Infinite universe DB Redux

[KingTempest]

Doesn’t the universe have borders?

 

[TiltedFN]

It's a blatant visual contradiction my dude.

No its literally not, we know the universe doesn't actually look like how its conveyed, it varies throughout the series.

This doesn't matter? It doesn't change what they look like.

Yes it matters completely, if they are separated by a higher dimensional space they will look finite from the neutral zone, like wtf?

Based on? That happened in real time, we see two spheres, filled with nebulae, galaxies, and more, why in the world are we assuming "nuh uh it fake", it is LITERALLY what they look without artistic license or representation.

Give me, an actual hard statement saying this so "purely visual" as if we don't see non visual stuff like shenron's light at the exact same time.

Tbh I would've agreed with the CRT but Super ******* hates ya dog

Like that is not infinite, and they show them a few times too iirc.

Because this BLATANTLY does not show all the parts of the universe like the afterlife, hell, kaioshin realm, its so obviously just a representation, its not what the actual universe looks like in full scope, we have been over this so many times. And if you're just talking about how it appears finite there is literally a reason for this.

 

[TiltedFN]

I don't really agree with making the physical universe of Dragon Ball infinite.

And whys that?

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Doesn’t the universe have borders?

In what capacity?

 

[Phsccarvalho]

This ain't an argument, this is literally what they look like without fluff

In truth no.

If it were literally like this, universe 7 would be 3-A and not 2-C as we see.

This visual representation is from universe 7, which has the living universe, the other world and the world of kaioshins that is outside the main macrosm.

We basically see ourselves from a higher dimensional perspective, as each universe is basically a multiverse and everything we see in visual representation is a normal universe.

If we see ourselves from a higher dimensional perspective, we would not see the three-dimensional size of the space of the universe from the outside.
alive.

A finite four-dimensional box can fit infinite 3-D space inside it, and we wouldn't see that infinite from a higher perspective, only the finite box.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Doesn’t the universe have borders?

Space-time barriers, so 4D barriers yeah.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

In truth no.

If it were literally like this, universe 7 would be 3-A and not 2-C as we see.

This visual representation is from universe 7, which has the living universe, the other world and the world of kaioshins that is outside the main macrosm.

We basically see ourselves from a higher dimensional perspective, as each universe is basically a multiverse and everything we see in visual representation is a normal universe.

If we see ourselves from a higher dimensional perspective, we would not see the three-dimensional size of the space of the universe from the outside.
alive.

A finite four-dimensional box can fit infinite 3-D space inside it, and we wouldn't see that finite from a higher perspective, only the finite box.

then make it 3-A tbh

anyways im neutral on this topic since i dont really care for it as much anymore

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Hyperbole, inconsistent, outlier, out of context.

 

[Chariot190]

No its literally not, we know the universe doesn't actually look like how its conveyed, it varies throughout the series.

Dude, this is the SINGLE time it is quite literally shown. It isn't a map, some dude yapping, an artistic representation, it is literally the universe shown directly.

Yes it matters completely, if they are separated by a higher dimensional space they will look finite from the neutral zone, like wtf?

No they wouldn't? It's just a dimensional wall, we can literally see into them. The fact we can see into them, and the inside is blatantly finite, well sucks ig. And what does it being a higher-D wall matter? It can still be finite in scale, that's what the "space" part entails.

This argument doesn't even make sense, in what world would they look finite from a neutral zone? By that logic everything should look non-literal in said zone, yet we know that isn't the case.

Because this BLATNATLY does not show all the parts of the universe like the afterlife, hell, kaioshin realm, its so obviously just a representation, its not what the actual universe looks like in full scope, we have been over this so many times.

And how would we know? That shit may as well be non-visible. And hell, you said yourself, it varies all the time, why take any of that literally as opposed to the actual time we see them?

This is the single time, ever, we ACTUALLY see what they look like, all this other variable showings? Maps? Whis or whoever yapping? That's the artistic representation. This is just straight-up what they look like.

You are literally arguing that they're not literal, yet everything in said scene happens in real time, is drawn literally, but just what contradicts the CRT isn't?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

The part about counterargument (yes, a singular counterargument) is funny, at least.

Later on jaco comments on bulma wanting to go to the center of the universe and tells her she it stupid for even wanting to try because of how massive the universe is, being composed of "Countless galaxies"

Comprised of とんでもない, or an "unthinkable; unexpected; absurd; outrageous; preposterous; terrible" number of galaxies. Unquantifiable.

and that it's not possible.

Because the number of galaxies is as vast as Jaco claims, travelling to the center of the universe is infeasible.
Why does this need to be spelled out to understand?

Which shows bulma as not a credible source and the statement shouldn't be taken seriously when deciding cosmology

Jaco never discredited her knowing of the edge and the center of the universe, he only shot down her desire to explore said regions of space.

especially since we have never seen this so called edge of the universe at all.

The television series provides a visual of said edge and center of the universe.

You can easily just knock this statement off as bulma saying they are on the edge of the universe based off what she herself knows.

And what Jaco co-signs.

Or in other words, this is only in reference to the observable universe

Never implied.

that confirms jaco's statement to be true that there is no way of going to a place like that.

Not that the place is non-existent, though.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Hyperbole, inconsistent, outlier, out of context.

This is the second time you've said this

 

[GarrixianXD]

If no one is going to point out any translation errors then I'm inclined to agree with this. Since the Neutral Space is treated as 5-D, it makes sense that the universes are depicted as finite visually since we're observing it from a 4-D spatial perspective.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

also, some joe schmoe told this didn't really change so it might be derailing, but king kai keeps a book with a grid of coordinates spanning across the entire universe.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

The television series provides a visual of said edge and center of the universe.

In fact, this is the edge of just a single galaxy, see other galaxies shining in the background

Lack of interpretation assume

 

[TiltedFN]

Dude, this is the SINGLE time it is quite literally shown. It isn't a map, some dude yapping, an artistic representation, it is literally the universe shown directly.

And the universes have been shown multiple times, sometimes they are different, but based on how we know all the different realms look, it means that what we are shown isnt what the actual universe looks like.

No they wouldn't? It's just a dimensional wall, we can literally see into them. The fact we can see into them, and the inside is blatantly finite, well sucks ig. And what does it being a higher-D wall matter? It can still be finite in scale, that's what the "space" part entails.

This argument doesn't even make sense, in what world would they look finite from a neutral zone? By that logic everything should look non-literal in said zone, yet we know that isn't the case.

Buddy we literally know that parallel universes are separated by a higher dimensional space, the spacetimes are disconnected by dimensional barriers, which means to be parallel they have to be across a higher dimensional space which is the neutral zone. Which is why it looks finite, but its actually not, and like I said, it doesn't matter whats shown here because we dont see any of the other realms at all lmao, so its clearly not 100 percent accurate to what the macrocosm looks like.

And how would we know? That shit may as well be non-visible. And hell, you said yourself, it varies all the time, why take any of that literally as opposed to the actual time we see them?

This is the single time, ever, we ACTUALLY see what they look like, all this other variable showings? Maps? Whis or whoever yapping? That's the artistic representation. This is just straight-up what they look like.

You are literally arguing that they're not literal, yet everything in said scene happens in real time, is drawn literally, but just what contradicts the CRT isn't?

We know that because its not shown, its a different spacetime, the afterlife is literally bigger than the living universe, prove its just, "not visible", wheres the kaioshin realm or hell?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

In fact, this is the edge of just a single galaxy,

Clearly not.
The visual accompanies Bulma's explanation of her plans to reach the center of the universe, and there are other galaxies inside the construct we're both looking at.
There is a cluster of them towards the center.

see other galaxies shining in the background

Neutral Zone.
C'mon, I thought you were an expert on this kind of stuff; you should know better.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

No its literally not, we know the universe doesn't actually look like how its conveyed, it varies throughout the series.

Zen-Oh's Palace.

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm not really care at this point, but if we seriously using visual as counter argument, then we should accept universe being 3-C because the sphere that depicted the universe contain only 1 galaxy, we can't just use thing we like and discard other aspects we don't like

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Dude, this is the SINGLE time it is quite literally shown. It isn't a map, some dude yapping, an artistic representation, it is literally the universe shown directly.

No they wouldn't? It's just a dimensional wall, we can literally see into them. The fact we can see into them, and the inside is blatantly finite, well sucks ig. And what does it being a higher-D wall matter? It can still be finite in scale, that's what the "space" part entails.

This argument doesn't even make sense, in what world would they look finite from a neutral zone? By that logic everything should look non-literal in said zone, yet we know that isn't the case.

And how would we know? That shit may as well be non-visible. And hell, you said yourself, it varies all the time, why take any of that literally as opposed to the actual time we see them?

This is the single time, ever, we ACTUALLY see what they look like, all this other variable showings? Maps? Whis or whoever yapping? That's the artistic representation. This is just straight-up what they look like.

You are literally arguing that they're not literal, yet everything in said scene happens in real time, is drawn literally, but just what contradicts the CRT isn't?

A higher dimension is gonna make an infinite sized structure in a lower dimension appear finite. You can use this same example for a line and a 2D graph. A line is comprised of an infinite amount of point, but it’ll look finite on a graph. The same logic applies here, if we’re getting a higher dimensional perspective, then obviously it’ll appear finite. You’re arguing with basic dimensionality concepts.

The part about counterargument (yes, a singular counterargument) is funny, at least.

Comprised of とんでもない, or an "unthinkable; unexpected; absurd; outrageous; preposterous; terrible" number of galaxies. Unquantifiable.

Because the number of galaxies is as vast as Jaco claims, travelling to the center of the universe is infeasible.
Why does this need to be spelled out to understand?

Jaco never discredited her knowing of the edge and the center of the universe, he only shot down her desire to explore said regions of space.

The television series provides a visual of said edge and center of the universe.

And what Jaco co-signs.

Never implied.

Not that the place is non-existent, though.

You gonna mention the official site statement about what Jaco thought?

If no one is going to point out any translation errors then I'm inclined to agree with this. Since the Neutral Space is treated as 5-D, it makes sense that the universes are depicted as finite visually since we're observing it from a 4-D spatial perspective.

Could you point out the translation errors and the true translation? If there are genuine translation errors, we would want to fix that.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

You gonna mention the official site statement about what Jaco thought?

What exactly is there to talk about?

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Clearly not.
The visual accompanies Bulma's explanation of her plans to reach the center of the universe, and there are other galaxies inside the construct we're both looking at.
There is a cluster of them towards the center.

In fact, it is not the center of the Universe, but the center of just one galaxy, it is refuted by Jacob who has knowledge about the Universe, there is no center

Neutral Zone.
C'mon, I thought you were an expert on this kind of stuff; you should know better.

What you mentioned doesn't make sense, you are refuted by the anime itself which shows that the neutral zone has a different color than space

 

[Chariot190]

In truth no.

If it were literally like this, universe 7 would be 3-A and not 2-C as we see.

Sucks to suck I guess

This visual representation is from universe 7, which has the living universe, the other world and the world of kaioshins that is outside the main macrosm.

It literally isn't, it's the single time it isn't a visual representation.

We basically see ourselves from a higher dimensional perspective, as each universe is basically a multiverse and everything we see in visual representation is a normal universe.

Dude, it's straight up a zoomed out shot

If we see ourselves from a higher dimensional perspective, we would not see the three-dimensional size of the space of the universe from the outside.
alive.

This isn't even true?
Not only is that not a HDE view, it's straightup just a zoomed out shot of where Goku and lads where. Being an in outside space, doesn't not mean the universe sized universes, that we can see into, and see that not only are they finite, but have finite contents within, is actually some higher D viewing.

That ain't even what they'd look if that was from a higher d perspective anyway

A finite four-dimensional box can fit infinite 3-D space inside it, and we wouldn't see that infinite from a higher perspective, only the finite box.

Dude, we can literally see the very 3D light from shenron shine in real time.

And the universes have been shown multiple times, sometimes they are different, but based on how we know all the different realms look, it means that what we are shown isnt what the actual universe looks like.

Yeah in maps, yapping, etc, this is the sole time we ACTUALLY see them. the rest don't matter.

Buddy we literally know that parallel universes are separated by a higher dimensional space, the spacetimes are disconnected by dimensional barriers, which means to be parallel they have to be across a higher dimensional space which is the neutral zone.

And we can see that dimensional barriers are but translucent walls. Neutral Zone quite literally effects nothing.

Which is why it looks finite, but its actually not, and like I said, it doesn't matter whats shown here because we dont see any of the other realms at all lmao, so its clearly not 100 percent accurate to what the macrocosm looks like.

It is the single time we actually see it. The single, lone, time were the universe is not subject to abstraction. It should be the main frame of reference dude.
"we dont see a miniscule transparent wall here or there in the even bigger translucent space-time wall", so? We're talking about universe sized shit, I pray we can't actually see it

And, this is also just conjecture, I don't want mental gymnastics based on assumptions which in and of itself is just us making assumptions based on arbitrary standards, I want tangible evidence.

We know that because its not shown, its a different spacetime, the afterlife is literally bigger than the living universe, prove its just, "not visible", wheres the kaioshin realm or hell?

Pocket realities my dude. This should be fairly obvious, given, ya know, DBZ is chock full of them?

And prove it? How? "yeah we cant see the microscopic demon realm or kaioshin realm so guess that must not be what the universe actually looks like".
Is this actually your argument "abstractions look different and we dont see alt dimensions (that we wouldnt even be able to tell anyway if they all superimposed in the same space-time bubble) so us straight up seeing the universes must be an abstraction and we should take the actual abstractions as evidence"?

 

[GarrixianXD]

Could you point out the translation errors and the true translation? If there are genuine translation errors, we would want to fix that.

Well, I wouldn't know entirely but this is the translation that particularly bothers me:



It says "uncountable" rather than "countless", which doesn't make much realistic sense given the context. Even though I am not very adept at reading Japanese, the kanji term "未知" strictly means "unknown" in Mandarin Chinese. I'm not sure if it's the same definition in Japanese, but honestly, it should be. That pretty much just gave me the impression there are multiple translation errors in the blog.

 

[Chariot190]

A higher dimension is gonna make an infinite sized structure in a lower dimension appear finite. You can use this same example for a line and a 2D graph. A line is comprised of an infinite amount of point, but it’ll look finite on a graph. The same logic applies here, if we’re getting a higher dimensional perspective, then obviously it’ll appear finite.

Dude, we can see the goddamn galaxies in it, all it is, is a universe contained in a dimensional wall

I would like to remind you Goku and friends just chilling in that very same zone, yet their perspective ain't distorted in the slighest.

You’re arguing with basic dimensionality concepts.

Which evidently heed not apply.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

In fact, it is not the center of the Universe, but the center of just one galaxy, it is refuted by Jacob who has knowledge about the Universe, there is no center

Just in one ear and out the other, huh?
Man, what a stupid thing to say, anyway; that it's just the center of one galaxy... with an innumerable additional galaxies at its core.
Must be one of those nebula the Daizenshuu was talking about.

All this, and only one of my Ghost Fixers calculations has been approved in the past week.

What you mentioned doesn't make sense, you are refuted by the anime itself which shows that the neutral zone has a different color than space

Weird.

 

[Chariot190]

I'm not really care at this point, but if we seriously using visual as counter argument, then we should accept universe being 3-C because the sphere that depicted the universe contain only 1 galaxy, we can't just use thing we like and discard other aspects we don't like

Supermassive galaxy with a slew of smaller galaxies arounds it (so by default we know the big center one aint normal).
We know DBZ has big ass galaxy-galaxies so shrug. Would still be 3-A so nothing changes.

 

[TiltedFN]

Yeah in maps, yapping, etc, this is the sole time we ACTUALLY see them. the rest don't matter.

The rest do matter because its clearly shown what we see is purely visual. The neutral zone effects everything because it literally keeps them separate, via being higher dimensional which is what ALL universe separation comes down to.

And we can see that dimensional barriers are but translucent walls. Neutral Zone quite literally effects nothing.

They aren't translucent walls, the barriers are literally the fabric of space and time which we do NOT see. We only "see" it when characters break reality which doesn't even appear as a barrier visually just break space pretty much. And again, its clearly not accurate because we don't see the other realms. So its not accurate.

It is the single time we actually see it. The single, lone, time were the universe is not subject to abstraction. It should be the main frame of reference dude.
"we dont see a miniscule transparent wall here or there in the even bigger translucent space-time wall", so? We're talking about universe sized shit, I pray we can't actually see it

And, this is also just conjecture, I don't want mental gymnastics based on assumptions which in and of itself is just us making assumptions based on arbitrary standards, I want tangible evidence.

Its you who needs to give evidence that it IS actually accurate by showing us where all the other realms are lmfao, spacetime barriers aren't "translucent walls".

Pocket realities my dude. This should be fairly obvious, given, ya know, DBZ is chock full of them?

And prove it? How? "yeah we cant see the microscopic demon realm or kaioshin realm so guess that must not be what the universe actually looks like".
Is this actually your argument "abstractions look different and we dont see alt dimensions (that we wouldnt even be able to tell anyway if they all superimposed in the same space-time bubble) so us straight up seeing the universes must be an abstraction and we should take the actual abstractions as evidence"?

Except the realms aren't pocket realities, they are full on universe sized spacetimes, including the kaioshin realms, so if we don't see the afterlife which is literally bigger than the living realm, why is a sphere with one big galaxy shown on it accurate? Its not. And again, the universes appearing finite literally doesn't matter since its from the neutral space, and universal separation always is separate higher dimensions, a 5th axis.

 

[GarrixianXD]

There's a map of the DB macrocosm and we can literally see the Snake Way with the naked eye. If we're taking the visual depiction literally for everything, then the universes in DB would be smaller than our solar system, lol.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

And we can see that dimensional barriers are but translucent walls. Neutral Zone quite literally effects nothing.

Just to be clear, are you contesting the Neutral Space being higher dimensional in the first place?

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Dude, this is the SINGLE time it is quite literally shown. It isn't a map, some dude yapping, an artistic representation, it is literally the universe shown directly.

No not really it wouldn’t even be consistent to say that the universe looks exactly like that. As it’s contradicted in the actual show.

No they wouldn't? It's just a dimensional wall, we can literally see into them. The fact we can see into them, and the inside is blatantly finite, well sucks ig. And what does it being a higher-D wall matter? It can still be finite in scale, that's what the "space" part entails.

It would be impossible to LITERALLY have two infinity’s on screen at the same time so some artistic liberties have to be taken when showing them off. The scene not only has to show us the universes but the neutral zone. So it’s going to look finite even though it’s not.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Just in one ear and out the other, huh?
Man, what a stupid thing to say, anyway; that it's just the center of one galaxy... with an innumerable additional galaxies at its core.
Must be one of those nebula the Daizenshuu was talking about.

Bulma doesn't even know what she's saying, even her own speech is refuted by sheillong himself

All this, and only one of my Ghost Fixers calculations has been approved in the past week.

Weird.

Space color



Space color



Now look at the difference in the color of the neutral zone



As you can see, that's just one galaxy that Bulma imagined and there are several others like it, Jaco's explanation is worth more than Bulma's own lack of knowledge about the Universe.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

There's a map of the DB macrocosm and we can literally see the Snake Way with the naked eye. If we're taking the visual depiction literally for everything, then the universes in DB would be smaller than our solar system, lol.

Y'know what's funny? I tried arguing that the map wasn't drawn to-scale a year or two ago to downgrade the 3-A calculation we were using, and I was told it was stupid, lol.

 

[Livinmeme]

Wait. Even if super shenron feat made it not an infinite universe, there is enough evidence to apply it to toei verse, right?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Jaco's explanation is worth more than Bulma's own lack of knowledge about the Universe.

Jaco's explanation confirmed the existence of a center of the universe, only clarifying that reaching the center is unfeasible due to the distance.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Multiversus just crashed...

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Jaco's explanation confirmed the existence of a center of the universe, only clarifying that reaching the center is unfeasible due to the distance.

No, he says that it is impossible and that there is no such thing, there are countless other galaxies like this, there is no, there is no way, these are his words.

 

[TiltedFN]

Also to add on to my point, since the universes are already separate spacetimes, this means they are already built up of uncountably infinite 3D objects anyways, so they are already infinite in size because they are spacetimes. So they would look finite anyways when shown in a space that separates them, its literally a given. In our tiering system right here states that the distance between two universes will always be across a higher dimensional structures, its going to look finite no matter what.

 

[TiltedFN]

Jaco's explanation confirmed the existence of a center of the universe, only clarifying that reaching the center is unfeasible due to the distance.

It really doesn't, if anything, it proves bulma just doesn't know what shes talking about, even jaco said she cant fathom how big the milky way is, let alone the universe. Jaco doesn't confirm it exist, him saying theres no way to get there doesn't mean there is one, especially since if you want to get technical, there really is not center of the universe anyway. And bulma wouldn't know that either.

 

[Omegabronic]

Dude, this is the SINGLE time it is quite literally shown. It isn't a map, some dude yapping, an artistic representation, it is literally the universe shown directly.

if you think that this a literal representations, then the universe, accepted as 2-C(aka 3 space times) wouldn't make sense, you can't zoom out of space times and see them physically

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Wait. Even if super shenron feat made it not an infinite universe, there is enough evidence to apply it to toei verse, right?

No. It'd be fundamentally incompatible as we accept a shared cosmology. Can't have your cake and eat it too.