High School DxD Universe Discussion Thread

[Dragongod224]

but I have already found the solution to all this, it is called training.

I already say that but look like no one see that

 

[Dragongod224]

Future issei is absolute monster he defeat Ruma Idra's main body would be able to destroy DxD of the Present and Past. (2-C)

Defeat a 2-C character with just a fire breath

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

At no point is it said that Katerea Ophis's Snake is at the level of the original Leviathan and the scale and values are fine.

Shalba was at the level of the original Beelzebub and he was the leader of the Maou faction. That implies he’s stronger than Katerea, which adds up because Beelzebub is second behind Lucifer.

Heck, Azazel was about to use Balance Breaker against Cruzurey. He’s not stronger than any of them. Katerea with Ophis’ snake was nearly equal to Serafall according to the narration. Now, consider this from the early volumes.

“To tell you the truth, out of the three factions of the God, the Fallen Angels and the Devils, the Devils have the least power. We are actually in a tight spot but we are still safe because the current Maou-samas have powers equal to those of the previous Maou-samas.”

The current Maou were initially meant to be equal to the previous Maou, not above. That means Katerea, being nearly equal to Serafall, was not quite equal to the previous Leviathan.

Even in Zero, Bidleid as the Beelzebub was portrayed as the leader above Tefarme Leviathan. This follows up with Ajuka being promoted to a Beelzebub behind Lucifer.

Point is, Katerea was at best equal to the previous Maou.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Shalba was at the level of the original Beelzebub and he was the leader of the Maou faction. That implies he’s stronger than Katerea, which adds up because Beelzebub is second behind Lucifer.

Ah, no.

Just because Shalba Ophis's Snake is on the level of the Original Beelzebub doesn't mean Katerea Ophis's Snake is on the level of the Original Leaviathan. Neither does Azazel wanting to use BxB against Creuserey Ophis's Snake mean anything on this scale.

Katarea Base scales to be able to fight Azazel Base even if he's somewhat inferior to him and Katerea Ophis's Snake is between 10 to 100 times his Base.

DxD Zero doesn't mean anything either.

You're accusing everyone of headcanon when you're the only one using headcanon.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Ah, no.

Just because Shalba Ophis's Snake is on the level of the Original Beelzebub doesn't mean Katerea Ophis's Snake is on the level of the Original Leaviathan. Neither does Azazel wanting to use BxB against Creuserey Ophis's Snake mean anything on this scale.

Katarea Base scales to be able to fight Azazel Base even if he's somewhat inferior to him and Katerea Ophis's Snake is between 10 to 100 times his Base.

DxD Zero doesn't mean anything either.

You're accusing everyone of headcanon when you're the only one using headcanon.

Even more true considering the "over" statement.

As long as one possesses this, it could be ten times, or even a strengthening of over a hundred times is possible.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

And TMI, I agree with most of your previously mentioned stuff regarding the Youkai, Saji, and Ross. Though, I'd probs change the reasoning a bit. If VP Saji would be relative (same general tier) to Grendel, I'd argue that the Yasaka Ultimate Class statement was incorrect. (Ex: That statement was made when she was empowered by Kyoto, and when she wasn't empowered by Kyoto, she was able to fight a Bandersnatch. Something that teams of Ultimate Class Devils couldn't do.) (One thing I disagree with is the "Half of Grendel" thing for reasons mentioned in the other thread, not something I personally disagree with, I just don't think the site would accept that.)

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

One thing I disagree with is the "Half of Grendel" thing for reasons mentioned in the other thread, not something I personally disagree with, I just don't think the site would accept that.

Well, I think it was worth a try.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Well, I think it was worth a try.

You could definitely ask staff members about the feat and if it'd be usable for a 50% value if you want.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Ah, no.

Just because Shalba Ophis's Snake is on the level of the Original Beelzebub doesn't mean Katerea Ophis's Snake is on the level of the Original Leaviathan. Neither does Azazel wanting to use BxB against Creuserey Ophis's Snake mean anything on this scale.

Katarea Base scales to be able to fight Azazel Base even if he's somewhat inferior to him and Katerea Ophis's Snake is between 10 to 100 times his Base.

DxD Zero doesn't mean anything either.

You're accusing everyone of headcanon when you're the only one using headcanon.

Nah, I have only used canon statements but you people are basing everything on your fanon numbers using Boost multipliers, which are based off fanon calcs at that.

According to what I have seen today:

• DxD Zero doesn’t mean anything.
• Kokabiel is somehooow excluded from the statement that Mirana is not on the level of a Cadre. Somehow, Kokabiel is not a Cadre. Should I repeat this once again? That’s how ridiculous the assertion is. You ignore this canon and the fact that Kokabiel is a Cadre so that Mirana can be stronger than Kokabiel. But I am the one using headcanon, seriously?
• Wings mean nothing
• Classes mean nothing (even though it’s explicitly stated to be a rank of a devil’s power)
• Pawn value in the Rating Game system means nothing (even though it’s literally a plot point that it’s based on strength so players won’t cheat the system with God class beings)
• The narration saying Dulio’s team members are ultimate class at best also means nothing.
• Issei, Azazel and Kuroka stating that Issei is Ultimate class means nothing. The three of them were somehow lying in three different volumes.

Do you guys understand how many canon information you have disregarded, just to fit the multipliers from Boost? Everything you guys are now doing is because you want to fit the numbers from Boost and nothing more. I’m not saying all the information is wrong but some of these are just egregious…

What exactly excludes Kokabiel alone from this statement?

In order to support those two, Rossweisse-san fired off large bursts of offensive magic. Mirana-san created an extremely large spear of light (its power was almost on the same level as a Fallen Angel Cadre) to easily obliterate her spells.

No, seriously. Is Kokabiel somehow not a Cadre? The entire logic now is to make Kokabiel orders of magnitudes below Mirana, which goes against this statement, just to fit some multiplier numbers.

I definitely am not the one using headcanon here…

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

And TMI, I agree with most of your previously mentioned stuff regarding the Youkai, Saji, and Ross. Though, I'd probs change the reasoning a bit. If VP Saji would be relative (same general tier) to Grendel, I'd argue that the Yasaka Ultimate Class statement was incorrect. (Ex: That statement was made when she was empowered by Kyoto, and when she wasn't empowered by Kyoto, she was able to fight a Bandersnatch. Something that teams of Ultimate Class Devils couldn't do.) (One thing I disagree with is the "Half of Grendel" thing for reasons mentioned in the other thread, not something I personally disagree with, I just don't think the site would accept that.)

The Yasaka statement was moreso a general statement of her power. Don’t think it takes into account the leylines, because iirc, Yasaka with the leylines briefly overpowered Yu Long.

Also, Yasaka fought the Bandersnatch with Kunou who can enhance her power.

Kunou followed us on the teleport, and ended up on the battlefield with us. However, even though Kunou had a young body, she was clad in a powerful Youki, and her golden hair had turned white. This was something that showed a glimpse of the Divine Beasts, Masaki Gitsune. Kunou added her own aura on Yasaka-san, increasing her mother's Youkai power. It was a mother-daughter combination. Youkai who were proud of their strength also fought right next to Yasaka-san. While we were fighting the group of Artificial Devils, Rias and Yasaka-san shouted at me.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Also, Yasaka fought the Bandersnatch with Kunou who can enhance her power.

Kunou didn't have that ability yet bro, she gained that in Shin right?

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Kunou didn't have that ability yet bro, she gained that in Shin right?

Not sure honestly, I just remembered it’s a thing but I don’t feel like going back to check volume 12 rn.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Not sure honestly, I just remembered it’s a thing but I don’t feel like going back to check volume 12 rn.

“I won’t just stand here and do nothing! I am Kyoto Youkai’s leader, Yasaka’s daughter, Kunou!”

Kunou summoned her power and… her blond hair turned white! Her body is now emitting an overwhelming aura unfitting of this little girl.

“I also trained daily! If I want to walk the path with you guys I need to be strong!”

Our nine tail princess shouted confidently!

When Kunou’s hair changed colour, even Nurarihyon stood up from his seat and exclaimed.

“… her hair has turned white… is she going to turn into Hakumen no Mono Kyubi no Kitsune… [23]”

When the Elder cat heard him, she shook her head.

“No, boss. This isn’t Hakumen no Mono Kyubi no Kitsune. This is more like a Beast god from [Hakkenden], similar to Masaki Kitsune. It becomes [Koryuu] [24] when it gets stronger… maybe it is because of her relationship with that Sekiryuutei boy that it is affecting her growth…?” [25]

Quote from the end of DX 2 (Latter half of Arc 4), and the statements given imply that it's a recent development since they had only met once before V12.
And since Kiba saw Kunou in V9 and gave the narration in V12, and didn't note anything different about her, we can assume she was in her base state.
Also

The Yasaka statement was moreso a general statement of her power. Don’t think it takes into account the leylines, because iirc, Yasaka with the leylines briefly overpowered Yu Long.

This'd just confirm Saji being around that Maou Class in VP as TMI suggested previously.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

This'd just confirm Saji being around that Maou Class

He has the exact same Pawn value as Yu Long under the same tournament rules, which is 5. The same as Ouryuu and one higher than Rossweisse (5).

I might actually need to make an extensive thread to address all of this in detail (class ranking, multipliers, Pawn values, debunking the Maou class claims for these characters), but I have work and exams right now. Perhaps I’ll make the thread late October or November.

All of this is way too egregious. It’s like back in the days when DxD Issei was ranked below Serafall.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Quote from the end of DX 2 (Latter half of Arc 4), and the statements given imply that it's a recent development since they had only met once before V12.
And since Kiba saw Kunou in V9 and gave the narration in V12, and didn't note anything different about her, we can assume she was in her base state.
Also

Okay, yeah. Just checked volume 12 and Kiba doesn’t say Kunou is increasing Yasaka’s power. She did have an army of youkai there though.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Okay, yeah. Just checked volume 12 and Kiba doesn’t say Kunou is increasing Yasaka’s power. She did have an army of youkai there though.

Most of her Youkai were getting outclassed by V9 Base Issei right? Or was that an anime only thing?

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

you're the only one using headcanon.

then all you have is a statement... in the face of all the evidence you've been unable to deny.

a statement whose validity depends on Kokabiel being the only Cadre we've seen fight... when we've seen Armaros, Azazel, and Baraqiel fight.

i'd rather use evidence than a random ranking system.

your entire argument boils down to crying that Mirana can't be stronger than Kokabiel and Grendel can't be stronger than the Old Maou when it's already been proven without the need for energy values or the Boost multiplier that Kokabiel and the Old Maou's strength was surpassed by the Fullpower of the first CxC and all those that scale to it.

instead of continuing to repeat the same thing try arguing some of the following points

1) Issei BxB is unable to use 13 or more Boost OR Issei CxC is unable to use 8 or more Boost.

2)The first Issei CxC doesn't need to use Solid Impact Booster with 14 Boost to fight Grendel.

3)Dragons have no resistance to magic and Grendel has no enhanced resistance to magic.

4)Rossweisse is unable to inflict even the slightest amount of damage to Grendel with her magic.

5)Mirana can't annihilate Rossweisse's magic.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

a statement whose validity depends on Kokabiel being the only Cadre we've seen fight... when we've seen Armaros, Azazel, and Baraqiel fight.

What? That’s not the case at all. Is this a lack of reading comprehension?

The statement is that Cadres are stronger than Mirana. Mirana is broadly described as inferior to a Cadre. Cadres include Kokabiel, Azazel, Barakiel, Armaros, Penemune, etc. This simply means that all of these Cadres, including Kokabiel, are stronger than Mirana. Kokabiel alone is not somehow excluded from the Cadres. This isn’t hard at all.

Funny enough, one of the reasons used to get Boost accepted was because it’s integral to the lore of the Heavenly Dragons. But now, the lore concerning the ranking system is somehow “random” and irrelevant, even though it’s far more integral than stacking Boost multipliers is. Not only that, but you also claimed DxD Zero means nothing - the same DxD Zero we used to get the cosmology blog accepted.

Again, all of this hand waving is just to fit in the Boost multipliers. When the simple conclusion is to scale Kokabiel above Mirana as the novel literally tells us.

Kokabiel and the Old Maou's strength was surpassed by the Fullpower of the first CxC

Kokabiel, yes. Did you misunderstand?

• CxC Issei is stronger than Kokabiel.
• CxC Issei is weaker than any Maou, because he’s literally called equivalent to an Ultimate class devil three times, including by himself. When he was getting schooled by Diehauser, he even exclaims that it’s because Diehauser is Maou class.
• Kokabiel and every other Cadre is stronger than Mirana.

Those are my points.

But no worries. When I’m done with my exams and I’m not too swamped with work. I will try to make an extensive thread to cover the following points:

• class ranking system and how integral it is to the lore (hopefully we remember this lore argument is how Boost got accepted in the first place)
• Pawn value in the Rating Game tournament and why it’s based on strength.
• why the amount of wings correlates to power level for angels and fallen angels.
• why Kokabiel is stronger than most of the current main characters and Mirana,
• why Issei, Sairaorg, Xenovia, Saji, etc are not Maou class.
• why Grendel isn’t stronger than a Maou
• why Dulio’s team members should scale to Ultimate class (as literally stated in the novel)

Etc. This is dependent on when I’m free enough, could be next month.

---

You know something else funny? When you disregard the class ranking system, you are basically dunking on your own argument that Boost should be accepted because it’s integral to the lore. I don’t really care about Boost multipliers but I do care about lore accuracy.

Heck, the alternative scaling you brought up, in case Boost wasn’t accepted by staff, was based on the class rankings to scale the characters! But now it’s “random” and irrelevant?

Go ahead and shit on your own argument because I’ll be sure to bring it up. The class ranking system is 10x more central to the lore and world building than the Boosted Gear is. Get the class ranking removed and I’ll simply point out it’s much more central to the lore than Boost.

The ability of one single dragon is not somehow more important than a ranking system used by literally all the mythologies. We don’t need to point out how ridiculous that idea is. Be serious, dude.

I’m “complaining” because you guys are now basically attempting to put wrong information in the profile, and now you want to disregard something as important as the ranking system at that. The system is much, much more important to the lore than the Boosted Gear which Ishibumi demonstrates not to really care about time and again. Boost as an ability has always been plot dependent.

So again, you’re shooting yourselves in the foot with that argument.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Most of her Youkai were getting outclassed by V9 Base Issei right? Or was that an anime only thing?

They said the youkai brought along with Yasaka were those confident in their strength.

Besides, sometimes weaklings can matter in large numbers. A group of middle class beings working together can beat an inexperienced high class devil according to Shin DxD volume 1.

It does depend on the context.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

CxC Issei is stronger than Kokabiel.

Kokabiel is stronger than the first CxC without Boost, but inferior to the first CxC with Boost.
Something that I already showed you without the need for energy values or the multiplier and that you have not been able to deny because you refuse to answer since you know that you cannot deny it.

The first CxC without Boost is Ultimate Class, its Fullpower is Maou Class.

Your problem is that you are not understanding very simple things.

Does the narrative say that Mirana is inferior to the Cadres? Yes
Does the narrative say that Issei CxC did not surpass the Maou until after Diabolos Dragon? Yes

But the problem is that what I saw in the novels shows the opposite.

I believe in what I see, because what I see gives me evidence.
The narrative does not give any evidence, it only asks that you have faith.

All this comes down to your pure disbelief.

If you prefer to believe in the narrative, that's fine, go ahead, it's your problem, not mine.

But the point is that you have not been able to deny the evidence that has been shown.

I have asked you multiple times to show me something that denies the evidence and you give nothing, you just repeat the same arguments that are based only on faith. I asked you to answer a question in the previous thread and you did not do it. I asked you to give arguments for the points that could deny the evidence and you give nothing. You just repeat like a parrot the same nonsense. If you cannot give any real argument that is not based on pure faith then just do not talk about this subject again.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

• class ranking system and how integral it is to the lore (hopefully we remember this lore argument is how Boost got accepted in the first place)
• Pawn value in the Rating Game tournament and why it’s based on strength.
• why the amount of wings correlates to power level for angels and fallen angels.

IT DOESN'T MATTER

why Kokabiel is stronger than most of the current main characters and Mirana,

FALSE

why Issei, Sairaorg, Xenovia, Saji, etc are not Maou class.

LIAR

why Grendel isn’t stronger than a Maou

SUPER FALSE

why Dulio’s team members should scale to Ultimate class (as literally stated in the novel)

Give up now

 

[Dragongod224]

There was a system to rank a Devil’s power… Low-class Devil, Middleclass Devil, High-class devil, Ultimate-class Devil, Maou-class Devil, and Transcendental-level… I wonder what was my current power level? The Devil government assessed me as a High-class Devil level though. The Dragon who resided inside me, the Red Dragon Emperor Ddraig, laughed as he said.
[Kukuku, it has been a while since you were looked down upon, partner.
They think you are at most a High-class devil or an Ultimate-class one.]
Well, I wouldn’t blame them as I usually looked just like a normal high schooler.
By the way, Ddraig, how strong do you think I am now?
[With that condition, I would say that you can give a Maou-class a good fight. But, if you use ‘that’ form, you can even fight a Transcendental-class. I am sure that these guys didn’t think that they would meet a Devil of this class.]




devil rank issei power level in shin high school Dxd volume 1 Life.1, Part 3

 

[MasqueTLDF]

They said the youkai brought along with Yasaka were those confident in their strength.

Besides, sometimes weaklings can matter in large numbers. A group of middle class beings working together can beat an inexperienced high class devil according to Shin DxD volume 1.

It does depend on the context.

Ok, Low Class beings can be "confident in their strength, and considering that the context is likely a bunch of Low Class beings vs a Maou Class being, the analogy seems kinda irrelevant.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Btw, I'm not gonna completely remove the class scaling, just set stricter rules for it due to how inconsistent it is. And if @Burning_Full_Fingers has a problem with that, being stricter for the sake of accuracy, then we'll know who's using head canon and who isn't. Also, I think it'd be best to get as many current DxD supporters/knowledgeable members together as possible for when that thread is made.

 

[BlackeJan]

Nah, I have only used canon statements but you people are basing everything on your fanon numbers using Boost multipliers, which are based off fanon calcs at that.

Explain BFF cause if that’s actually true then these r nothing more then inflation

 

[Dragongod224]

Fuhahaha! Good! That flow of demonic power! The demonic-power I can feel right now is that of an ultimate-class devil. A little bit more then you would reach that of a Maou, Rias Gremory! Looks like you have a talent equal to that of your brother’s!”


Buchou’s shot started to get pushed back, and started to lose its shape! He couldn’t be defeated even with that amount of demonic-power!? But Kokabiel also wasn’t uninjured. His black robe was tattered in places, and his hands were bloody. But his ability to block demonic power certainly decreased.


Akeno-san widened her eyes and got enraged. She continued to use lightning but they were all deflected by Kokabiel’s wings. Barakiel is the leader of the fallen-angels. A thunder user who has the alias “Holy-Lightning”. In terms of basic fighting ability, he is said to be on par with the Viceroy of the fallenangels, Azazel. And Barakiel is Akeno-san’s…… Kokabiel laughed loudly after nullifying Buchou’s attack completely.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Explain BFF cause if that’s actually true then these r nothing more then inflation

it isn't lol, there's a reason that a majority of the knowledgeable members here are disagreeing.

 

[BlackeJan]

it isn't lol, there's a reason that a majority of the knowledgeable members here are disagreeing.

Just cause members r disagreeing doesn’t mean it’s true. Plenty of people will agree on something just cause it’s an upgrade (same for opponents wanting a downgrade).

Plus outliers and PIS don’t even exist anymore so people create CRTs and it get passed without a glance

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Just cause members r disagreeing doesn’t mean it’s true. Plenty of people will agree on something just cause it’s an upgrade (same for opponents wanting a downgrade).

Plus outliers and PIS don’t even exist anymore so people create CRTs and it get passed without a glance

I have no idea what you're talking about but ok

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Copy and Pasted this from the sandbox. Thoughts? Made it as unbiased and impartial as I could and I'll add scans later.

This CRT is to get a general rule added to the verse page that should be followed when scaling the series, and or get this added to the discussion rules page for DxD.

Spoiler: Classes

Angel: Low, Middle, High, Ultimate, Seraph
Fallen Angel: Low, Middle, Cadre
Dragon: Low, High, Dragon King, Heavenly Dragon, Dragon God
Devil: Low, Middle, High, Ultimate, Maou, Special (Super Devils and Transcendental devils may or may not be equivalent to this.)
Grim Reaper: Low, High, Ultimate (Executive may or may not be equivalent to this.)

1. In comparison to Boosts, the class system has been very inconsistent throughout the series despite having equal importance.
2. Narratively, the class system would lead you to believe that X character is stronger than Y, when via onscreen feats (And the Boost ability), Y is stronger than X.
3. There are examples of this inconsistent method of scaling the characters (class system) contradicting the consistent method of scaling the characters. (Boost)
4. The Class System doesn't only base it's scaling around strength, but other abilities as well, like achievement, royalty, leadership, speed, durability, technique, skill, ability to gather powerful teammates, potential, and other metrics. So we can't reliably determine what "X is Maou-Class" refers to exactly and we shouldn't default to assuming that it just means strength.
5. Characters that are ranked below certain classes can perform feats or output strength equal to a higher class. (Ex. Tannin is Ultimate Class but has Maou Class strength)
6. The range of strength varies widely for every class, X and Y can be in the same class but be millions of times apart via feats. So when someone says, "Z is High Class", we don't know where that is due to the ranges being so varied.
7. Strength of classes vary between race. (Ex: Grim Reapers, there Ultimate Class is comparable to Devils Maou Class.) So when someone says, Y is Ultimate Class, most of the time, the description isn't detailed enough for us to know which race's class they are referring to. Especially when there are so many races in DxD (Angels, Fallen Angels, Devils, Dragons, Grim Reapers) that all are important and all are amongst the cast. It requires far too many assumptions to claim that it always refers to that of the Devil when contextually, it doesn't.
8. The top tiers of one class bleeds in to the bottom tiers of the next so claiming that X character that is a high tier of ultimate class isn't a low tier of maou class is very unreasonable.
9. Most class statements are just the author telling the reader where he believes a characters strength is via a character in the story, and because neither the author nor the characters are infallible, we should evaluate these statements with scrutiny. (Especially due to the presence of multiple authors.)
10. Some statements become outdated after a very short period of time due to the characters training. (Train during and between Volumes and can grow massively in short periods of time.)

For non knowledgeable members, the class system could be compared to the ninja ranking system in Naruto.

For the above reasons, I'll propose changes to how we evaluate this system and statements related to it.

1. We only use Classes to determine a minimum of a characters stats, not a cap.
2. We only use statements that are mostly sound, if any contradictions are present, we use their feats to determine which is more accurate.
3. Boosts take precedence in importance over Classes if there're contradictions between the two found.
4. Following this CRT, we make a blog determining the ranges of each class.
5. Write off certain statements that are contradicted.
6. Statements only apply at the time they are made.
7. If contradictions apply between the two authors, Ishibumi's word takes precedence.
8. Statements from the main series (DxD 1-25, Shin DxD 1-4) outweighs statements from secondary sources. (SD 1-3, DX 1-7, ED, 0, JDxD 1-2)

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

It seems fine to me, determining the ranks of each class was something I wanted after we had values we could use.

One thing, you forgot about the gods, originally we only knew the levels of the gods as God Class, Chief God Class and the Gods of the Top 10 Strongest Beings, but later the concepts of Non-Combatant God Class/Low-Level God and Combatant God Class/High-Level God were introduced.