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Marvel Comics Astral Form and Telepathy revisions
- Thread starter Eseseso
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- 18,712
- 12,971
- Thread starter
- #82
Aight, here we go (and I'll add these later to the sandbox):
From Silver Surfer Vol. 3 #140:
- Consciousness is the blueprint by which all worlds and times were born, to control one's own consciousness is to control everything, is to become everything.
- Reality exists through consciousness, it is always changing, being shaped by our thoughts, the Weaver is a technology that creates realities coming from our consciousness, these realities created by consciousness are no less real than the primary realities from which they originate.
- Mind and Soul are equals, within your soul/consciousness you find the realm of pure thought, which is boundless and formless, and which takes shape according to ourselves.
- There is no difference in the truthfulness of the worlds of the unconscious or the concrete reality, there are those who claim that all the universe is no more than a holographic projection.
- Each soul harbors an entire universe of devils and angels.
- Those universes have layers, and there are a infinite number of demons.
- Consciousness is shaping the universe, minds are expanding the universe itself and building physics and mathematics.
- When souls die, they unite with the universe, like diamonds sparkling in the landscape of the space-time, and souls exist in a higher dimensional frequency. Furthermore, to reach/see/affect the souls of the dead, one must interfere with a higher dimensional frequency.
- The Astral Plane is the realm of the mind as well as an abstract dimension shaped by the minds of those present.
I will work on finding more stuff for higher-dimensional souls and higher-dimensional telepathy/mind stuff.
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- 4,477
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Okay, so I'm finally getting back to this thread. Whatever message I was supposed to respond to seems to have gotten loss in the previous mess, so can someone tell me what exactly is new for me to comment on?
- 18,712
- 12,971
- Thread starter
- #86
Although I have also posted scans above about souls being higher-dimensional in addition to minds being higher-dimensional (though Efi seems to be fine with higher dimensional minds/telepathy so it seems that souls scaling in potency are the main issue for him).
- 18,712
- 12,971
- Thread starter
- #87
Also, while Ultima said he'd respond, if he doesn't respond by tomorrow, I'll probably try to see how to best move forward, and what in the sandbox needs to be edited based on responses earlier in the thread (such as NEP). I'll also try integrating the above scans.
- 18,712
- 12,971
- Thread starter
- #88
With all due respect, why do all of them need to directly address one dissenting opinion?
All of them, plus Planck, answered to the best of their ability based on their own beliefs after reading the scan.
- 4,477
- 4,551
In regard to Eficiente's points they seem more to be a problem of semantics than actually disagreeing with the OP from what I can tell. It looks like he's saying while he has no issue with Astral Plane being Low 1-A he takes issues with how you're proving the HDE of the people who battle on the Astral Plane. If I'm getting that wrong I apologize, but going with that train of thought, I don't really think I have much to address there. I believe the evidence given is good enough for HDE because it appears the Astral Plane is Low 1-A and if these people are able to reside in and battle on the astral plane with their astral selves and even manipulate it as Charles shows, I figure that should be good enough for HDE for Astral Forms.
- 18,712
- 12,971
- Thread starter
- #90
Thank you very much for your response.
I am busy with some other stuff, but either today or tomorrow I'll begin organizing things and trying to come up with a final summary.
And in case I didn't say it earlier, Nonduality was cut for Glass's reasoning, as it was admittedly too vague like he said.
- 18,712
- 12,971
- Thread starter
- #91
So, looking at some of the most crucial stuff:
Also, I added the scans in my post above to the OP and the sandbox, and also added Subjective Reality, Type 2 Info Manip, and Reality Warping to the powers of an Astral Form in the sandbox based on those same scans.
Any further thoughts?
- HDE (particularly Low 1-A): Accepted by @Eficiente (though he disagreed with souls scaling in potency to it), @Duedate8898, @Planck69, @LordTracer, and @Theglassman12, so it seems to be accepted. Telepathy potency in Marvel scaling to this also seems to be accepted by everyone asides from @Eficiente.
- NEP: Most are unsure and Glass believes that it is only Type 2. Since the statement of "between being and non-being" is far more directly connected to Astral stuff than the Ego statement as it directly mentions the Astral Plane and calls it "the realm of mind and spirit" in the same scan, I think that Glass is right and that Type 3 should be removed. Aspects are still 1,2, and 3.
- NPI for affecting an astral form: Seems to be agreed upon by most voting staff besides @Eficiente.
- Limited Causality/Plot Manip: Not enough discussion on this.
- Limited Info Manip: Not enough discussion on this.
- Concept Manip Type 3: Asides from @Duedate8898 and @Eficiente, the other voting staff seem to all agree on this.
Also, I added the scans in my post above to the OP and the sandbox, and also added Subjective Reality, Type 2 Info Manip, and Reality Warping to the powers of an Astral Form in the sandbox based on those same scans.
Any further thoughts?
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- 12,673
- 9,625
Good job on collecting all this stuff - it's great.
I don't have much knowledge on the NEP stuff but rest looks good. Wouldn't be opposed to having Causality and plot stuff as a "possibly" ability instead of straight up. Same with Information.
I don't have much knowledge on the NEP stuff but rest looks good. Wouldn't be opposed to having Causality and plot stuff as a "possibly" ability instead of straight up. Same with Information.
- 18,712
- 12,971
- Thread starter
- #93
Thank you for your response.
Tbf, I do have them as "limited" as they are all on the personal level.
- 18,712
- 12,971
- Thread starter
- #94
After seeing my post above regarding the most contentious abilities and the ruling votes on them, what do you think?
What needs to be done in your opinion before this can be added to the Marvel Comics main page?
Also, I would like to link it to the profiles of all magic users in Marvel (as even basic magic in Marvel has been repeatedly shown to be capable of affecting Astral forms), so once everything is settled I would like to request some pages be unlocked.
- 18,712
- 12,971
- Thread starter
- #98
Also, this means all telepathic based mindhax in Marvel (magic or otherwise) scales to the higher-dimensional potency of the Astral Plane, aka Low 1-A. Of course, this only applies to telepathic mind manipulation.
Excellence616
He/Him- 6,125
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Soon Ultima will come.
- 18,712
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- Thread starter
- #104
Tomfer
He/Him- 1,496
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- 168,510
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What has been uniformly accepted by our staff members here can probably be applied now.
What currently still needs to be properly evaluated and what has been rejected by one or more of our staff members here?
What currently still needs to be properly evaluated and what has been rejected by one or more of our staff members here?
- 18,712
- 12,971
- Thread starter
- #117
So what needs to be looked at still is:
NEP (Type 2, Aspects 1, 2, and 3): Most are unsure and Glass believes that it is only Type 2. Since the statement of "between being and non-being" is far more directly connected to Astral stuff than the Ego statement as it directly mentions the Astral Plane and calls it "the realm of mind and spirit" in the same scan, I think that Glass is right and that Type 3 should be removed. Aspects are still 1,2, and 3.
Limited Causality/Plot Manip for affecting an Astral Form: Not enough discussion on this.
Limited Info Manip (Type 2) for affecting an Astral Form: Not enough discussion on this.
Subjective Reality, Type 2 Info Manip, and Reality Warping: I have added these abilities and justifications for them to the P&A of Astral Forms.
The rest has been agreed upon by a majority of staff, if not all of them
- 168,510
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Well, Eficiente is good at evaluating these types of threads by my experience, but he seems to be outvoted here.
Can you provide easy to understand explanations for what currently needs to be evaluated here please?
Can you provide easy to understand explanations for what currently needs to be evaluated here please?
- 18,712
- 12,971
- Thread starter
- #119
I mean, for NEP, Glass agreed with NEP Type 2 (and apparently had no issue with Aspects 1,2, and 3) but not Type 3, so I removed Type 3 NEP but kept Type 2 NEP for Astral forms.
The new powers for Astral Forms (Info Manip Type 2, Reality Warping, Subjective Reality) need approval since I added them later on.
For affecting an Astral Form, there have not been enough opinions from staff on Limited Info Manip Type 2, Limited Plot Manipulation, and Limited Causality Manipulation. The latter 2 come from the fact that an Astral Form is also one's personal narrative, so to affect it is to affect one's personal narrative.
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