(Staff Needed) DxD Cast Stat Revision 1

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

if we apply the Scale Mail multiplier the Euclid Base gives us: 166.776434020175244598388671875 Petatons

This puts Euclid BxB above Shalba Ophis's Snake which was comparable to the Original Beelzebub(Old Maou)

The numbers crunching shouldn’t take precedence over narrative implications. Granted, I don’t think it’s outlandish for BxB Euclid to be comparable to the old Maou.

However, Grendel or CxC Issei (before Dragon Deification) being Maou class doesn’t have any narrative weight and it’s contradicted by feats that show Issei and Sairaorg being dominated by Maou class devils.

---

Also the statements about BxB Issei being high class is in volume 11. He can only release power above that with Triaina and CxC according to Azazel.

And Kuroka is explicitly called High class in DX 2, which makes sense since she was weaker than Issei.

In front of our eyes… Nekomata-onee-sama and Kappa started an impressive battle! When the Kappa shot a strong jet of water from his mouth, Kuroka dodged that with a clone jutsu!

That Kappa, he’s able to fight equally against a High-class Devil, Kuroka!

 

[Dragongod224]

We need a scaling chain
First we take a issei as a example and compare other to issei following this step

1. First issei is a main example to compare other

2. We take each volume issei power level for compare that volume character

3.We would not compare a character that doesn't fight other one because that create a problem also their is not a proof is that one stronger than other one until they fight or they fight each other before

4.We would add a note to all dxd profile that all dxd character are getting stronger each volume by doing training and doing other things as we know

That's what I think

 

[Dragongod224]

And also author statment
If author sey that character is that level and we find out that is contradict the other character power level than

For example -
Issei is maou class in CxC but can't fight other maou class we can sey that other one is peak of maou class or likely that type of example

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

@MasqueTLDF, I think you should make another thread after we decide on the scaling details in this thread.

And also author statment
If author sey that character is that level and we find out that is contradict the other character power level than

For example -
Issei is maou class in CxC but can't fight other maou class we can sey that other one is peak of maou class or likely that type of example

Indeed, but the problem is that Issei and Sairaorg weren’t stated to be Maou class. They were stated to be Ultimate class and had poor performances against Maou class devils, so I simply can’t see how they can be argued as Maou class.

Their feats and statements place them at Ultimate class.

 

[Dragongod224]

Indeed, but the problem is that Issei and Sairaorg weren’t stated to be Maou class. They were stated to be Ultimate class and had poor performances against Maou class devils, so I simply can’t see how they can be argued as Maou class.

Their feats and statements place them at Ultimate class.

That's how I sey take that particular volume

 

[Dragongod224]

And also if that author statment sey

That's character is that class and that is confirm already and we take after that volume for example

Ex.-
In volume one issei issei lower than a lower class it confirm until next volume confirm that he is that class for example

Ex.-
And volume two issei issei mid class then until next volume confirm that issei is high class we think issei is only mid class or peak of mid class or likely that level

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

At this point it's worth remembering that we have the Old Maou, the New Maou and Above Maou Class/Non-Combatant Gods.

I don't think it's implausible that Grendel and those who scale to him are above the Old Maou but they are definitely below the New Maou.

 

[Dragongod224]

At this point it's worth remembering that we have the Old Maou, the New Maou and Above Maou Class/Non-Combatant Gods.

I don't think it's implausible that Grendel and those who scale to him are above the Old Maou but they are definitely below the New Maou.

That's right we don't forget that

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Dawg it's always when I can't talk where everyone else decides to.

What would be needed besides the simple logic that if 2 people hit something in unison the target will be hit by the sum of their energies, it's not like Ura and Ibaraki Douji would have used a special attack or something, they literally just raised their clubs and hit Rossweisse's attack together.

It's not just a matter of me not accepting it, it's a site rule.

Grendel's clones were being protected by Ladon's barrier which as we know can only be damaged by beings of CxC's level from Volume 17.

That wouldn't matter if Rossweisse was comparable to Grendel/CxC Issei to begin with.

About Grendel's matter, I understand how you feel, I also had the same feelings when I was making the DxD Scale. But then I realized something, Grendel has always been known for having a toughness and high defenses and Evil Dragons in general are stupidly tenacious, being able to hold their own against the entire Gremory Group is more a merit for Grendel than a demerit for them.

Still doesn't really back anything up.

Will try to check later.

No, they don’t. Ajuka and Sirzechs are above the Heavenly Dragons, as Sirzechs was stated to be able to easily defeat Hades.

Might be misremembering but I thought I recalled seeing a statement somewhere comparing Sirzechs to Ddraig/DxD Issei. Either way, sure, but I considered them in the same general tier despite having large gaps between them.

Hades is on par or slightly above the Heavenly Dragons based on his feats against Vali and Issei.

Ok sure.

No, it was not created for Super Devils.

I disagree.

Definitely not. All showings of Issei and Sairaorg fighting against Maou class opponents involve them being dominated and losing badly.

Only when they're outhaxed.

So, no Maou class feats.

Erm, i just showed some

Are you agreeing with me? Because you’ve shown Euclid matching Crimson Blaster with a Dragon Shot and stopping Issei’s Solid Impact without his armour.

No, My initial point was that CxC Issei and BxB Euclid were comparable, the scans I showed were of Euclid far beyond his normal strength which in no way discredits my points

Both of which depict a huge difference in strength.

Yeah, because Euclid amped himself lol.

You provided evidence in favor of what I claimed…

i did the opposite but ok.

The strength increase from Boost is gone, not the inherent physical strength of Issei. Diehauser doesn’t nullify kinetic force, it’s just special abilities.

And the armor is a special ability, do you think anyone in the verse can manifest super dragon armor that amps their stats and lets them fly?

He blitzed and dominated Issei without taking him seriously, just as Bedeze did with Sairaorg

Because of their respective hax.

. I’m not sure how you’d interpret those scenes as Ishibumi meaning to portray Issei and Sairaorg at Maou class. They just have zero feats on that level.

Aside from the dozen I've shown you mean?

Moreover, old Strada and Xenovia were shown on that level in volume 19 and harmed CxC Issei, and neither of them are Maou class. If I’m not mistaken, Xenovia only says she can take on a Maou in volume 23 after wearing Issei’s armour.

Xenovia and Strada were way above CxC Issei in Volume 19 and is it directly stated that she needs the armor to fight Maou class opponents?

And because he’s plain weaker, which is why he got badly blitzed and overpowered..

He's not.

I just checked the chapter again and he wasn’t even boasting, actually. He literally acknowledged Sairaorg’s strength but said he was on a different level because he’s often called Maou class.

And Maou class varies between the characters in the class, two characters can be Maou Class and still be 100s to 1000s of times greater than the other. And I interpret it as boasting as Maou Class is definitely an achievement worth bragging about. (regardless of circumstance)

There’s no way Sairaorg was Maou class there.

There is a way, which is the way I've been arguing.

No, he really is not.

I disagree.

That’s where your mistake is.

1. Kuroka wasn’t ultimate class.

“…It’s no good. I understand best nee-sama’s power. Nee-sama’s power rivals that of an ultimate-class devil. For Buchou and Ise-senpai…Even with the power of a former-Dragon King, I don’t think you can capture my sister who excels in both genjutsu and senjutsu…”

She was overpowered by BxB Issei, who’s compared to high class devils. As a matter of fact, volume 11 confirmed Issei was equivalent to a high tier High class devil.

She wasn't overpowered by BxB Issei, and by the time she started to get serious, Arthur came to retrieve them. And Issei was going to use Boosts against the serious Kuroka. And I'm arguing that Volume 13 BxB Issei (after getting the stronger body) is Ultimate Class, not Volume 11 BxB Issei, so idk what your point is.

2. Issei literally says Kuroka is on par with a high class devil in DX 2, when she fought the salamander.

You're misunderstanding, Kuroka IS a High Class Devil because she became a stray before she could reach a higher rank, but she has the power of an Ultimate Class. Like how Tannin is stuck at Ultimate Class because there're already four Maou despite being Maou Class in strength.

That Kappa, he’s able to fight equally against a High-class Devil, Kuroka!

So Kuroka being ultimate class was either taken out or Koneko was exaggerating, which is not outlandish since she thought Issei and Tannin working together wouldn’t take Kuroka. Lol.

“…It’s no good. I understand best nee-sama’s power. Nee-sama’s power rivals that of an ultimate-class devil. For Buchou and Ise-senpai…Even with the power of a former-Dragon King, I don’t think you can capture my sister who excels in both genjutsu and senjutsu…”

And the latter statement was only made because of her Senjutsu/Genjutsu skill, she'd trick them via illusions with the latter, then attack their souls with the former.

Huh? That shouldn’t be how it works.

But it is.

Narratively, Grendel or CxC at that point were simply not Maou class.

Narratively, Grendel is a later villain and via shonen rules should be stronger than the previous villains if you'd like to argue narrative. And I proved that they were.

He claimed that he was never inferior to Grayfia, which is a definitive lie or him being delusional. His entire statement is bogus.

If the statement was made in Zero, then it's irrelevant as I've explained before.

There are 2 things I want to say.

1) In Dx 4 (Volume 23.5) when Issei CxC and Genshirou BxB clash, that was after Issei used Pseudo DxD to launch the Infinity Blaster that destroyed the battlefield, so Issei wasn't at his full power.

More reasoning for why Saji is weaker that everyone else is arguing. If he's supposedly stronger than Grendel, why would he lose to a weaker version of someone equal to Grendel?

2) As I said I don't consider the Issei CxC and Euclid BxB fight from volume 16 to scale since Euclid held back in it. but I do consider the one from volume 17.

Based.exe

But I want to be sure we're on the same page on this.


Breaking it down by part

-Unlike the previous time, this time EuclidBxB decides not to hold back and releases all his power, Issei CxC feels his power and considers that he is inferior to Sirzechs, Grayfia and HIMSELF (making it clear that he is also inferior to Sirzechs and Grayfia).

This statement doesn't refer to power, but moral inferiority.

……That sure is an amazing amount of demonic-power. If you get hit by that directly, even a High-class Devil will perish. This is him being serious.

Reason 1: He praised Euclid's power.

But, I don’t know why. I think he’s far inferior to Sirzechs-sama and Grayfia-san. Even though he’s showing such amazing power right in front of me.

Reason 2: He doesn't know why he considers Euclid inferior to them and states that it's not for power right after. (If power was the reason Euclis was inferior, he'd say that instead of saying. "I don't know why he's inferior'

……Putting his power aside, his existence itself is too shallow. That’s why I can’t feel this is something great.

Reason 3: "Putting his power aside" Meaning again, power isn't the reason. And states that the reason he's inferior is due to being a shallow person. (His beliefs about devils.)

……Oh well, I’m also shallow myself. Still I guess I’m better than him.

Reason 4: Then when comparing his own shallowness to Euclid's, he states that he's better than Euclid.

-Euclid BxB uses 14 Boost and launches an attack on Issei CxC

-Issei CxC uses Solid Impact Booster, Euclid mocks and says that it cannot stop his attack indicating his superiority over Issei CxC Solid Impact Booster

-Euclid BxB's attack with 14 Boost hits but Issei does not move and takes advantage of Euclid BxB's surprise (14 Boost) to throw a punch that breaks his armor.

-The Euclid BxB emphasizes his superiority over Issei CxC Solid Impact Booster with his fist with 14 Boost and does not understand how that happened, then it is revealed to us that Issei used a Red Wyvern to boost himself.

using current values

CxC: 119.38322164335907995648 Yottatons
CxC Solid Impact Booster: 716.29932986015447973888 Yottatons
CxC Solid Impact Booster with a Red Wyvern: 1.43259865972030895947776 Ronnatons

Euclid BxB with 14 Boost is superior to Solid Impact Booster but inferior to Red Wyvern, so at least 716.29932986015447973888 Yottatons

using a reverse scale we get
Euclid BxB: 43.71944151978481932 Zettatons

if we apply the Scale Mail multiplier the Euclid Base gives us: 166.776434020175244598388671875 Petatons

This puts Euclid BxB above Shalba Ophis's Snake which was comparable to the Original Beelzebub(Old Maou)

and puts Euclib Base above Rias 19 Boost and Kokabiel.

Um, I'm not disagreeing, but could you please format this in a neater way. (With scans)

The numbers crunching shouldn’t take precedence over narrative implications. Granted, I don’t think it’s outlandish for BxB Euclid to be comparable to the old Maou.

However, Grendel or CxC Issei (before Dragon Deification) being Maou class doesn’t have any narrative weight and it’s contradicted by feats that show Issei and Sairaorg being dominated by Maou class devils.

I disagree

---

Also the statements about BxB Issei being high class is in volume 11. He can only release power above that with Triaina and CxC according to Azazel.

Characters in DxD don't have a stagnant strength.

And Kuroka is explicitly called High class in DX 2, which makes sense since she was weaker than Issei.

Wrong FRA

@MasqueTLDF, I think you should make another thread after we decide on the scaling details in this thread.

Yeah, a class strength blog/thread is definitely necessary.

Indeed, but the problem is that Issei and Sairaorg weren’t stated to be Maou class. They were stated to be Ultimate class and had poor performances against Maou class devils, so I simply can’t see how they can be argued as Maou class.

They were stated to be Ultimate Class and Fought Ultimate Class opponents in Volume 9-11, they're obviously much stronger now.

Their feats and statements place them at Ultimate class.

I disagree.

At this point it's worth remembering that we have the Old Maou, the New Maou and Above Maou Class/Non-Combatant Gods.

I don't think it's implausible that Grendel and those who scale to him are above the Old Maou but they are definitely below the New Maou.

I definitely think that Grendel is weaker than someone like Serafall, but not by a significant amount. (100-1000x) And differentiating old from new maou is definitely important considering inexperienced, teenage new maou were already stronger than the old maou by a significant amount, and they've only gotten stronger over the centuries.

Anyway, if you guys'd like, we can halt this thread here, discuss the scaling of the different classes together in the GDT, and return once we agree? I think that'd be for the best. (+ the arguing is kinda cringe, I want yes men lol)

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Did you miss the part where Issei CxC Post-Diabolos Dragon is stronger than his previous version?

Or the part where Issei CxC Solid Impact Booster is inferior to Euclid BxB with 14 Boost which in turn is inferior to Red Wyvern?

Or the part where Diehauser was much stronger than Issei CxC?

In any case it's like I said, this discussion will lead nowhere.

 

[Dragongod224]

So what we can do

 

[Dragongod224]

We need a scaling chain
First we take a issei as a example and compare other to issei following this step

1. First issei is a main example to compare other

2. We take each volume issei power level for compare that volume character

3.We would not compare a character that doesn't fight other one because that create a problem also their is not a proof is that one stronger than other one until they fight or they fight each other before

4.We would add a note to all dxd profile that all dxd character are getting stronger each volume by doing training and doing other things as we know

That's what I think

And also author statment
If author sey that character is that level and we find out that is contradict the other character power level than

For example -
Issei is maou class in CxC but can't fight other maou class we can sey that other one is peak of maou class or likely that type of example

We can follow this steps to create a profile for other

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I don't think it's implausible that Grendel and those who scale to him are above the Old Maou

Old Maou is where Bedeze is at, and he smashed Sairaorg with ease. There’s zero argument for this; you’re basically saying base Xenovia is above the previous Maou. That makes zero sense when you start to consider all the scaling implications.

Irina later matches base Xenovia. That would then make Irina above Michael and Gabriel if they’re supposed to exceed the Old Maou. These characters aren’t Maou-class; it makes no sense at all.

Xenovia herself only implies she can take on a Maou with Destruction Dragonar.

disagree.

Literally just read New Life in Shin DxD 4. Ajuka says it was created for Issei and Vali, not super devils in general.

Characters in DxD don't have a stagnant strength.

Okay? There’s multiple statements of BxB Issei being High class from Volume 5 to Volume 11 and zero indication of Ultimate class.

he bodied Kuroka when he was High class.

Only when they're outhaxed.

You do remember Hole can broken with physical force, right? Bedeze was overwhelmed with power and speed when Sairaorg used BtB.

Sairaorg was too weak without it and so was Issei, hence why they both lost badly. No Maou class portrayal.

Aside from the dozen I've shown you mean?

There’s no “dozen.” Also, please tell me you’re not using multiplier numbers to argue they are Maou class.

She wasn't overpowered by BxB Issei, and by the time she started to get serious, Arthur came to retrieve them. And Issei was going to use Boosts against the serious Kuroka.

Yes, she was. Issei even says there was fear on her face. She couldn’t do shit to damage him.

Also, Kuroka was never even officially a high class devil in status. She just got promoted in Shin DxD 4.

Meaning, the High class statement is referring to her power level. That would be commonsensical since she did not have evil pieces before she betrayed her master.

And I'm arguing that Volume 13 BxB Issei (after getting the stronger body) is Ultimate Class, not Volume 11 BxB Issei, so idk what your point is.

Dude. This isn’t hard. Kuroka got overpowered by Issei when he was definitively High class. She got stated to be High class. Neither of them are Ultimate class.

Except there’s zero proof that BxB Issei in Volume 13 is Ultimate class. You’re using roundabout logic to justify Millicas being at that level.

They were stated to be Ultimate Class

Exactly, and they got bodied by Maou class devils in different volumes. So, not Maou class.

f the statement was made in Zero, then it's irrelevant as I've explained before.

Wut? Zero is a more recent source. Moreover, you’re missing the point. Euclid claimed he was never inferior to Grayfia, which is a lie. His whole statement is a lie and the narrative confirms it.

Narratively, Grendel is a later villain and via shonen rules should be stronger than the previous villains if you'd like to argue narrative. And I proved that they were

So…Grendel is stronger than Loki? Diodora is stronger than Kokabiel? Bruh, Grendel is even a sub. The actual main antagonist is Loki. Your logic right now would have Niddhogr or Ladon above Loki or Fenrir and everyone that came before them.

Also, you guys should stop using multiplier numbers to determine your narrative scaling. If Grendel’s or CxC Issei’s multiplier get them above a Maou, then simply scale the Maou above them. It’s complete bogus to think powerscaling numbers are more important than the power hierarchy established in canon.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

So what we can do

When we finish this discussion, a new thread will be made.

 

[Dragongod224]

I am thinking that
Can we just replace the old fits with new fits and not change the entire profile

 

[Dragongod224]

Attack Potency: Mountain level (Even as a teenager in High School DxD Zero, he was stated to be more powerful than High-class Devils, making him far stronger than Balance Breaker Issei [6]) | Mountain level (Fought against Cardinal Crimson Promotion Issei, and matched his Crimson Blaster with a normal Dragon Shot [7])


This is euclid current attack potency we just change the key for ap with current accepted AP

 

[Dragongod224]

Attack Potency:
Large Island Level (Even as a teenager in High School DxD Zero, he was stated to be more powerful than High-class Devils, making him far stronger than Balance Breaker Issei without boost |

Small Planet Level (Fought against Cardinal Crimson Promotion Issei, and matched his Crimson Blaster with a normal Dragon Shot

 

[Dragongod224]

Just by replace the key and its look like this

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Bedeze scales to the New Maou, the same for Michael.

The fact that Shalba Ophis's Snake is at the level of the original Beelzebub and that Kokabiel says that Rias with 19 Boost is close to the level of the Old Maou is already an indication that the Old Maou was not as strong as believed.

Also most of the DxD fandom with whom I spoke agree that Xenovia at that point was already in the Maou Class.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

So what we can do

wait for the staff, if things don't go well I'll just continue what I was doing.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Old Maou is where Bedeze is at, and he smashed Sairaorg with ease.

Hard disagree.

There’s zero argument for this; you’re basically saying base Xenovia is above the previous Maou. That makes zero sense when you start to consider all the scaling implications.

She is.

Irina later matches base Xenovia. That would then make Irina above Michael and Gabriel if they’re supposed to exceed the Old Maou.

Correct

These characters aren’t Maou-class; it makes no sense at all.

ok

Xenovia herself only implies she can take on a Maou with Destruction Dragonar.

I disagree.

Literally just read New Life in Shin DxD 4. Ajuka says it was created for Issei and Vali, not super devils in general.

Praying Shin 5/6 will make more correct in hindsight. But there's a reason the only two Special Class Devils are Transcendentals as well. And they became Transcendentals at the same time the became Special Class, so obviously there's some correlation.

Okay? There’s multiple statements of BxB Issei being High class from Volume 5 to Volume 11 and zero indication of Ultimate class.

Ok? I never argued that regular BxB Issei was ultimate class in those volumes.

he bodied Kuroka when he was High class.

No, he didn't.

You do remember Hole can broken with physical force, right? Bedeze was overwhelmed with power and speed when Sairaorg used BtB.

Ok? Sairaorg would need to be stronger than Bedeze in order to do so, and he wasn't in BxB.

Sairaorg was too weak without it and so was Issei, hence why they both lost badly. No Maou class portrayal.

X being weaker than Y doesn't mean that X isn't Maou Class. Does Sona being weaker than Rias in volume 5 mean that Sona wasn't high class?

There’s no “dozen.”

Yeah obviously, it's an exaggeration bro.

Also, please tell me you’re not using multiplier numbers to argue they are Maou class.

Am I not allowed to? And that's not the sole reason anyway.

Yes, she was. Issei even says there was fear on her face. She couldn’t do shit to damage him.

Read the section in V5 again and you're right here, I was thinking of the manga.

Also, Kuroka was never even officially a high class devil in status. She just got promoted in Shin DxD 4.

Right again, however it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that someone who was able to kill a high class devil, and gradually become stronger and stronger over the course of a few years would be Ultimate Class. Especially since the person who knew her strength the best said she had Ultimate Class strength. (Also, considering that she survived an attack from BxB Vali, it seems realistic)

Meaning, the High class statement is referring to her power level. That would be commonsensical since she did not have evil pieces before she betrayed her master.

Either way, since these two statements conflict, I believe checking the raws would be an ok idea.

Dude. This isn’t hard. Kuroka got overpowered by Issei when he was definitively High class. She got stated to be High class. Neither of them are Ultimate class.

Keep in mind that some statements regarding classes are unreliable (Raynare's statements as an example), and the upper levels of one class blend into the lower levels of another. (Believe a statement was made like this in Shin?) And considering that BxB Issei was stronger than an amped Diodora, Rias, and Riser, he'd likely be at least around the upper high-lower ultimate tier. (WDR was able to block attacks that could instantly vaporize High Class Devils (Ultimate Class Attack), and that's only 6 times greater than BxB.a0

Except there’s zero proof that BxB Issei in Volume 13 is Ultimate class. You’re using roundabout logic to justify Millicas being at that level.

Except for all of the proof I gave that you're just dismissing? And my logic wasn't roundabout at all, it's explained within the series, I think not accepting it as factual is pretty roundabout.

Exactly, and they got bodied by Maou class devils in different volumes. So, not Maou class.

Bro clipped out most of my reply out of context.

Wut? Zero is a more recent source. Moreover, you’re missing the point. Euclid claimed he was never inferior to Grayfia, which is a lie. His whole statement is a lie and the narrative confirms it.

I mean within DxD's timeline, if 4 year old Rias said "I'm Maou Class". Obvious, there wouldn't be any weight to her claim since she's young, inexperienced, and doesn't fully understand how strong someone of that level is. However if Adult Rias made the claim, she'd be a lot more credible because she's older, an experienced fighter, and understands how strong people of that level are. Same situation here with Euclid.

So…Grendel is stronger than Loki? Diodora is stronger than Kokabiel? Bruh, Grendel is even a sub. The actual main antagonist is Loki. Your logic right now would have Niddhogr or Ladon above Loki or Fenrir and everyone that came before them.

So do you finally see how flawed your logic is?

Also, you guys should stop using multiplier numbers to determine your narrative scaling. If Grendel’s or CxC Issei’s multiplier get them above a Maou,

The multipliers are a part of the narrative, you should stop acting like they hold no value imo.

then simply scale the Maou above them.

I don't think headcanon scaling is the way to go.

It’s complete bogus to think powerscaling numbers are more important than the power hierarchy established in canon.

Sure, but this isn't that kind of situation. The "powerscaling numbers" line up with the established power hierarchy, idk why you're not accepting it.

Just by replace the key and its look like this

Please don't spam in the thread, if you have multiple things to say, please contain them in one reply.

Bedeze scales to the New Maou, the same for Michael.

The fact that Shalba Ophis's Snake is at the level of the original Beelzebub and that Kokabiel says that Rias with 19 Boost is close to the level of the Old Maou is already an indication that the Old Maou was not as strong as believed.

Also most of the DxD fandom with whom I spoke agree that Xenovia at that point was already in the Maou Class.

We finally agree, oppai-tastic.

But can we please continue this discussion in the GDT, I don't want my thread to get derailed or clogged anymore. (And the discussion is getting very heated, a break would be for the best.)​

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Well, it's not like we disagree on everything and there are points where I've given in even if I wasn't entirely convinced.

In any case, you're right, the thread is getting off track, but that was to be expected since the thread was made to scale very specific characters without taking into account all the possibilities on the scale.

When I made my DxD scale I reviewed several perspectives including some of the ones you propose, Grendel, Euclid among others were several of the characters that I had to do a deep analysis to make sure everything fits.

That's why I said I wasn't going to change my mind, I've simply already analyzed this several times and I keep analyzing it and everything leads me to the same conclusions.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Bedeze scales to the New Maou,

No, he doesn’t. He’s weaker than Roygun and Diehauser, and he regards Diehauser as a complete monster.

Unless you also think Diehauser is stronger than the new Maou.

The fact that Shalba Ophis's Snake is at the level of the original Beelzebub and that Kokabiel says that Rias with 19 Boost is close to the level of the Old Maou is already an indication that the Old Maou was not as strong as believed.

Not true. Kokabiel palmed her attack and he’s far below a Maou.

Also, you do remember that the new Maou were initially meant to be equal to the old Maou, as directly stated in the first volumes? Heck, Azazel was stated to be the first or second strongest leader in the peace faction meeting, which is bullshit.

Some of these things have been retconned.

Also most of the DxD fandom with whom I spoke agree that Xenovia at that point was already in the Maou Class.

They are wrong. Xenovia or Irina are not Maou class. Notice how they are never chosen by the author to fight against a Maou class on their own.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

No, he doesn’t. He’s weaker than Roygun and Diehauser, and he regards Diehauser as a complete monster.

Unless you also think Diehauser is stronger than the new Maou.

"X being weaker than Y doesn't mean that X isn't Maou Class."

Not true. Kokabiel palmed her attack and he’s far below a Maou.

Cap

Also, you do remember that the new Maou were initially meant to be equal to the old Maou, as directly stated in the first volumes? Heck, Azazel was stated to be the first or second strongest leader in the peace faction meeting, which is bullshit.

I don't believe Volume 1 compared the current Maou to the Maou.

Some of these things have been retconned.

Are retcons only ok when you want them to be?

They are wrong. Xenovia or Irina are not Maou class. Notice how they are never chosen by the author to fight against a Maou class on their own.

lol
Imo, we should just abandon scaling characters to "classes" since that's where all of the inconsistencies and arguments started and instead scale characters based on their own feats, or statements that directly compare them to other characters. (might make this the next CRT)

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Correct

Are you for real? Irina doesn’t have more than eight wings; she’s not stronger than a twelve winged Seraph. How can you think Irina is above Michael and Gabriel?

You realize this logic also makes eight winged Akeno stronger than Kokabiel and Azazel? Let’s be for real, please.

And yes, the wings are typically related to power levels for the angels as seen when Irina and Akeno gain more wings with their power ups.

I disagree.

You’re disagreeing with Xenovia’s own words? Okay…

Am I not allowed to? And that's not the sole reason anyway.

No, it shouldn’t work that way. These are our fanon numbers, they can’t take precedence over canon powerscaling implications.

Right again, however it wouldn't be a stretch to assume that someone who was able to kill a high class devil, and gradually become stronger and stronger over the course of a few years would be Ultimate Class. Especially since the person who knew her strength the best said she had Ultimate Class strength. (Also, considering that she survived an attack from B

Except that she got overpowered by High class BxB Issei and was directly stated as High class later on.

And considering that BxB Issei was stronger than an amped Diodora, Rias, and Riser, he'd likely be at least around the upper high-lower ultimate tier.

He’s literally stated to be in the high tier of High class in volume 11, so that’s all we need. Not Ultimate class without Triaina or CxC as confirmed by Azazel.

Except for all of the proof I gave that you're just dismissing? And my logic wasn't roundabout at all, it's explained within the series, I think not accepting it as factual is pretty roundabout.

You didn’t provide any proof for BxB Issei being Ultimate class. All you’d nneed to do is to show Issei fighting an Ultimate class on even footing, or a statement to that effect.

Neither of which exist…

mean within DxD's timeline, if 4 year old Rias said "I'm Maou Class". Obvious, there wouldn't be any weight to her claim since she's young, inexperienced, and doesn't fully understand how strong someone of that level is. However if Adult Rias made the claim, she'd be a lot more credible because she's older, an experienced fighter, and understands how strong people of that level are. Same situation here with Euclid

No? The narration itself confirmed that Euclid paled in comparison to Grayfia. Which means Euclid’s claim that he was never inferior to Grayfia is a blatant lie.

So do you finally see how flawed your logic is?

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

So do you finally see how flawed your logic is?

???

You claimed that new antagonists are stronger than the previous. I’m telling you that isn’t necessarily the case. How are you turning your own point against me…?

The multipliers are a part of the narrative, you should stop acting like they hold no value imo.

Not when you’re using them to claim characters are stronger than where they are narratively supposed to be.

And nothing suggests Issei or Sairaorg or Grendel were above a Maou; in fact, there’s a plethora of evidence to suggest otherwise.

Sure, but this isn't that kind of situation. The "powerscaling numbers" line up with the established power hierarchy, idk why you're not accepting it.

The established power hierarchy is Issei and Sairaorg being dominated by Maou class and being stated to be Ultimate class.

I’m not accepting them as Maou class because they are not.

Cap

Remind me what Cattleya, on par with the previous Leviathan, did to Base Azazel’s attack?

She brushed it away with a wave of her arm and forced him to use Fafnir. How do you read that and think a weaker Kokabiel is on their level?

Are retcons only ok when you want them to be?

If you want to think Azazel is stronger than Sirzechs or Serafall, be my guest.

Imo, we should just abandon scaling characters to "classes"

There’s nothing wrong with it and you’d be crafting your own canon to go against it.

There’s some exceptions to the rule, yeah, but it’s the literal power structure of the novel.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Irina and Akeno's wings mean nothing, one is a reincarnated and the other a hybrid, Michel and Grabiel are stronger than Irina and Akeno is stronger than Kokabiel, those are facts.

Shalba Ophis's Snake is at best 100 times stronger than the first CxC.

Grendel is almost 100 thousand times stronger than the first CxC.

I'm sorry friend but the facts are clear, the Old Maou was far outclassed.

Xenovia, Irina and Akeno since volume 16 are capable of Stomping Kokabiel and the Old Maou.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Are you for real? Irina doesn’t have more than eight wings; she’s not stronger than a twelve winged Seraph. How can you think Irina is above Michael and Gabriel?

Akeno has less wings than Kokabiel, is she weaker than him?

You realize this logic also makes eight winged Akeno stronger than Kokabiel? Let’s be for real, please.

Correct!
but fr, the wings scaling is really unrealistic. There's a reason that no one uses it.

You’re disagreeing with Xenovia’s own words? Okay…

Yours, not Xenovia's.

No, it shouldn’t work that way. These are our fanon numbers, they can’t take precedence over canon powerscaling implications.

The multipliers are canon bro

Except that she got overpowered by High class BxB Issei and was directly stated as High class later on.

The BxB Issei that could be argued to be Ultimate Class, and that one inconsistent statement.

He’s literally stated to be in the high tier of High class in volume 11, so that’s all we need. Not Ultimate class without Triaina or CxC as confirmed by Azazel.

As I've said before, the high of one class is the same as the low of another, and it could alternatively refer to skill, abilities, leadership ability, intelligence, speed, etc.

You didn’t provide any proof for BxB Issei being Ultimate class. All you’d nneed to do is to show Issei fighting an Ultimate class on even footing, or a statement to that effect.

Which I did.

Neither of which exist…

skull emoji

No? The narration itself confirmed that Euclid paled in comparison to Grayfia. Which means Euclid’s claim that he was never inferior to Grayfia is a blatant lie.

When was this statement made? I've asked multiple times previously.

And again, can we please continue the discussion in the GDT? If not, I'll ask for the thread to be closed.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Irina and Akeno's wings mean nothing

Akeno is stronger than Kokabiel

Xenovia, Irina and Akeno since volume 16 are capable of Stomping Kokabiel and the Old Maou

So the new argument now is that wings mean nothing, when we literally see the opposite for Irina and Akeno. They both gain more wings as they power up, but apparently it’s irrelevant.

Lol, I think I’m done here. Crazy how all of this is based on Boost stacking. All well and good, but none of this should ever take precedence over the canon hierarchy.

Ultimate class stomping the Old Maou is ridiculous. Since Volume 16? Okay, listen.

• Dragon Kings have a Pawn value of 5 according to the world tournament rules.
• That is, Yu Long, Saji and Ouryuu all have the same Pawn value of 5.
• Meaning they are all Ultimate class.
• BxB Gasper is equal to Ouryuu.
• Base Rossweisse has a Pawn value of 4, meaning she’s weaker than a Dragon King. Based on Akeno vs Rossweisse, Rose is overall stronger than Akeno.

Also, you do realize that Michael and Gabriel were rivals to the old Maou? They all fought in the Great War, and funny enough, the Maou were at a numbers disadvantage. It makes no sense for you to say Irina can “stomp” the Old Maou but still be weaker than Michael, who was relative to the Old Maou. CxC Issei can not even beat one shot Barakiel, so where’s all of this coming from? Irina and Xenovia couldn’t even beat the members of Barakiel’s team alone, all of whom are weaker than Barakiel, so how the hell can they stomp a Maou? You’re saying these random angels can keep up with a Maou and stomp them. They can’t beat the likes of Diethelm, Mirana, or Kiyotora alone.

Remember that Mirana’s largest spear was compared to a Cadre and it completely obliterated Rossweisse’s spells. I really wonder how you guys think the old Maou are irrelevant. Cadres are typically weaker than a Maou, and even their strongest leaders are not above the old Maou.

They are individually not stronger than Kokabiel for damn sure, not to talk about a Maou. This really makes zero sense.

The only thing you got right is Michael being stronger than Irina. But @MasqueTLDF thinks Irina is somehow stronger than Michael and Gabriel.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

from the moment Boost was accepted those became facts, there's no point in holding on to a past that's already been discarded.

The Great War is a huge plot hole in DxD, it makes no sense.

the God of the Bible was a God Tiers, even if we assume he was a normal god he should have crushed the demons and fallen angels, it's even worse because even if we remove the God of the Bible from the equation there still shouldn't be any demons in DxD today, the strongest guys in the demon faction were the 4 Maou, if we assume the Seraph were equal to the Old Maou then the angels had 10 equivalents to the Old Maou, you know what this is, a plot hole.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

But @MasqueTLDF thinks Irina is somehow stronger than Michael and Gabriel.

Evil Piece values mean practically nothing in terms of real scaling application, just like the wings, and the Irina>Michael/Gabriel thing was a joke.

 

[Dragongod224]

Characters being revised this time.
Rias Gremory
Genshirou Saji
Grendel
Kokabiel
Azazel
Sairaorg Bael
Ddraig
Albion
Ophis


Bro current we discussing on this characters so don't go for other character it's leads to no where

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

from the moment Boost was accepted those became facts, there's no point in holding on to a past that's already been discarded.

It’s not the “past.”

These are from volume 22 onwards:

• Xenovia and Irina are stalemated by angels that are much weaker than Cadres. Like, your scaling means they could have stomped Barakiel in volume 22 which is completely illogical. I don’t think you guys are considering the ramifications of your scaling. How are you going to have those random profiles and the likes of Mirana or Kiyotora above Barakiel and Azazel in our profiles? It makes no sense.
• Rossweisse’s spells are obliterated by a spear considered equal to a Cadre, which means most of the main characters are still weaker than Cadres.
• This is especially obvious, because again, Irina and Akeno have lesser wings than the Cadres. So they are flat out weaker.
• Dulio’s team members in volume 23 - Mirana, Diethelm, Kiyotora, etc- are stated to be able to take on an Ultimate-class Devil from the past and their peerage. Again, Ultimate-class and their peerage members. Not stomp a Maou like what you’re saying.

You just need to apply common sense. None of this is correct. The simple conclusion is that Irina, Akeno, Mirana, Rossweisse, CxC Issei, etc are not Maou class. Literally, everything in the narrative points against it.

Are we also going to pretend that Saji, Ouryuu and Yu Long are stronger than a Maou? Because they are certainly stronger than base Rose and Akeno.

No matter what your multipliers are telling you, scale Shalba above Grendel in the profiles. Scale Kokabiel above Irina and Akeno, or Mirana and Rossweisse. These characters are canonically and explicitly weaker than the Cadres.

Now, imagine if you scale Rossweisse above a Cadre when her spells were obliterated by a Cadre-class attack…how does that make sense to you? Again, these multipliers should not override the established power hierarchies.

Evil Piece values mean practically nothing in terms of real scaling application

It does, in the tournament. It’s literally structured like that, so people will not cheat by filling all their spots with God class beings. So the Pawn value reflects actual strength.

Rossweisse has 4. Dragon Kings take up 5. Clear enough.

just like the wings

They are perfectly valid. Akeno gaining more wings is used to highlight her becoming more and more of a high level fallen angel. And she has lesser wings than a Cadre.

I hope you don’t think Akeno stomps Barakiel either, because even CxC Issei did not stomp him.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Also, I just remembered that Yukihiko literally stalemated Irina. Bruh, come on, guys. These people aren’t Maou class at all.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

It’s not the “past.”

These are from volume 22 onwards:

• Xenovia and Irina are stalemated by angels that are much weaker than Cadres. Like, your scaling means they could have stomped Barakiel in volume 22 which is completely illogical. I don’t think you guys are considering the ramifications of your scaling. How are you going to have those random profiles and the likes of Mirana or Kiyotora above Barakiel and Azazel in our profiles? It makes no sense.
• Rossweisse’s spells are obliterated by a spear considered equal to a Cadre, which means most of the main characters are still weaker than Cadres.
• This is especially obvious, because again, Irina and Akeno have lesser wings than the Cadres. So they are flat out weaker.
• Dulio’s team members in volume 23 - Mirana, Diethelm, Kiyotora, etc- are stated to be able to take on an Ultimate-class Devil from the past and their peerage. Again, Ultimate-class and their peerage members. Not stomp a Maou like what you’re saying.

You just need to apply common sense. None of this is correct. The simple conclusion is that Irina, Akeno, Mirana, Rossweisse, CxC Issei, etc are not Maou class. Literally, everything in the narrative points against it.

Are we also going to pretend that Saji, Ouryuu and Yu Long are stronger than a Maou? Because they are certainly stronger than base Rose and Akeno.

No matter what your multipliers are telling you, scale Shalba above Grendel in the profiles. Scale Kokabiel above Irina and Akeno, or Mirana and Rossweisse. These characters are canonically and explicitly weaker than the Cadres.

Now, imagine if you scale Rossweisse above a Cadre when her spells were obliterated by a Cadre-class attack…how does that make sense to you? Again, these multipliers should not override the established power hierarchies.

It does, in the tournament. It’s literally structured like that, so people will not cheat by filling all their spots with God class beings. So the Pawn value reflects actual strength.

Rossweisse has 4. Dragon Kings take up 5. Clear enough.

They are perfectly valid. Akeno gaining more wings is used to highlight her becoming more and more of a high level fallen angel. And she has lesser wings than a Cadre.

I hope you don’t think Akeno stomps Barakiel either, because even CxC Issei did not stomp him.

As I've stated before, please discuss this in the GDT and don't derail the thread any further.

 

[BlackeJan]

Yeah this is where I disagree with scaling regarding boosts

It’s the fact that Issei’s boost should be a separated attack since when he boosts be becomes stronger and uses a stronger attack with those boosts so for him to be as strong as those boosts isn’t correct

Also regarding those scaling to certain section, iirc in order to move up a rank u must pass a test while getting stronger so just cause Rias becomes Ultimate Class, that doesn’t mean she’s all of a sudden as strong as Issei. Do we even know if she gotten as strong as Issei cause Issei’s BB >>> Base Rias

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

As I've stated before, please discuss this in the GDT and don't derail the thread any further.

You’ll need to make a new thread because this one is already derailed and the mods will be confused.

Besides, I’m not sure it’s derailing because I’m disagreeing with the scaling values proposed. That is, Kokabiel isn’t weaker than the current main characters (Rossweisse, Akeno, Irina, etc) so he should be scaled wherever they are. The reason can simply be that a Cadre-class attack can obliterate Rossweisse’s spells and as he has ten wings, he should be stronger than six-eight winged angels. It isn’t that hard and boosted Rias is hardly his cap since he blocked her attack with one hand and minor damage.

I could bring up Shalba again when the time comes again, since he apparently isn’t present here.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

And I didn’t mean to disrupt the thread to this extent, or anything. I simply find the idea that some of these characters mentioned can stomp a Maou as ridiculous. We’d basically be updating the profiles with information that directly goes against what’s shown in the novel.

We can’t be having Rossweisse as magnitudes above a Cadre when she was overpowered by something equal to a Cadre, you understand? It’s not logical at all.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

You’ll need to make a new thread because this one is already derailed and the mods will be confused.

Besides, I’m not sure it’s derailing because I’m disagreeing with the scaling values proposed. That is, Kokabiel isn’t weaker than the current main characters (Rossweisse, Akeno, Irina, etc) so he should be scaled wherever they are. The reason can simply be that a Cadre-class attack can obliterate Rossweisse’s spells and as he has ten wings, he should be stronger than six-eight winged angels. It isn’t that hard and boosted Rias is hardly his cap since he blocked her attack with one hand and minor damage.

I could bring up Shalba again when the time comes again, since he apparently isn’t present here.

Changing the topic from X's strength to Y's is derailing.

And I didn’t mean to disrupt the thread to this extent, or anything. I simply find the idea that some of these characters mentioned can stomp a Maou as ridiculous. We’d basically be updating the profiles with information that directly goes against what’s shown in the novel.

We can’t be having Rossweisse as magnitudes above a Cadre when she was overpowered by something equal to a Cadre, you understand? It’s not logical at all.

Again, please stop derailing, changing the topic from the original post is bad enough without spamming messages in the thread. I don't want to make a report and I've asked nicely many times already, discuss the other characters in the GDT, not here.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

It's the past, and the truth is simple, the Old Maou was surpassed, I don't see why to bother that we have a bunch of characters that surpass the power of some guys who have been dead for centuries, and all those characters are below the New Maou.

At this point your arguments boil down to simple disbelief.

Just stop and think about it.

Rias 19 Boost is declared as close but lower than the Maou level and we have Kokabiel as 3 Boost stronger.

So Kokabiel = Rias 22 Boost.

let's assume that Rias Base is as weak as possible, that is, she is as strong as Issei 12 Boost.

Rias Base = Issei 12 Boost.

Issei can use 18 Boost, so: Issei 18 Boost = Rias 6 Boost.

Incomplete BxB is stronger than Issei 18 Boost, which gives us.
Issei BxB Incomplete: > Rias 6 Boost.

Complete BxB is superior to incomplete,
Issei BxB: >> Rias 6 Boost.

Issei BxB can use 14 Boost, so we have this.
Issei BxB with 14 Boost: >> Rias 20 Boost.

Issei Illegal Move Triaina: >> 6 Rias 6 Boost.
Issei Illegal Move Triaina with 14 Boost: >> 6 Rias 20 Boost.

Sairaorg BxB One-Shot Issei Illegal Move Triaina with 14 Boost, then.
Sairaorg BxB: 》>> 6 Rias 20 Boost.
Issei CxC is comparable to Sairaorg BxB, then.
Issei CxC: 》>> 6 Rias 20 Boost.
Solid Impact Booster: 》>> 12 Rias 20 Boost.
Issei CxC with 14 Boost: 》>> 6 Rias 34 Boost.
Solid Impact Booster with 14 Boost: 》>> 12 Rias 34 Boost.

you see this, you see this, I didn't use a single multiplier or number, all I did was a basic Power Scaling, and I ended up with Issei BxB's Full Power surpassing Rias 19 Boost and with CxC surpassing Kokabiel.

but let's do it another way, let's use the current scale and make Rias Base comparable to Incomplete BxB and make a scaling chain.

Rias Base = Issei BxB Incomplete.
Issei BxB : >Rias Base.
Issei BxB with 14 Boost: >Rias 14 Boost.
Issei Illegal Move Triaina: > 6 Rias Base.
Issei Illegal Move Triaina with 14 Boost: >6 Rias 14 Boost.

Sairaorg BxB One-Shot Issei Illegal Move Triaina with 14 Boost, then.
Sairaorg BxB: 》>6 Rias 14 Boost.
Issei CxC is comparable to Sairaorg BxB, then.
Issei CxC: 》>6 Rias 14 Boost.
Solid Impact Booster: 》>12 Rias 14 Boost.
Issei CxC with 14 Boost: 》>6 Rias 28 Boost.
Solid Impact Booster with 14 Boost: 》>12 Rias 28 Boost.

You see this, CxC once again surpassing Kokabiel.

but let's do something else.

Shalba Ophis's Snake is comparable to the Original Beelzebub.
Shalba Ophis's Snake = Original Beelzebub.

Shalba Ophis's Snake is between 10 to 100 times its base.

Shalba Ophis's Snake = 10 Shalba or Shalba Ophis's Snake = 100 Shalba.

now base Shalba is comparable to Issei CxC.

Issei CxC = Shalba.
Solid Impact Booster = 6 Shalba.
Issei CxC with 14 Boost = Shalba 14 Boost.
Solid Impact Booster with 14 Boost = 6 Shalba 14 Boost.

the difference between 6 Shalba and 10 Shalba is 67%.
the difference between 6 Shalba and 100 Shalba is 16.67

Now I want you to tell me 2 things:

1) You can't believe Shalba 14 Boost or 6 Shalba 14 Boost is at least 67% stronger than 6 Shalba.

2) You can't believe 6 Shalba 14 Boost is at least 16.67 times stronger than 6 Shalba.

If you tell me those 2 things, then I'll end this discussion here.