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Problem Acausality type 4 Lucifer's

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PrinceStories

PrinceStories

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When I did a little investigation into Lucifer's profile I found something that confused me in the powers and abilities section, especially for acausality type 4 with justifications like this:
Acausality (Type 4; Yahweh's plan is stated to have been an all-encompassing "scheme" which contains all of creation,[12] with Destiny of the Endless having described events such as Michael's arrival at his home as all a part of this "scheme"[13] and Destiny having been the source of cause and effect in Yahweh's cosmos.[14] Lucifer specifically is described as having escaped his function from the scheme and as such the causality of it[1] )
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In the last scan, Lucifer is declared to be escaping from his function and out of Yahweh's plan and scheme which is the causality system in vertigo. However, this's what confuses me because Lucifer get Acausality type 4 because he existed in the void, which Yahweh also describes the void as outside his plan ad seen in this scan. So it can be concluded that Lucifer can only escape Yahweh's plan while in the void, so this does not make Lucifer get Acausality type 4 concretely.

So I think this should be given a limited Acausality type 4 because he had to go into The void in order to escape Yahweh's plan and function.
 
PrinceStories said:
However, this's what confuses me because Lucifer get Acausality type 4 because he existed in the void, which Yahweh also describes the void as outside his plan ad seen in this scan. So it can be concluded that Lucifer can only escape Yahweh's plan while in the void, so this does not make Lucifer get Acausality type 4 concretely.

So I think this should be given a limited Acausality type 4 because he had to go into The void in order to escape Yahweh's plan and function.
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Upon re-reading Lucifer #75, I have to agree with this interpretation. We currently use two scans to justify this notion on Luficer's profile.
Escaped his function and went outside of the Presence's plan.
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The second scan and its whole "I'm happy to see you here, outside the plan" schtick , as you said, is in reference to how they're in a void outside "the plan" (which just means creation/existence in context).
p_75_23%2B%2528Copy%2529.jpg
p_75_24%2B%2528Copy%2529.jpg
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As for the second scan and the "you escaped your function" statement, on top of what I mentioned above, it's also likely in reference to how this same issue described Lucifer/Samael coming to defy the original plan the Presence had for him and rebelling, as opposed to some metaphysical transcendence over his plan's causality, necessarily.
p_75_08%2B%2528Copy%2529.jpg
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ProfectusInfinity said:
Upon re-reading Lucifer #75, I have to agree with this interpretation. We currently use two scans to justify this notion on Luficer's profile.

The second scan and its whole "I'm happy to see you here, outside the plan" schtick , as you said, is in reference to how they're in a void outside "the plan" (which just means creation/existence in context).

As for the second scan and the "you escaped your function" statement, on top of what I mentioned above, it's also likely in reference to how this same issue described Lucifer/Samael coming to defy the original plan the Presence had for him and rebelling, as opposed to some metaphysical transcendence over his plan's causality, necessarily.
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Good point
 
The Void isn't just how he escaped the Plan. It's where he went to go “outside” the Plan. He escaped it when he gave the fire that God lit in him when the worlds were being made to Mazikeen. By forgetting his namesake and nature as Lightbringer, by leaving Hell as the Devil, by no longer calling himself Samael, etc….

He expressed all those things as tricks of the Presence and by leaving all that behind him, he now found freedom and by going to the Void went outside the Plane influence entirely.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
By forgetting his namesake and nature as Lightbringer, by leaving Hell as the Devil, by no longer calling himself Samael, etc
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When Lucifer left hell, it did not make him able to escape from Yahweh's plan, by not calling the name of sameal anymore is not a strong reason to prove he can escape from Yahweh's plan.

VeryGoofyToddler said:
He expressed all those things as tricks of the Presence and by leaving all that behind him, he now found freedom and by going to the Void went outside the Plane influence entirely.
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Well it's true that Lucifer found his freedom by going to the void where things like space, and time, and the soul of his echo there faded away which we can interpret to mean that all his functions and Yahweh's plans in the void also faded away. That's why I recommend it limited Acausality type 4 to be applied in his profile.
 
PrinceStories said:
When Lucifer left hell, it did not make him able to escape from Yahweh's plan, by not calling the name of sameal anymore is not a strong reason to prove he can escape from Yahweh's plan.
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Not at all what I was saying. Doing all of those was the overarching reason to led him to that point.
PrinceStories said:
Well it's true that Lucifer found his freedom by going to the void where things like space, and time, and the soul of his echo there faded away which we can interpret to mean that all his functions and Yahweh's plans in the void also faded away. That's why I recommend it limited Acausality type 4 to be applied in his profile.
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He became a new man and the next time we see him, he is in the Void. He thought Yahweh was still testing him with the potlatch as his function to say “no” to his Creator despite that not being the Presence intention because he admits the plan grows from all directions even if he didn't mean it to affect Lucifer so personally.
 
If combined lucifer 2000 and 2018, lucifer 2018 is not bound by the book of destiny when he erases his name, he is outside the concept of destiny
 
PrinceStories said:
I don't want to delete it, but just want to recommend limited Acausality type 4 to be applied in its profile with such justification.
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If he gets it only by going to the void, then it's a function of the void not his physiology, it won't count for him I believe
 
Jaakor48 said:
If he gets it only by going to the void, then it's a function of the void not his physiology, it won't count for him I believe
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Basically, the reason why it can also lead to his function is because Lucifer did not fulfill his proper function as The Devil. By going to the void, he totally let go of his role and existence in creation.

Nothing special, He is unbound by causality and action by Yahweh because there is nothing there. That's what makes me confident enough to give limited Acausality type 4 in Lucifer's profile with such justification but if someone solid Acausality type 4 justification then I don't mind.
 
PrinceStories said:
When I did a little investigation into Lucifer's profile I found something that confused me in the powers and abilities section, especially for acausality type 4 with justifications like this:

In the last scan, Lucifer is declared to be escaping from his function and out of Yahweh's plan and scheme which is the causality system in vertigo. However, this's what confuses me because Lucifer get Acausality type 4 because he existed in the void, which Yahweh also describes the void as outside his plan ad seen in this scan. So it can be concluded that Lucifer can only escape Yahweh's plan while in the void, so this does not make Lucifer get Acausality type 4 concretely.

So I think this should be given a limited Acausality type 4 because he had to go into The void in order to escape Yahweh's plan and function.
Click to expand...
Lucifer did not get rid of his own nature by going into the void, he ended his own function while in creation and went into the void. The plan covers only creation, but Lucifer turned away from everything that came from his nature and his father and was free from them. But the bitter truth was that Lucifer was created by someone else and he would not be able to get rid of it. That's why he wouldn't be able to achieve true freedom. But he was completely freed from its effects on creation and himself. From now on, she would no longer be bound to his order and would be free forever.
 
LazyMortician said:
Lucifer did not get rid of his own nature by going into the void, he ended his own function while in creation and went into the void. The plan covers only creation, but Lucifer turned away from everything that came from his nature and his father and was free from them. But the bitter truth was that Lucifer was created by someone else and he would not be able to get rid of it. That's why he wouldn't be able to achieve true freedom. But he was completely freed from its effects on creation and himself. From now on, she would no longer be bound to his order and would be free forever.
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I'm quite considering that, I think Acausality type 4 Lucifer's justification needs to be explained more in order to get the context.
 
LazyMortician said:
However, his reasons are very clear in his profile. Maybe we can edit the wording a bit. But as I said, I prefer Aca5 for that.
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I'm not convinced enough for acausality type 5 what with so many anti feats that can refute it. But I think you can explain it in detail.
 
PrinceStories said:
I'm not convinced enough for acausality type 5 what with so many anti feats that can refute it. But I think you can explain it in detail.
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It has been shown to be completely independent, giving up its function in a system based on cause and effect. It is no longer tied to an order and, as I said, it unchangeable. Only Yahweh can do this, but from the evidence we have, it appears that He cannot adhere to a pattern forever, as it has been shown that He will no longer interfere with Lucifer.
 
LazyMortician said:
It has been shown to be completely independent, giving up its function in a system based on cause and effect. It is no longer tied to an order and, as I said, it unchangeable. Only Yahweh can do this, but from the evidence we have, it appears that He cannot adhere to a pattern forever, as it has been shown that He will no longer interfere with Lucifer.
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Is this acca4? Beyond cause and effect, this book contains knowledge about the past, future, and present
•It was erased from destiny
•You shall find no word of him in here
•Explained directly by the author
 
LazyMortician said:
Considering that the book contains all of creation, perhaps it could be in its "limited" state.
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He is not bound by destiny, let alone only Yahweh's plan, Yahweh does not even have power in the realm of other gods and destiny covers everything, although some people go beyond the knowledge of the book
 
Ramasugita11 said:
He is not bound by destiny, let alone only Yahweh's plan, Yahweh does not even have power in the realm of other gods and destiny covers everything, although some people go beyond the knowledge of the book
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The Plan details everything in Creation with nothing left in error. The point of Yahweh leaving was to let his Creation function without his influence.

He also literally said he can fix Creation or destroy it completely. So obviously everything within Creation is under his control since he made all that in its entirety. The Book also has a script that naturally write itself because Yahweh created Creation and the Endless came as side-effects to fill that role. It’s very much the opposite, it’s the Presence who reaches everyone while the Book has like loopholes although not many.
 
Ramasugita11 said:
What are you talking about? It is in the domain of other gods, it is the sea of brahma
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The Sea of Brahma in most depiction isn’t in Creation. It’s also not within the domain. The Ocean isn’t physically tied to hence why that’s where Lucifer was came into being before Creation was made. The realms just has access to that same place, not that it physically exist within it.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
The Sea of Brahma in most depiction isn’t in Creation. It’s also not within the domain. The Ocean isn’t physically tied to hence why that’s where Lucifer was came into being before Creation was made. The realms just has access to that same place, not that it physically exist within it.
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Yeah, that means yahweh is limited to his creation
Brahma, shiva and vishnu are a trinity in their realm, it is beyond yahweh's reach. Yahweh is limited
 
Ramasugita11 said:
Yeah, that means yahweh is limited to his creation
Brahma, shiva and vishnu are a trinity in their realm, it is beyond yahweh's reach. Yahweh is limited
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If Lucifer wasn't limited to these planes and he was stronger than the resident, it applies to Yahweh as well. Yahweh is not limited to his creations and most statements come from beings who don't like him and suppose they can do stuff that's outside him despite being proved untrue. Raguel mentions how he made it all and is beyond it all.

We also have not merged Black Label with the older Vertigo story so stop using this nonsensical logic.
 
Lucifer is stronger than yahweh, yahweh is limited, the presence is not.
When Yahweh disappeared/died, the presence was always there because he was everything, he was everywhere

VeryGoofyToddler said:
If Lucifer wasn't limited to these planes and he was stronger than the resident, it applies to Yahweh as well. Yahweh is not limited to his creations and most statements come from beings who don't like him and suppose they can do stuff that's outside him despite being proved untrue. Raguel mentions how he made it all and is beyond it all.

We also have not merged Black Label with the older Vertigo story so stop using this nonsensical logic.
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Yahweh no longer exists, but the presence is always there, that's why Lucifer can't die, because the presence is always there and Yahweh no longer exists
Yahweh, like other gods, was born in dreaming realm and formed by humans, presence was not
 
Ramasugita11 said:
Lucifer is stronger than yahweh, yahweh is limited, the presence is not.
When Yahweh disappeared/died, the presence was always there because he was everything, he was everywhere


Yahweh no longer exists, but the presence is always there, that's why Lucifer can't die, because the presence is always there and Yahweh no longer exists
Yahweh, like other gods, was born in dreaming realm and formed by humans, presence was not
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I'm not going to continue if you literally differentiate Yahweh and the Presence.
 
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