Heroic spirit form key, Nasuverse

[Regidian]

Imo this statement sounds more like they would have trouble summoning them because of the Throne not the servant/being itself. Also if thi statement was really true how could anyone else summon one outside of a grail war? And during a grail war who is really the one summoning them the grail, or the person attempting the summons? We get a statement of the grail summoning them, but we see people in the act of summoning them using some catalyst. Also, this statement is talking about Heroic Spirits as in the Servants not the main body in the throne.

Their are no mention of the throne in the text so how you even conclude to that? And they should have not be called the strongest being if that was the case...

Nobody have ever summoned a heroic spirit what you even tell?

During a grail war, it's the holy grail that take the emmanation from the throne of heroes create the vessel. Master are just here to be the anchor of servant, because otherwise the world erase them.

And this statement litteraly talk about Heroic spirit, where do you even get that it's for servant? Servant are litteraly familiar made to be contracted by human.

False. In Fate/Extella there is a statements that explicitly states that the Mooncell literally reaches into the Throne.

Send me the statement pls. Because Gilgamesh is from the throke of heroes he rekt Moon cell, and same for arturia. All we know about mooncell it's that he have lake his own imitation of throne of heroes based on what he have observed and recorded.


Ok the statement you send (which is one of my screen to justify their level) litteraly talk about accessing a higher plane than the moon cell, using all the power of regalia(authority and power of moon cell) and power of sword Mars to do it. Nero was litteraly trying to do thay to fight Velber star who is >moon cell

To explain what I am in disagreement with;

The tiering justification. Simply existing there shouldn't warrant a tier. Do I believe it can warrant a Key? yes, it can probably have a key. I simply disagree with the justification for the tiering.

The "main body" should be equal to their living self since the throne should have replicated a perfect or near perfect copy of them. though i thought there was a statement on this in F/SN.

The first scan i have send litteraly tell that they have ascended as higher dimmensionnal being. Many living servant litteraly don't exist. Nursery rhymes is a concept what you tier would she have get from your thing?. She don't have living self.
And many other heroic spirit have weak living self which would make them true body weaker than their own avatar which we know that it's false since servant are litteraly tel to be cheap, multi convinient familiar (by hans himself who is only a human when he was alive) + the world would not hahe any problems to summon if this was the case. And arturia + many servant would not be that strong if her heroic spirit was equal to her living self. And like i tell Nero talked the of summoning a true heroic spirit (as a example) when she was trying to summon an higher dimmensionnal being to fight Velber star

I don't understand why existing shouldn't give a tier if they have enough statzment and scaling. Akasha existing make him 1-A bevause his nature as a being.

And if you want a statement about manipulating higher dimension. Heroic spirit Jeanne was able to forcing her way to the outside of Throne of heroes.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Send me the statement pls. Because Gilgamesh is from the throke of heroes he rekt Moon cell, and same for arturia. All we know about mooncell it's that he have lake his own imitation of throne of heroes based on what he have observed and recorded.

This is all i have time for righ tnow due to irl stuff





"Saber begins her story, a bedtime story of sorts. Her voice has a soothing resonance to it. When she calls herself "the finest instrument ever forged", she's not just boasting. Her voice is like a song, a symphony of words. Saber tells me all about the Moon's Holy Grail War. About the Wizards of the cyber world, invited to the Moon by providence, who devoted themselves to reaching the top through a battle to the death. The summoned Heroic Spirits. The proof of the ultimate Servant. The days of conflict when we ascended seven layers to the core of the Moon, the Prison of SE.RA.PH. The duels so cruelly repeated by the 128 Masters who gathered on the Moon were set up in the form of a tournament. With every battle, half of the Masters disappeared, losing their lives in the process. The Masters were not the only ones who faced death. The Servants, summoned with the power of the Moon Cell to serve as the Wizards' greatest weapons, would die as well. As each Master's life was extinguished, so too would their Servants disappear, returning in death to the Throne of Heroes. In the end, the toll was 125 people."

Fate/extella Part #45 - Golden Poem - Change

Let's Play Fate/extella by Sylphid - Part 45: Golden Poem - Change

lparchive.org

"And then, the Servants who lent Altera their power... The Top Servants who stayed by her side for various reasons even though the Moon Cell summoned them to fight her... We know the King of Conquerors fell in battle, but we haven't seen any sign of the other two. Did they disappear? Did they leave SE.RA.PH and return to the Throne of Heroes? No one seems to know for sure. In my personal opinion, it's hard to think that the Golden Heroic Spirit would have given up and left so easily. I can easily see him being dragged in to some unbelievable plot in some unbelievable place, gut-laughing the whole time."

Fate/extella Part #96 - Extella

Let's Play Fate/extella by Sylphid - Part 96: Extella

lparchive.org

 

[Regidian]

This is all i have time for righ tnow due to irl stuff

Nero litteraly tell that she will use all the power of regalia(authority and power of moon cell) to access a higher plane of them. And she use the summoning of a heroic spirit as a example.

I mean you know that she do that to fight Velber star the thing that is superior to Moon cell?


"As each Master's life was extinguished, so too would their Servants disappear, returning in death to the Throne of Heroes. In the end, the toll was 125 people.""

This is what happen for every defeated servant they just return in the heroic spirit so nothing to do with moon cell

And then, the Servants who lent Altera their power... The Top Servants who stayed by her side for various reasons even though the Moon Cell summoned them to fight her... We know the King of Conquerors fell in battle, but we haven't seen any sign of the other two. Did they disappear? Did they leave SE.RA.PH and return to the Throne of Heroes?

And here the Moon cell is just tell to have summoned them as a servant.

Even the holy grail can access the throne to summon servant as they just ask for emanation of true heroic spirit but they can't summon the true body of heroic spirit.

"Even the Holy Grail lacks the power to summon a true Heroic Spirit, so the process is facilitated by summoning them into one of seven vessels prepared beforehand.The Greater Grail makes a copy using information from the "main body" of the Heroic Spirit, an "emanation", that returns to them as information, in the form of a soul, upon the death of the Servant. Disconnected from the "main body", they are able to know of the actions of the Servant through records, as if reading a book."

 

[Regidian]

Anyways have to go sleep

 

[Hasty12345]

9D existence looks fine, but if Jeanne is the only character who has a feat of affecting the throne, then I think only she should get 9D ap, the rest could probably get a "possibly" of "likely higher" rating IMO.

 

[Regidian]

9D existence looks fine, but if Jeanne is the only character who has a feat of affecting the throne, then I think only she should get 9D ap, the rest could probably get a "possibly" of "likely higher" rating IMO.

But she not even the strongest heroic spirit would be weird, tho i think we could do a rating of


unknow likely 9D?

 

[Hasty12345]

But she not even the strongest heroic spirit would be weird, tho i think we could do a rating of


unknow likely 9D?

That sounds better than my suggestions yeah

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

In the end it's basically the same that I said, Unknown, at least 1-C.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I think it is really meaningless to put them at Unknown tho; otherwise we would put every Umineko characters, Chtulhu Mythos gods and coe who didn't destroy a structure as Unknown despite the nature of their existence.

It seems like a bad double standard on this one.

 

[Hasty12345]

I think it is really meaningless to put them at Unknown tho; otherwise we would put every Umineko characters, Chtulhu Mythos gods and coe who didn't destroy a structure as Unknown despite the nature of their existence.

It seems like a bad double standard on this one.

I don't think it's exactly a 1-1 as we see characters like bern and Lambda create big bangs and crunches on the scale of the City of Books which should count as "significantly affecting.... etc etc". I can't speak to the other verses, but if you think there's enough evidence to warrant 9D ap to all the heroic spirits based on Jeanne and the nature of their existence, then I'll withdraw my complaints and trust your judgement.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I think it is really meaningless to put them at Unknown tho; otherwise we would put every Umineko characters, Chtulhu Mythos gods and coe who didn't destroy a structure as Unknown despite the nature of their existence.

It seems like a bad double standard on this one.

The reasons as to way I think that if the key/page is made it should be Unknown is because there are various uncertainties about them, I don't doubt they are above the current dimensionality of the god tiers, but we don't know exactly their dimensionality, just that it's above the rest, this is way I think the safest thing is say Unknown, at least 1-C.

 

[QuasiYuri]

The reasons as to way I think that if the key/page is made it should be Unknown is because there are various uncertainties about them, I don't doubt they are above the current dimensionality of the god tiers, but we don't know exactly their dimensionality, just that it's above the rest, this is way I think the safest thing is say Unknown, at least 1-C.

I mean, "at least Low 1-C" alone would do the job regarding it.
I always found weird to have Unknown if you can put a "at least".

 

[TypeOU]

9D existence looks fine, but if Jeanne is the only character who has a feat of affecting the throne, then I think only she should get 9D ap, the rest could probably get a "possibly" of "likely higher" rating IMO.

she didn't affect the throne, she basically used the infinite time concept of the throne to "eventually" leave it

 

[Hasty12345]

she didn't affect the throne, she basically used the infinite time concept of the throne to "eventually" leave it

As I said, I'm deferring my judgement to Yuri, I trust him.

 

[LehenDuo]

Nero litteraly tell that she will use all the power of regalia(authority and power of moon cell) to access a higher plane of them. And she use the summoning of a heroic spirit as a example.

I mean you know that she do that to fight Velber star the thing that is superior to Moon cell?


"As each Master's life was extinguished, so too would their Servants disappear, returning in death to the Throne of Heroes. In the end, the toll was 125 people.""

This is what happen for every defeated servant they just return in the heroic spirit so nothing to do with moon cell

And then, the Servants who lent Altera their power... The Top Servants who stayed by her side for various reasons even though the Moon Cell summoned them to fight her... We know the King of Conquerors fell in battle, but we haven't seen any sign of the other two. Did they disappear? Did they leave SE.RA.PH and return to the Throne of Heroes?

And here the Moon cell is just tell to have summoned them as a servant.

Even the holy grail can access the throne to summon servant as they just ask for emanation of true heroic spirit but they can't summon the true body of heroic spirit.

"Even the Holy Grail lacks the power to summon a true Heroic Spirit, so the process is facilitated by summoning them into one of seven vessels prepared beforehand.The Greater Grail makes a copy using information from the "main body" of the Heroic Spirit, an "emanation", that returns to them as information, in the form of a soul, upon the death of the Servant. Disconnected from the "main body", they are able to know of the actions of the Servant through records, as if reading a book."

Let me get one thing clear here - You do understand even the World has to put the Heroic Spirit in a Vessel? It's called Ritual: Heroic Spirit Summon, but it still summon Grand Servants
Or to say it in simpler terms - you need a physical, material body for the soul, you need a form to put the raw power/information that are Heroic Spirits.
It doesn't matter how powerful of a mental body you are, you won't interact with the physical without a body/something physical as link.
The World isn't doing Third Magic and materializing souls themselves.

 

[Regidian]

Let me get one thing clear here - You do understand even the World has to put the Heroic Spirit in a Vessel? It's called Ritual: Heroic Spirit Summon, but it still summon Grand Servants
Or to say it in simpler terms - you need a physical, material body for the soul, you need a form to put the raw power/information that are Heroic Spirits.
It doesn't matter how powerful of a mental body you are, you won't interact with the physical without a body/something physical as link.
The World can't do Third Magic and materialize souls themselves.

Yeah i know she still summon Heroic spirit using a Vessel with class/saint graph for grand servant.

I mean i never tell they can interact directly with the material world (even Jeanne was to go in reverside of the world able to touch Sieg in the end of Apo, and ghost are mental body and can affect the material world but they are weird).

Yeah for the third magic but i don't think it change something in their tier. It's just mean that they can't affect directly the material world in their verse (the third magic is a example of these could have the possibility of being able to come in material wirld if someone was able to do that on them) Or you just wanted to precise that?


We can add in the weakness part that they need a physical anchor to affect the material world (even if jeanne was able to touch sieg dragon without it)

 

[LehenDuo]

Or you just wanted to precise that?

I just can't see the utility of doing it, if anything
Do HS even have the necessary structures to ''will something'' for them to be able to ''do''?
Or your proposal is for the ''worldbuilding''/lore-type of thing, not to actually use in battles?

 

[Regidian]

I just can't see the utility of doing it, if anything
Do HS even have the necessary structures to ''will something'' for them to be able to ''do''?
Or your proposal is for the ''worldbuilding''/lore-type of thing, not to actually use in battles?

They have we have multiple servant material profile that mention Heroic spirit doing something in throne of heroes, and even talking to the other. And in Apo Jeanne heroic spirit was trying to leave Throne of heroes using all te she have in disposition. It's mean that they have they have the structure and the will to do thing.

More world building type, it's to recense their existence if you want as even if they not appear by themself their existance is a big part of the lore and they're exist. In term of vsb i mean the only they could serve is "meh big tier" so not really best thing

 

[Regidian]

Yeah.



The point is to make the page for Heroic spirit true body(the much easier thing would be to do a civilization page).

All thing i tell here are tell in the OP and in the debate i had with TypeOU, can resend them if needed

The heroic spirit are heroes who ascended in a higher plane of existance after their death(throne of heroes) their are multiple time called higher dimensionnal being.


Grand servant(fgo) and Top servant(fate extella) are part of their avatar made from their emanations, having many limitation in power, skill and be limited to one class compared to the true body. (Grand servant are low 1-C to 1-C here, same for arturia top servant).

Heroic spirit are classified as the strongest being that exist, to the point that even the 5 magician (user of true magie, zeltrech who ks user of second magi is low 1-C to 1-C here too), would never be able to make a contract with them. Their existance is beyond any magi and Magecraft.

Only the World is capable of summoning them and even that it's considered to be a miraculous occurence, the holy grail too is not strong enough to summon the main body of a true heroic spirit.

The throne of heroes being a plane of existance higher above Moon cell were Moon cell is only capable of doing an imitation of what he do.

Nero mentionning the possibility of summoning a heroic spirit when she use regalia (authority and power of moon cell), sword of mars to create a chanel to higher plane (she was already low 1-C/1-C here) to summon someone. She just decided to summon a god after.

All of this should mean that heroic spirit are at least above grand and character like gilga or artutia from extra serie because their are only avatar of them with many limitation if not a dimmension above like throne of heroes bevause their are resident of this dimmmension.

Conclusion :

Heroic spirit as a whole should be 7D to 9D. As they exist in the higher plane of existance, are considered as higher dimmension being from their avatar even the grand servant and top servant and that nor the holy grail, nor the true magic user can summon them + called the most powerful being, and that only the world could be able to summon them. And existing in a higher plane than moon cell.

Heroic spirit will get resistance to all magecraft.

Should get acausality type 4 (their are separated from the concept of time not getting affected by any change in causality or by the system of the world)

Should get HDE


And they are the composite version of their different servant version as their not limited in their skill/class (except if a servant is specifically tell to be registered in the throne as a different being)

If Ant pass here the summary

 

[Antvasima]

The point is to make the page for Heroic spirit true body(the much easier thing would be to do a civilization page).

All thing i tell here are tell in the OP and in the debate i had with TypeOU, can resend them if needed

The heroic spirit are heroes who ascended in a higher plane of existance after their death(throne of heroes) their are multiple time called higher dimensionnal being.

Grand servant(fgo) and Top servant(fate extella) are part of their avatar made from their emanations, having many limitation in power, skill and be limited to one class compared to the true body. (Grand servant are low 1-C to 1-C here, same for arturia top servant).

Heroic spirit are classified as the strongest being that exist, to the point that even the 5 magician (user of true magie, zeltrech who ks user of second magi is low 1-C to 1-C here too), would never be able to make a contract with them. Their existance is beyond any magi and Magecraft.

Only the World is capable of summoning them and even that it's considered to be a miraculous occurence, the holy grail too is not strong enough to summon the main body of a true heroic spirit.

The throne of heroes being a plane of existance higher above Moon cell were Moon cell is only capable of doing an imitation of what he do.

Nero mentionning the possibility of summoning a heroic spirit when she use regalia (authority and power of moon cell), sword of mars to create a chanel to higher plane (she was already low 1-C/1-C here) to summon someone. She just decided to summon a god after.

All of this should mean that heroic spirit are at least above grand and character like gilga or artutia from extra serie because their are only avatar of them with many limitation if not a dimmension above like throne of heroes bevause their are resident of this dimmmension.

Conclusion :

Heroic spirit as a whole should be 7D to 9D. As they exist in the higher plane of existance, are considered as higher dimmension being from their avatar even the grand servant and top servant and that nor the holy grail, nor the true magic user can summon them + called the most powerful being, and that only the world could be able to summon them. And existing in a higher plane than moon cell.

Heroic spirit will get resistance to all magecraft.

Should get acausality type 4 (their are separated from the concept of time not getting affected by any change in causality or by the system of the world)

Should get HDE

And they are the composite version of their different servant version as their not limited in their skill/class (except if a servant is specifically tell to be registered in the throne as a different being)

@SomebodyData @Dragonmasterxyz @Celestial_Pegasus @Soldier_Blue @Wokistan @Elizhaa @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Starter_Pack @Ogbunabali

Would any of you be willing to help out with evaluating this please?

 

[Strife304]

If the op is suggesting that their is a page consolidating Heroic Soirits, I am in agreement.

I agree with the op, I just think it's excessive to create that many keys for that many characters. Some of which, as referenced earlier, are already composited and have their own individual identity despite being the sum of a greater whole.

 

[Antvasima]

The point is to make the page for Heroic spirit true body(the much easier thing would be to do a civilization page).

All thing i tell here are tell in the OP and in the debate i had with TypeOU, can resend them if needed

The heroic spirit are heroes who ascended in a higher plane of existance after their death(throne of heroes) their are multiple time called higher dimensionnal being.

Grand servant(fgo) and Top servant(fate extella) are part of their avatar made from their emanations, having many limitation in power, skill and be limited to one class compared to the true body. (Grand servant are low 1-C to 1-C here, same for arturia top servant).

Heroic spirit are classified as the strongest being that exist, to the point that even the 5 magician (user of true magie, zeltrech who ks user of second magi is low 1-C to 1-C here too), would never be able to make a contract with them. Their existance is beyond any magi and Magecraft.

Only the World is capable of summoning them and even that it's considered to be a miraculous occurence, the holy grail too is not strong enough to summon the main body of a true heroic spirit.

The throne of heroes being a plane of existance higher above Moon cell were Moon cell is only capable of doing an imitation of what he do.

Nero mentionning the possibility of summoning a heroic spirit when she use regalia (authority and power of moon cell), sword of mars to create a chanel to higher plane (she was already low 1-C/1-C here) to summon someone. She just decided to summon a god after.

All of this should mean that heroic spirit are at least above grand and character like gilga or artutia from extra serie because their are only avatar of them with many limitation if not a dimmension above like throne of heroes bevause their are resident of this dimmmension.

Conclusion :

Heroic spirit as a whole should be 7D to 9D. As they exist in the higher plane of existance, are considered as higher dimmension being from their avatar even the grand servant and top servant and that nor the holy grail, nor the true magic user can summon them + called the most powerful being, and that only the world could be able to summon them. And existing in a higher plane than moon cell.

Heroic spirit will get resistance to all magecraft.

Should get acausality type 4 (their are separated from the concept of time not getting affected by any change in causality or by the system of the world)

Should get HDE

And they are the composite version of their different servant version as their not limited in their skill/class (except if a servant is specifically tell to be registered in the throne as a different being)

@Ultima_Reality @Agnaa @Ovy7 @QuasiYuri @Ionliosite @First_Witch @Elizhaa @KingPin0422

Would any of you be willing to help out with evaluating this please?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Still agree with it; although they shouldn't be keys but rather their separated profile like classes.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Honestly, this is like a similar case with Kamen Rider, we separated the profiles between the main riders and the legend riders

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that extra profile pages for the full power sources of all emanations are probably fine to apply then. Let's wait a bit longer for more input first though, as a safety precaution.

 

[Regidian]

Okay. I suppose that extra profile pages for the full power sources of all emanations are probably fine to apply then. Let's wait a bit longer for more input first though, as a safety precaution.

Okay

 

[Antvasima]

I would especially appreciate input from @Ultima_Reality an @DontTalkDT regarding if the justifications for the higher-dimensional tiers are acceptable here.

 

[Vietthai96]

well is normal to have a Heroic Spirit key, as each HS have all the abilities of all servants version they can be summon in, for example Cu Chulainn have all of Caster abilities and Lancer abilities

 

[Blueicemonkey]

Have we ever actually seen these True Forms do anything? Like I know they exist but I can’t remember a time when one of them actually werent just chilling in the throne and actually doing shit.

We never no, like i tell only the World could ever summoning them and it's would be miraculous event. But multiple material and Jeanne in the end of Apo show that they are not just information

We actually have, in Lord El-Melloi II's Case Files. Or at least the cloest we will ever be. Heroic Spirit Iskandar gets summoned and it's in the process of becoming a Divine Spirit. He looks like a lightshow that it's made from all the possible versions of Iskandar at the same time occupying the same place. Including Faker, because she was also part of his legend.

Spoiler: Lord El Melloi Case Files

In a moment everything was rearranged.

The area in Spirit Tomb Albion where Heartless had spread his magic circle was instantly scattered away. We were standing in a red wilderness.

“Eh….?”

I looked at my surroundings that had abruptly changed.

It wasn’t just land.

Before I knew it, numerous soldiers surrounded us.

A terrifying number of silhouettes that stretched to the horizon and perhaps even beyond were clad the armors of various cultures, some holding spears, and some riding horses.

“Ionion Hetaroi <Army of the King>”

I’ve heard of that name. The non-standard Noble Phantasm of the Servant Iskander. Along with a Reality Marble, the tens of thousands of soldiers he shares bonds with are summoned – an army of mystery beyond common sense.

Of course, the soldiers of the army would bless the awakening of the Divine Spirit Iskander.

As expected, at the center of the silhouette soldiers is a remarkable large mounted shadow.

No, among the innumerable silhouettes, only that existence is shining.

Divine Spirit Iskander.

I cannot properly cognize that figure. It’s as if it consisted of different heights and figures – that of Faker, and the giant Iskander I have only heard about. Due to King Arthur’s summoning, my vision is endlessly close to that of a Servant’s. But I can’t look at that. It’s impossible to process all that excess information and my eyes misrecognize it as dazzling light.

“Ahhh, so this is the advent of a Divine Spirit.”

Wouldn't the Heroic Spirit as recorded in the throne be a composite from many timelines that most likely fits multiple classes?

I feel that it would create too many different character than the Servants we see. Demon King Nobunaga is a composite, but is a distinct character from an individual Nobunaga in a specific timeline for example.
With the exception of Jeanne, it would be disproportionate effort to edit ~200 pages to account for ~200 background characters who lack a design. Though I would be fine if true Heroic Spirits were consolidated into a single page.

That would happen, but they would probably be even more unatble than Maou Nobu, who is already noted to be an unstable existence for fusing all Nobus.

A strange-looking form that surpassed even the Demon King of the Sixth Heaven that contains all the fear and reverence of the world that was infused into the past, present and future Nobunagas in its body. Nobunaga made herself reborn into the true demon king that destroys every god and Buddha, the "Demon King of the Three Thousand Great Thousand Heavens". The endpoint of the crimson anti-hero who burns Mystery to ashes, "Demon King Nobunaga".



Since that form did not exist in history, its existence itself is unstable and can only remain manifested for a limited time.

Strange Fake also comments that having all the memories of a full Heroic Spirit would be debilitating due to the contradictions that would arrise from having the memories of multiple instances of the same legend over different records:

There was no concept of past or future in the Throne. Taking in all of a Heroic Spirit’s memories would create contradictions, such as knowing the outcome of a Grail War they were currently participating in. Their memories were therefore supposedly adjusted to match the time and place to which they were summoned.

“It may be a desperate measure on the part of the Throne to curb the world’s contradictions, even if only slightly, but it is a wasted effort in the face of my eyes, which see through all futures. Analogizing the past based on a future of a different phase is a simple matter.”

Mind you, a Divine Spirit is basically the same thing (they also get compared to them as already posted in the thread). They are a bunch of legends/information that are closing a to brainfrying light show than a functional being.

Some descriptions of what Divine Spirits actually look like:

From Strange Fake Vol 3:

"You know God? I don't mean the one the kids at the Holy Church worship; I mean gods from a different mythology."

"...?"

"You see, back when this planet was still overflowing with magical energy — what they call the age of the gods — all sorts of 'concepts' and 'foreign bodies' had relations with humans. They had intelligence, but in the end they were different creatures."

Francesca stared into the distance as she spoke, narrowing her eyes, as if at a fond memory.

"When that happened, as you might expect, there were some mix-ups. Lots of comedies and tragedies came out of them. Well, that's also true when it's just between humans, but... Anyway, when your partner's basically a mass of energy, the mix-ups and misunderstandings are on a whole different level! So, the laughter and the sadness both get scaled up, you see?"

Astraea's interlude

Astraea:

I should apologize to you. It was thanks to your protection that Master was unharmed.

They are utterly defenseless in the dream world asides.

If the vast information of a Divine Spirit managed to forcibly intervene, anything could have happened to their mental state.

I have a question. if this is accepted then what level is appropriate for heroic spirits AP?

From what we know, a true Heroic Spirits is basically a less functional Divine Spirit, since they are too contradictory and the World doesn't recognize an existence that fuses multiple legends of an individual in the same space, like Maou Nobu. But they technically should be in the same realm of existence and their natures are similar.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I would especially appreciate input from @Ultima_Reality an @DontTalkDT regarding if the justifications for the higher-dimensional tiers are acceptable here.

I don't know the series, but from what is said in the OP I don't see anything suggesting superiority above the world, rather than just an existence outside the reach of it and those in it.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I don't know the series, but from what is said in the OP I don't see anything suggesting superiority above the world, rather than just an existence outside the reach of it and those in it.

Those are my thoughts too with the evidence presented here currently.

 

[Regidian]

I don't know the series, but from what is said in the OP I don't see anything suggesting superiority above the world, rather than just an existence outside the reach of it and those in it.

Well some of their emanation are already same tier than the world (and possibly higher because possibly 1-C when the world is low 1-C)

And we have this, Nero telling that she will use all the power of regalia(authority and power of moon cell) to access a higher plane of them. And she use the summoning of a heroic spirit to show how they attain a higher plane. (And the summoning was to beat someone stronger than moon cell, and moon cell is accepted as possibly 8 D when the the world is 6D + nero was already this tier too at that moment)






But if really not enough for you, well we can just make them same tier than the grand and top servant (just way above)

 

[PsychoWarper]

We actually have, in Lord El-Melloi II's Case Files. Or at least the cloest we will ever be. Heroic Spirit Iskandar gets summoned and it's in the process of becoming a Divine Spirit. He looks like a lightshow that it's made from all the possible versions of Iskandar at the same time occupying the same place. Including Faker, because she was also part of his legend.

That would happen, but they would probably be even more unatble than Maou Nobu, who is already noted to be an unstable existence for fusing all Nobus.



Strange Fake also comments that having all the memories of a full Heroic Spirit would be debilitating due to the contradictions that would arrise from having the memories of multiple instances of the same legend over different records:



Mind you, a Divine Spirit is basically the same thing (they also get compared to them as already posted in the thread). They are a bunch of legends/information that are closing a to brainfrying light show than a functional being.

Some descriptions of what Divine Spirits actually look like:

From Strange Fake Vol 3:


Astraea's interlude




From what we know, a true Heroic Spirits is basically a less functional Divine Spirit, since they are too contradictory and the World doesn't recognize an existence that fuses multiple legends of an individual in the same space, like Maou Nobu. But they technically should be in the same realm of existence and their natures are similar.

Ah didnt know that thanks for the info, been meaning to read Strange Fake tbh.

 

[TypeOU]

well is normal to have a Heroic Spirit key, as each HS have all the abilities of all servants version they can be summon in, for example Cu Chulainn have all of Caster abilities and Lancer abilities

bad example because of the whole odin thing but yes

 

[Agnaa]

@Ultima_Reality @Agnaa @Ovy7 @QuasiYuri @Ionliosite @First_Witch @Elizhaa @KingPin0422

Would any of you be willing to help out with evaluating this please?

Sorry but I'm not interested in evaluating this series.

 

[Tyranno223]

How would this affect scaling by the way? From my understanding, gods, and their degraded Divine Spirits rank above Heroic Spirits.

 

[Regidian]

How would this affect scaling by the way? From my understanding, gods, and their degraded Divine Spirits rank above Heroic Spirits.

Their not, some God are even enregistered in the throne of heroes. And many divine spirit are weaker than Servant/Grand servant

 

[Antvasima]

I don't know the series, but from what is said in the OP I don't see anything suggesting superiority above the world, rather than just an existence outside the reach of it and those in it.

Thank you for the input.

Well some of their emanation are already same tier than the world (and possibly higher because possibly 1-C when the world is low 1-C)

And we have this, Nero telling that she will use all the power of regalia(authority and power of moon cell) to access a higher plane of them. And she use the summoning of a heroic spirit to show how they attain a higher plane. (And the summoning was to beat someone stronger than moon cell, and moon cell is accepted as possibly 8 D when the the world is 6D + nero was already this tier too at that moment)






But if really not enough for you, well we can just make them same tier than the grand and top servant (just way above)

@DontTalkDT

What do you think about this?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Well some of their emanation are already same tier than the world (and possibly higher because possibly 1-C when the world is low 1-C)

You mean them in particular vessels? Do we have any word that they are as strong or stronger in the throne than they are in their vessels?

And we have this, Nero telling that she will use all the power of regalia(authority and power of moon cell) to access a higher plane of them. And she use the summoning of a heroic spirit to show how they attain a higher plane. (And the summoning was to beat someone stronger than moon cell, and moon cell is accepted as possibly 8 D when the the world is 6D + nero was already this tier too at that moment)






But if really not enough for you, well we can just make them same tier than the grand and top servant (just way above)

I don't think 'higher plane', without further context, suffices to prove an infinite power difference. It doesn't even say higher relative to what and existing on a higher plane alone doesn't necessarily scale to its residents.

 

[Tyranno223]

Their not, some God are even enregistered in the throne of heroes. And many divine spirit are weaker than Servant/Grand servant

Weren't those registered in the Throne of Heroes still counted among Divine Spirits not Heroic ones? But that's offtopic I guess.

How would characters like Sefar, the Lostbelt Olympians or Arjuna Alter be affected then.