Infinite universe DB Redux

[Chariot190]

The rest do matter because its clearly shown what we see is purely visual.

Dude, the rest are visual abstractions, this is the SINGLE time it isn't. The rest don't mean shit, they're the visuals with issues, not this.

The neutral zone effects everything because it literally keeps them separate, via being higher dimensional which is what ALL universe separation comes down to.

And that doesn't effect the size, ie, it doesn't effect anything.

They aren't translucent walls, the barriers are literally the fabric of space and time which we do NOT see.

We can see them, quite literally, as the giant dragon flashbang goes off and the light cascades off the dimensional walls.
And yes, translucent walls, dimensional walls yes, but all the same.

We only "see" it when characters break reality which doesn't even appear as a barrier visually just break space pretty much.

And why are you assuming if Beerus punched it, it wouldn't crack like glass?

And again, its clearly not accurate because we don't see the other realms. So its not accurate.

It is the single most accurate instance in franchise history.
It's the only time we actually see it.
You're quite literally, taking visual abstractions, to argue that the non-abstraction, is an abstraction, shit is wild man.

Its you who needs to give evidence that it IS actually accurate by showing us where all the other realms are lmfao, spacetime barriers aren't "translucent walls".

Except here, and in numerous other media. Take it up with Toei, whether you like it or not, we quite literally see that's what they are, and how they're depicted.

Except the realms aren't pocket realities, they are full on universe sized spacetimes, including the kaioshin realms, so if we don't see the afterlife which is literally bigger than the living realm, why is a sphere with one big galaxy shown on it accurate?

They are? They all are? Ignoring you semantic nitpicking, theyre enclosed spaces in a higher one. U7 and 6, are the big. And **** for all we know most of what we see could be the afterlife, we already know that shit has space and stars and what not.

And one big galaxy, yeah dbz has massive galaxies, what of it?

This does not change that this is what we see, in the single time we know shit ain't being abstracted. It takes precedence over everything.

Its not. And again, the universes appearing finite literally doesn't matter since its from the neutral space, and universal separation always is separate higher dimensions, a 5th axis.

This is literally not how it works, actual VSBW clouding judgement here.
This would not magically make it look finite, and it would not excuse the fact we can see into it, and that it is demonstrably finite.

No not really it wouldn’t even be consistent to say that the universe looks exactly like that. As it’s contradicted in the actual show.

It's the sole time we actually see it dog.

It would be impossible to LITERALLY have two infinity’s on screen at the same time so some artistic liberties have to be taken when showing them off.

This is a self fufilling argument. You're assuming they're infinite to begin with, when the very argument is that "hey theyre blatantly not infinite here" to argue it.
That ain't gonna work for obvious reasons.

And artistic liberties? They could have done literally anything else, why pick the single way to prove they're finite? Enclosed spheres, in real time, not abstracted, interacting with a character's actions in real time.

I don't wanna sound mean but... Calling it that is just kinda cope ngl.

The scene not only has to show us the universes but the neutral zone. So it’s going to look finite even though it’s not.

No? Why is everyone assuming that's how it works, it doesn't, they're still just universes embedded in said space, they don't look different when viewed from outside, especially as we can see into them and they evidently finite contents.

It wouldn't "look finite" unless it was, if it was infinite, it'd look infinite. You're talking about HDE stuff yet acting like the moment you enter a zone stuff looks infinitely smaller. Worst part is that scene is from a 3D perspective

See now THAT's an abstraction.,

Also to add on to my point, since the universes are already separate spacetimes, this means they are already built up of uncountably infinite 3D objects anyways, so they are already infinite in size because they are spacetimes. So they would look finite anyways when shown in a space that separates them, its literally a given. In our tiering system right here states that the distance between two universes will always be across a higher dimensional structures, its going to look finite no matter what.

This doesn't work when the source material literally shows otherwise

if you think that this a literal representations, then the universe, accepted as 2-C(aka 3 space times) wouldn't make sense, you can't zoom out of space times and see them physically

I mean, it is, in fact, a literal representation. It is what it is, what that says for the verse as a whole ain't my concern, I'm just saying it's blatantly not infinite because it objectively isn't.

 

[Chariot190]

There's a map of the DB macrocosm and we can literally see the Snake Way with the naked eye. If we're taking the visual depiction literally for everything, then the universes in DB would be smaller than our solar system, lol.

Yeah, a map, is not the same as us literally seeing it unabstracted.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

these are his words.

Those aren't his words.
Why're you like this? Are you purposefully being dense to upset me?

Wanna know what his words were?

で 宇宙の中心まで行きたいとかいう件についてだが… バカか！銀河だけでも ばか広いのにそんな銀河がとんでもない数あるくらい―宇宙は広いのだぞ！行けるか行けるわけない行けてたまるか！

(translation):

"So, about that whole wanting to go to the center of the universe thing... You're an idiot! This galaxy alone is ridiculously big, and the universe is so vast that there are an indescribable number of such galaxies! Can you go? Of course you can't go! There's no way you could go!

(paraphasing):

Traveling to the center of the universe is impossible because of how vast the universe is.

(i.e.):

Yes, Jaco confirmed the center's existence.

Get your head out of your ass and pay attention to the media you're analyzing.
Quit making it harder for others.

 

[Chariot190]

Those aren't his words.
Why're you like this? Are you purposefully being dense to upset me?

Wanna know what his words were?

(translation):

(paraphasing):

(i.e.):

Get your head out of your ass and pay attention to the media you're analyzing.
Quit making it harder for others.

Bro implies even just going to the center of a normal ass galaxy is too much on the fly, like yeah wonder why he's saying that on an exponentially bigger scale ain't doable
dont be rude tho

 

[GarrixianXD]

@Chariot190 Your attitude here has been inconducive for a civilised and fair discussion. No drama or anything but you're a staff member, I expect you to know better.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Those aren't his words.
Why're you like this? Are you purposefully being dense to upset me?

Wanna know what his words were?

(translation):

(paraphasing):

(i.e.):

Get your head out of your ass and pay attention to the media you're analyzing.
Quit making it harder for others.

I agree with your points but let’s simmer down please.

 

[TiltedFN]

Dude, the rest are visual abstractions, this is the SINGLE time it isn't. The rest don't mean shit, they're the visuals with issues, not this.

Again, its still not accurate in the slightest because the macrocosm is made up of multiple spacetimes, nothing stops this from being another visual representation.

And that doesn't effect the size, ie, it doesn't effect anything.

It does, because it will look finite no matter what as I said already.

We can see them, quite literally, as the giant dragon flashbang goes off and the light cascades off the dimensional walls.
And yes, translucent walls, dimensional walls yes, but all the same.

Those are not dimensional barriers lmao, and like I said, that wouldn't even matter at all considering its just visuals.

And why are you assuming if Beerus punched it, it wouldn't crack like glass?

YOU need to prove that because that implies that the universes are physical and not spacetimes which has been argued countless times, its wrong, we are literally shown otherwise, the universes are spacetimes, are we really going back to square 1?

It is the single most accurate instance in franchise history.
It's the only time we actually see it.
You're quite literally, taking visual abstractions, to argue that the non-abstraction, is an abstraction, shit is wild man.

Again, ill keep saying this, it doesn't matter since it doesn't accurately depict all the realms in its entirety, so its not accurate. Theres literally nothing else to say here, you just keep saying because its in real time or whatever that its 100 percent the real deal and the universes actually look like that completely accurate.

Except here, and in numerous other media. Take it up with Toei, whether you like it or not, we quite literally see that's what they are, and how they're depicted.

Not accurate, we see universes in zeno's realms also, which differ from what we see in the u6 arc. And thats real time lol

They are? They all are? Ignoring you semantic nitpicking, theyre enclosed spaces in a higher one. U7 and 6, are the big. And **** for all we know most of what we see could be the afterlife, we already know that shit has space and stars and what not.

Lmao so the spacetimes are in that BIG galaxy thats depicted to be the entire universe? Prove that. And you saying this raises a lot of questions and would unironically upgrade U7

And one big galaxy, yeah dbz has massive galaxies, what of it?

Because it doesn't show all the realms, thats what, the universe isnt one big super galaxy, its a macrocosm.

This does not change that this is what we see, in the single time we know shit ain't being abstracted. It takes precedence over everything.

This is literally not how it works, actual VSBW clouding judgement here.
This would not magically make it look finite, and it would not excuse the fact we can see into it, and that it is demonstrably finite.

Yes IT IS HOW IT WORKS!! It would look finite since they are SEPARATED BY A HIGHER DIMENSION!!

This doesn't work when the source material literally shows otherwise

You ignoring this is crazy, our whole tiering system literally debunks you on this. It is how it works, it would, "magically appear finite" since you view it from a 5th axis.

 

[Chariot190]

@Chariot190 Your attitude here has been inconducive for a civilised and fair discussion. No drama or anything but you're a staff member, I expect you to know better.

I have done quite literally nothing wrong. Arguing and debating shit, on a forum dedicated to that, is to be expected.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

dont be rude tho

Though your points make sense but let’s simmer down please.

Apologies.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Those aren't his words.
Why're you like this? Are you purposefully being dense to upset me?

Wanna know what his words were?

(translation):

(paraphasing):

(i.e.):

Get your head out of your ass and pay attention to the media you're analyzing.
Quit making it harder for others.

You left caps lock on

I remember you saying that you don't know Japanese, so i don't know exactly if your translation is correct, but at no point did he confirm anything, he just said that there is no such place.

This is Bulma's assumption about what she thinks of the universe (the central statement she made about the earth being at the edge), which is literally refuted by Jaco, where we can see that he calls her crazy and refutes that it's impossible, even he doesn't know where the center is.

 

[RenderGK]

Using the visual test is saying that the universe is 3c, or 3-A, since nothing is shown other than a galaxy, and the other dimensions do not exist, and well they all share space-time since they are not seen either.

The argument for this is wrong, even the universe of Toriyama's map appears in the Manga when showing universe 10 literally

 

[GarrixianXD]

I have done quite literally nothing wrong. Arguing and debating shit, on a forum dedicated to that, is to be expected.

I'm not saying you did, just perhaps lessen your attitude a bit.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I'm not going back and forth with you anymore, Luffy. I'm moving on.

 

[Omegabronic]

Using the visual test is saying that the universe is 3c, or 3-A, since nothing is shown other than a galaxy, and the other dimensions do not exist, and well they all share space-time since they are not seen either.

The argument for this is wrong, even the universe of Toriyama's map appears in the Manga when showing universe 10 literally

btw, about this point specifically, no, the Tori map CANNOT be what the universe look like, it is IMPOSSIBLE with how horrendlously contradictory it is to EVERYTHING we know about the cosmology, infinite universe arguments aside, this point specifically i can't stress how much i am against

 

[RenderGK]

btw, about this point specifically, no, the Tori map CANNOT be what the universe look like, it is IMPOSSIBLE with how horrendlously contradictory it is to EVERYTHING we know about the cosmology, infinite universe arguments aside, this point specifically i can't stress how much i am against

although that does not mean that it appears as a literal representation of the universe.

By showing another universe, I am simply saying that if you take the visual as it is seen you are making a mistake.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I'm not going back and forth with you anymore, Luffy. I'm moving on.

All right, I'll continue from here, even Shenlong who is omniscient doesn't know where all the Dragon spheres are and said that the universe is vast, that's not a good refutation of the universe not being infinite at all, mention of Bulma doesn't refute anything, in fact she herself is refuted.

 

[marosuke]

No problem with the translation.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

All right, I'll continue from here, even Shenlong who is omniscient doesn't know where all the Dragon spheres are and said that the universe is vast, that's not a good refutation of the universe not being infinite at all, mention of Bulma doesn't refute anything, in fact she herself is refuted.

He's not omniscient. He just has cosmic awareness. Honestly this would either be a pretty bad anti feat for his cosmic awareness or just suggest it has a limited range.

 

[Chariot190]

Again, its still not accurate in the slightest because the macrocosm is made up of multiple spacetimes, nothing stops this from being another visual representation.

The very fact it isn't. It's the sole time it isn't.

It does, because it will look finite no matter what as I said already.

No it wouldn't, where are you even getting this from?

Those are not dimensional barriers lmao, and like I said, that wouldn't even matter at all considering its just visuals.

Then I guess the verse ain't even 2-C then.
And visuals?

Why is the very non visual light, cascading off the alleged "visual" walls?

YOU need to prove that because that implies that the universes are physical and not spacetimes which has been argued countless times, its wrong, we are literally shown otherwise, the universes are spacetimes, are we really going back to square 1?

Apparently given you don't think the blatant dimensional walls exist.

Again, ill keep saying this, it doesn't matter since it doesn't accurately depict all the realms in its entirety, so its not accurate. Theres literally nothing else to say here, you just keep saying because its in real time or whatever that its 100 percent the real deal and the universes actually look like that completely accurate.

Yes, that just means the funny maps, the literal other abstractions, and more, aren't accurate, and the universe, in its actuality, is what we see.
And dude, Shenron literally interacts with it, as we see it. Is him doing that imaginary too?

Not accurate, we see universes in zeno's realms also, which differ from what we see in the u6 arc. And thats real time lol

Not the main universes?

Not to mention, that's a tremendous false equivalence, what we see, in that scene, is the universe, as it is, as it exists, not abstracted, nothing. The single tme we see Universe 7, as it is, as it it exists, and we even see it interact with a character on screen.

Lmao so the spacetimes are in that BIG galaxy thats depicted to be the entire universe? Prove that. And you saying this raises a lot of questions and would unironically upgrade U7

Not what I said, at all. Do not strawman.

I've said no less than 3 times, that just because we can't make out these miniscule in the grand scheme of things enclosed spaces, in a verse that, in said very scene, shows dimensions simply being separated by transparent dimensional walls, does not mean they aren't there. Like the after life? For all we know that's most of what we're seeing, we know there's space and stars and what not in there. None of that changes that what we see there, is the sole time it isn't abstracted. It's depicted as it exists, assuming it must look a certain way is kinda ****** when, by your own admission, 99% of depictions inconsistent or non-literal.

Because it doesn't show all the realms, thats what, the universe isnt one big super galaxy, its a macrocosm.

And that can still be the case, whatever it might be, we see what we see, that's Universe 7.

Yes IT IS HOW IT WORKS!! It would look finite since they are SEPARATED BY A HIGHER DIMENSION!!

They're embedded in a higher dimension. They'd look as they are.

You ignoring this is crazy, our whole tiering system literally debunks you on this. It is how it works, it would, "magically appear finite" since you view it from a 5th axis.

We are LITERALLY viewing it from the same perspective as everything else in that arc, a normal perspective.
And "our", dude, default assumptions don't mean much if the source itself doesn't abide by it.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

He's not omniscient. He just has cosmic awareness.

This shows that your intelligence is superior to Bulma's, but anyway, thanks for rephrasing my little sentence.

 

[Robo432343]

bro if you disagree with the universe being infinite then the Low 1-C rating for dragon ball is wrong

 

[TiltedFN]

bro if you disagree with the universe being infinite then the Low 1-C rating for dragon ball is wrong

No its, not, that has nothing to do with literally anything.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

No? Why is everyone assuming that's how it works, it doesn't, they're still just universes embedded in said space, they don't look different when viewed from outside, especially as we can see into them and they evidently finite contents.

It wouldn't "look finite" unless it was, if it was infinite, it'd look infinite. You're talking about HDE stuff yet acting like the moment you enter a zone stuff looks infinitely smaller. Worst part is that scene is from a 3D perspective

Ignoring the implications of "it should look infinite," these quotes from DontTalkDT and the Tiering System FAQ might be relevant.

In that regard it is important to consider that, by its nature, it is not possible to accurately depict 5 dimensional space. As such depictions of the multiverse are usually not to be understood as accurate representation of the distance between the universes, but rather just qualitative analogies of the multiverse's structure.

depicting 5D space in a way that conserves size is just pretty hard.

Yeah, the problem with visual depictions is that you have to violate size in some way if you want to show 5D space in a 2D/3D image.

 

[Chariot190]

Ignoring the implications of "it should look infinite," these quotes from DontTalkDT and the Tiering System FAQ might be relevant.

Yeah but I ain't talking about depicting neutral space, I'm talking about depicting the universe, as a bunch of galaxies and whatnot enclosed in a dimensional wall that just so happens to be uni sized that we can see through, all happening without abstractions, with said uni even interacting, in real time, with a character proving, that how we see it in that instance isn't a mere visual abstraction.

Neutral zone legit doesn't effect here.

 

[Ednaxel2]

At least 36 universes via size Whis confirmed

 

[TiltedFN]

Then I guess the verse ain't even 2-C then.
And visuals?

Why is the very non visual light, cascading off the alleged "visual" walls?

This is literally just the light super shenron is emitting, this has nothing to do with anything, and like I said, we aren't going to see the dimensional barriers because its literally just the fabric of space, also the different spacetimes are not visible from that representation because its just a visual. And yes the macrocosms are 2-C.

Apparently given you don't think the blatant dimensional walls exist.

dimensional walls do exist, thats what separates the realms obviously, we have seen them broken before, gotenks, super buu, gogeta and broly, even vegeta did it. But what you're saying about how these dimensional walls, are "translucent" and beerus can, "crack it like glass if he punches one of the universe", makes no sense at all and is backed up by nothing.

Yes, that just means the funny maps, the literal other abstractions, and more, aren't accurate, and the universe, in its actuality, is what we see.
And dude, Shenron literally interacts with it, as we see it. Is him doing that imaginary too?

Shenron doesn't interact with them at all, the light shining literally proves nothing lmao.

Not the main universes?

Not to mention, that's a tremendous false equivalence, what we see, in that scene, is the universe, as it is, as it exists, not abstracted, nothing. The single tme we see Universe 7, as it is, as it it exists, and we even see it interact with a character on screen.

Lmao the universes in zeno's realms are the main universes, we see 12 of them in the manga also, and in real time, take that as you may because we still don't know the nature of his dimension at all, point is, that these are not accurate depictions and it has varies.

Not what I said, at all. Do not strawman.

I've said no less than 3 times, that just because we can't make out these miniscule in the grand scheme of things enclosed spaces, in a verse that, in said very scene, shows dimensions simply being separated by transparent dimensional walls, does not mean they aren't there. Like the after life? For all we know that's most of what we're seeing, we know there's space and stars and what not in there. None of that changes that what we see there, is the sole time it isn't abstracted. It's depicted as it exists, assuming it must look a certain way is kinda ****** when, by your own admission, 99% of depictions inconsistent or non-literal.

No, such a drastic take needs to be defended by you with actual evidence, not just because you feel like its the case, its not shown on screen, or backed up by anything, so its clearly not right.

And that can still be the case, whatever it might be, we see what we see, that's Universe 7.

No it cant be the case because it makes no sense, it makes more sense thats its not an actual depiction of the universe because you kind of cant depict a macrocosm with separate spacetimes while showing it all on screen, just because of how spacetimes work, especially in dragon ball. So its not accurate.

They're embedded in a higher dimension. They'd look as they are.

They are separated by the higher dimensional axis, so they can be perceived as finite from the outside, which is what we see, from the neutral zone, what separates them

We are LITERALLY viewing it from the same perspective as everything else in that arc, a normal perspective.
And "our", dude, default assumptions don't mean much if the source itself doesn't abide by it.

What do you mean a, "normal perspective", and the default assumptions do matter because the show doesn't contradict it whatsoever. You're just ignoring the entire thing.

 

[RedReaper616]

Yeah but I ain't talking about depicting neutral space, I'm talking about depicting the universe, as a bunch of galaxies and whatnot enclosed in a dimensional wall that just so happens to be uni sized that we can see through, all happening without abstractions, with said uni even interacting, in real time, with a character proving, that how we see it in that instance isn't a mere visual abstraction.

Neutral zone legit doesn't effect here.

I mean, the universe map isn’t an abstraction as far as we know. In Kai we see the Universe straight on like we do in Super and it’s the map. In the Dragon Ball Super Manga, when we see Universe 10, again from the outside straight on, it’s the map. While we don’t get to see it “head on” in Z, Grand Kai confirms that the Universe looks like the map (similar to how Whis explains the Universe, but visually accurate). Seemingly, the Macrocosms are intended to literally look this way, implying the Super Anime not doing this is the abstraction, not the other way around.

Edit: To be clear to those upvoting me, I’m disagreeing with an Infinite Universe. I just don’t think using visuals from the DBS Anime works to debunk the cosmology as penned by Toriyama, especially given it’s blatantly utilized in most Dragon Ball mediums (including canon).

 

[Cropfist]

I disagree.

 

[Chariot190]

This is literally just the light super shenron is emitting, this has nothing to do with anything, and like I said, we aren't going to see the dimensional barriers because its literally just the fabric of space, also the different spacetimes are not visible from that representation because its just a visual. And yes the macrocosms are 2-C.

Yes, and it's cascading off said walls.

They're there, they exist, they are interacting with said light.

dimensional walls do exist, thats what separates the realms obviously, we have seen them broken before, gotenks, super buu, gogeta and broly, even vegeta did it. But what you're saying about how these dimensional walls, are "translucent"

Because they are? They're clear, we can see the universe inside them.

They're dimensional walls, barrier, whatever you want to play semantics about. Unless you wanna argue the multiverse is 3-A

and beerus can, "crack it like glass if he punches one of the universe", makes no sense at all and is backed up by nothing.

Again, strawmanning. I said, how do we know?

It doesn't need to be backed by anything, they're there, they exist, and are LITERALLY being interacted with in said scene.

Pretending that isn't what they are,

Shenron doesn't interact with them at all, the light shining literally proves nothing lmao.

Why is the light cascading off the apparently completely visual non-existent walls?

Here look, I'll even zoom in and slow it down for you


That isn't just "bro shining", the light from him is cascading and traveling across the very walls you keep saying aren't there.

Lmao the universes in zeno's realms are the main universes, we see 12 of them in the manga also, and in real time, take that as you may because we still don't know the nature of his dimension at all, point is, that these are not accurate depictions and it has varies.

So essentially, you just admitted you made a false equivalence and it isn't at all comparable with us just straight up seeing the universe, as it exists, in the cosmology without alteration?

Thanks for arguing your own point for me ig

No, such a drastic take needs to be defended by you with actual evidence, not just because you feel like its the case, its not shown on screen, or backed up by anything, so its clearly not right.

It is LITERALLY shown on screen. Your whole argument is based on preconceived notions, and assumptions it has to look a certain way, presuming because blatant maps and abstractions were inconsistent that this is too, and a whole bunch of stuff, based solely on incredulity or self-fulfillment.

Fact of the matter is, we have no idea how that shit is supposed to look in actuality, how it'd look, how them being divided would look (id assume not that different given the very existence of the unis themselves kinda proves all that stuff can be shoved in one space separated by dimension walls that we evidently see aren't opaque), all to somehow handwave the very fact we see it.

Like dude, none of this matters, we see it, tough luck, it is what it is.

They are separated by the higher dimensional axis, so they can be perceived as finite from the outside, which is what we see, from the neutral zone, what separates them

This is actual made up extrapolation. They're shoved in a 5D space, we are viewing them from the same perspective as everything else, it is simply zoomed out.
They would not look smaller, or bigger, or any different than how they actually are, just because the POV is from the neutral zone.

What do you mean a, "normal perspective", and the default assumptions do matter because the show doesn't contradict it whatsoever. You're just ignoring the entire thing.

Dude, do you not realize the implications this would have on the entire arc we just watched?

I'm ignoring the conjecture yes. Shit doesn't even say what you're arguing. Simply being in the Neutral Zone, ain't gonna make it look smaller, **** do you have any idea what that'd entail for the very cast there?

I mean, the universe map isn’t an abstraction as far as we know. In Kai we see the Universe straight on like we do in Super and it’s the map. In the Dragon Ball Super Manga, when we see Universe 10, again from the outside straight on, it’s the map. While we don’t get to see it “head on” in Z, Grand Kai confirms that the Universe looks like the map (similar to how Whis explains the Universe, but visually accurate). Seemingly, the Macrocosms are intended to literally look this way, implying the Super Anime not doing this is the abstraction, not the other way around.

Dog, ya can see snake way there, shit is def not literal unless we want 4-B uni, as opposed to the time it just zooms out and we see the uni

 

[RedReaper616]

Dog, ya can see snake way there, shit is def not literal unless we want 4-B uni, as opposed to the time it just zooms out and we see the uni

I’m not saying it’s “to scale.” Or “literally sized.” That’s totally separate from what I’m saying. I’m noting that, seemingly, the Macrocosms are meant to literally look (not sized, LOOK) like the Map as penned by Toriyama. Not like the generic galaxy spiral the anime uses to show Universes. (Hence why I included more than just the initial image.) As such I don’t think those visuals can be used as a higher evidence over what the Dragon World looks like, cosmologically.

 

[Omegabronic]

I mean, the universe map isn’t an abstraction as far as we know. In Kai we see the Universe straight on like we do in Super and it’s the map. In the Dragon Ball Super Manga, when we see Universe 10, again from the outside straight on, it’s the map. While we don’t get to see it “head on” in Z, Grand Kai confirms that the Universe looks like the map (similar to how Whis explains the Universe, but visually accurate). Seemingly, the Macrocosms are intended to literally look this way, implying the Super Anime not doing this is the abstraction, not the other way around.

Edit: To be clear to those upvoting me, I’m disagreeing with an Infinite Universe. I just don’t think using visuals from the DBS Anime works to debunk the cosmology as penned by Toriyama, especially given it’s blatantly utilized in most Dragon Ball mediums (including canon).

No, the map ISN'T what the universe looks like, IT CAN'T BE WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE it contraDicts EVERYTHING ABOUT THE COSMOLOGY WE SEE IN THE ACTUAL SERIES, this was already accepted in other threads

 

[Chariot190]

I’m not saying it’s “to scale.” Or “literally sized.” That’s totally separate from what I’m saying. I’m noting that, seemingly, the Macrocosms are meant to literally look like the Map as penned by Toriyama. Not like the generic galaxy spiral the anime uses to show Universes. (Hence why I included more than just the initial image.)

If the maps very blatantly have stuff not to scale, it doesnt disprove anything.

The anime shows them as spheres just the same, and given we 100% know your examples arent to scale, and in actuality, would be mostly just empty space, stars, galaxies, etc, im not seeing much issue. Only probably is we dont see the lil tippy point at the bottom but that's excusable given it's cut off.
or maybe the anime just has its own take on it given it's consistently portrayed that way contrary to the other material

 

[RedReaper616]

No, the map ISN'T what the universe looks like, IT CAN'T BE WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE it contraDicts EVERYTHING ABOUT THE COSMOLOGY WE SEE IN THE ACTUAL SERIES, this was already accepted in other threads

How so?

 

[RedReaper616]

If the maps very blatantly have stuff not to scale, it doesnt disprove anything.

The anime shows them as spheres just the same, and given we 100% know your examples arent to scale, and in actuality, would be mostly just empty space, stars, galaxies, etc, im not seeing much issue. Only probably is we dont see the lil tippy point at the bottom but that's excusable given it's cut off.
or maybe the anime just has its own take on it given it's consistently portrayed that way contrary to the other material

I’m mostly referring to your claims on what the universe “looks like when unabstracted,” and solely using the Anime’s visuals as proof of contrary evidence, when the Dragon World very consistently has a specific model (visual) it runs off of. That said, I wouldn’t be opposed with simply saying the Super Anime is different compared to the rest. Edit: To be clear, I believe the Anime models them the way they do out of convenience visually. Not accuracy. However, that’s simply my personal interpretation of why they illustrated it the way they did, and not objective fact, and thus isn’t relevant to the discussion.

 

[Omegabronic]

How so?

Dragon ball universe crt

the current calcs for the 3-As in the dbs uses the classic map for the macrocosm to calc the ap and speed of the characters, however there are two problems with this: 1: this map is not consistent with dbs anime's visuals of how universes are, it is consistently shown to not look like the...

vsbattles.com

Outside of this' points, the fact that the kaioshin real is smaller than the living universe would be proof enough of its inconsistencies

If you want to argue further, then do it elsewhere, this has little to do with the proposal

 

[Omegabronic]

I’m mostly referring to your claims on what the universe “looks like when unabstracted,” and solely using the Anime’s visuals as proof of contrary evidence, when the Dragon World very consistently has a specific model (visual) it runs off of. That said, I wouldn’t be opposed with simply saying the Super Anime is different compared to the rest. Edit: To be clear, I believe the Anime models them the way they do out of convenience visually. Not accuracy. However, that’s simply my personal interpretation of why they illustrated it the way they did, and not objective fact, and thus isn’t relevant to the discussion.

You can'y ignore the size contradictions when talking about appearence......one is THE SAME AS THE OTHER

 

[Chariot190]

I’m mostly referring to your claims on what the universe “looks like when unabstracted,” and solely using the Anime’s visuals as proof of contrary evidence, when the Dragon World very consistently has a specific model (visual) it runs off of. That said, I wouldn’t be opposed with simply saying the Super Anime is different compared to the rest.

I mean it is simply the case, that is the single time we actually see the universe, flat out, in actuality.
It is not infinite, hence, while I would normally agree with the CRT, I take visual evidence first and foremost especially when it's the only time we actually see it, thus I disagree.

 

[Deleted member 40688]

Nuh uh.
Agree with galaxy sized universes.

 

[RedReaper616]

You can'y ignore the size contradictions when talking about appearence......one is THE SAME AS THE OTHER

Size contradictions.

No one is talking about size. Everyone agrees that it’s not to scale. We are speaking solely on the visual appearance of the Universe.

Furthermore, your thread literally admits the Manga still has the Macrocosm map as the literal visual, and just elects to not use it to scale…which is the point I made. Ignoring any conversation of size, the Universe explicitly and literally looks like the map.

That is to say, you’re disagreeing to disagree.

Also, your thread conveniently talks about changing the Dragon World’s visual appearance relative to specifically the Anime, which I handily agreed to moments prior. Again, you’re seemingly disagreeing to disagree.

 

[TiltedFN]

Yes, and it's cascading off said walls.

No its not, its literally just the flash of light, thats all, its not shinning off of dimensional barriers lmao, thats not how it works, since the barriers are just the fabric of space and time, not some physical ******* glass barrier or something.

They're there, they exist, they are interacting with said light.

They aren't interacting with it physically, and again, none of this matters at all since its not an actual accurate representation of the universe. Why are you treating the universes as though they are just glass balls that you can bounce up and down?

Because they are? They're clear, we can see the universe inside them.

They're dimensional walls, barrier, whatever you want to play semantics about. Unless you wanna argue the multiverse is 3-A

No they aren't, they are not translucent, you can't really depict spacetime barriers as anything but just, space itself, the fabric, because thats what it is. What do you think a spatialtemporal barrier even is? Can you tell me? Because I have the feeling that you don't know.

Again, strawmanning. I said, how do we know?

It doesn't need to be backed by anything, they're there, they exist, and are LITERALLY being interacted with in said scene.

Pretending that isn't what they are,

"I said, how do we know?" No there's none of that, either prove that its the case or your claim is literally baseless and you're ignoring how spacetime actually works. I dont have to prove that beerus punching the universe wont shatter like physical glass because thats not how it works, or has ever worked when dealing with the fabric of spacetime. Its not some physical window glass barrier separating the universes.

Why is the light cascading off the apparently completely visual non-existent walls?

Here look, I'll even zoom in and slow it down for you


That isn't just "bro shining", the light from him is cascading and traveling across the very walls you keep saying aren't there.

The light is shining across the neutral space, we dont even know if you can see this light from within the universes when its coming from the neutral space, so again thats a nothing point.

So essentially, you just admitted you made a false equivalence and it isn't at all comparable with us just straight up seeing the universe, as it exists, in the cosmology without alteration?

Thanks for arguing your own point for me ig

Not really, point is that we see both depictions of the universes in real time lmao. Its not accurate at ALL, there are so many things wrong with the macrocosms looking like that its not even funny, like just taking a quick glance at it would tell anybody its not accurate in the slightest. We dont see ANY of the other realms at all, it cant be 100 percent accurate.

It is LITERALLY shown on screen. Your whole argument is based on preconceived notions, and assumptions it has to look a certain way, presuming because blatant maps and abstractions were inconsistent that this is too, and a whole bunch of stuff, based solely on incredulity or self-fulfillment.

Fact of the matter is, we have no idea how that shit is supposed to look in actuality, how it'd look, how them being divided would look (id assume not that different given the very existence of the unis themselves kinda proves all that stuff can be shoved in one space separated by dimension walls that we evidently see aren't opaque), all to somehow handwave the very fact we see it.

Like dude, none of this matters, we see it, tough luck, it is what it is.

No this is just you ignoring everything about the show, statements, and showings we already know about the cosmology, pushing a narrative that makes no logical sense at all, ignoring the tiering system, ignoring how higher dimensional spaces work, universal separation, literally everything.

This is actual made up extrapolation. They're shoved in a 5D space, we are viewing them from the same perspective as everything else, it is simply zoomed out.
They would not look smaller, or bigger, or any different than how they actually are, just because the POV is from the neutral zone.

Its not made up, its simply how it is, spacetimes are made up of uncountable 3D objects anyway, so they are infinite by default, and if they cannot interact with each other, that also means they have to be separated by a higher axis so they're spatialtemporal infinities do not collide with each other, the spatial axes are orthogonal.

Dude, do you not realize the implications this would have on the entire arc we just watched?

I'm ignoring the conjecture yes. Shit doesn't even say what you're arguing. Simply being in the Neutral Zone, ain't gonna make it look smaller, **** do you have any idea what that'd entail for the very cast there?

Being in the neutral zone will make them look finite yes, as ive said, im bout to be done with this back and forth if you keep ignoring standards and rules for the verse we already have in place. I have a thread where this exact same thing was actually brought up, its agreed that the universes aren't actual depictions of them at all, how the neutral zone is higher dimensional no matter what, and by default. This is just old arguments brought back up for no reason at all.