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I already say that but look like no one see that
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High School DxD Universe Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Ionliosite
- Start date
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Future issei is absolute monster he defeat Ruma Idra's main body would be able to destroy DxD of the Present and Past. (2-C)
Defeat a 2-C character with just a fire breath
Defeat a 2-C character with just a fire breath
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Shalba was at the level of the original Beelzebub and he was the leader of the Maou faction. That implies he’s stronger than Katerea, which adds up because Beelzebub is second behind Lucifer.
Heck, Azazel was about to use Balance Breaker against Cruzurey. He’s not stronger than any of them. Katerea with Ophis’ snake was nearly equal to Serafall according to the narration. Now, consider this from the early volumes.
The current Maou were initially meant to be equal to the previous Maou, not above. That means Katerea, being nearly equal to Serafall, was not quite equal to the previous Leviathan.
Even in Zero, Bidleid as the Beelzebub was portrayed as the leader above Tefarme Leviathan. This follows up with Ajuka being promoted to a Beelzebub behind Lucifer.
Point is, Katerea was at best equal to the previous Maou.
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Ah, no.
Just because Shalba Ophis's Snake is on the level of the Original Beelzebub doesn't mean Katerea Ophis's Snake is on the level of the Original Leaviathan. Neither does Azazel wanting to use BxB against Creuserey Ophis's Snake mean anything on this scale.
Katarea Base scales to be able to fight Azazel Base even if he's somewhat inferior to him and Katerea Ophis's Snake is between 10 to 100 times his Base.
DxD Zero doesn't mean anything either.
You're accusing everyone of headcanon when you're the only one using headcanon.
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And TMI, I agree with most of your previously mentioned stuff regarding the Youkai, Saji, and Ross. Though, I'd probs change the reasoning a bit. If VP Saji would be relative (same general tier) to Grendel, I'd argue that the Yasaka Ultimate Class statement was incorrect. (Ex: That statement was made when she was empowered by Kyoto, and when she wasn't empowered by Kyoto, she was able to fight a Bandersnatch. Something that teams of Ultimate Class Devils couldn't do.) (One thing I disagree with is the "Half of Grendel" thing for reasons mentioned in the other thread, not something I personally disagree with, I just don't think the site would accept that.)
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Well, I think it was worth a try.
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You could definitely ask staff members about the feat and if it'd be usable for a 50% value if you want.
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Nah, I have only used canon statements but you people are basing everything on your fanon numbers using Boost multipliers, which are based off fanon calcs at that.
According to what I have seen today:
- DxD Zero doesn’t mean anything.
- Kokabiel is somehooow excluded from the statement that Mirana is not on the level of a Cadre. Somehow, Kokabiel is not a Cadre. Should I repeat this once again? That’s how ridiculous the assertion is. You ignore this canon and the fact that Kokabiel is a Cadre so that Mirana can be stronger than Kokabiel. But I am the one using headcanon, seriously?
- Wings mean nothing
- Classes mean nothing (even though it’s explicitly stated to be a rank of a devil’s power)
- Pawn value in the Rating Game system means nothing (even though it’s literally a plot point that it’s based on strength so players won’t cheat the system with God class beings)
- The narration saying Dulio’s team members are ultimate class at best also means nothing.
- Issei, Azazel and Kuroka stating that Issei is Ultimate class means nothing. The three of them were somehow lying in three different volumes.
What exactly excludes Kokabiel alone from this statement?
No, seriously. Is Kokabiel somehow not a Cadre? The entire logic now is to make Kokabiel orders of magnitudes below Mirana, which goes against this statement, just to fit some multiplier numbers.
I definitely am not the one using headcanon here…
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The Yasaka statement was moreso a general statement of her power. Don’t think it takes into account the leylines, because iirc, Yasaka with the leylines briefly overpowered Yu Long.
Also, Yasaka fought the Bandersnatch with Kunou who can enhance her power.
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Kunou didn't have that ability yet bro, she gained that in Shin right?
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Not sure honestly, I just remembered it’s a thing but I don’t feel like going back to check volume 12 rn.
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Quote from the end of DX 2 (Latter half of Arc 4), and the statements given imply that it's a recent development since they had only met once before V12.
And since Kiba saw Kunou in V9 and gave the narration in V12, and didn't note anything different about her, we can assume she was in her base state.
Also
This'd just confirm Saji being around that Maou Class in VP as TMI suggested previously.
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He has the exact same Pawn value as Yu Long under the same tournament rules, which is 5. The same as Ouryuu and one higher than Rossweisse (5).
I might actually need to make an extensive thread to address all of this in detail (class ranking, multipliers, Pawn values, debunking the Maou class claims for these characters), but I have work and exams right now. Perhaps I’ll make the thread late October or November.
All of this is way too egregious. It’s like back in the days when DxD Issei was ranked below Serafall.
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Okay, yeah. Just checked volume 12 and Kiba doesn’t say Kunou is increasing Yasaka’s power. She did have an army of youkai there though.
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Most of her Youkai were getting outclassed by V9 Base Issei right? Or was that an anime only thing?
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you're the only one using headcanon.
then all you have is a statement... in the face of all the evidence you've been unable to deny.
a statement whose validity depends on Kokabiel being the only Cadre we've seen fight... when we've seen Armaros, Azazel, and Baraqiel fight.
i'd rather use evidence than a random ranking system.
your entire argument boils down to crying that Mirana can't be stronger than Kokabiel and Grendel can't be stronger than the Old Maou when it's already been proven without the need for energy values or the Boost multiplier that Kokabiel and the Old Maou's strength was surpassed by the Fullpower of the first CxC and all those that scale to it.
instead of continuing to repeat the same thing try arguing some of the following points
1) Issei BxB is unable to use 13 or more Boost OR Issei CxC is unable to use 8 or more Boost.
2)The first Issei CxC doesn't need to use Solid Impact Booster with 14 Boost to fight Grendel.
3)Dragons have no resistance to magic and Grendel has no enhanced resistance to magic.
4)Rossweisse is unable to inflict even the slightest amount of damage to Grendel with her magic.
5)Mirana can't annihilate Rossweisse's magic.
then all you have is a statement... in the face of all the evidence you've been unable to deny.
a statement whose validity depends on Kokabiel being the only Cadre we've seen fight... when we've seen Armaros, Azazel, and Baraqiel fight.
i'd rather use evidence than a random ranking system.
your entire argument boils down to crying that Mirana can't be stronger than Kokabiel and Grendel can't be stronger than the Old Maou when it's already been proven without the need for energy values or the Boost multiplier that Kokabiel and the Old Maou's strength was surpassed by the Fullpower of the first CxC and all those that scale to it.
instead of continuing to repeat the same thing try arguing some of the following points
1) Issei BxB is unable to use 13 or more Boost OR Issei CxC is unable to use 8 or more Boost.
2)The first Issei CxC doesn't need to use Solid Impact Booster with 14 Boost to fight Grendel.
3)Dragons have no resistance to magic and Grendel has no enhanced resistance to magic.
4)Rossweisse is unable to inflict even the slightest amount of damage to Grendel with her magic.
5)Mirana can't annihilate Rossweisse's magic.
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What? That’s not the case at all. Is this a lack of reading comprehension?
The statement is that Cadres are stronger than Mirana. Mirana is broadly described as inferior to a Cadre. Cadres include Kokabiel, Azazel, Barakiel, Armaros, Penemune, etc. This simply means that all of these Cadres, including Kokabiel, are stronger than Mirana. Kokabiel alone is not somehow excluded from the Cadres. This isn’t hard at all.
Funny enough, one of the reasons used to get Boost accepted was because it’s integral to the lore of the Heavenly Dragons. But now, the lore concerning the ranking system is somehow “random” and irrelevant, even though it’s far more integral than stacking Boost multipliers is. Not only that, but you also claimed DxD Zero means nothing - the same DxD Zero we used to get the cosmology blog accepted.
Again, all of this hand waving is just to fit in the Boost multipliers. When the simple conclusion is to scale Kokabiel above Mirana as the novel literally tells us.
Kokabiel, yes. Did you misunderstand?
- CxC Issei is stronger than Kokabiel.
- CxC Issei is weaker than any Maou, because he’s literally called equivalent to an Ultimate class devil three times, including by himself. When he was getting schooled by Diehauser, he even exclaims that it’s because Diehauser is Maou class.
- Kokabiel and every other Cadre is stronger than Mirana.
Those are my points.
But no worries. When I’m done with my exams and I’m not too swamped with work. I will try to make an extensive thread to cover the following points:
- class ranking system and how integral it is to the lore (hopefully we remember this lore argument is how Boost got accepted in the first place)
- Pawn value in the Rating Game tournament and why it’s based on strength.
- why the amount of wings correlates to power level for angels and fallen angels.
- why Kokabiel is stronger than most of the current main characters and Mirana,
- why Issei, Sairaorg, Xenovia, Saji, etc are not Maou class.
- why Grendel isn’t stronger than a Maou
- why Dulio’s team members should scale to Ultimate class (as literally stated in the novel)
Etc. This is dependent on when I’m free enough, could be next month.
You know something else funny? When you disregard the class ranking system, you are basically dunking on your own argument that Boost should be accepted because it’s integral to the lore. I don’t really care about Boost multipliers but I do care about lore accuracy.
Heck, the alternative scaling you brought up, in case Boost wasn’t accepted by staff, was based on the class rankings to scale the characters! But now it’s “random” and irrelevant?
Go ahead and shit on your own argument because I’ll be sure to bring it up. The class ranking system is 10x more central to the lore and world building than the Boosted Gear is. Get the class ranking removed and I’ll simply point out it’s much more central to the lore than Boost.
The ability of one single dragon is not somehow more important than a ranking system used by literally all the mythologies. We don’t need to point out how ridiculous that idea is. Be serious, dude.
I’m “complaining” because you guys are now basically attempting to put wrong information in the profile, and now you want to disregard something as important as the ranking system at that. The system is much, much more important to the lore than the Boosted Gear which Ishibumi demonstrates not to really care about time and again. Boost as an ability has always been plot dependent.
So again, you’re shooting yourselves in the foot with that argument.
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They said the youkai brought along with Yasaka were those confident in their strength.
Besides, sometimes weaklings can matter in large numbers. A group of middle class beings working together can beat an inexperienced high class devil according to Shin DxD volume 1.
It does depend on the context.
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Kokabiel is stronger than the first CxC without Boost, but inferior to the first CxC with Boost.
Something that I already showed you without the need for energy values or the multiplier and that you have not been able to deny because you refuse to answer since you know that you cannot deny it.
The first CxC without Boost is Ultimate Class, its Fullpower is Maou Class.
Your problem is that you are not understanding very simple things.
Does the narrative say that Mirana is inferior to the Cadres? Yes
Does the narrative say that Issei CxC did not surpass the Maou until after Diabolos Dragon? Yes
But the problem is that what I saw in the novels shows the opposite.
I believe in what I see, because what I see gives me evidence.
The narrative does not give any evidence, it only asks that you have faith.
All this comes down to your pure disbelief.
If you prefer to believe in the narrative, that's fine, go ahead, it's your problem, not mine.
But the point is that you have not been able to deny the evidence that has been shown.
I have asked you multiple times to show me something that denies the evidence and you give nothing, you just repeat the same arguments that are based only on faith. I asked you to answer a question in the previous thread and you did not do it. I asked you to give arguments for the points that could deny the evidence and you give nothing. You just repeat like a parrot the same nonsense. If you cannot give any real argument that is not based on pure faith then just do not talk about this subject again.
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IT DOESN'T MATTER
FALSE
LIAR
SUPER FALSE
Give up now
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There was a system to rank a Devil’s power… Low-class Devil, Middleclass Devil, High-class devil, Ultimate-class Devil, Maou-class Devil, and Transcendental-level… I wonder what was my current power level? The Devil government assessed me as a High-class Devil level though. The Dragon who resided inside me, the Red Dragon Emperor Ddraig, laughed as he said.
[Kukuku, it has been a while since you were looked down upon, partner.
They think you are at most a High-class devil or an Ultimate-class one.]
Well, I wouldn’t blame them as I usually looked just like a normal high schooler.
By the way, Ddraig, how strong do you think I am now?
[With that condition, I would say that you can give a Maou-class a good fight. But, if you use ‘that’ form, you can even fight a Transcendental-class. I am sure that these guys didn’t think that they would meet a Devil of this class.]
devil rank issei power level in shin high school Dxd volume 1 Life.1, Part 3
[Kukuku, it has been a while since you were looked down upon, partner.
They think you are at most a High-class devil or an Ultimate-class one.]
Well, I wouldn’t blame them as I usually looked just like a normal high schooler.
By the way, Ddraig, how strong do you think I am now?
[With that condition, I would say that you can give a Maou-class a good fight. But, if you use ‘that’ form, you can even fight a Transcendental-class. I am sure that these guys didn’t think that they would meet a Devil of this class.]
devil rank issei power level in shin high school Dxd volume 1 Life.1, Part 3
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Ok, Low Class beings can be "confident in their strength, and considering that the context is likely a bunch of Low Class beings vs a Maou Class being, the analogy seems kinda irrelevant.
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Btw, I'm not gonna completely remove the class scaling, just set stricter rules for it due to how inconsistent it is. And if @Burning_Full_Fingers has a problem with that, being stricter for the sake of accuracy, then we'll know who's using head canon and who isn't. Also, I think it'd be best to get as many current DxD supporters/knowledgeable members together as possible for when that thread is made.
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Explain BFF cause if that’s actually true then these r nothing more then inflation
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Fuhahaha! Good! That flow of demonic power! The demonic-power I can feel right now is that of an ultimate-class devil. A little bit more then you would reach that of a Maou, Rias Gremory! Looks like you have a talent equal to that of your brother’s!”
Buchou’s shot started to get pushed back, and started to lose its shape! He couldn’t be defeated even with that amount of demonic-power!? But Kokabiel also wasn’t uninjured. His black robe was tattered in places, and his hands were bloody. But his ability to block demonic power certainly decreased.
Akeno-san widened her eyes and got enraged. She continued to use lightning but they were all deflected by Kokabiel’s wings. Barakiel is the leader of the fallen-angels. A thunder user who has the alias “Holy-Lightning”. In terms of basic fighting ability, he is said to be on par with the Viceroy of the fallenangels, Azazel. And Barakiel is Akeno-san’s…… Kokabiel laughed loudly after nullifying Buchou’s attack completely.
Buchou’s shot started to get pushed back, and started to lose its shape! He couldn’t be defeated even with that amount of demonic-power!? But Kokabiel also wasn’t uninjured. His black robe was tattered in places, and his hands were bloody. But his ability to block demonic power certainly decreased.
Akeno-san widened her eyes and got enraged. She continued to use lightning but they were all deflected by Kokabiel’s wings. Barakiel is the leader of the fallen-angels. A thunder user who has the alias “Holy-Lightning”. In terms of basic fighting ability, he is said to be on par with the Viceroy of the fallenangels, Azazel. And Barakiel is Akeno-san’s…… Kokabiel laughed loudly after nullifying Buchou’s attack completely.
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it isn't lol, there's a reason that a majority of the knowledgeable members here are disagreeing.
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Just cause members r disagreeing doesn’t mean it’s true. Plenty of people will agree on something just cause it’s an upgrade (same for opponents wanting a downgrade).
Plus outliers and PIS don’t even exist anymore so people create CRTs and it get passed without a glance
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I have no idea what you're talking about but ok
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Copy and Pasted this from the sandbox. Thoughts? Made it as unbiased and impartial as I could and I'll add scans later.
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It seems fine to me, determining the ranks of each class was something I wanted after we had values we could use.
One thing, you forgot about the gods, originally we only knew the levels of the gods as God Class, Chief God Class and the Gods of the Top 10 Strongest Beings, but later the concepts of Non-Combatant God Class/Low-Level God and Combatant God Class/High-Level God were introduced.
One thing, you forgot about the gods, originally we only knew the levels of the gods as God Class, Chief God Class and the Gods of the Top 10 Strongest Beings, but later the concepts of Non-Combatant God Class/Low-Level God and Combatant God Class/High-Level God were introduced.
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Fixed in the Sandbox, I'll upload the CRT tomorrow since there have been no contest to the CRT so far.
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Also, if anyone else has additional rules to propose, just lemme know
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Some of these are instinctual. Like yes, some classes have power gaps. The point is, on average, Ultimate class > High class, or Maou class > Ultimate class. Ten wings > eight wings, etc.
To get into some of the things I disagree with:
Incorrect. Boost is the most inconsistent ability and every DxD community acknowledges it. Issei boosts dozens of times sometimes and won’t one shot or overwhelm someone he was equivalent with, even though he should be thousands of times stronger. The Barakiel fight is perfect to illustrate this. Every single one of us in this thread knows this.
And he even thinks that the King piece multiplier of 10x - 100x is unimaginable, which doesn’t make sense but there we go with Ishibumi.
Or, do we also mention how current Ophis is 2x Ddraig’s strength and it’s mentioned as something unimaginable? Ddraig should be stomping Ophis with Boost, yet he can’t. That much is clear from Shin DxD 3.
Ishibumi blatantly doesn’t care about it anymore, so acting as though it’s of equal importance to the class rankings is false.
We need actual evidence that the top tier of one class is equal to the bottom tier of the next class. As in, actual quotes and not personal inference which is baseless.
You should also realize that this would contradict your claim that CxC Issei can stomp the old Maou.
The classes are fairly straightforward. It’s literally based on power. Ex: Issei says he’s equivalent to an Ultimate class in strength. Kuroka says he’s equivalent to an Ultimate class devil in strength.
This holds up because the Ultimate class Devils are regarded as the elites. They are the elite level of defense in the Underworld - as seen in the Jabberwocky invasion. They fill up all the top ten spots in the Rating Game rankings.
The class rankings follow in terms on power.
How are Slash Dog and Junior “secondary sources?” Is Boruto a secondary source? Is Fairy Tail 100 Years Quest a secondary source? DX 4 is explicitly called Volume 23.5. What are you even doing right now? Seriously, doing all of this for Boost is just not it at all.
Some of the other things, I don’t really have an issue with or too tired to go into.
To get into some of the things I disagree with:
Incorrect. Boost is the most inconsistent ability and every DxD community acknowledges it. Issei boosts dozens of times sometimes and won’t one shot or overwhelm someone he was equivalent with, even though he should be thousands of times stronger. The Barakiel fight is perfect to illustrate this. Every single one of us in this thread knows this.
And he even thinks that the King piece multiplier of 10x - 100x is unimaginable, which doesn’t make sense but there we go with Ishibumi.
Or, do we also mention how current Ophis is 2x Ddraig’s strength and it’s mentioned as something unimaginable? Ddraig should be stomping Ophis with Boost, yet he can’t. That much is clear from Shin DxD 3.
Ishibumi blatantly doesn’t care about it anymore, so acting as though it’s of equal importance to the class rankings is false.
Where are the quotes to support this? This honestly just seems like an attempt to make CxC Issei Maou class when he’s stated to be Ultimate class.
We need actual evidence that the top tier of one class is equal to the bottom tier of the next class. As in, actual quotes and not personal inference which is baseless.
You should also realize that this would contradict your claim that CxC Issei can stomp the old Maou.
Not at all. Boost itself is arguably the single most inconsistent thing in the series and everyone knows it. And no, an ability developed by Ddraig is not of equal importance to the class rankings at all.
The classes are fairly straightforward. It’s literally based on power. Ex: Issei says he’s equivalent to an Ultimate class in strength. Kuroka says he’s equivalent to an Ultimate class devil in strength.
This holds up because the Ultimate class Devils are regarded as the elites. They are the elite level of defense in the Underworld - as seen in the Jabberwocky invasion. They fill up all the top ten spots in the Rating Game rankings.
The class rankings follow in terms on power.
Simple.
They are not secondary sources, they are literally all main canon. Volume 8 and 13 are literally the same short story volumes as any other DX volumes. Volume 15 is mostly a side story volume.
How are Slash Dog and Junior “secondary sources?” Is Boruto a secondary source? Is Fairy Tail 100 Years Quest a secondary source? DX 4 is explicitly called Volume 23.5. What are you even doing right now? Seriously, doing all of this for Boost is just not it at all.
Some of the other things, I don’t really have an issue with or too tired to go into.
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lol
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The Boost multipliers are now being used to override everything in the novel. To summarize, these are the things that override for the sake of Boost alone:
- Class rankings
- Pawn values in the world tournament
- Wings correlating to strength for angels and fallen angels
- Characters being explicitly stated as Ultimate class being upgraded above a Maou because of the multipliers
- A character explicitly below a Cadre is now being scaled thousands of times above a Cadre
- DX volumes are now somehow lower than the main volumes, even though Volume 8 and 13 are literally compilations of short stories.
- Now I’m hearing that Slash Dog and Junior DxD are somehow below in precedence compared to DxD
I’m sure there are others, but I’m too tired to check. At this point, I think I’ll make my own thread and I’m not sure how Boost is going to be handled per se - because I don’t think it should take precedence over everything else.
I don’t plan to bring up “inflation” from Boost, I’m pretty neutral as it has its fair share of support and contradictions alike. I just want the characters to be scaled appropriately, Boost or not.
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Also, by the way, someone on Reddit checked the Juggernaut Drive raws and it wasn’t up to 40+ Boosts.
Not sure if it’ll affect the Small Star rating, but it was 30+ iirc. Check the sub @MasqueTLDF
Not sure if it’ll affect the Small Star rating, but it was 30+ iirc. Check the sub @MasqueTLDF
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I dont believe the accepted rating was 40+ so idk what you mean
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you keep crying because the precious narrative you're clinging to has holes in it?
They don't matter
again the first CxC is Ultimate Class, his Fullpower is Maou Class.
oh come on, you're still clinging to the same nonsense? I prefer to rely on the scale supported by the events seen in several volumes than a single statement that is inconsistent with history itself. The fact that the narrative takes 10 volumes (and an increase in power) to make a clear fact only proves that the narrative has problems.
I don't agree with leaving DX, Slashdog and Junior aside unless there is a good reason for it.
They already have it and you're the only one complaining because the scale shows that the narrative is inconsistent, something everyone else already knew.
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I'll respond to the long text walls soon, just gotta add scans to the sandbox. I just smell a bit of bias lol.
