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Imperiex Revisions

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Imperiex destroyed the universe by creating machines that damaged various fault lines across reality then detonating them all at once, which caused a cascading effect that ended the current universe. Even when assaulting Earth he relied completely on those machines.

His self-detonation also wouldn't scale. Before B-13 it was only galatic/multi-galatic in scale, with Darkseid outright saying that they could teleport him back to Maxima's galaxy to undo the damage he caused. Even after B-13 his explosion was directly compared to the big bang in power and scale.

So all-in-all I diagree. He should stay as is.
 
Except even if he did use a chain reaction to destroy the Universe, he still completely recreated it with his own energy, being that he is a living Big Bang after all. And many Big Bangs across fiction are far greater than universal, so I don't know how that is an argument against Imperiex.

Where did Darkseid say that, by the way?
 
We agreed here that the 11-D part is via hollowing, while the Big Bang feat itself is Low 2-C.
 
Why would the hollowing have greater dimensional effects than the Big Bang such hollowing was supposed to cause? Or at least be a precursor to?
 
The Big Bang didn't cause an 11-D event, it was formed from that. Also, in this sca they call the Multiverse an 11-D structure. Why would he use them if they didn't cause greater dimensional effects than the Big Bang?
 
The Big Bang was formed from a 11-D event yes. I don't know how that contradicts it being 11-D itself. Especially since the event that precluded it, the destruction of the previous universe, was clearly portrayed as equivalent in scale.

And they weren't saying that the multiverse was 11-D, but that it was layered well beyond the known 11 dimensions of the universe.
 
Well, the universe being 11-D is frequently contradicted. For example, Mister Mxyzptlk and other higher dimensional beings are established as being beyond the universe on multiple occasions.

That makes very little difference.
 
It doesn't matter what other story arcs depict the Universe as, since in this one the Universe is 11-D. This is of course ignoring the fact that "universe" can mean different things in different contexts
 
We seem to be talking past each other, so let me lay out my position:

1. The Universe, in the OWAW story arc, was described as an at least 11-D to 12-1/3-D structure, with the "Multiverse" layered well beyond it.

2. Imperiex's job is to destroy and recreate the Universe using whatever means desired or necessary, which is natural once you consider that he is the embodiment of entropy and rebirth.

3. From this, we can glean that, if Imperiex destroying the structure is an 11-D event, then him recreating it is also an 11-D event. Otherwise, how can a 4-D event recreate an 11-D structure?

This is backed up by the description of Imperiex (or maybe Eradicator) observing "cosmic amounts" of matter and energy collapse back into the "unquantifiable eleven dimensions from which all things in the universe were long ago exploded".

https://s673.photobucket.com/user/galanphotos/media/imperiexpower8.jpg.html
 
First of all, this sca is from Superman: The Man of Steel #114. Second, my point was the story never calls the actual universe 11-D, and its never portrayed that way outside of one panel in Our Worlds at War. The one from Our Worlds at War is also incredibly confusing, as they say the Universe is layered beyond 11 dimensions, and then they call it the Multiverse in the next panel.

In the "well-beyond" 11-D scan, they say Earth is the linchpin for the Universe. However, Imperiex's plan with the hollowers was to transmute planets into pure energy so he could absorb it, and then use the Earth to recreate the Big Bang. So Imperiex, even while self-destructing, was amped, this doesn't scale to his normal stats, and it took immense preparations.
 
I agree with Qawsedf and ByAsura.

In addition, if we counted Imperiex as 11D or 12D within this story, we would have to count every single DC Comics character in the same manner.

Also, we tend to disregard such higher-dimensional ratings that are contradicted by the stories themselves, and Ultima Reality will soon make our system even stricter in this regard.
 
@ByAsura

>First of all, this scan is from Superman: The Man of Steel #114.

Yes. And? Eradicator was warning Superman about Imperiex in that comic, so it is still relevant.

>Second, my point was the story never calls the actual universe 11-D, and its never portrayed that way outside of one panel in Our Worlds at War

There are two scans, one saying that all things in the universe came from an 11-D big bang in Man of Steel #114, and another saying that the universe has 11 known dimensions in OWAW proper.

When and how was the universe portrayed in a way that contradicts those two panels in OWAW?

>The one from Our Worlds at War is also incredibly confusing, as they say the Universe is layered beyond 11 dimensions, and then they call it the Multiverse in the next panel.

Maybe you're misreading it. The Man of Steel scans give context that the universe itself 11-D, with the multiverse being the part layered well beyond eleven dimensions of the Universe.

>In the "well-beyond" 11-D scan, they say Earth is the linchpin for the Universe. However, Imperiex's plan with the hollowers was to transmute planets into pure energy so he could absorb it, and then use the Earth to recreate the Big Bang. So Imperiex, even while self-destructing, was amped, this doesn't scale to his normal stats, and it took immense preparations.

He transmutes planets from matter to energy to superstring quanta, so that he can absorb and reshape that quanta, particularly when creating a new universe. Even if it was just a simple mass-energy conversion, he isn't amped by any of that because he is already a living Big Bang, and the embodiment of entropy and rebirth, and the mass-energy of planets is an absolutely negligible addition, if any, to his total power.

@Antvasima

>In addition, if we counted Imperiex as 11D or 12D within this story, we would have to count every single DC Comics character in the same manner.

Why? I in particular don't believe that much of anyone else in DC Comics scales to Imperiex, especially due to the more-or-less unique way the Universe was described in that arc.

>Also, we tend to disregard such higher-dimensional ratings that are contradicted by the stories themselves

How was 11-D universe/Imperiex contradicted by the story in any way?

>Ultima Reality will soon make our system even stricter in this regard

May I see these tiering system revisions, please?
 
1) Because if the universe and everybody within it, including Imperiex, were 12D, they would all scale if we took it literally.

2) Imperiex himself only displayed the power to destroy a single universal space-time continuum, not at least 7 degrees of infinity beyond destroying an infinite number of them.

3) No, they are still in the planning stage, but we will essentially make the tiering system go far higher, and also install greater restrictions before using increasing degrees of infinite qualitative superiority for the characters in the wiki. A setting and story must explicitly count higher dimensions as higher degrees of infinity before being counted as such.
 
1. I never said that everybody in the universe was 11-D to 12-1/3-D, just the Universe itself as well as Imperiex.

2. Eradicator clearly tells a different story. Why is Imperiex able to destroy an 11-D construct with a chain reaction, but when he recreates the exact same construct, suddenly it's only 4-D? It makes no sense.

There are many singular universes (or structures merely described as "universes") in fiction that are higher-dimensional, so I don't know why this is a problem for Imperiex.

3. Oh okay.
 
This reminds me of people saying that Lucifer Morningstar is only Low 2-C because he only created a "universe". Or of the idea that Bernkastel and Lambdadelta are only universal entities because they create "universes". In both cases, the context of the usage was completely ignored.
 
1) If the universe itself has that many dimensions, it would scale to the inhabitants.

2) Because he was never remotely displayed as anywhere near that powerful in personal combat, and it would scale to all other characters within the story if we took the higher dimensions literally, which we already try to avoid in general, unless such extreme tiers fit with the story itself.

Anyway, I don't remotely have the time and energy to continue to argue about this, as I handle a few hundred tasks here every day and cannot monopolise this one.
 
1. Why? It doesn't make any sense. Do we count regular humans as 4-D because our own Universe is 4-D. Do we count regular humans as potentially infinite-dimensional because the many-worlds interpretation might be true?

2. Why would he need to? It was established pretty clearly in that storyline that he stomped everybody except two amped versions of Superman (Kismet-amped Superman and Sundipped Superman). For the rest, refer to (1).

I will get the others though.
 
1) Humans are technically 4D, but only passively so, and only if we count time. A universe being spatially higher-dimensional on the other hand would automatically scale to the characters within it. However, the problems that you mention will be removed after Ultima's revision of our system.

2) We would need some form of indication that he has such an extreme power level, and nothing in the story did. We do try to avoid rating higher-dimensional characters as having higher degrees of infinite power if nothing else backs it up.

3) If this is a roundabout way of trying to give post-Crisis Superman a 1-B rating, you definitely seem like Tonathan1000.

4) As I alluded to earlier, I usually spend 12-14 hours a day handling hundreds of tasks within this wiki, and wasting my time in this manner after I have already tried to explain, despite being very tired, is not going to accomplish anything. You should rather ask all of the people I recommended earlier to comment here.
 
1. Why would the universe being spatially higher dimensional automatically scale to all characters within it? It makes no sense scientifically or mathematically. It's like saying that points and lines are 11-D under M-theory. It's just nonsense.

2. What do you mean, "nothing in the story did"? The universe was described as 11-D, and Imperiex recreated it after he destroyed a previous version. It seems pretty cut-and-dry to me.

3. It's not like that at all. I simply consider that an outlier for Superman. It is, however, how the story portrayed Imperiex's power relative to most characters.

4. I have asked all of them to comment here.
 
The evidence presented thus far appears to be far to weak to induce any form of upgrade. The scan specifically appears to be referring to the entire Multiverse as a multi-dimensional construct, rather than just the one singular universe where all our main heroes inhabit. DC has referred to the entire Multiverse as just "The Universe" on a few occasions before, this just appears to be another instance of that.
 
1) I do not know. Maybe you are correct, but that is what I have been told previously.

2) It is still just a universe-destroying and recreating feat. We cannot start to count any character capable of doing this in DC as 8 degrees of infinity higher than anywhere else. The writers clearly did not consider higher dimensions as qualitatively infinitely superior to lower ones within this story.

3) Okay. That diminishes my suspicion.

4) Thank you.
 
@SuperAPM

The scan that speaks of the universe and multiverse specifically denotes the theorized multiverse as "layered well beyond" the "known" eleven dimensions of the universe, suggesting that the universe has eleven known dimensions in that storyline, with the multiverse having far more.

Even if all that was true, it wouldn't matter, since the Man of Steel #114 scan heavily implied that Imperiex affects eleven dimensions with his actions.

@Antvasima

How do we know that the writers clearly didn't intend that within that story? It doesn't contradict any depictions of higher dimensions as higher infinities in DC around that same time period, especially since it describes dimensions as something you can "layer" on top of each other, like planes of existence.
 
They did not remotely refer it as such, or even imply it, so the most straightforward conclusion is that it was just intended to be a usual universal feat. In addition, only Grant Morrison has ever referred to higher-dimensional beings as infinitely superior to lower ones in DC Comics, and that was retconned to not be in a geometric sense anymore during his Batman run, and recently confirmed in Justice League.
 
But isn't it the same way for a lot of characters we otherwise consider to be "higher dimensional"? Why are we suddenly applying such a strict standard in this instance? It seems like a double standard.

And I'm pretty sure it wasn't only Grant Morrison who ever wrote higher dimensions as higher infinities in DC. The relatively consistent portrayals of the Fifth Dimension, Mr. Mxyzptlk, the Cathexis, and Ultimator alone puts a damper on that argument.
 
There's no indication that base Imperiex is anything more than 4-B, and his Tier 2 feats required prep or outside amps. I just disagree with the viewpoint your presenting, Imperiex just doesn't have the hard evidence to suggest more than Low 2-C in from my view.
 
It isn't a double-standard. I have recurrently tried to apply this principle when I have noticed something amiss, and several wrongs do not make a right in the first place.

Only Grant explicitly described higher dimensions as infinities superior to lower ones that I know of, whereas the Imperiex one referenced real world 11D string theory, which does not follow the same standard, and Ultimator was just a story told by Mister Mxyzptlk.
 
Worth pointing out that Superman fought Imperiex while he was heavily boosted specifically to defeat him, but yeah with his sheer big bangs he was going to destroy the 11-D Universe, not supporting the upgrade but the Superman argument doesnt hold up.
 
@Qaw

Imperiex probes are at least 4-B, but that's besides the point. There are at least two scans that heavily suggest that Imperiex impacts the full sum of a 11-D universe. To just ignore them would be irrational.

@Ant

We also use real-world string theory for our own tiering system, but that's besides the point. We have to be consistent here, and there'd be a point if those scans actively contradict the "higher dimensions = higher infinities" rhetoric displayed in other stories, but they don't. We shouldn't ignore the way established continuity portrays dimensions, such as the story arc of the Cathexis.
 
We do in fact try to ignore higher dimensions when the power level would not make sense, and will soon get even stricter standards for this, so I am not going to accept this. Sorry.
 
So is somebody interested in asking Sandman31 and PrinceOfTheMorning for input here, or should we close this thread?
 
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