High School DxD Universe Discussion Thread

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I can imagine that as the one with the guy said to be "Issei's antithesis" and someone that's supposed to be "gloomy and dark", his story would be the one just outright serious with possibly the least amount of ecchi/fanservice compared to Issei and Tobio's adventures.

He seems like a nice guy, but with dangerous ideals or cynical outlook. If we take into account the OG Denpachi, his best friend was erased from existence and he probably has gone through other shitty things with the nature of the Game.

The OG Denpachi ending was a bit confusing to me, maybe because I used Google Translate. But it’s not really a happy ending.

With his comparison to Issei, I imagine he might be used as a representation of how Issei might have turned out, had some events gone a bit differently.

If that's one of his ideas he had planned for, I would have loved for that to be a thing just so we can get proper char art of Mitsuya, that one girl he's often with Shirino Shizuka, and anyone else from their "erased group".

There’s one more guy from the original main cast, a brawler named Doujima. Maybe he’ll also be introduced again.

Momiji is in the Innovate Clear world, so I don’t think she’d appear in Shin DxD.

Oh, and at least give us an idea of where he got Innovate Clear from as we know he managed to get Telos Karma from the current Ouryuu's sister/cousin(?) but no IC.

One of the biggest mysteries. Ishibumi is just playing mysterious with everything related to Innovate.

We need that Ouryuu spinoff and/or Denpachi reboot.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Someone had vandalized Rias' profile a bit ago, thankfully it was reverted.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

@MasqueTLDF
@Qliphoth_Bacikal
@Vietthai96
@TotalMasterInfinity

And any others that may be watching.

MasqueTLDF/Sandbox High School DxD Cosmology

vsbattles.fandom.com

Can we all look over the cosmology sandbox and comment on anything in particular?

• Particularly, I’m still eh on the timelines section with the Telos Karma and Innovate Clear section. I think we could just stick to the branching timelines as that’s way more straightforward, and I am not sure what Innovate Clear matters.
• I put a note in the DG section and the tier 4 rating as the low end based on the stars. I’m not sure if it’s needed or not though.
• I think the High 3-A conclusion for Earth could do with more proper explanation.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

@MasqueTLDF
@Qliphoth_Bacikal
@Vietthai96
@TotalMasterInfinity

And any others that may be watching.

MasqueTLDF/Sandbox High School DxD Cosmology

vsbattles.fandom.com

Can we all look over the cosmology sandbox and comment on anything in particular?

A few point of contention with the latest updates but overall, I really appreciate your help, thank you.
1. Regarding the anime canon, you removed the animated blu ray specials and Junior? I'm not sure of the reasoning for the former but as for the latter, Shinonome states that Junior is canon to the LN and Anime.

• Particularly, I’m still eh on the timelines section with the Telos Karma and Innovate Clear section. I think we could just stick to the branching timelines as that’s way more straightforward, and I am not sure what Innovate Clear matters.

By the way TK is described and how we've seen it been used, it kinda seems to be linked to IC in some way. For example, TK is stated to only be able to "control fate" in the worlds that IC makes. And as for why TK is included in the first place, it's because it provides more insight on the timelines, literally being explained in the same way MWI is, where every possible outcome is in a state similar to Schrödinger's cat where everyone of these outcomes exist and don't at the same time but just in another timeline. (There's a possibility that Issei meets the Chichigami and one where he doesn't as an example, and these are shown to be different timelines.) If they didn't exist somewhere/when else, TK couldn't reinforce them and make them fate/reality.

• I put a note in the DG section and the tier 4 rating as the low end based on the stars. I’m not sure if it’s needed or not though.

I understand why you'd think 4-A would be a "low end", but it's just inaccurate. Regardless of the size of the Myth realms, the DG still surrounds the Human World which is Low 2-C. It is above time and space which would make it Low 2-C. And it is a different dimensional plane that can contain 3D objects which would make it Low 2-C. The only way 4-A would be an accurate low end would be if we disregarded all other known information about it. Low 2-C should be the minimum with 2-C being a high end.

• I think the High 3-A conclusion for Earth could do with more proper explanation.

I'll work on that. And I'm glad that the community is working together, I appreciate everyone here.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

1. Regarding the anime canon, you removed the animated blu ray specials and Junior? I'm not sure of the reasoning for the former but as for the latter, Shinonome states that Junior is canon to the LN and Anime.

I didn’t remove them. They are in the LN canon section, because well, they are novels.

I understand why you'd think 4-A would be a "low end", but it's just inaccurate. Regardless of the size of the Myth realms, the DG still surrounds the Human World which is Low 2-C. It is above time and space which would make it Low 2-C. And it is a different dimensional plane that can contain 3D objects which would make it Low 2-C. The only way 4-A would be an accurate low end would be if we disregarded all other known information about it. Low 2-C should be the minimum with 2-C being a high end.

The point of contention here would be whether the Dimensional Gap surrounds the human world, as in the surface world or the entire universe. There is no explicit evidence for the entire universe as far as I’m aware. So I put 4-A there as the barest minimum, at least to cover all bases.

As for the different dimensional plane thing, I’m not knowledgeable about that so it can be explained in the Conclusion section to justify Low 2-C.

By the way TK is described and how we've seen it been used, it kinda seems to be linked to IC in some way. For example, TK is stated to only be able to "control fate" in the worlds that IC makes

For some reason. But still, Innovate Clear’s creation capability is not relevant to alternate timelines.

And as for why TK is included in the first place, it's because it provides more insight on the timelines, literally being explained in the same way MWI is, where every possible outcome is in a state similar to Schrödinger's cat where everyone of these outcomes exist and don't at the same time but just in another timeline.

Well, nothing is said about timelines in the Telos Karma explanation. There’s possibilities at least, like the example Ouryuu made. It’s called History Breaker but we haven’t seen much. In theory, it’s possible for Telos Karma to spawn alternate timelines by virtue of influencing historical events, yeah.

Don’t think it really is even needed imo. The branching timelines enough, I’d guess. No explicit infinite statement though, just continuous branching which isn’t 2-A afaik.

I'll work on that. And I'm glad that the community is working together, I appreciate everyone here.

Ok, and no prob.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I didn’t remove them. They are in the LN canon section, because well, they are novels.

Here, the ones that say "specials" are what I'm referring to. Not the written short stories. I believe this was the origin of the "seven hells" statement as well. And Junior being a novel doesn't mean it's not a sequel to both Hero and Volume 10.

The point of contention here would be whether the Dimensional Gap surrounds the human world, as in the surface world or the entire universe. There is no explicit evidence for the entire universe as far as I’m aware. So I put 4-A there as the barest minimum, at least to cover all bases.

There is no difference between the "surface world" and the rest of the universe. The human realm has Earth as well as other celestial bodies like stars and the moon, there's no reason to assume otherwise. It'd literally be impossible for the DG to only surround multiple solar systems as things like galaxies would exist to contain them.

As for the different dimensional plane thing, I’m not knowledgeable about that so it can be explained in the Conclusion section to justify Low 2-C.

Sure

For some reason. But still, Innovate Clear’s creation capability is not relevant to alternate timelines.

It is relevant to alternate universes, and Telos Karma is the timeline part, they're both connected. A new universe with a different history would be a different timeline as history in the LN and Anime are different.

Well, nothing is said about timelines in the Telos Karma explanation. There’s possibilities at least, like the example Ouryuu made. It’s called History Breaker but we haven’t seen much. In theory, it’s possible for Telos Karma to spawn alternate timelines by virtue of influencing historical events, yeah.

Don’t think it really is even needed imo. The branching timelines enough, I’d guess. No explicit infinite statement though, just continuous branching which isn’t 2-A afaik.

There were multiple infinite possibilities statements and these possibilities are explained in the same way MWI is which is undoubtedly 2-A.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Here, the ones that say "specials" are what I'm referring to. Not the written short stories. I believe this was the origin of the "seven hells" statement as well. And Junior being a novel doesn't mean it's not a sequel to both Hero and Volume 10.

Oh, the anime specials.

Junior is clearly meant to be a spin-off of the novel, so I don’t see the point of putting in the anime section and not the novel section?

From the way it was marketed on Twitter, the Hero clarification is for fans that did not read the novel for DxD.

There is no difference between the "surface world" and the rest of the universe. The human realm has Earth as well as other celestial bodies like stars and the moon, there's no reason to assume otherwise. It'd literally be impossible for the DG to only surround multiple solar systems as things like galaxies would exist to contain them.

That’s not what I’m saying.

I’m not saying that the universe isn’t a universe, I’m talking about explicit evidence that it surrounds the entire universe and not just the human world, as in the surface Earth.

I’m saying that I don’t remember explicit quotes to that effect, which might be necessary for this particular claim.

It is relevant to alternate universes

How? Innovate Clear isn’t creating an alternate timeline or anything, and it’s not connected to Telos Karma. It simply enhances Telos Karma’s effects.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

He seems like a nice guy, but with dangerous ideals or cynical outlook. If we take into account the OG Denpachi, his best friend was erased from existence and he probably has gone through other shitty things with the nature of the Game.

The OG Denpachi ending was a bit confusing to me, maybe because I used Google Translate. But it’s not really a happy ending.

With his comparison to Issei, I imagine he might be used as a representation of how Issei might have turned out, had some events gone a bit differently.

There’s one more guy from the original main cast, a brawler named Doujima. Maybe he’ll also be introduced again.

Momiji is in the Innovate Clear world, so I don’t think she’d appear in Shin DxD.


One of the biggest mysteries. Ishibumi is just playing mysterious with everything related to Innovate.

We need that Ouryuu spinoff and/or Denpachi reboot.

That's true. And that's another thing I hope we get answered to see what he's about to make him like that if Ishibumi still remembers the OG Den and applies some of it to the hypothetical remake.

Oooh, that would be neat to have another char from there.

Right, yeah. And so far, Mitsuya's not letting her out of there or rather Momiji doesn't want to and won't force her out of it. It's technically still another prison for her, but it seems a lot more better than being stuck in a barrier made by her own clan...


Forreals. We need to know what that's about since we got known users for just about all of the original 13 Longinuses, past or current otherwise. But not so much Innovate.

There was supposed to be an Ouryuu spinoff too? Man, Ishibumi really gotta consider having others write these spin offs for him like he is for Rippu to do what became known as Junior (provided ofc they're even anything like he normally writes DxD...)

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Oh, the anime specials.

Yeah

Junior is clearly meant to be a spin-off of the novel, so I don’t see the point of putting in the anime section and not the novel section?

From the way it was marketed on Twitter, the Hero clarification is for fans that did not read the novel for DxD.

Sure ig

That’s not what I’m saying.
I’m not saying that the universe isn’t a universe, I’m talking about explicit evidence that it surrounds the entire universe and not just the human world, as in the surface Earth.
I’m saying that I don’t remember explicit quotes to that effect, which might be necessary for this particular claim.

The Human World is not the same as the Earth, as I explained, in DxD "⼈間界" is Human World, and "地球" is Earth. You're applying a false definition to "Human World" by equating it to Earth. Obviously the Human Realm refers to the dimension a the same kanji (界) used for the "world" part (which can also mean dimension) is used for the Myth Realms. Stating that the Earth is a part of the universe that most humans live in is not exactly a claim that needs a whole lot of evidence, it's kind of just standard assumption.

How? Innovate Clear isn’t creating an alternate timeline or anything, and it’s not connected to Telos Karma. It simply enhances Telos Karma’s effects.

Innovate Clear creates a universe sized space-time, and Telos Karma creates a timeline deviation (in the past) in that space-time (an unexplained occurrence) which results in the new world being a different possibility or "timeline" (In EX, timelines are created via changes in the timeline's past happening with each change spawning numerous timelines, Example: In the original timeline (the future), no time travel event happened which means AxA never happened, thanks to the change in the timeline via time travel, there was now a world in which AxA happening and DxD knowing of ExE's arrival in 30 years was possible. There'd also be a possibility that Issei still wouldn't awaken AxA, or that Azazel would have his memories wiped too. Possibility as in a new Timeline, the same thing Telos Karma creates. And we know "possibilities" is canonically used to refer to timelines in DxD, to add more detail, the Oppai scans reference the infinite possibilities of the powers Issei could obtain from them and how he could obtain them, directly correlating to the differences between the timelines. Issei unlocks Dress Break during V1 in the anime while in the LN, it's Volume 2. He first uses Pailingual during the events of Volume 6 in the anime, while in the LN, it's Volume 5. Issei first uses Pailingual to see past events in volume 9 of the anime while it's Volume 7 of the LN.) in which that deviation results in a new present outcome. Silly example: Issei goes to grab a piece of fruit, he could either pick a banana, and apple, or orange (3 Possibilities) , but because he has a small vitamin c deficiency, he wants to grab the orange. Mitsuya would use Innovate Clear to create a space around Issei and use Telos Karma to make Issei have eaten an orange a day prior. (It's explicitly stated that Telos Karma can only be used in Innovate Clear, this restriction doesn't apply to the Balance Breaker) Now in this new world, Issei picks the apple. The original world woulds still exist but the current world would be the one where Issei chose the apple. (Innovate Clear creates, not destroys) Meaning a new Issei would be created, this Issei wouldn't have recollection of eating the orange previously. And instead of there being 3 options of the fruit Issei could eat, there are infinite. This is the best way I could properly explain Innovate Clear and Telos Karma so I hope you understand. This would make TK's powers closer to Causality/Time manipulation (by creating a new timeline with a slightly different past that he chooses to influence the present) than Fate Manipulation.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

@MasqueTLDF
@Qliphoth_Bacikal
@Vietthai96
@TotalMasterInfinity

And any others that may be watching.

MasqueTLDF/Sandbox High School DxD Cosmology

vsbattles.fandom.com

Can we all look over the cosmology sandbox and comment on anything in particular?

• Particularly, I’m still eh on the timelines section with the Telos Karma and Innovate Clear section. I think we could just stick to the branching timelines as that’s way more straightforward, and I am not sure what Innovate Clear matters.
• I put a note in the DG section and the tier 4 rating as the low end based on the stars. I’m not sure if it’s needed or not though.
• I think the High 3-A conclusion for Earth could do with more proper explanation.

• I'm fine with having Telos Karma since the whole "possibilities" thing does get brought up quite a lot throughout the series, and it's even a thing that gets noted upon too in the DxD EX storyline about choices or deviations in the world that happen because of certain stuff that did or did not like Breast Goddes from ExE making contact with Issei in one (LN) but not so in another (Anime, I'm presume). Not sure about needing Innovate Clear on there tbh.
• A note about the D Gap having the low end is fine, as is the worlds that also have 4-A as a low end and possibly L2-C/2-C as the high end. Maybe it's probably also not needed too at the same time, given it's meant to be pretty vast in comparison to the known worlds even just pertaining to DxD alone like the human world, underworld, heaven, and very possibly the mythos worlds of the gods. Other than that, it's good.
• I'm actually fine with earth being High 3-A but would surely need some more proper explanation so it doesn't get dropped off the table.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

• I'm actually fine with earth being High 3-A but would surely need some more proper explanation so it doesn't get dropped off the table.

Regarding the High 3-A rating for the Earth, one problem I have with it is that it'd kinda be a bit inconsistent as Heavenly Dragon Class characters would be High 3-A (Which if you consider Infinity to actually be infinite power rather than a resistance to power null, it may be consistent as raw power lets you overcome hax in DxD like PoD, Immortality, Hole, and Time Stop. And because Infinity and High 3-A go hand in hand.), I'm not exactly sure what baggage it'd carry but I think it'd kinda be lame.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

Regarding the High 3-A rating for the Earth, one problem I have with it is that it'd kinda be a bit inconsistent as Heavenly Dragon Class characters would be High 3-A (Which if you consider Infinity to actually be infinite power rather than a resistance to power null, it may be consistent as raw power lets you overcome hax in DxD like PoD, Immortality, Hole, and Time Stop. And because Infinity and High 3-A go hand in hand.), I'm not exactly sure what baggage it'd carry but I think it'd kinda be lame.

Oh yeah....

Also, there's the fact that Ddraig said he and Albion were beings who could "shatter the world several times over with pure power" if they really aimed to destroy it. Granted that ofc depends entirely how they'd do it and how fast they can do it, but I'm guessing they'd still be a whole lot higher than we may have to put them later if that were the case no?

Especially since we have several who are confirmed to be HD-Class or higher like Dahaka, Apophis, Nerfed Ophis, and Crom Cruach...

 

[Everything12]

I'm pretty sure that Earth is still 5-B, it's just that theirs a bunch of dimensions connected to Earth that are bigger, but that doesn't mean that the planet is more durable or to blow up the rock you need to also be able to destroy all those dimensions.

So not all world destroying statements should be taken to be automatically High 3-A.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

Oh yeah....

Also, there's the fact that Ddraig said he and Albion were beings who could "shatter the world several times over with pure power" if they really aimed to destroy it. Granted that ofc depends entirely how they'd do it and how fast they can do it, but I'm guessing they'd still be a whole lot higher than we may have to put them later if that were the case no?

Regardless of the speed it'd be High 3-A as Infinite Matter can't be divided by finite time right?

Especially since we have several who are confirmed to be HD-Class or higher like Dahaka, Apophis, Nerfed Ophis, and Crom Cruach...

DxD Issei and Vali, Strada, etc...

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

I'm pretty sure that Earth is still 5-B, it's just that theirs a bunch of dimensions connected to Earth that are bigger, but that doesn't mean that the planet is more durable or to blow up the rock you need to also be able to destroy all those dimensions.

So not all world destroying statements should be taken to be automatically High 3-A.

Then it's all good~

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I'm pretty sure that Earth is still 5-B, it's just that theirs a bunch of dimensions connected to Earth that are bigger, but that doesn't mean that the planet is more durable or to blow up the rock you need to also be able to destroy all those dimensions.

So not all world destroying statements should be taken to be automatically High 3-A.

None of the other realms aside from Inner Kyoto are connected to the Earth and those realms aren't the reason for the possible rating tho

 

[Everything12]

That room and Touki is not enough for High 3-A Earth.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

That room and Touki is not enough for High 3-A Earth.

Well that's good at least.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

I'm pretty sure that Earth is still 5-B, it's just that theirs a bunch of dimensions connected to Earth that are bigger, but that doesn't mean that the planet is more durable or to blow up the rock you need to also be able to destroy all those dimensions.

So not all world destroying statements should be taken to be automatically High 3-A.

Good to clarify, and what do you think about the proposals for the other mythological dimensions and the Dimensional Gap in the sandbox?

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

There was supposed to be an Ouryuu spinoff too? Man, Ishibumi really gotta consider having others write these spin offs for him like he is for Rippu to do what became known as Junior (provided ofc they're even anything like he normally writes DxD...)

I agree, lol. But it’s apparently rare for other authors to take over writing duties in the LN industry. It’s a good thing Ishibumi already met Rippu as a huge fan of DxD back when he was younger, so he was asked to write Junior.

ATP, I’m hoping Rippu writes Ishibumi’s other ideas as well.

nnovate Clear creates a universe sized space-time, and Telos Karma creates a timeline deviation (in the past) in that space-time (an unexplained occurrence) which results in the new world being a different possibility or "timeline" (In EX, timelines are created via changes in the timeline's past happening with each change spawning numerous timelines, Example: In the original timeline (the future),

OK, I see where you’re coming from. But even if this is the case, is it much different from the branching timelines? What I mean is, does it actually add anything that EX doesn’t state already?

Just trying to make the cosmology as simple to understand as possible.

Also, there's the fact that Ddraig said he and Albion were beings who could "shatter the world several times over with pure power" if they really aimed to destroy it. Granted that ofc depends entirely how they'd do it and how fast they can do it, but I'm guessing they'd still be a whole lot higher than we may have to put them later if that were the case no?

It depends on whether the multi continental part of the @TotalMasterInfinity calc is accepted.

When it’s evaluated, we’ll see.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

I agree, lol. But it’s apparently rare for other authors to take over writing duties in the LN industry. It’s a good thing Ishibumi already met Rippu as a huge fan of DxD back when he was younger, so he was asked to write Junior.

ATP, I’m hoping Rippu writes Ishibumi’s other ideas as well.

I agree! Mitsuya-san deserves justice!.

OK, I see where you’re coming from. But even if this is the case, is it much different from the branching timelines? What I mean is, does it actually add anything that EX doesn’t state already?

Just trying to make the cosmology as simple to understand as possible.

It's just supporting evidence, without it, the cosmology would only be 2-B as there wouldn't necessarily be infinite possibilities. And I'm glad you understood my POV, I'm not exactly the smartest guy so it can be difficult to put things like that into words (that other can articulate) sometimes.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

It's explicitly stated that Telos Karma can only be used in Innovate Clear, this restriction doesn't apply to the Balance Breaker

This cannot make any sense, though. That’s also not what the quote says, and Ouryuu gives examples of Telos Karma working in the human world, so no Innovate Clear there.

Telos Karma’s Balance Breaker abilities are unknown and it has been used several times in the past without Innovate Clear. The only reason Mitsuya can use the abilities of both Sacred Gears is due to special circumstances. Obviously, the previous owners of Telos Karma did not conveniently have Innovate Clear as it’s typically unheard for someone to be born with two Sacred Gears.

And according to Slash Dog, Momiji has been locked up in a separate dimension since birth because of Telos Karma alone.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

This cannot make any sense, though. That’s also not what the quote says,

“[Innovate Clear] and [Telos Karma], these two are currently together. Now, guess what will happen when these two Longinus get together. The answer is— [The Worst]. The world created by [Innovate Clear], and the many impossible choices made to become occurrences there by [Telos Karma]. Products that could be considered miracles to deeds done by Devils, and a lot of impossible things can happen at an impossible time.”

“But, in the world of [Innovate Clear], [Telos Karma] controls the fate right?"
That's literally what it says. Two instances referring to Telos Karma specifically only able to be used in Innovate Clear.

and Ouryuu gives examples of Telos Karma working in the human world, so no Innovate Clear there.

Technically by my logic, the worlds created by Innovate Clear would also have their own Human Words. Which is stated in Volume 25. And if Innovate Clear and Telos Karma were actually used in the past, then Telos Karma wouldn't need to be linked to Innovate Clear anymore as the current world would've already been made from Innovate Clear.

Telos Karma’s Balance Breaker abilities are unknown and it has been used several times in the past without Innovate Clear. The only reason Mitsuya can use the abilities of both Sacred Gears is due to special circumstances.

Considering that Transcendental Arrival exists, wouldn't it just blatantly be incorrect to state that there's no connection?

Obviously, the previous owners of Telos Karma did not conveniently have Innovate Clear as it’s typically unheard for someone to be born with two Sacred Gears.

But it isn't impossible, Mitsuya, Kiba, and Azazel all did at one point (although none were born with them), plus thy could've just obtained it later on or collaborated with the wielder, there's nothing stating the previous user didn't have access to both. But there is something stating both is necessary to use Telos Karma. More evidence for than against. And like I said before they could've just found a way to skip past the initial stage and skip to BxB or alternatively, if at least one previous user had access to IC as well, IC wouldn't currently be necessary.

And according to Slash Dog, Momiji has been locked up in a separate dimension since birth because of Telos Karma alone.

And emotions are tied to BxB awakening. If she had awakened Balance Breaker, she would've been a problem as there'd be no restriction. My evidence isn't debunked simply because it's "unlikely" that what's being implied in the story actually happened when Sword of Betrayer and Dividing Gear were just as unlikely, but still happened.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

I agree, lol. But it’s apparently rare for other authors to take over writing duties in the LN industry. It’s a good thing Ishibumi already met Rippu as a huge fan of DxD back when he was younger, so he was asked to write Junior.

ATP, I’m hoping Rippu writes Ishibumi’s other ideas as well.



It depends on whether the multi continental part of the @TotalMasterInfinity calc is accepted.

When it’s evaluated, we’ll see.

Surely so. And it's possible of a route to go there if Ishibumi never can do those ideas.

Seeing how well received Junior given it was an idea Ishibumi originally made up and he got Rippu to write for it in the end, he probably could have him do his other ideas for spin offs while he takes care of the main series + Slash/Dog.

True. We'll have to check up on it and see where that leads, especially with those who are Heavenly Dragon Class and up who will surely scale to it in some degree.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

That's literally what it says. Two instances referring to Telos Karma specifically only able to be used in Innovate Clear.

No no, it’s only saying that the abilities are enhanced within the world created by Innovate Clear.

It doesn’t make much sense for a Sacred Gear to be mostly unusable without another Sacred Gear especially when it is a Longinus.

Considering that Transcendental Arrival exists, wouldn't it just blatantly be incorrect to state that there's no connection?

Not sure if I’m getting this.

And if Innovate Clear and Telos Karma were actually used in the past, then Telos Karma wouldn't need to be linked to Innovate Clear anymore as the current world would've already been made from Innovate Clear.

If it was such, they wouldn’t need to make a distinction that the user is almost invincible in a world created by Innovate Clear.

They would simply say any Telos Karma user is already invincible. Plus, nothing says the current world is made by Innovate Clear especially with its weakness for living things.

But there is something stating both is necessary to use Telos Karma.

I think you are just misunderstanding the quote. It doesn’t say Innovate Clear is necessary, it says the effects are enhanced.

More evidence for than against. And like I said before they could've just found a way to skip past the initial stage and skip to BxB or alternatively, if at least one previous user had access to IC as well, IC wouldn't currently be necessary.

That’s not possible for it to skip to Balance Breaker, especially since again, nobody currently knows about what the Balance Breaker does. All ascribed descriptions are based on the knowledge of Telos Karma’s base abilities.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

No no, it’s only saying that the abilities are enhanced within the world created by Innovate Clear.

It doesn’t make much sense for a Sacred Gear to be mostly unusable without another Sacred Gear especially when it is a Longinus.

Shadow Prison is only usable when the user has Blaze Black Flare. (Kinda like Flame Control with Amaterasu in Naruto)

Not sure if I’m getting this.

Hm?

If it was such, they wouldn’t need to make a distinction that the user is almost invincible in a world created by Innovate Clear.

They would simply say any Telos Karma user is already invincible. Plus, nothing says the current world is made by Innovate Clear especially with its weakness for living things.

Why would they know how it works? All they know is that it makes the impossible possible, they don't even know what the BxB is.

But Telos Karma user aren't invincible, Mitsuya himself states Telos Karma wouldn't work on Evies.

I think you are just misunderstanding the quote. It doesn’t say Innovate Clear is necessary, it says the effects are enhanced.

That’s not possible for it to skip to Balance Breaker, especially since again, nobody currently knows about what the Balance Breaker does. All ascribed descriptions are based on the knowledge of Telos Karma’s base abilities.

I disagree, I got the opposite interpretation, although we could ask the others for tie breaker?

Why couldn't Telos Karma skip to Balance Breaker? Kiba's Blade Blacksmith did.

And even if I am wrong about the connection between Innovate Clear and Telos Karma, everything else I said about Telos Karma would be correct.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Shadow Prison is only usable when the user has Blaze Black Flare. (Kinda like Flame Control with Amaterasu in Naruto)

Hm?

Why would they know how it works? All they know is that it makes the impossible possible, they don't even know what the BxB is.

But Telos Karma user aren't invincible, Mitsuya himself states Telos Karma wouldn't work on Evies.

I disagree, I got the opposite interpretation, although we could ask the others for tie breaker?

Why couldn't Telos Karma skip to Balance Breaker? Kiba's Blade Blacksmith did.

And even if I am wrong about the connection between Innovate Clear and Telos Karma, everything else I said about Telos Karma would be correct.

That’s what Mitsuya says in volume 25, that the effects of Telos Karma are certain to occur inside of Innovate Clear and gods wouldn’t be able to resist…

That’s saying gods could fight back and resist Telos Karma normally but not when it has been enhanced inside of Innovate Clear.

It’s also just odd to say Telos Karma doesn’t work normally outside of Innovate Clear, but then the Balance Breaker works conveniently without Innovate Clear. That’s a lot of hoops, especially because again, all of Telos Karma’s descriptions are without knowledge of the Balance Breaker in the first place. It’s all Telos Karma’s base applications.

I don’t remember your Shadow Prison example but it’s also not the same as Vritra’s abilities which are connected to the same entity. How can they rank something as an independent Longinus if it needs another Longinus to work? It makes no sense, especially as no one is ever going to be born with both Sacred Gears.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

I've finished looking at the new Cosmology Blog and it looks good.

 

[MasqueTLDF]

That’s what Mitsuya says in volume 25, that the effects of Telos Karma are certain to occur inside of Innovate Clear and gods wouldn’t be able to resist…
That’s saying gods could fight back and resist Telos Karma normally but not when it has been enhanced inside of Innovate Clear.

Could you share the exact quote? I'll check tomorrow.

It’s also just odd to say Telos Karma doesn’t work normally outside of Innovate Clear, but then the Balance Breaker works conveniently without Innovate Clear. That’s a lot of hoops, especially because again, all of Telos Karma’s descriptions are without knowledge of the Balance Breaker in the first place. It’s all Telos Karma’s base applications.

BxBs remove restrictions on abilities, Issei needs 10 seconds per boost in base but in not BxB. Forbidden Balor View's Balance Breaker allows time stop outside of the user's FOV, unlike the base form. That's just how they work. Sure, I dont't disagree with the last point.

I don’t remember your Shadow Prison example but it’s also not the same as Vritra’s abilities which are connected to the same entity. How can they rank something as an independent Longinus if it needs another Longinus to work? It makes no sense, especially as no one is ever going to be born with both Sacred Gears.

"independent Longinus" isn't really a term that's ever been used, and I still think Shadow Prison is a valid example. And people being born with multiple sacred gears isn't impossible, why would it be?

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

independent Longinus" isn't really a term that's ever been used, and I still think Shadow Prison is a valid example. And people being born with multiple sacred gears isn't impossible, why would it be?

I don’t mean it as a canon term per se. I’m saying it doesn’t make sense for something that cannot function on its own to be ranked as a Longinus. As in, it means Telos Karma on its own can’t function independently and is basically worthless unless someone cooperative conveniently happens to have Innovate Clear and they work together. As I said, it requires logical hoops.

Shadow Prison is unique to Vritra and his case is made more unique since he was split into different parts. Not at all similar with the example here. I also don’t remember where it was said to require the other Sacred Gear, would have been pretty useless for the other owner that gave it to Saji.

Don’t think we’ve ever seen or heard of anyone born with more than one Sacred Gear. Even so, Augusta can’t use two Sacred Gears at once after stealing Lavinia’s body, without risking her life. Mitsuya also isn’t technically housing both Sacred Gears, but harnessing their abilities with his terminals. No matter the case, using two Longinus at once was a risk to Augusta’s life force, hence why she only used one at a time.

 

[Burning_Full_Fingers]

Then I guess we could adjust the Earth rating based on what @Everything12 said? Should we also wait for their evaluation on the mythological worlds and the Dimensional Gap?

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

I wanted to wait until the new power scale thread to talk about this, but after doing the Infinity Blaster calculation I felt I should mention it.

First of all, I agree with this, more specifically with using Boost as a multiplier

But I am also aware of how difficult it will be for them to accept it.

But DxD's power scaling also needs to be updated so I feel I should offer an alternative without Boost.

This will be long so I will talk in parts.

Spoiler: 1# Multipliers

First we have the known multipliers

-Twice Critical is the first to be mentioned, we are told that it doubles the base powers of its user, it is a x2.

-The King's Piece, this does not have a fixed multiplier, what is said is that it can increase power by a factor of 10 to 100 times, minimum x10, maximum x100.

Then we have the multipliers that we deduce.

-the difference between Sairaorg Sealed and Rias V9 is more than 10 times, therefore minimum x10

-Chaos Edge Asura Ravage, the Balance Breaker subspecies of Seigfried's Twice Critical, which allows him to have four Twice Criticals growing from his back, each doubling his power, that is 2x2x2x2 = x16.

- The Serpent of Ophis, the power boost of the King Piece is compared to the Serpent of Ophis, so it must also be a factor of 10 to 100 times.

-Polar Night Longinus Chakravartin, it is stated that the power of it is orders of magnitude larger than the base of it, as one order of magnifus is a factor of 10^1, the multiplier should be at least 10^2 bone x100 .

-Illegal Move Triaina, each form increases a characteristic that corresponds to the 3 pieces that are: Rook (physical strength (Striking Strength and Lifting Strength) and defense (Durability)), Knight (Speed) and Bishop (aura power), now Welsh Dragonic Rook is the Tower form, in this form the armor becomes 5 or 6 times thicker, therefore it can be understood that its Durability is 5 or 6 times greater, as Welsh Dragonic Rook increases both defense and physical strength. You can understand that the force is 5 or 6 times greater, therefore the same factor can be applied to the other shapes, minimum x5, maximum x6.

Finally, extra multipliers (assumed by me)

-Ajuka commented at one point that a x2 or x3 times multiplier is considered weak, this agrees with Raynare considering that the increase of Twice Critical(x2) is weak, therefore any significant power increase in DxD, that is to say any case in which a character's power grows to a degree that cannot be considered insignificant should be greater than x3, minimum x4

-The Maximum Power of the Boosted Gear: Scale Mail, Illegal Move Triaina exceeds the limits of the normal Balance Breaker, and is an increase of a factor of at least x5, the increase in power provided by the Boost is greater than that of Twice Critical which is a x2 and is not considered a weak increase, therefore the Maximum Power should be a minimum increase of x4.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Spoiler: One-Shot and Stomp in DxD

There are 2 situations in DxD that can help us determine what difference in power constitutes a Stomp and/or a One-Shot in DxD

First Situation: Diodora Snake of Ophis Vs Issei Balance Breaker

[Welsh Dragon Balance Breaker!!!!!!]

Something exploded inside me.

“Diodoraaaaaaaa! You! You are the one person I will never forgive!”

I got engulfed by the red aura, and I was now enveloped by the plate armour which has the power of Sekiryuutei in it. Maybe the Sacred Gear responded to my feelings, I turned into Balance Breaker before the two minutes countdown!

“Buchou, everyone. Please don’t interfere.”

“Ise. We will defeat him together. – That’s what I would like to say, but it looks like we can’t stop you. – You can’t hold back, okay?”

Buchou gave me the best reply. Yes, that’s what I’m planning on doing.

“Ddraig, can you hear me?”

[What is it, Partner.]

“Let me do as I want just for today.”

[……Alright.]

Seeing me, Diodora laughs with joy. His whole body is wrapped in a deep black aura.

“Ahahahaha! Amazing! So this is Sekiryuutei! But I also powered-up! With the snake Ophis gave me that is! I can kill you instan~”

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!

I ignited the fire from the boosters on my back, and closed our distance with an instant dash.

BANG!

I punched sharply into Diodora's stomach before he could finish his sentence.

“………Gaahah!”

Diodora's body bends. His face gets distorted to that of receiving intense pain. It seems like he couldn't react to my speed. I push forward my fist, and tried to destroy his insides.

Gough……

Diodora vomits things inside his stomach along with blood. I ask while pulling back my fist.

“And the instant kill you were talking about?”

Diodora steps back while holding on to his stomach. His expression doesn't have the confidence he had before.

“Ku! With something like this! I’m a High-class devil! The blood relative of the current Maou Beelzebub!”

Diodora puts his hand forward, and makes many bullets of demonic-powers.

“There is no way that a noble high blood like myself will lose to a lowly, filthy, and vulgar reincarnated-devil like you!”

Diodora's infinite number of demonic-powered bullets showers down on me like rain drops. I just walk towards him without dodging it. I deflect the bullets with my hand, and I close my distance with him. Even if the bullets hit my armour, I advance forward without any care.

Thank you, Old-man Tannin. That torture isn't something which only became useful. The enemy is supposed to be stronger than Buchou, but his attacks aren't scary at all.

[That’s right. The training with the Dragon-King trained you quite a lot. In the match against Sitri you couldn't show the result, but with no restrictions you can release your power. The durability of the armour is more stable than that time in the match against Sitri.]

Yeah, Ddraig. I couldn't use my full power in the fight against Saji, but its different now. And with this guy as my opponent, I can hit him with the intent to kill.

[In terms of simple battle power, you are quite the opponent right now.]

When I came right in front of him, Diodora stops attacking and tried to make a distance.

GON!

I ignited the boosters on my back and caught up to Diodora immediately. Then he created many defence barriers.

“It looks thinner than Vali's barriers.”

BREAK!

My fist breaks all of his defence barriers with ease.

HIT!

Then a punch to his face! I finally did it! There isn't a hit which makes me feel better than this! Because of the impact of being hit, Diodora slams on to the ground. His face is bleeding, and he also had tears in his eyes.

“……It hurts. It hurts. It hurts! Why! My demonic-power hit you! I was supposed to have had my power increased drastically with Ophis's power!”

I lift Diodora's body……and hit him with my fist covered in aura! A strike to his stomach!

“Guha! Gaha!”

Then a strike to his face! It’s not over yet! I gathered the aura to my right hand, and I tried to hit him with the enormous amount of aura!

“I won’t be defeated by a damn rotten dragon like you!”

Diodora put his left hand forward, and creates a thick wall of aura.

BANG! BREAK-BREAK!

My fist hit the wall, and my impact was stopped.

This….. What can this possibly do!

“Ahahahahahaha! Did you see! I have higher demonic-power than you! There is no way that a power idiot Sekiryuutei can defeat me!”

I then used the power of Sekiryuutei in front of Diodora who is smiling.

“-How about I show you the power of the power-idiot then?”

[Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost!]

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOON!

Intense amount of aura burst out of the booster, and the impact of my punch increases.

BANG!

A small crack is made on the wall. And then….

BREAK!

The wall perishes with my fist which increased its impact.

“Sorry. I’m a power idiot, so I can only use my power like this. But if you are my opponent, then this should be enough.”

“Hee.”

Diodora changed his expression right away.

“Don’t make our Asia cry!”

I released my punch at him while shouting!

CRUSH!

I crushed and bend Diodora's left hand which was put forward, and from there I directed my fist towards his face!

HIT!

My fist nailed into his face! With my strike, Diodora flies back and crashes against a pillar. Diodora who fell on the ground gets up and then shouts.

“This must be a lie! There is no way I will be beaten! I won against Agares! I’m also planning to win against Bael! There’s no way I will lose to the untalented heir of the Great-King! Gremory who holds affection can’t even be my opponent! I’m Diodora from the House of Astaroth!”

When Diodora puts his hand upwards, many circular sharp things made from demonic-powers appear around me. The sharp objects all point towards me, and come at me like missiles!

-I won’t be able to dodge all of it!

I lower my head down, or I jump to the side to evade it. But there is a limit to it. I fend the sharp objects with a punch or kick. The tip of it bends, and it wraps around me as if it has its own will!

CRACK!

It goes around me finding the thinnest part of the armour, and it destroys it to pierce my body!

Shit…… It hurts! So he gathered the demonic-power to the tip, and opened a small hole on my armour with it. Since he can’t take me on from the front, he decided to aim for the single point, huh………

But, not yet! I used both my hands to pull out all the sharp object at once! Because I pulled it out by force, my blood spills on the ground. Diodora tries to do the same attack again, so I used my booster to shorten my distance with him and released my kick.

CRUSH…..

A sour sound echoes throughout the shrine. My kick hits Diodora's right thigh and it seems like it crushed his bone.

“Daaaaamn itttt!”

Diodora who put on a painful expression points his hand towards me and started to gather demonic-powers immediately. He’s trying to shoot the demonic-power with his utmost level. I also directed my hand towards him. I gather dragon aura to my hand!

DOOOOOOON!

A red light shoots out from my right hand, and a massive demonic-power is also shot from Diodora's hand.

DOOOOOOON!

Our shot collides and pushes against each other….. But with something like this……. You won’t be able to stop me!

“Goooooooo!”

[Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost!]

The power which has been increased by my Sacred Gear passes on to it, and the power of my Dragon Shot increases!

DON!

My Dragon Shot blows away his shot and it skids through along his side. My dragon’s aura which went past him creates a huge hole in a section of the shrine, it pierces through the wall and goes outside.

Let's break this fight down into parts.

1) Issei enters BxB, Diodora is confident but Issei closes the distance without Diodora being able to react and hits him in the stomach that causes Diodora a lot of pain and makes him vomit blood.

This makes it seem like Issei Blitzes Diodora, and also shows that Issei can seriously hurt Diodora.

2) Diodora has a villain tantrum and responds by attacking with blasts of demonic power, Issei does not even bother to dodge them and simply deflects them although some of them reach him but the effect is not described, only that Issei continued advancing while ignoring those attacks until he approached Diodora

this shows Issei as being so strong that Diodora's attacks cannot hurt him.

3) Diodora, scared, tries to defend himself with magical barriers but Issei easily breaks them with one blow and in the process hits Diodora in the face, drawing blood.

once again Issei is shown as superior to Diodora

4) Issei picks up Diodora, gathers aura in his fist and begins to brutalize Diodora

I think at this point we can consider this a Stomp, unless...

5) While being brutalized Diodora manages to compose himself and creates a magical barrier, Issei hits the barrier but his fist is unable to break it

And here begins the interesting part, before Issei managed to break Diodora's magical barriers very easily with his fists, now his aura-charged cigars (which should be stronger) cannot break Diodora's magical barrier.

6) Issei uses Boost to the maximum, increases the aura of his fist and manages to create a crack in the barrier before breaking it and proceeding to break Diodora's hand and hit him in the face sending him flying

By using Boost, Issei once again surpasses Diodora

7) Diodora gets up, has another villain tantrum and proceeds to create sharp objects of demonic power that he then throws at Issei, Issei realizes he will not be able to dodge them, he defends himself with fists and kicks but some manage to hit the thin parts of his armor, piercing it and drawing blood, after this Issei closes the distance and kicks Diodora in the thigh, breaking the bone.

Another interesting thing, unlike before where he did not even think about dodging Diodora's attacks, this time Issei does want to dodge them, but he is unable to do so because there are many and very fast, the attacks that hit (even if it is in thin parts of his armor) manage to break it and damage him, unlike before where Diodora's attacks had no effect

8) Screaming in pain, Diodora gathers all of his demonic power to the maximum in attack, Issei responds the same, the energy blasts collide and remain even until Issei uses Boost to the maximum and his attack manages to surpass Diodora's

once again something interesting, Issei and Diodora have beam struggle and both are even in the clash until Issei uses Boost

What can we get out of this? While at first Issei BxB seemed to be far superior to Diodora Serpent of Ophis, this all seems to be a result of Diodora being overconfident and not giving it his all, once Diodora begins to get desperate and draws out his true power he proves to be able to stop the Issei's attacks, damaging him and Matching his raw power, in those moments only using Boost Issei demonstrates clear superiority over Diodora

Second Situation: Issei Balance Breaker Vs Sealed Sairaorg

[Welsh Dragon Balance Breaker!!!!!!!!]

As the gauntlet sounded out, it gave off a flash of red light, covering my body. The red aura took on the form of armour—Boosted Gear Scale Mail!

Pak!

Giant dragon wings spread from behind my back and I readied for attack. With a flowing motion, Sairaorg-san also entered a stance. ...Though I have already seen the match video between Sairaorg-san and the delinquent from the Glasya-Labolas family, Sairaorg-san’s speed was still faster than expected. Even god-speed Kiba would feel threatened by this speed. Probably, it is faster than me. ...I cannot keep letting my opponents make the first move. I must take the initiative with suicidal abandon!

GOooooOOOO!

Firing up my back boosters to the max, I fly straight forward! Preparing a straight right punch, I thrust forward! Next is the fist in one motion—! ...Why isn’t he dodging!? Faced with my formidable straight punch, Sairaorg-san was not making any effort to evade! Bastard! Are you saying there is no need to dodge!? Fine, you can take my punch head on!

Crash!

With a deafening sound, my straight right punch made contact with Sairaorg-san’s face! —! H-he really didn’t dodge! Not only that, it was a clean and perfect hit!

A chill. At the instant of contact, I suddenly felt an indescribable chill, forcing me to rapidly take several steps back. After distancing myself, I put up a stance to attack again. ...Sairaorg-san’s body showed no signs of injury. ...Wait a minute. I put quite a lot of force into that straight punch... Though Boost wasn’t used, to think he is completely unhurt without defending. Sairaorg-san pointed at the part where he got hit and smiled.

“An excellent punch. Straight and to the point, a pure punch full of strong will. A normal Devil would have lost to such a punch. But—”

Sairaog-san vanished before my eyes—

“—I am no ordinary Devil.”

Sairaorg-san’s voice and fist next came from behind my back!

Crash! Kaching!

Sairaorg-san’s fist pounded towards me! —! When did he get behind my back!? Damn it! Though I raised my arms to defend, the heavy force of the punch was shocking! Even though the attack was caught by my crossed arms... but the gauntlet! The gauntlet portion of the armour was destroyed by the punch just now!? My body having completely lost balance, I quickly pulled away by shooting demonic power out through the back boosters.

...So fast! My eyes couldn’t follow him at all! By the way, he vanished! I thought my eyes were used to catching high speed motions from training with Kiba! Did I underestimate him? Perhaps a bit. But still, I knew that wasn’t the only reason. By the way, my arms were numb and had no feeling! For my arms to become like that from the impact of the gauntlets’ destruction just now... No, at least my fingers can still move. I can still fight! My bones are still OK!

Ddraig, please regenerate the gauntlets.

[Ah, understood.]

Red aura surrounded my arms and the gauntlets were formed once again. Sairaorg-san gave an impressed smile.

“Hoho. You didn’t get sent flying. Well, that was just a hello punch.”

...A hello punch!? A hello punch destroyed my armour!? W-what kind of joke is this!? This is the first time anyone broke apart Boosted Gear Scale Mail with just their bare hands!

“I have three weapons; strongly built body, fast legs and martial arts. Here I come!”

Sairaorg-san vanished again! The side!? My opponent has instantly appeared beside me! I shrank back to avoid Sairaorg-san’s attack on my body—

Howling!

It was the sound of the punch breaking through the wind! What amazing force from the punch!

Creak...

With a blunt sound, cracks appeared on my armour near the abdomen! How can this be!? Simply brushing past was enough to crack it open!?

“Damn it!”

I cursed and punched back.

Crash!

But Sairaorg-san took it with his face again without dodging! No damage!

Go!

Feeling a counter-attack coming, I pulled back again that instant using the thrusters to jump back. The vigorous sound of air rushing was heard. Sairaorg-san’s kick missed...but the force of the missed kick caused huge cracks to appear from the center of the training hall that rose along the four walls! If that kick were to hit... I felt shivers along my spine. —With that, I was already panting. Just a few exchanges and it was already clear. —Extremely strong. Unimaginable. How can this Devil be from the same generation as Buchou and Diodora Astaroth!? He is far stronger than Diodora!

[Ah, this really surprises me. This man from the Bael family has trained his power to the max. Using Rating Game types, this is a power type who has kept increasing offensive power again and again. How interesting. A man who pursues pure destructive power. Totally extreme. It makes me very interested.]

Wow, Ddraig showing an interest towards someone apart from Maou and other Dragons. True, this was someone so strong that Diodora is entirely no match for him. Perhaps he is stronger than Rias several fold, no, more than ten fold. The Devil born in the Great King’s family without inheriting the Power of Destruction. With nothing but his body, his only choice was to train his body and successfully became the heir. He was like me, a Devil without inborn talent. —This was not the result of short term half-assed training. And to think this young Devil was from the same generation as Buchou. ...Buchou truly was in a difficult situation to compete with such a person. Sairaorg-san is definitely a massive wall obstructing Buchou’s dreams. Furthermore, he is an even higher and steeper, absolute wall in front of my dreams.

“Amazing.”

I said it naturally. From that brief exchange, I was already full of intense respect and admiration.

“So you can reach this level of strength completely through training?”

Faced with my question, Sairaorg-san replied.

“—I just believe in my own body, that’s all.”

Truly an amazing character. This sentence made me understand that this person must have conquered unimaginable obstacles and hardships. And because of that, I must attempt to give my all and test my own limits. Even if it is me, I cannot admit defeat!

...This was a good chance to try out Beelzebub-sama’s suggestion. After Beelzebub-sama helped me to adjust the pieces within my body, he also made a personal suggestion. About me and the pieces—

“Promotion to Rook!”

I made the declaration, promoting to Rook. Yes, Rook, not Queen. Power flowed into my body. With that, offensive and defensive power rose accordingly!

“The Rook?”

Sairaorg-san showed a surprised expression towards my promotion. He must have expected me to promote to Queen. Sairaorg-san then disappeared once again! —It’s coming! I sent power into the legs and entered a defensive stance as if my feet were rooted to the floor! Gritting my teeth, I wrapped my body in aura!

[Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost! Boost!!]

Using the Dragon’s power, I enhanced my defense! I also didn’t forget to power up my right fist at the same time—

Crash!

Sairaorg-san appeared from the front, and sent a heavy punch into my abdomen. —A powerful impact! The force of the punch penetrates straight into my backbone!

...Cough.

Spreading throughout my entire body was intense pain as well as a feeling like everything was drying out! The impact transmitted straight to my feet, with my legs trembling non-stop... Thanks to having lowered my center of gravity, I withstood it. Though my consciousness was nearly lost at one point, I returned to full awareness! If I hadn’t gritted my teeth and struggled to endure it, my consciousness would definitely have been overburdened and lost! The abdomen armour... Though damaged, it has not been completely shattered. Aiming at the exact instant when Sairaorg-san withdrew his fist, I once again sent a powerful straight punch into Sairaorg-san’s face!

Crash!

Though it felt like punching a thick stone wall, I felt through my hand a tiny feeling of something cracking.

Spurt!

Fresh blood came out of Sairaorg-san, but at the same time—

Let's break this fight down into parts.

1) Issei enters BxB and launches himself at Sairaorg, Sairaorg doesn't even bother to dodge and Issei hits him square in the face, Sairaorg is unharmed

Sairaorg's superiority over Issei is shown here

2) Sairaorg moves behind Issei so fast that Issei can't see it coming and throws a punch at him, Issei defends himself with his arms but the blow breaks the armor on his arms.

Sairaorg Blitz Issei and once again demonstrates his superiority

3) Issei moves away from Sairaorg, but once again Sairaorg cuts the distance so fast that he can't see it coming, he stands next to him and throws a fist at him, Issei manages to dodge and the attack only grazes him but still breaks his armor, Issei responds by hitting Sairaog again and again fails to damage him, Sairaorg responds with a kick, Issei steps back and manages to dodge the attack, he comments that Sairaorg is so strong that Diodora would not be a Rival.

Once again Sairaorg Blitzes Issei, his superiority is such that just touching Issei breaks the armor and Issei's attacks are still ineffective.

4) Issei uses Promotion and promotes Rook, his physical defense and physical power increases, then he uses Boost to the maximum and enhances all his attributes, Sairaorg once again cuts the distance so fast that Issei cannot see him and hits Issei in the stomach, The attack cracks the armor but does not break it, Issei responds by hitting Sairaorg in the face, drawing blood.

As you can see, by increasing his powers to their maximum, especially his strength and defense, Issei manages to more or less match the guy who was overwhelming him before.

with that we get this

Issei BxB = Ophis Serpent Diodora

Issei BxB Maximum Power = Sairaorg Contents

Issei BxB Maximum Power >> Diodora Serpent of Ophis

Sairaorg Content >> Issei BxB

Sairaorg Contents >> Diodora Serpent of Ophis

With the difference in power that exists between Issei BxB Standard Power and Issei BxB Maximum Power we can determine the difference in power in DxD that is needed for a battle to be a Stomp, this case would be a x4, obviously a One-Shot would be the same or greater than a Stomp

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Spoiler: Low Class

I started talking about the lower levels of DxD
everything starts with this

HIT!!

The hard sound echoes. My fist is dug into her face, and I pushed my fist even further!

Raynare went flying backwards with my punch.

GASHAAAAAAAAN!!

The Fallen Angel crashes into the wall while making a very loud noise. The wall broke and there is a big hole in the wall. Dust starts to spread everywhere.

When the dust disappears, there is nothing left in the direction I punched Raynare towards.

The hole continues till outside of the building where Raynare is on the ground.

She isn’t moving. I can’t tell if she is dead but she won’t be able to move for a while.

Raynare survived being punched through a wall with enough force to create some dust, although she was briefly knocked out.
in Vsbattle there is a calculation for a similar feat
Assuming that the dust released is an indication of violent fragmentation it would be more or less 13708143.75 Joules or 0.003276 Tons, that is Wall level + and is 913.87625 times the baseline Wall level.
If it were 15% stronger it would be Small Building
Therefore anyone who scales with reference to it can be said to be hundreds of times above the Wall Level baseline.

Those who would escalate would be:

Dohnaseek, Kalawarna and Mittelt who are fallen angels of the same level

Yuuto Kiba Beginning of the Series was able to hurt Raynare and talked about her as if she could defeat her alone.

Freed Sellzen Base scales for fighting alongside Yuuto Start of the Series

Koneko Toujou is much stronger than Freed Base and Yuuto

Issei Base Start of the Series, although a little weaker than Raynare, was able to hurt Freed Base with Promotion.

Asia Argento as a human withstood a hit from Freed Base and as a devil she should be comparable to Issei Base Beginning of the Series since the latter is weak even by the standards of an average Low Class Devil.

Mira-chan escalates to Issei Base Start of the Series since she easily defeated him in their first meeting.

Issei Base Post-First Training is stronger than before and can keep up with Mira

Asia Post-First Training surpasses Issei Base Post-First Training who declares himself the weakest of Rias Gremory's Peerage

Ile and Nel, Burent, Marion and Shuriya, Burent are superior to Mira since the latter is the weakest member of Riser Fenix's Nobility.

Ni and Li escalate to being superior Issei Post-First Training

Yuuto Kiba Post-First Training was able to defeat Marion and Shuriya, Burent together.

Karlamine climbs to that Yuuto Post-First Training

Siris and Mihae climb Karlamine

Issei Second Liberation is 4 times more than before by being able to defeat Karlamine, Siris, Mihae, Ni and Li with a combined attack with Yuuto Post-First Training, after Partial Dragonification and Awakening the Incomplete Balance Breaker he became stronger

At this point they should have already crossed the line to the Small Building level and it would be at least 0.005 Tons
which means the following scale to that and are Small Building level

Rassei escalates to being able to hurt Yuuto Post-First Training and Issei Second Liberation

Yuuto Kiba Post-Training Base in the Underworld scales to be stronger than his previous self

Koneko Toujou Post-Training in the Underworld is superior to her previous self, Higher with Nekomata Mode

Ruruku Nimura Home Series is comparable to Koneko Nekomata Mode

Reya Kusaka Start of the Series should be comparable to Ruruku Start of the Series

Momo Hanaki Start of the Series should be comparable to Ruruku Start of the Series

Asia Argento Post-Training in the Underworld should be superior to her previous self

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Spoiler: Middle Class Part 1

we start with Xenovia and Excalibur Destruction
is 0.42754776840344 Tons of TNT, Building level, 1.7 times the baseline
Irina Excalibur Mimic and Freed Sellzen Excalibur Rapidly would escalate to that.
Genshirou Saji Start of the Series may also escalate due to being able to retain Freed Excalibur Rapidly
If so, Genshirou Saji Post-Training in the Underworld and Post-Training Tannin Issei Base also escalate.
Freed Sellzen Excalibur Fused having the power of 4 Excalibur is 4 times the power of Xenovia Excalibur Destruction, 1.72 Tons (Building level +)
If it was 16% stronger it would be Large Building level

The one who escalate to this is Yuuto Kiba Balance Breaker

on the other hand Xenovia Durandal is much superior to Freed Excalibur Fused and therefore crosses to the next level, at least 2 Tons, Large Building level

Those who escalate to that would be:

Freed Sellzen Chimera who is superior to his self with Excalibur Fuserd

Xenovia Post-Training in the Underworld is superior to her previous self

Yuuto Kiba Balance Breaker Post Training in the Underworld scale Xenovia Post-Training in the Underworld

Tsubaki Shinra Home of the Series is able to fight Yuuto Balance Breaker Post Training in the Underworld and Xenovia Post Training in the Underworld

Tomoe Meguri Home of the Series is able to fight Xenovia Post-Training in the Underworld

Tsubasa Yura Beginning of the Series is able to damage Xenovia Post-Training in the Underworld

Jeanne Base is able to fight Tsubaki

Irina Reincarnated Angel is able to fight Jeanne Base

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

On the matter of Telos Karma needing Innovate to work properly, I just think it's weird for that to even need it else it wouldn't even be considered a Longinus or even a rather particular broken-ish Sacred Gear if it wasn't a Longinus.

Even in just the main series itself, we had this spoken of about Telos Karma and what it can do:

Spoiler: The Power of Probability, Christ Edition

“[Telos Karma] is a Longinus that’s capable of creating choices that aren’t possible forcibly.”

Roygun-san said as she put her hand on her chin.

“The thirteenth Longinus…is said to be heretical, or a Longinus crowned with the forbidden number. Anyway, the rumours that I heard are mostly bad.”

Yes, I also didn’t hear a lot of good things about [Telos Karma]. It’s also the cause for it to be mentioned in legends. Nakiri-kun then picked up a stone from the ground and pointed it at Xenovia.

“For example, if I threw this rock to Prez Xenovia, I think there are a lot of possibilities that could occur. She could repel it, dodge it, cut it, get hit by it, and other possibilities.”

“It won’t hit. I can do at least that much, y’know?” answered Xenovia.

Nakiri-kun then said “That might be true if it’s the president”, before continuing

“Simply by throwing this rock at someone, a variety of possibilities are generated. That Longinus is capable of creating the choices that are impossible. It can cause something like — the [Beelzebut] system suddenly experiencing a failure that only affects President Xenovia’s surroundings that makes her unable to react to the stone that I threw, and she gets hit.”

Ravel-san then said

“…I heard that it can turn the possibility of a phenomenon into an unexpected occurrence…”

Nakiri-kun said as he dropped the stone on his hand.

“In human history, there are some things or phenomena that are impossible to explain, right? Even after history has changed drastically, historians and researchers still can’t give an answer as to how things became that way. That’s because [Telos Karma] supposedly took part in some of those occurrences.”

A Longinus that took part in some of the historical events in Japan and Europe—.

Nakiri-kun then added

“That’s why [Telos Karma] is also known as [History Breaker].”

This Longinus was said to be a different type of ‘dangerous’ from the other high-class Longinus by all mythologies. Consequently, it seemed like the user’s whereabouts had always been searched for, but… The first one who found that person — no, the first one who came in contact with that person was Ajuka Beelzebub-sama.

Rias-oneesan then murmured.

“The Longinus which doesn’t have detailed information about its Balance Breaker confirmed yet was [Telos Karma] right?”

“I don’t even want to imagine the Balance Breaker of a Sacred Gear that could change the course of history.” said Xenovia who seemed exhausted.

---DxD Volume 25, Life 2

Besides, I'd have to really do some workarounds on a DxD fanfic bringing up Telos Karma early on in the series owo.

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Spoiler: Middle Class Part 2

We start with the Mass Produced Evil Dragons that possess a series of feats:
1)Destroy Buildings
2)Burn Buildings to Ashes
3)Destroy Warships
4)Destroy Fighter Planes
If we go to the Real World page we will see the durability of modern fighter planes
Wall level: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.
Small Building level: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.
In Real World we also find warships, for this I will assume fragmentation,
Baltimore-class Heavy Cruiser: 236 Tons (Multi-City Block level)

Cleveland-class Light Cruiser: 227 Tons (Multi-City Block level)

Fletcher-class Destroyer: 45,17 Tons (City Block level)

Iowa-class Battleship: 1,195 Kilotons (Small Town level)

Ohio-class Submarine: 380 Tons (Multi-City Block level)

Here is the calculation to turn a building into ashes, is 850.38 Tons of TNT, Multi-City Block level+
The buildings they destroy are described as tall, if we assume they are skyscrapers, we have this calculation.
it is 10.4785 kilotons, Town level
Regardless of what value is assigned to Mass Produced Evil Dragons, there are a number of characters that scale to them and are.

Nilrem Wizards are declared Middle Class just like Mass Produced Evil Dragons

Wizards of Hexennacht who should be comparable to Wizards of Nilrem

Gasper Vladi Start of the Series who is able to subdue the Wizards of Nilrem

Yuuto Kiba Base of the Heroic Oppai Dragon Arc should be comparable to the Middle Class Devil

Post-Underworld Training Gasper Vladi is superior to his previous self as his power grows passively.

Misteeta Sabnock can damage Gasper Post-Underworld Training even when weakened

Low Class Grimm Reapers are stronger than Middle Class Devils

Issei Base Post-Samael is able to defeat the Wizards of Hexennacht

Tomoe Meguri Post-Demonic Beast Riot is able to easily defeat Mass Produced Evil Dragons

Ruruku Nimura Post-Demonic Beast Riot is able to easily defeat Mass Produced Evil Dragons

Tsubaki Shinra Post-Demonic Beast Riot is able to easily defeat Mass Produced Evil Dragons

Tsubasa Yura Post-Demonic Beast Riot is able to easily defeat Mass Produced Evil Dragons

Momo Hanaki Post-Demonic Beast Riot should be comparable Ruruku Post-Demonic Beast Riot

Reya Kusaka Post-Demonic Beast Riot should be comparable Ruruku Post-Demonic Beast Riot,

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

Spoiler: Middle Class Part 3

These are basically extras.
Xenovia Ex-Durandal power contained makes a crater
is 2.31 Megatons of TNT (Small city level)
If it were 58% stronger it would be Small City level +
Xenovia Incomplete Ex-Durandal exceeds its contained power, so it should be 3,68 Megatons , Small City level +

Ladora Bune and Zekka Miyamoto Base is comparable to Xenovia Incomplete Ex-Durandal so scale to that

Akeno Start of Series creates a storm that is, according to this calculation, 6 Megatons, Small City level +

Akeno after her First Training should be superior to her previous self, thus entering City level, at least 6.3 Megatons

Yubelluna Home Series is comparable to this Akeno, and therefore also scales

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

I still know exactly what the power of Telos Karma is,
is Probability Manipulation and/or Causality Manipulation and/or Fate Manipulation and/Plot Manipulation?

 

[TotalMasterInfinity]

now the cool ones are coming

Spoiler: High Class Part 1

It all starts with Issei's Dragon Shot
It is normal to assume that this is spraying, but facts such as Vali's demonic power generating heat, rather than Dragon Blaster and Infinity Blaster vaporizing, indicate that this is vaporization.
in that case it is 4.9 Gigatons, Island Level
The first to scale is Koneko Toujou Nekomata Mode Level 2, whose power is close to the power of a High Class Demon so she scales the baseline, 4.3 Gigatons, Island Level
Gandoma Balam is comparable to Koneko Nekomata Mode Level 2, so it also scales
The number of characters that scale to Issei's Dragon Shot is absurd, here is the list I made but I may have skipped someone.

1# Those that are comparable to Issei's Dragon Shot, at least 4.9 Gigatons, Island Level:
Zeoticus Gremory, Venelana Gremory, Latia Astaroth, Iryuka Glasya-Labolas, Issei Base Shin DxD, Lilith Children, Tsubaki Shinra Shin DxD, Genshirou Saji Base Shin-DxD, Yuuto Kiba Base Shin DxD, Asia Argento Base Shin DxD, Shirone Toujou Base , Euclid Lucifuge, Diodora Astaroth Base, Avi Amon

2# Those that surpass the previous ones, >4.9 Gigatons, Island Level:
Issei Base Beginning of the Maximum Power Series, it is superior to its power with 12 Boost
Issei Post-Training Tannin Maximum Power, should be higher than his previous maximum power
Issei Balance Breaker Incomplete, it is greater than its maximum power by going beyond its limits
Riser Fenix Start of the Series Start of the Series, scale to Issei Balance Breaker Incomplete
Rias Gremory Beginning of the Series, is comparable to Riser Beginning of the Series
Ravel Fenex Beginning of the Series, scales to be able to destroy Riser's head Beginning of the Series
Cerberus escalates to being able to have a power clash with Rias Start of the Series
Sona Sitri Beginning of the Series, Seekvaria Agares Beginning of the Series are comparable to Rias Gremory Beginning of the Series

3# Those that surpass the previous ones, >>4.9 Gigatons, Island Level:
Rias Post-Training, Sona Post-Training, Akeno Post-Raikou Release, Kushia Abadon V9, Issei Base Post-Samael Maximum Power being far superior to his previous maximum power

4# Those that surpass the previous ones, >>>4.9 Gigatons, Island Level:
Zephyrdor Glasya-Labolas, Kuroka Base, Regulus, Yuuto Kiba Balance Breaker of the Heroic Arc Oppai Dragon, Seigfried Base

5# Those who can easily defeat the 1#, at least 19.6 Gigatons, Island level:
Ruruku Nimura Counter Balance and Millarca Vordenburg; both can easily defeat the Lilith Children
Elmenhilde Karnstein, is stronger than Ruruku Counter Balance
Marius Tepes is comparable to Elmenhilde Karnstein
Valerie Tepes is probably comparable to Marius Tepes
Koneko Toujou Shirone Mode

6# Siegfred Scale
Seigfried Twice Critical is twice as strong as its base, 2 *>>>4.9 Gigatons = >>>9.8 Gigatons, Island level.
Seigfried Balance Breaker is 16 times its base, 16*>>>4.9 Gigatons = >>>78.4 Gigatons, Island level+; Probably at least 100 Gigatons, Large Island level.
Seigfried Chaos Drive is superior to his Balance Breaker, >>>>78.4 Gigatons, Island level+; Probably at least >100 Gigatons, Large Island level.

7# Those who scale Seigfried Chaos Drive. >>>>78.4 Gigatons, Island level+; Probably at least >100 Gigatons, Large Island level.
Akeno Fallen Angel Mode is capable of severely damaging Seigfried Chaos Drive
Jeanne Balance Breaker can face Akeno Fallen Angel Mode
Irina Holy-Demonic Sword can face Jeanne Balance Breaker
Xenovia Complete Ex-Durandal can face Jeanne Balance Breaker
Jeanne Chaos Drive is superior to her Balance Breaker