelligence doesn't come anywhere close to measuring up to the level of knowledge a character would be expected to have when speaking about entire alternate realities. Just being smart doesn't make everything you claim infallible.

>No Ben 10 scientist gives any limit on the amount of alternate dimensions, not even Paradox as already explained above.

Alternate timelines = alternate universes. So yes, Paradox is.

>Don't need a lot of evidence if your statement is clear-cut

Then it's too bad the statements, and contexts surrounding them, aren't clear cut like your trying to make them out to be here.

>Also does when it happened really matter? In the crossover it was revealed that Caesar built a Dimensional Disruptor, this is just backstory that happens to be dropped during the crossover which is completely canon to Gen Rex. Also generally universe-altering weapons such as the meta-nanites give people a higher intelligence rating than knowing how many parallel universes there are.

It very much does matter when it happens because when such an extraordinary claim like this NEVER pops up again at any other instance in the franchise, besides this crossover, it brings the consistency of it into question. Planck already talked about this above.

>This was an example of her working speed, not of her intelligence.

Yes but that is still very weak evidence to push for her suddenly rising to such levels of knowledge that she can accurately be aware of alternate universes through pure math. And then claim there are infinite numbers of them on top of that.

>Doctor Holiday has a very vast knowledge, she knows how to function as an astronaut and nanites in Gen Rex are a combination of (one of) the 3 highest-technological branches currently existing:

I dont think your understanding my point here. When I say "incredible knowledge", I mean knowledge that rises to the level of basically becoming Nigh-Omniscient since you arent just dealing with technological or mathimatical matters. Your literally becoming aware of entire whole existences parallel to your own, something thats massively beyond human comprehension in a verse. And Holiday definitely doesn't meet those standards, even with what she has done in Generator Rex.

>Also like I said before is infinite is accurate just like our own possible multiverse then why is it a big deal when she mentions infinite?

Because thats not how possible works. You need to prove that such theories are actual existing standards for your verse rather than speculate that they do. This is like saying any verse thats a Multiverse at all automatically runs on the Many Worlds Interpretation theory. You know, the highest level a Multiverse can become without being 2-A? Only a small handful of verses on this site have that, Dragon Ball Heroes/Xenoverse being one of them for example.

>I meant parallel universes already being established, it would be different if neither show had any allusion to parallel universes and suddenly there's infinite of them

Yes, but its like I said on this point. Being already established as a Multiverse and being already established as an infinite one are 2 different things. Ben 10 existing as a Multiverse before the crossover doesnt make Holiday's claim about it's size any more justified.

Im gonna ignore the author points because we already had the Author Statement Staff Thread

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

We still have the various evidence I showcased that proves that all timelines exist simultaneously, and the fact that nothing suggest that they dont + Paradox and all other characters never said anything implying that the paralell timelines will eventually reach infinite or that it increases with time. Paradox straight up says that all ad ininiftum timelines are equally real as the main timeline.
and other verses with infinite branching timelines are still treated as 2-A.

This doesnt change anything either, was addressed before and why people still bring this up as if it wasn't is beyond me.

Timelines existing before we actually reach that point in time isn't anything special. At all. Thats the basic function of timelines for any verse. Othewise time traveling into the future would literally be impossible if it didnt exist before it actually happens.

Paradox never says that ad infinitum timelines exist simultaneously as each other either, your taking things out of context. When saying they are "equally as real as the main timeline" that literally only means those different timelines are able to exist and aren't just pure future possibilities. Not that all of these timelines exist at exactly the same time as each other.

Also no, there are no other verses who get 2-A for infinite branching timelines as thats literally not what 2-A is. Your examples are purely misleading too.

Tangram's 2-A rating comes from her verse having flat out infinite universes, not expanding or anything. Her AP justification clearly says this:

"Multiverse level+ (Ruler and gatekeeper of an infinite amount of parallel worlds, by controlling Tangram one can freely change the rules of any and all the worlds and even create your own parallel world, casually retconned the events of the crossover)"

Chronos is the same way. No mention of infinitely expanding anything, its flat out infinite:

" Multiverse level+ (To Chronos compared to her own existence, the infinite timelines that exist were too small for her to perceive, as such she divided herself into infinite smaller parts to observe each of the infinite timelines. All the smaller parts are Chronos, having the same experiences, knowledge, power etc.)"

 

[Badrimoine2019]

@Kukui Hmmmm Does infinite branching Time lines in DBH verse are just pure future possibilities or they are really infinitely expending? Just asking .

 

[Dragomer]

They are really infinitely expending, there is even a statement about Demigra turning all the possibilities into reality or something like that so they are definitely real.

Honestly it's funny how similar Ben 10 and DBH are in term of cosmology.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

>Timelines existing before we actually reach that point in time isn't anything special. At all. Thats the basic function of timelines for any verse. Othewise time traveling into the future would literally be impossible if it didnt exist before it actually happens.

Paradox says that all timelines branched off from the main timeline, and 0 evidence suggest otherwise. Paradox did reference quantum mechanics, and according to it every single universe exist simultaneously. Tha'ts the fundamental principle of quantum mechanics' many world interpretation. Something that's able to exist isn't real, that's not what the word "real" means. You future children aren't real, until they actually exist.

In Dragon Ball, it's not possible to time travel to a timeline before it exists, which is why Dragon Ball isn't considered 2-A. Time travelling into the future isnt the same as time traveling into a future timeline,not even close.

>Also no, there are no other verses who get 2-A for infinite branching timelines as thats literally not what 2-A is. Your examples are purely misleading too.

Good thing Paradox never says that the timelines branch off infinitely, he never even used the word" branch" or "expand" in that entire episode. he says the amount of universe is infinite, not that it eventually will be. And again, he even says that all timelines branched off from the main timeline AFTER ben prime finds the omnitrix, which explains why they can go to whatever timeline right after Ben finds the omnitrix.

>Tangram's 2-A rating comes from her verse having flat out infinite universes, not expanding or anything. Her AP justification clearly says this:

This is flat out wrong. Every single time in the Toaru light novel the multiverse Tangram controls is mentioned, they either mention that they branch infinitely or that it expands infinitely. See for yourself. Her profile also mentions " infinitely expanding parallel worlds. " TWICE, at the top and bottom of her profile

>Chronos is the same way. No mention of infinitely expanding anything, its flat out infinite:

The only time infinite universes is ever mentioned in Chorno Clock is in this instance, can you not clearly see that she says that "the space-time continuum is an infinite long branch"'? 'You are flat out lying and beig dishonest and misleading at this point. That screenshot is the only evidence on her profile that there are infinite timelines.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

They are really infinitely expending, there is even a statement about Demigra turning all the possibilities into reality or something like that so they are definitely real.
Honestly it's funny how similar Ben 10 and DBH are in term of cosmology.

Nope, they are never stated to be infinitely expanind. It's stated the future can change in infinite ways, which doesnt mean that there will be infinite different futures. There isnt any evidence that all timelines branched off at the same time either. This was already brought up several times in this thread, nobody ever showcased that all timelines exist at the same time.

 

[Badrimoine2019]

Nope, they are never stated to be infinitely expanind. It's stated the future can change in infinite ways, which doesnt mean that there will be infinite different futures. There isnt any evidence that all timelines branched off at the same time either. This was already brought up several times in this thread, nobody ever showcased that all timelines exist at the same time.

so this is a pure future possibility? It's not like it's really happening?

 

[Dragomer]

Wrong, read the accepted DB cosmology thread.

Even in DBS, Pilaf say there are tons of world, not 'there could be a tons of world that don't actualy exist'.

Honestly at this point, i still haven't seen anything presented here that couldn't be also said for a lot of other 2-B verse such as DBH, i don't see how this warrant an upgrade for Ben 10 and not those other verse, especialy a 'infinitely above baseline 2-A' upgrade

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>Time travelling into the future isnt the same as time traveling into a future timeline,not even close.

You most certainly can travel into any point in the future before you actually reach that point in time. Thats literally what time travel in general is. It doesnt matter if it happens 100s, 1000s or millions of years in the future from where you are in the present. You can time travel there.

And using Dragon Ball as a counter argument to this point doesnt help you because their cosmology doesn't run off basic time traveling.

>Good thing Paradox never says that the timelines branch off infinitely, he never even used the word" branch" or "expand" in that entire episode. he says the amount of universe is infinite, not that it eventually will be

"Paradox says that all timelines branched off from the main timeline, and 0 evidence suggest otherwise."

Funny how you just said this and now your pivioting from it. Makes me take what you say even less seriously. Anyway, yes, he blatantly did say they branch off infinitely. Because thats what Ad-Infinitum is. Ad Infinitum =/= Flat out infinite for the 100th thousanth time.

>Her profile also mentions " infinitely expanding parallel worlds. " TWICE, at the bottom of her profile and at the top. I'm not sure if you are blind or just being dishonest at this point.

Your using a ******* character description as an argument. I quoted word for word what her AP justification is and it makes no mention of "infinitely expanding" anything. You don't like it? Make a CRT to downgrade her.

>The only time infinite universes is ever mentioned in Chorno Clock is in this instance, can you not clearly see that she says that "the space-time continuum is an infinite long branch"'? 'You are flat out lying and being extremily misleading at this point. That screenshot is the only evidence on her profile that there are infinite timelines.

See above for this too. Its quite hilarious that you acuse me of lying when im quoting right off of whats literally freaking listed on her AP description. Again, make a CRT to change it or you're the one whos lying here.

And the latter option is more likely if your going to be so desperate, ignore AP descriptions and go off of the character descriptions on the profiles to make an argument.

 

[Badrimoine2019]

Wrong, read the accepted DB cosmology thread.

Even in DBS, Pilaf say there are tons of world, not 'there could be a tons of world that don't actualy exist'.

and I desagree, that's just a future pissibility nothing more

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

>You most certainly can travel into any point in the future before you actually reach that point in time. Thats literally what time travel in general is. It doesnt matter if it happens 100s, 1000s or millions of years in the future from where you are in the present. You can time travel there.

Again traveling to the future from a timeline that already exists =//= traveling to a timeline that only exist in the future. I'm amazed how you aren't getting this. Nobody in Dragon Ball ever travels to a timeline before the events that causes it to be created happens, Ben 10 and DB cosmology do not work the same at all.

>Funny how you just said this and now your pivioting from it. Makes you take what you say even less seriously. Anyway, yes, he blatantly did say they branch off infinitely. Because thats what Ad-Infinitum is. Ad Infinitum =/= Flat out infinite for the 100th thousanth time.

I'm saying they all branched off at the same time, that doesnt mean that they keep branching off in infinite time, can you not tell the difference between the 2? Can you not tell the difference between something happening throughout infinite time and something happening only once? Ad infinitum does not mean "branching infinitely" at all, nor did Paradox ever say the word "branched" or expanded or anything the like in that episode, so no he did not blatantly say that.

>Your using a ******* character description as an argument. I quoted word for word what her AP justification is and it makes no mention of "infinitely expanding" anything. You don't like it? Make a CRT to downgrade her.

The acutal ******* light novel mentions timelines expanding infinitely several times, take a look already, can you not clearly see it says branching/ expanding 5 times?? Why would I downgrade her, when YOU are the one suggesting that branching infinitely =//= 2-A?? You make the thread.

>See above for this too. Its quite hilarious that you acuse me of lying when im quoting right off of whats literally freaking listed on her AP description. Again, make a CRT to change it or you're the one whos lying here.

In her AP description, they link that screenshot I showed, as in, they use the fact that she is above infinitely branching timelines as evidence of her being 2-A. You are actually ignoring the evidence they use to justify her being 2-A, and instead focus entirely on what is written on her AP description, saying you are being dishonest and lying is an understatement at this point. Since evidence doesnt matter to you, why would I make the CRT? You would just ignore that as well.

If I were to rate Alien X as 1-C and linked a video of Ben belching as the justifiqation, would you accept that as well? Since you obviously are ignoring everything that isn't mentioned in the AP description, including links linked in the AP description.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

Wrong, read the accepted DB cosmology thread.

Even in DBS, Pilaf say there are tons of world, not 'there could be a tons of world that don't actualy exist'.

Honestly at this point, i still haven't seen anything presented here that couldn't be also said for a lot of other 2-B verse such as DBH, i don't see how this warrant an upgrade for Ben 10 and not those other verse, especialy a 'infinitely above baseline 2-A' upgrade

How does Pilaf saying there are a tons of world prove that all worlds exist simultaneously or there are infinite of them? I read the accepted DB cosmology, and they dont mention either ever.

 

[Dragomer]

Wrong, read the accepted DB cosmology thread.

Even in DBS, Pilaf say there are tons of world, not 'there could be a tons of world that don't actualy exist'.

Honestly at this point, i still haven't seen anything presented here that couldn't be also said for a lot of other 2-B verse such as DBH, i don't see how this warrant an upgrade for Ben 10 and not those other verse, especialy a 'infinitely above baseline 2-A' upgrade

How does Pilaf saying there are a tons of world prove that all worlds exist simultaneously or there are infinite of them? I read the accepted DB cosmology, and they dont mention either ever.

The accepted cosmology thread litteraly say every possibility is a different timeline.

This whole thread is just the Ben 10 side pretending that basic 2-B verse stuff is somehow 2-A and it's getting boring.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>Again traveling to the future from a timeline that already exists =//= traveling to a timeline that only exist in the future. I'm amazed how you aren't getting this. Nobody in Dragon Ball ever travels to a timeline before the events that causes it to be created happens.

Because, again, Dragon Ball doesnt operate with normal time travel. And what? Theres no such thing as a "timeline that only exists in the future", that sounds entirely made up.

>I'm saying they all branched off at the same time, that doesnt mean that they keep branching off in infinite time, can you not tell the difference between the 2?

No because there literally IS NO difference. At all. Whether they branch off one by one or branch off at the same time doesnt matter. They are still branching off, which means they are not all flat out existing at once. Meaning, it's not infinite. Which is exactly what Ad-Infinitum is. To expand infinitely. I dont know how many times this needs to be repeated before you understand this.

>The acutal ******* light novel mentions timelines expanding infinitely several times, ******* take a look already, can you not clearly see it says branching/ expanding 5 times?? Why would I downgrade her, when YOU are the one suggesting that branching infinitely =//= 2-A??

• Sigh*

What is so hard to understand here? I dont care what the light novel says, im going right off what her AP justification says. Like we are supposed to. And in it, it flat out says "an infinite amount of parallel worlds" meaning this site doesnt treat them as branching expanding worlds but flat out infinite worlds existing all at once. Which is what 2-A is.

IF you claim the worlds are branching, then YOU need to be the one who downgrades her because thats not how we currently treat her.

>In her AP description, they link that screenshot I showed. You are actually ignoring what evidence they use to justify her being 2-A, and instead focus entirely on what is written on her AP description, saying you are being dishonest and lying is an understatement at this point.

Not my problem. Its the problem of whoever made her page and used insufficient evidence to support her 2-A tier and not have it fall in line with what the descritpion says. Again, if the justification is wrong like you say it is, downgrade her. Until then, what the justification says is what stays.

 

[Crabwhale]

Well looks like this revision is going to be put on hold now.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

The accepted cosmology thread litteraly say every possibility is a different timeline.

This whole thread is just the Ben 10 side pretending that basic 2-B verse stuff is somehow 2-A and it's getting boring.

Except that all posibilities being pre-existing timelines was rejected as mentioned several times in this thread , which you are still ignoring.

>Theres no such thing as a "timeline that only exists in the future", that sounds entirely made up.

The timeline Gwen created in episode "Time heals" is a timeline that Paradox knew about before Gwen even went back in time to create it in the first place. Which is why he warned her before she created it and informed her about the timeline after she does.

He also knew of the timeline where the Trans-dimensional beast detoriated the Earth 200 years into the future. And no, Paradox doesnt know about all timelines, nor is he pshycic or has cosmic awareness.

Diagon travelled from a paralel timeline to the main timeline 1000 years ago after conquering 100 paralel timelines. All paralel timelines branched off the main timeline after Ben finds the omnitrix in ca. 2007. So Diagon came to the main timeline 1000 years before Ben found the timeline meaning before his timeline or the 100 timelines he conquered would even branch off. Which is explained by superpositions in Quantum mechanics' many world interpretation, that Paradox references. Every quantum outcome exist simultaneously. That is the fundamental principle of quantum mechanics.

>No because there literally IS NO difference. At all. Whether they branch off one by one or branch off at the same time doesnt matter.

So you are saying that even though they all branch off at once, they dont all exist at once???

>What is so hard to understand here? I dont care what the light novel says,

Yes, so you dont care about evidence? Why would her profile mentions twice that the worlds are branching, if that isnt actually what is happening?

>Not my problem. Its the problem of whoever made her page and used insufficient evidence to support her 2-A tier and not have it fall in line with what the descritpion says.

Not how it works, if 2 profiles use the same reasoning for being 2-A, and you are the one who has an issue with it, you are the one who needs to make a downgrade thread and not me.

 

[EpicCookie12342]

Um timelines =/= dimensions. Dagon conquered 100 dimensions not timelines

Like how the Null Void is an alternate dimension, not an alternate timeline

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

Azmuth refers to their timeline as a dimension :" He has enslaved a hundred dimensions and now seeks to enslave ours" Azmuth doenst make a distinction between the dimensions he has enslaved, and their timeline, clearly implying they are the same type.

Dimension 23 is also clearly a paralel timeline, even though it's called a dimension several times in episode "Store 23". Paradox also tells No Watch Ben in episode "And then there were none" " there are many Ben Tennysons across those dimensions" when he informs him about the alternative timelines and alternative Ben's. Dimension can mean timeline, depending on the context.

 

[EpicCookie12342]

Azmuth refers to their timeline as a dimension :" He has enslaved a hundred dimensions and now seeks to enslave ours" Azmuth doenst make a distinction between the dimensions he has enslaved, and their timeline, clearly implying they are the same type.
Dimension 23 is also clearly a paralel timeline, even though it's called a dimension several times in episode "Store 23". Paradox also tells No Watch Ben in episode "And then there were none" " there are many Ben Tennysons across those dimensions" when he informs him about the alternative timelines and alternative Ben's. Dimension can mean timeline, depending on the context.

Fair, although you proved my point he wasn't talking about timelines he was talking about Universes. Azmuth was talking about the Universe they were in not their timeline and that Dagon enslaved 100 others

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

In this case, it doesnt matter, because Diagon and the 100 universes he enslaved did not come from the main timeline.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>The timeline Gwen created in episode "Time heals" is a timeline that Paradox knew about before Gwen even went back in time to create it in the first place. He also knew of the timeline where the Trans-dimensional beast detoriated the Earth 200 years into the future. And no, Paradox doesnt know about all timelines, nor is he pshycic or has cosmic awareness.

You're acting like precognition and clairvoyance aren't a thing. This just sounds like Paradox knowing what the timelines will end up becoming based on past actions before they are changed.

Also, this is starting to look more like Gwen and the Trans Dimensional beast just creating alternate futures, which =/= creating an entire timeline. A timeline contains an entire past, present and future of it's world within it, Gwen and the Trans-Dimensional beast seem to have just simply made alternate futures of those events. You can't have a literal timeline inside of another timeline.

>Diagon travelled from a paralel timeline to the main timeline 1000 years ago after conquering 100 paralel timelines. All paralel timelines branched off the main timeline after Ben finds the omnitrix in ca. 2007. So Diagon came to the main timeline 1000 years before Ben found the timeline meaning before his timeline or the 100 timelines he conquered would even branch off.

This, again, just simply means that Ben 10's Multiverse was a 2-C one in the beginning but started expanding into a 2-B one after Ben got the Omnitrix. And by expanding, it specifically means timelines from Ben's timeline, not the timelines Diagon conquered.

>So you are saying that even though they all branch off at once, they dont all exist at once???

They certainly wouldn't be infinite thats for sure. Again, you cant reach infinity just by stacking a bunch of alternate worlds on top of each other, either your infinite or your not. No in-betweens. The fact they are branching at all again means these timelines have a beginning (Ben's main timeline), which also again goes against the point of them being infinite.

In fact, how can infinite timelines even stem off from a single one?

>Yes, so you dont care about evidence? Why would her profile mentions twice that the worlds are branching, if that isnt actually what is happening?

Again, thats not my problem. The Attack Potency justification on her page outright says that those infinite worlds exist simultaneously, it mentions nothing about them expanding. If the novel mentions otherwise, then you need to make a CRT to downgrade her for going off of faulty evidence.

>Not how it works, if 2 profiles use the same reasoning for being 2-A, and you are the one who has an issue with it, you are the one who needs to make a downgrade thread and not me.

Thats entirely the other way around. You keep claiming they arent 2-A, and im quoting word for word of whats clearly written on their pages that does make them 2-A. But if the evidence doesnt mean 2-A, then its not on me to downgrade them. Its on you to if your going to continue going against what their pages actually say.

 

[Greenshifter]

Euhm do we keep going with this thread or put it on hold? I'll respond to Kukui's arguments if it's not on hold but I'm having a feeling not a lot is left to say about Holiday's statement. The cosmology in Ben 10 is very weird since you can rewrite one timeline while also having multiple timelines which do not get affected by this, something to my knowledge only DC and Arrowverse do so it might look like Dragon Ball but it's probably not the same.

@Door I'm quite sure that Dagon's universe is not an alternative past timeline since I think all possible timelines in Ben 10 come into existence after Ben gets the Omnitrix. That's like the entire point, pretty sure this is already accepted btw since there is a distinction between timelines and dimensions on Diago's and Maltruant's page so it's more likely that Diagon's universe is outside the time stream like the Null Void and like Ledgerdomain (where time goes faster) and like Rex's universe which is confirmed to have a different history and like Dimension 12 where time doesn't flow, all of that shouldn't happen in alternate timelines. My rule of thumb is that an alternate timeline (whether it's a possible future or not) has a Mr. Smoothy while an alternate dimension doesn't.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

>A timeline contains an entire past, present and future of it's world within it, Gwen and the Trans-Dimensional beast seem to have just simply made alternate futures of those events. You can't have a literal timeline inside of another timeline.

He doesnt have precognition or clairvoyance, there is a lot of things Paradox didnt know about, including things that happens in the main timeline only.. Paradox didnt know that Eon and his minions could hide inside omnitrix, which they could due to them being alternative Bens, implying Paradox didnt know that Eon and his minions were Bens. He didnt know anything about No Watch Bens' timeline, heck he didnt even know about the timeline where Hugo didnt become a trans-dimensional beast, which happens in the main timeline and was the entire plot of episode "Paradox". And he was trying for years to stop the beast or prevent it from existing altogether.

The timeline Gwen created also has a past and a future, everything that happens in the main timeline until Ben and Kevin tried to hack the omnitrix also happened in the timeline Gwen created. That is how she created that timeline in the first place, by going back to the past and stopping them from hacking the omnitrix. Gwen's timeline isnt a future timeline, it's a paralell present timeline, unlike the timeline where Paradox failed to stop the transdimensional beast 200 years in the future. Gwen at the end of the episode even goes back in time in the timeline she created, proving it definitely has a past, present and a future.

The timeline Gwen created isnt inside another timeline, it's its own seperate timeline.

>This, again, just simply means that Ben 10's Multiverse was a 2-C one in the beginning but started expanding into a 2-B one after Ben got the Omnitrix. And by expanding, it specifically means timelines from Ben's timeline, not the timelines Diagon conquered.

Paradox does not make a distinction between Diagon's enslaved timelines and other paralel timelines + Paradox knew of Diagon's enslaved dimensions before Diagon was even introduced in the show. Yet Paradox was shocked and completely unable to even comprehend how a timeline with no omnitrix like No Watch Ben's timeline could even exist. This heavily implies that every timeline Paradox and Vilgax know of, such as the timelines Diagon has enslaved, have an omnitrix-wielder, meaning all of Diagon's enslaved timelines are paralell Ben timelines.

Otherwise, Paradox and Vilgax would not be surprised about No Watch Ben's timeline not having an omnitrix, nor would they straight up say multiple times that his timeline is the only timeline without an omnitrix.

The Anihilaargh also only created 1 universe, and it has been stated that no other universe existed before the main universe, so Diagon's 100 universes could not exist before the main universe nor was it created among it. It branched along with all other parallel timelines, when Ben found the omnitrix.

>They certainly wouldn't be infinite thats for sure.

In fact, how can infinite timelines even stem off from a single one?

They dont stack a bunch of alternate worlds on top of each other, and Paradox clearly say that they all branched off from the main timeline, he doesnt imply at all that only some of them do. Infinite timeliens can stem off from a single one the same way 1 character can create or destroy infinite ones at once. Such as the 2 characters I mentioned before. Saint Seiya also has infinite universes that branch off based on different desciion a character makes. Yet the verse is still 1-C.

And again, according to quantum mechanics, which Paradox references, every quantum outcome, in this case universes, exist simultaneously.

Also, like you correctly said, all timelines have a beginning, and so does time itself as we see in the last episode of the series. The year negative infinity does not exist in any timeline. Time also has an ending, as we see when Vilgax erases all the timelines. So how could "infinite timestream" be interpreted as "time is or will be infinite", when we know that isnt the case for any timeline?

> The Attack Potency justification on her page outright says that those infinite worlds exist simultaneously, it mentions nothing about them expanding.

Yes, them existing simlutaneously is why she is treated as 2-A in the first place, and you need to stop ignoring the link she has in her AP justification.

>Thats entirely the other way around. You keep claiming they arent 2-A, and im quoting word for word of whats clearly written on their pages that does make them 2-A.

I never once claimed they weren't 2-A ,nice strawman. You kept saying that no other verse is 2-A for having infinitely branching timelines, and I showed you 2 verses where that is very much the case, nothing else. im not trying to downgrade them at all.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

@Greenshifter

Yes they all come into existance after Ben gets the omnitrix, but as I said before, due to how quantum mechanics super-positions works, every quantum outcome, in this case universes, exist simultaneously. Paradox references quantum mechanics to No Watch Ben.

Diagon's page mentions he invaded "this dimension", which in this case means the main timeline, and not something like the Null Void.

Vilgax stated that after he found No Watch Ben timeline , he knew there was a way to erase every omnitrix-wielder from the multiverse. Paradox was straight up shocked when he found a timeline without an omnitrix. They both stated that the NWB timeline is the only timeline without an omnitrix, which heavily implies that Diagon and all 100 universes he enslaved has an omnitrix, because they both already knew about Diagon and his enslaved dimensions

 

[Crabwhale]

All revisions are being put on lockdown due to the forum move. I highly recommend you take this up in message walls if you wish to continue.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>Paradox didnt know that Eon and his Ben minions could hide inside omnitrix, which they could due to them being alternative Bens, implying Paradox didnt know that Eon and his Ben minions were Bens. He didnt know anything about No Watch Bens' timeline, heck he didnt even know about the timeline where Hugo didnt become a trans-dimensional beast, which happens in the main timeline and was the entire plot of episode "Paradox". Why would Paradox even know Gwen was about to change the past in the first place, unless the timeline already existed before she created it?

Again, stop acting like precognition or clairvoyance aren't a thing here. Paradox knowing Gwen was about to change the past doesn't mean he "had to know" about her newly created timeline beforehand. Precog can easily show him that Gwen was going to travel back in time to do what she wanted, which would by common sense have an impact.

Occams Razor, he forsaw Gwen using time-travel. And the fact that he wasn't aware of No-Watch Ben's timeline and Hugo's timeline further supports that him having to know about Gwen's timeline prior to her time-travel is just unfounded headcanon.

>Paradox does not make a distinction between Diagon's enslaved timelines and other paralel timelines + Paradox knew of Diagon before Diagon was even introduced in the show. Yet Paradox was shocked and completely unable to even comprehend how a timeline like No Watch Ben's timeline could even exist, because there was no omnitrix in it.

You do realize that you arguing Diagon's timelines are the same as the same as other parallel ones only further supports my claim right? That Ben 10's Multiverse was just originally a 2-C sized Multiverse and after Ben got the Omnitrix, it started expanding until it became a 2-B one. Simple as that.

>Paradox clearly say that they all branched off from the main timeline, he doesnt imply at all that only some of them do.

I never said only some do.

>Infinite timeliens can stem off from a single one the same way 1 character can create or destroy infinite ones at once.

This is such a big false equivalence I can cut it with a knife. 1 character creating or destroying infinite universes just means they're creating something infinite at once, it's not "branching from them". Its being created/destroyed all at once/over finite time.

A single timeline cant create an infinite amount of ones naturally as its obviously a finite sized structure. Again, you can never reach infinity by branching. Ever.

>Saint Seiya also has infinitely universes that branch off based on different desciion a character makes. Yet the verse is still 1-C.

The number of universes means absolutely nothing once hitting tier 1 as it deals with higher-dimensions, which aren't effected by any given number of parallel universes in the lower dimensions. A 2-B or 2-C verse could become as high as 1-B if they have the qualified number of higher dimensions. And in Saint Seiya's case, they have enough higher dimensions to become 1-C. Parallel Universes doesnt matter at that point.

>And again, according to quantum mechanics, which Paradox references, every quantum outcome, in this case universes, exist simultaneously.

A reference and something 100% existing are 2 different things. Also, he never said they exist simutaneously but just that they exist.

>So how could "infinite timestream" be interpreted as "time is or will be infinite", when we know that isnt the case?

This point literally only helps me....

>Yes, them existing simlutaneously is why she is treated as 2-A in the first place, and you need to stop ignoring the link she has in her AP justification.

I will ignore it because the AP justification written on her page is what matters. And it says "infinite amount of worlds", meaning shes 2-A under our standards. If the link says the opposite, then she just isn't 2-A.

>You kept saying that no other verse is 2-A for having infinitely branching timelines, and I showed you 2 verses where that is very much the case

But they aren't the case though. Because the pages themselves disagree with you. The AP justifications arent saying infinitely branching timelines, they say infinite universes flat out. So again, if the evidence says otherwise then they aren't actual 2-As. Meaning no, we dont give verses 2-A here for having infinitely branching universes.

And any verse, like these 2, who are rated as such need to be downgraded.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Also, this is going to be my last reply to this thread before the upcoming forum move. It's pointless to keep going as ive made my stance perfectly clear that I disagree with this entire upgrade.

As have others here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think Kukui makes sense tbh.

 

[Greenshifter]

Yeah it's pretty pointless to continue this now. I do have some stuff for Holiday that I didn't mention before which doesn't really have to do with her intelligence and the distinction between timelines and dimensions should also stay since this thread basically builds on the difference already being established so technically if you want to change that then the opposition would need to make the CRT. I will most likely make a blog to make everything more clear however and then make a new thread on the new forum.

 

[Doorinmyhouse]

I think Kukui makes sense tbh.

Paradox stated twice that all timelines branched off from the main timeline and we were even shown that they all branched simultaneously. ProfessorKukui's counter argument is" It's not possible for infinite universes to branch off from in 1 universe in finite amount of time", meaning he ignores what is stated and shown. Explain to me how that makes sense? infinite branching unvierses from 1 universe in finite time also happens in verses, such as Marvel, Digimon, Sonic etc.

So by his logic, those verses should be downgraded. His counter-argument to Paradox saying that " all parallel timelines are as real as our timeline, but most not leak into ours" is that Paradox meant that not-yet-existing timelines are as real as existing timelines, even tho that is not implied at all. Something cannot be real before it exist, this is basic logic, and saying otherwise does not make sense.

Paradox also never once states the amount of timeline increases by 1 at a time. And of course, time does have a beginning and an ending for all timelines, infinite years are not a thing in Ben 10, as proven in 2 episodes, so Maltruant could not have refered to time itself or anything other than the amount of timelines when he described the time-stream as being infinite.