(Staff Needed) DxD Cast Stat Revision 1

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

It's the past, and the truth is simple, the Old Maou was surpassed, I don't see why to bother that we have a bunch of characters that surpass the power of some guys who have been dead for centuries, and all those characters are below the New Maou.

You didn’t even address anything I said. Dead for centuries doesn’t mean anything when the main characters are getting matched and overpowered by Cadre-class attacks.

Answer the simple questions:

- Are these random characters matching Irina and Xenovia in volume 22 stronger than a Cadre? No, they are all weaker than Barakiel.

- Is Mirana stronger than a Maou? No, because her strongest attack is literally compared to a Cadre.

- Are the Cadres stronger than a Maou? Yes or no?

- Did the narrative not compare Dulio’s angels to an Ultimate class Devil and their peerage? Yes or no?

Dude, your logic would have Rossweisse orders of magnitudes above a Cadre when she was overpowered by a Cadre class attack? Are you not listening? I am not even referring to the old Maou right now. Rossweisse or Akeno are not stronger than Kokabiel alone.

Again, please stop derailing, changing the topic from the original post is bad enough without spamming messages in the thread. I don't want to make a report and I've asked nicely many times already, discuss the other characters in the GDT, not here.

Kokabiel is right here and I’m disagreeing with his scaling placement. Remove him out of your thread and I’ll stop disagreeing with his scaling values.

I have also disagreed with Grendel being above BxB Azazel, and CxC Issei and BxB Sairaorg being Maou class. They are all in this topic, so it’s not derailing.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Are these random characters matching Irina and Xenovia in volume 22 stronger than a Cadre?

Are they stronger than Kokabiel? Yes, stronger than Barakiel? NO

Is Mirana stronger than a Maou?

Stronger than the Old Maou? Yes

Are the Cadres stronger than a Maou? Yes or no?

Kokabiel is stronger than the Old Maou? NO
Armaros, Barakiel and Azazel are stronger than the Old Maou? Yes

Did the narrative not compare Dulio’s angels to an Ultimate class Devil and their peerage?

Dulio Base is stronger than Old Maou? Yes
Dulio Base stronger than New Maou? NO


In any case, everything you have is born of disbelief. I'll end this discussion here.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Dulio Base is stronger than Old Maou? Yes
Dulio Base stronger than New Maou? NO

I’m talking about his team members. Dulio is surely stronger than the old Maou based on matching partial Dragon Deification.

Kokabiel is stronger than the Old Maou? NO
Armaros, Barakiel and Azazel are stronger than the Old Maou? Yes

Armaros, Barakiel and Azazel are somehow now orders of magnitudes above the Maou that rivaled them during the war? It’s especially ridiculous since the Maou were at a numbers disadvantage and still competed against them.

Those random angels in Barakiel and Dulio’s are now somehow above Kokabiel and the Maou because you want your Boost multipliers to somehow make sense.

It’s funny that Kokabiel has been turned into a scapegoat to accommodate this ridiculous scaling. Complete nonsense, no offense. I know we all read DxD but I can’t understand this nonsensical hand waving of canon information to justify these multipliers.

But you know what, I’m done. This reminds me why I didn’t want to get back into stats revisions. I’m not going to be part of updating outright false information and headcanon into our character profiles.

Officially bowing out of this revision, good luck.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Okay, now that we've gotten rid of the problem, what's next?

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Okay, now that we've gotten rid of the problem, what's next?

Alright, no need for offhanded remarks toward anyone regardless of how heated the argument is please? But I'm planning to make a discussion rule for classes next and changing some values for the characters I mentioned previously so this'll be on hold for a bit.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Ok, I'm doing some stuff too, so I can wait, we're already in the final stretch of all this anyway.

Posted
By problem I was referring to the discussion I was having with Burning_Full_Fingers, not Burning_Full_Fingers

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

But I'm planning to make a discussion rule for classes

Please tag me for that in the discussion thread because I am going to disagree with it. Let me know in advance when you want to make the thread.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Please tag me for that in the discussion thread because I am going to disagree with it. Let me know in advance when you want to make the thread.

I can't tag staff members but I can message you in advance, and I'll show a draft of the thread in the GDT.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I can't tag staff members but I can message you in advance, and I'll show a draft of the thread in the GDT.

That’s fine.

 

[Dragongod224]

I'm planning to make a discussion rule for classes next and changing some values for the characters I mentioned previously so this'll be on hold for a bit.

That's I am saying we need that

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

That's I am saying we need that

But I don’t think it even has a bearing on the discussion we’ve just had. For instance, nobody tried to scale Issei to middle-class because there’s exceptions to the rule.

I was trying to say CxC is Ultimate class because it was stated as such by Issei, Kuroka and Azazel to be Ultimate class in strength. Like Issei explicitly says it’s Ultimate class in power level.

Sensei once made a comment that my power is comparable to High-class Devils and higher. My True-Queen form is equal to Sairaorg-san in his Balance-Breaker form. The truth is, I think I can even put up a good fight against Ultimate-class Devils. But if the people from the Lucifer group who are considered the strongest among Devils can’t beat that monster, then it would be impossible for me as well! I have a bad feeling about this impossible request. Then Ophis says it.

The crux of the issue was @MasqueTLDF saying it’s Maou class instead.

I’m not sure it even affects what we’re talking about.

That aside, @MasqueTLDF I think you should get this thread closed and open up a new one.

 

[Dragongod224]

Bro I am say that as example not scale Issei to middle-class

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Bro I am say that as example not scale Issei to middle-class

Yeah, I didn’t say you tried to scale Issei to middle-class. I think you are misunderstanding me, but let us continue in the discussion thread.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

because he is stronger than the Old Maou.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

but seriously, no kidding, I'm starting to consider that we should forget about Kokabiel's statement about "a little bit stronger and you'd be Maou Class"

Shalba Ophis's Snake who is between 10 to 100 times his base is the first to be directly compared to a member of the Old Maou, and Shalba's Base is comparable to Issei CxC, so clearly both should be Ultimate Class, Issei CxC doesn't reach the Maou Class without the use of Boost, but after Volume 16 he's already at that level just with CxC without the need for Boost.

 

[BlackeJan]

Yeah this is where I disagree with scaling regarding boosts

It’s the fact that Issei’s boost should be a separated attack since when he boosts be becomes stronger and uses a stronger attack with those boosts so for him to be as strong as those boosts isn’t correct

Also regarding those scaling to certain section, iirc in order to move up a rank u must pass a test while getting stronger so just cause Rias becomes Ultimate Class, that doesn’t mean she’s all of a sudden as strong as Issei. Do we even know if she gotten as strong as Issei cause Issei’s BB >>> Base Rias

I still stand by this. Where’s the evidence that Base Rias is as strong as Issei’s BB or the ap from previous vol?

 

[MasqueTLDF]

OK
Time to continue this now that I've updated a few things. (If you agreed or disagreed before, check the first link in the OP again as the scaling is a bit different.) I'll batch a few rebuttals below and I'd like everyone who participated to give a final vote.
1. CxC Issei from Volume 10-15 is Ultimate Class, I agree. But he's Maou Class from V16 onwards, and there's no basis for thinking he isn't. Especially when he's stated to be Maou-Class in that form in V22, and there's no indication that he got vastly more powerful in between that period of time. (Not saying he's not stronger, he's always training after all, but it's just not by a significant degree.)
2. One character in one class can stomp someone in the same class, we've seen it before (BxB Issei vs Diodora, Koneko vs Issei, Mira vs Issei.) and therefore the "Diehauser>CxC=CxC is Ultimate" and "Bedeze>BxB Sai=BxB Sai is Ultimate" arguments are really dumb.
3. Kokabiel is not the standard for Fallen Angel Cadre's by feats, he's easily the weakest amongst them so he shouldn't be the standard. 9He got bodied by V3 BxB Vali and almost bodied by an amped Rias.) It makes sense for him to be lower-Ultimate as was demonstrated. And in regards to the Maou statement, the strength of the Old Maou is very inconsistent between them being comparable to Kokabiel, to base Azazel, then to a tenth of True Form Sirzechs. It's an obvious outlier and should be thrown out the window. We haven't seen a single fight involving them and don't know how strong they actually are.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

1. CxC Issei from Volume 10-15 is Ultimate Class, I agree. But he's Maou Class from V16 onwards, and there's no basis for thinking he isn't. Especially when he's stated to be Maou-Class in that form in V22, and there's no indication that he got vastly more powerful in between that period of time. (Not saying he's not stronger, he's always training after all, but it's just not by a significant degree.)

OK

One character in one class can stomp someone in the same class, we've seen it before (BxB Issei vs Diodora, Koneko vs Issei, Mira vs Issei.) and therefore the "Diehauser>CxC=CxC is Ultimate" and "Bedeze>BxB Sai=BxB Sai is Ultimate" arguments are really dumb.

Agreed.

Kokabiel is not the standard for Fallen Angel Cadre's by feats, he's easily the weakest amongst them so he shouldn't be the standard. 9He got bodied by V3 BxB Vali and almost bodied by an amped Rias.) It makes sense for him to be lower-Ultimate as was demonstrated. And in regards to the Maou statement, the strength of the Old Maou is very inconsistent between them being comparable to Kokabiel, to base Azazel, then to a tenth of True Form Sirzechs. It's an obvious outlier and should be thrown out the window. We haven't seen a single fight involving them and don't know how strong they actually are.

In accordance.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Bump

 

[MasqueTLDF]

OK

Agreed.

In accordance.

Just wondering, should I upgrade you to an agree for everything else now?

 

[SCARECROW1983]

OK
Time to continue this now that I've updated a few things. (If you agreed or disagreed before, check the first link in the OP again as the scaling is a bit different.) I'll batch a few rebuttals below and I'd like everyone who participated to give a final vote.
1. CxC Issei from Volume 10-15 is Ultimate Class, I agree. But he's Maou Class from V16 onwards, and there's no basis for thinking he isn't. Especially when he's stated to be Maou-Class in that form in V22, and there's no indication that he got vastly more powerful in between that period of time. (Not saying he's not stronger, he's always training after all, but it's just not by a significant degree.)
2. One character in one class can stomp someone in the same class, we've seen it before (BxB Issei vs Diodora, Koneko vs Issei, Mira vs Issei.) and therefore the "Diehauser>CxC=CxC is Ultimate" and "Bedeze>BxB Sai=BxB Sai is Ultimate" arguments are really dumb.
3. Kokabiel is not the standard for Fallen Angel Cadre's by feats, he's easily the weakest amongst them so he shouldn't be the standard. 9He got bodied by V3 BxB Vali and almost bodied by an amped Rias.) It makes sense for him to be lower-Ultimate as was demonstrated. And in regards to the Maou statement, the strength of the Old Maou is very inconsistent between them being comparable to Kokabiel, to base Azazel, then to a tenth of True Form Sirzechs. It's an obvious outlier and should be thrown out the window. We haven't seen a single fight involving them and don't know how strong they actually are.

I agree with this

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Just wondering, should I upgrade you to an agree for everything else now?

Yes

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Thought I'd mention that Azazel (12) has more wings than Baraqiel (10) and Kokabiel (10). (By BFF's logic means Base Azazel>Baraqiel, and Kokabiel=Baraqiel.) But that's obviously not true, first of all, Azazel and Baraqiel specifically are stated to have the same strength despite the difference in wings. And if all Cadres had the same strength, a statement like that either wouldn't be made since it'd be common knowledge within the series, or the statement would be comparing Kokabiel to the as well.

Akeno-san widened her eyes and got enraged. She continued to use lightning but they were all deflected by Kokabiel’s wings. Baraqiel is the leader of the fallen-angels. A thunder user who has the alias “Holy-Lightning”. In terms of basic fighting ability, he is said to be on par with the Viceroy of the fallen-angels, Azazel. And Baraqiel is Akeno-san’s…… Kokabiel laughed loudly after nullifying Buchou’s attack completely.

This tells us multiple things, 1. Not all Cadre's are of equal strength. 2. Scaling characters based on their number of wings is inconsistent. 3. Baraqiel = Base Azazel (Backed up by Azazel vs Grendel and Baraqiel vs CxC Issei.) 4. CxC Issei, Base Azazel, Baraqiel, and Grendel are Maou Class (If you want to argue that CxC Issei/Grendel aren't, Azazel=Braqiel Baraqiel=CxC Issei (Post DxD amp) Azazel=Grendel CxC Issei>=Grendel)

[With that condition, I would say that you can give a Maou-class a good fight. But, if you use ‘that’ form, you can even fight a Transcendental-class. I am sure that these guys didn’t think that they would meet a Devil of this class.]

Referring to CxC

Even if I asked, Barakiel-san simply wasn’t going to wait for me; rays of lightning burst forth from his hands, and he continuously fired them towards me! I continuously evaded his attacks in the air. The bolts of lightning which missed struck a corner of the field, generating an enormous explosion! His power was truly extraordinary. Although I’ve recently had to fight against people who were stronger than me, Barakiel-san’s strength was not to be underestimated. Whilst evading the bolts of lightning and closing our distance at the same time, I was able to enter into a melee battle, which I was best at. Barkaiel-san easily dodged my punches, and I was struck by one of his punches in return. Although I had been hit squarely by a solid punch, it didn’t carry enough power. This was all thanks to having fought against those strong opponents so many times. —Even if I was fighting against Barakiel-san in melee combat, I still had an advantage over him! I began to go on a rampage against Barakiel-san in mid-air. Sometimes I would close our distance, and sometimes I would pull away from him. We continued our battle like that in mid-air. In the midst of our fight against each other, Barakiel-san suddenly asked me a question.

CxC Issei > Baraqiel (The later showings of him Boosting are after he loses most of his energy from using DxD so we can't really quantify how strong Issei was in the latter half of their fight.)

The Fist of the Lion King that was said to be equal to a Maou-class Devil, and could supposedly even reach the Gods in this tournament. While there were times when he would be teased as the one-man army because of his unbelievably strong arms, the teamwork with his servants was also magnificent as there were only a few small mistakes. There were rumours that the team of the next head of Duke Agares’ clan, Seekvaira Agares, who was eliminated in the preliminaries, would be joining their team, and it looked like the Lion King team would be rampaging in the main stage as well. Shown next on the monitor was — the colour of crimson.

Also, the same Sairaorg that fought Grendel on equal footing is Maou Class. (Doesn't refer to BDtB as that's shown to be HD/God Class and that's what the "reach" statement refers to.)

“………The “Vanishing Dragon” belongs to the side of the Fallen-Angels, right?”

“That’s right. Azazel is gathering Sacred Gear possessors who has a “Longinus”. I don’t know what he is thinking, but it’s definitely something not good. The “Vanishing Dragon” is the top fighter among them. I heard that he is the fourth or fifth strongest out of all the strong people there including the leaders of Grigori. At this point, he is far stronger than you, who is his rival.”

Fourth strongest!?

……That’s why he was able to defeat Kokabiel who we couldn’t even stand up against. Looks like we are in a serious situation. Isn't it, Ddraig? Xenovia then looks at Asia.

This statement implies that half of the Cadres are weaker than BxB Vali, and the other half are stronger, so there is literally no reason that Kokabiel (Who got blitzed by Vali) should be comparable to Azazel/Baraqiel (Can easily beat Vali while handicapped.), we know that most Cadres have different strength.
All in all, gg no re, I solo the argument.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

For Staff, you can CTRL F and search the name of any characters that are used to scale another in the CRT.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Bump again.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Bump again

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Since this is dealing with mostly scaling to accepted values, I suppose I can agree. Though it should be noted, the inner workings of the verse are unknown to me.

@Propellus @ActuallySpaceMan42 @DarkDragonMedeus @AbaddonTheDisappointment can you take a look here when you have time?

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Since this is dealing with mostly scaling to accepted values, I suppose I can agree. Though it should be noted, the inner workings of the verse are unknown to me.

@Propellus @ActuallySpaceMan42 @DarkDragonMedeus @AbaddonTheDisappointment can you take a look here when you have time?

Thank you, and should I add exact values to the blog now or should I do that later?
Update: Did it now to hopefully make it simpler.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

First of all, a long time no see to Burning Full Fingers. And neutral for now, need to look over more later, but will follow for now.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

First of all, a long time no see to Burning Full Fingers. And neutral for now, need to look over more later, but will follow for now.

All discussion is seemingly done. They are awaiting staff votes.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Then a simple TLDR summary could speed this up.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Then a simple TLDR summary could speed this up.

Since most of the scaling can trace back to Issei who's values are accepted, I'll use him as reference.

Spoiler: Rias

1: Scales to V2 12 Boosts Issei.
2. accepted multiplier
3. Scales to a V9 BxB Issei with a 16x multiplier.
4. same multiplier as before
5. Value of 8. divided by 2^18 (accepted multiplier)
6. same reason as 2 and 4
7. Scales to V14 SIB 14 Boosts Issei
8. Scales to SIB V20 Issei
9. Same as 2/4/6 + Boost (x2)
10. 2^18x (Accepted Scale Mail Multiplier) to 7.
11. Scales to PDxD Issei

Spoiler: Sairaorg

1. Scales to 14 Boosts V9 WDR Issei
2. Can Split the Earth in half. (References for common feats calc)
3. Scales to V14 SIB 14 Boosts Issei
4. Scales to PDxD Issei

Spoiler: Saji

1. Scales to Base V2 Issei.
2. Scales to Base V5 Issei.
3. Scales to V14 SIB 14 Boosts Issei
4. Same reasoning as 3.

Spoiler: Kokabiel

1. 8x an V3 Rias amped with her RP form and 19 Boosts.

Spoiler: Azazel

1. Scales to V14 SIB 14 Boosts Issei
2. Defeated an opponent who previously dominated his base.
3. Scales to V19 SIB Issei amped with 14 Boosts + the accepted Scale Mail multiplier of 2^18x. Scales to a creation feat involving a Sun, Planet and multiple moons.

Spoiler: Grendel

1. Scales to V14 SIB 14 Boosts Issei

Spoiler: Ddraig

1. Scales to V19 SIB Issei amped with 14 Boosts
2. Can double power
3. Scales to half of "V19 SIB Issei amped with 14 Boosts + the accepted Scale Mail multiplier of 2^18x" Scales to a creation feat involving a Sun, Planet and multiple moons.

Spoiler: Albion

1. Scales to V19 SIB Issei amped with 14 Boosts
2. Scales to half of "V19 SIB Issei amped with 14 Boosts + the accepted Scale Mail multiplier of 2^18x" Scales to a creation feat involving a Sun, Planet and multiple moons.

Spoiler: Ophis

1. Scales to V19 SIB Issei amped with 14 Boosts x4

Sorry for the length (and for the wait as well, was busy all day) but this is about as TLDR as I can get.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Bump

 

[BlackeJan]

I would like the staff to also notice or know that just cause they are in a certain class doesn’t mean they would scale to that tier. Moving up a class while it does require to become more powerful, also has intelligence, recognition, and how well the king is with etiquette and knowledge.

For example, Base Rias <<<< Base Sairoag who is High 6A but all of a sudden when she’s promoted to Ultimate class she’s as strong as him when it’s already been know she can’t beat him no matter what and the latter is ALWAYS training so she wouldn’t be able to catch up no matter what. This also plays into effect when CC Issei beat BB Sairaog and the former is only a low class.

I also wanna say but should we now look into more into the boosts? cause while they do use a calc, it’s heavily relied on the boosts as well which is them going beyond proportional lvls and they have never had any feats to put them at certain lvl like anything High 6-A or being a stat buster yet non of them (except for the god tiers) had shown any of those feats?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

I also wanna say but should we now look into more into the boosts? cause while they do use a calc, it’s heavily relied on the boosts as well which is them going beyond proportional lvls and they have never had any feats to put them at certain lvl like anything High 6-A or being a stat buster yet non of them (except for the god tiers) had shown any of those feats?

We went over that in the original thread discussing the validity of the boosts. We settled they were to be rated with possibly, because while they don't have the feats, the boosts are explicitly shown to be legit.

 

[BlackeJan]

We went over that in the original thread discussing the validity of the boosts. We settled they were to be rated with possibly, because while they don't have the feats, the boosts are explicitly shown to be legit.

All I’m seeing more is them being High 6A or being small star lvl hence why im asking this. It’s in the blog as well

It still needs to be looked for characters scaling because of their class

 

[MasqueTLDF]

For example, Base Rias <<<< Base Sairoag who is High 6A but all of a sudden when she’s promoted to Ultimate class she’s as strong as him when it’s already been know she can’t beat him no matter what and the latter is ALWAYS training so she wouldn’t be able to catch up no matter what. This also plays into effect when CC Issei beat BB Sairaog and the former is only a low class.

Lol, Rias has been shown to defeat Ult Class Devils before. And we have DC feats and statements in a close enough range of High 6-A, like V5 BxB Issei's Low 6-B Feat and BxB Sairaorg's Low 5-B Statement. And Base Sairaorg definitely falls in between the two lore-wise.

I also wanna say but should we now look into more into the boosts?

No, we already had 4 CRTs dedicated to this topic. Don't redirect the focus of this thread.

cause while they do use a calc, it’s heavily relied on the boosts as well which is them going beyond proportional lvls and they have never had any feats to put them at certain lvl like anything High 6-A or being a stat buster yet non of them (except for the god tiers) had shown any of those feats?

Again Low 6-B feats, Low 5-B Statements, multiple 5-B statements, and an at least 4-C feat. Please don't be disingenuous Boosts only go 3 tiers above the best DC feats/statements at their worst

 

[Dragongod224]

Mitsuya is atleast low 2-C according to Roygun and other statement and higher with BxB he can create universe

 

[MasqueTLDF]

We went over that in the original thread discussing the validity of the boosts. We settled they were to be rated with possibly, because while they don't have the feats, the boosts are explicitly shown to be legit.

Sorry but could you please @DarkDragonMedeus, I'd rather not have this thread devolve anymore and it's gone on for a pretty long time already.

Mitsuya is atleast low 2-C according to Roygun statement and higher with BxB he can create universe

I disagree, we don't know Mitsuya's mastery of the basic abilities of Innovate Clear. And please stay on topic.

 

[Dragongod224]

I disagree, we don't know Mitsuya's mastery of the basic abilities of Innovate Clear. And please stay on topic.

Yes, that true it's more like a Innovate Clear power if Mitsuya's not mastered.


I think we also has a weapon tier list for high school Dxd.