Heroic spirit form key, Nasuverse

[Regidian]

So like the title say it's a CRT an attempt to create the heroic sprit key for all the servant register in throne of heroes.

Like we know Heroic spirit are Heroes who have left behind great feats in legends after death which lead them to ascend as Heroic spirit in an higher plane of existence (Throne of heroes). The Throne of heroes is a place existing outside of both the World and the time axis too.

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Being like Grand Servant or Arturia/Gilgamesh of Extella serie are still just avatar of Heroic spirit, they just have better vessel compared to the normal one (grand servant vessel for fgo and better cyber frame for extella)

• "While Servants are a degraded form of the Grand Servant ritual, the difference between Grand Servants and Servants is rank of the vessel and authority rather than their comparative ranks as Heroic Spirits." London: The Death World in the City of Demonic Fog - Section 13

We know too that that Heroic spirit classified as the strongest being that exist, as the point that even the 5 magicians (user of true magi) can't summon them because their own intrisec nature are beyond magi and magecraft. (which mean they are even beyond Avalon who is tell to be a true magi by himself)

• "Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with. Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft. Magi can perform rituals to borrow their power to mimic them, but cannot summon actual Heroic Spirits themselves."

• "An “absolute defence” that can even repel the assault of True Magic, it is a True Magic in itself." Fate Complete Material III: World material - Theory of Magic - Magecraft: Effects on the Level of True Magic, p.049

So for the stat they should be 1 dimmension higher than grand servant/extra servant/moon cell are so 7D (being of a higher plane of existance than Avalon and being above True magic) possibly 9D (being of higher plane than the Moon Cell which contain and control 8 dimmension).

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For the ability, Heroic spirit are not limited in skill and class like the servant they should be composite version of what we know about them (except if a servant is specified tell to be register in the throne of heroes as a different version than the other self). Most of them should have resistance of autority as their are all High divinity being and because the Mythical Mystic code who allow to resist authority of BB is a power coming from them.

• "The vessels, classes, act as their temporary name and method of existing. Acting like a "passport to the present", the vessel prepares them for their role as a familiar in advance, allows them to take on that role to help them take form, and brings them forth into the world. Each class identifies only the core skills of the Heroic Spirit because replication of all their abilities is impossible.

• Counter Guardian is a broad classification of Heroic Spirits made up of heroes who are not worshipped, utilized as a mindless Counter Force. Other Heroic Spirits have a high Divinity and act as existences closer to the planet than humanity.

• By entering the servant's virtual mind/body to access the Heroic spirit core directly, it is possible for the master to reach the heroic spirit's root that the Moon Cell had sealed away, and release the Mythological Mystic Code.

If people ask, we know that heroic spirit exist in Throne of heroes, their not just information recorded.

• -It seems like her cooking skills became famous among Divine Spirits, and before long, she started holding periodic cooking classes in the Throne of Heroes in response to the demands of the Japanese Heroic Spirits." From the Material of Enma.

Agree: QuasiYuri, Tam0n3m, KingofHeroes


Disagree: TypeOU


Neutral: Expectro2000xxx (if a key is made should be unknow, at least 1-C)

 

[QuasiYuri]

Looks good.

 

[Tam0n3n]

I agree with everything

 

[Mageman460]

How does them being above Grand Servants make them 1 dimension higher? Also, not every Servant is a Heroic Spirit and as such wouldn't get this upgrade. For example Yan Qing and Hessian Lobo. Even not counting servants who wouldn't have a Heroic Spirit key, this is still going to be a lot of work. Regardless, I agree that most servants should have a Heroic Spirit key.

If Heroic Spirits are a dimension above Grand Servants, then Beasts and Types would effectively be a non threat to Alaya wouldn't they? Instead Alaya summons the servants as Grand Servants. If anything Heroic Spirits should be at least equal to Grand Servants. But again can not stress it enough that not every servant has a Heroic Spirit.

 

[Regidian]

How does them being above Grand Servants make them 1 dimension higher? Also, not every Servant is a Heroic Spirit and as such wouldn't get this upgrade. For example Yan Qing and Hessian Lobo. Even not counting servants who wouldn't have a Heroic Spirit key, this is still going to be a lot of work. Regardless, I agree that most servants should have a Heroic Spirit key.

If Heroic Spirits are a dimension above Grand Servants, then Beasts and Types would effectively be a non threat to Alaya wouldn't they? Instead Alaya summons the servants as Grand Servants. If anything Heroic Spirits should be at least equal to Grand Servants. But again can not stress it enough that not every servant has a Heroic Spirit.

it's not just being above grand servant that make them that and yeah only heroic spirit get this key i don't tell all servant will have it,(my first phrase is all servant registeredin throne of heroes will get in , not all servant)


Alaya don't need to summon heroic spirit if grand servant are enough to (and we don't even know if the World can take the existence of a real heroic spirit main body) and as most of real Heroic spirit have become high divinity being because faith, it's tell she don't particulary want to summon them.

Other Heroic Spirits have a high Divinity and act as existences closer to the planet than humanity, so they are able to avoid being drafted by the Counter Force.

 

[Paul_Frank]

It's odd that them being 7/9d completely puts them above everything in the entire series, save for Root stuff. This completely puts them above Types, above Lostbelt Kings and other gods, etc, which doesn't seem right from a narrative standpoint especially considering these characters have been noted to be the strongest things.

A possible reason for this contradiction is exactly why I don't like this key. A full Heroic Spirit literally can not exist in the series. If we go with the idea that they're above the Mooncell and World, it explains why they're never summoned and instead Grands, and why BB just puts the data into containers rather than yoinking Heroic Spirits whole, etc, but that's the issue, that means they can never be summoned, at all, they only exist in the throne itself and never are able to do combat themselves, or be anywhere but there. This would mean we're indexing a key for an impossibility in the verse.

The only time, in the 17 years this series has gone on, where this rule is possibly broken, that someone can even argue that a Heroic Spirit existing outside of the throne has happened or is possible, is with Jeanne going to the reverse side, and notably struggling to reach the thing she'd be infinitely above if that was the case, which makes no sense given her apparent power if she was a Heroic Spirit at the time.

Aside from this gripe, and the issue of them being above everything else in the series just through statements about certain beings' powers, and the narrative of the series, not entirely making sense, and the fact that this would just be composting every single version of a given servant which would bloat the file to all hell, the stuff in the op logically makes sense.

 

[Nepuko]

adjusts glasses ...so you guys are trying to make a composite version for every Servant?

(and we don't even know if the World can take the existence of a real heroic spirit main body) and as most of real Heroic spirit have become high divinity being because faith, it's tell she don't particulary want to summon them.

As far as I know, the World is literally the only thing with the Authority to summon the real body of a Heroic Spirit.

This is mentioned in the World Material.

 

[Regidian]

It's odd that them being 7/9d completely puts them above everything in the entire series, save for Root stuff. This completely puts them above Types, above Lostbelt Kings and other gods, etc, which doesn't seem right from a narrative standpoint especially considering these characters have been noted to be the strongest things.

A possible reason for this contradiction is exactly why I don't like this key. A full Heroic Spirit literally can not exist in the series. If we go with the idea that they're above the Mooncell and World, it explains why they're never summoned and instead Grands, and why BB just puts the data into containers rather than yoinking Heroic Spirits whole, etc, but that's the issue, that means they can never be summoned, at all, they only exist in the throne itself and never are able to do combat themselves, or be anywhere but there. This would mean we're indexing a key for an impossibility in the verse.

The only time, in the 17 years this series has gone on, where this rule is possibly broken, that someone can even argue that a Heroic Spirit existing outside of the throne has happened or is possible, is with Jeanne going to the reverse side, and notably struggling to reach the thing she'd be infinitely above if that was the case, which makes no sense given her apparent power if she was a Heroic Spirit at the time.

Aside from this gripe, and the issue of them being above everything else in the series just through statements about certain beings' powers, and the narrative of the series, not entirely making sense, and the fact that this would just be composting every single version of a given servant which would bloat the file to all hell, the stuff in the op logically makes sense.

well so maybe not making a key for each of them but just a page for Heroic spirit as a whole (like we do for race) ? with explication of what heroic spirit have. (like composite skill of their servant version etc) and never god/type/lb were tell to be technically the strongest, e i mean Kiara who reached an existence of buddha(so one of top god) and being renforced by Hans Np was tell to be only be "close" to True demon existence etc, we already know the existence of possible being above them. (+ them being beyond true magi mean they are beyond the six sister and zeltrech who are able to defeat Type)

in the first fate their was tell to be above pratically everything. For the God we have mention of God being dead before the reduction in divine spirit possibly be recorded in throne of heroes too.

• Gods that have died before reduction into Divine Spirits could presumably be recorded into the Throne of heroes.

For Jeanne she got problem to leave Throne of heroes not to go in reverse side, if i recall correctly.

i mean in the two case it leave a problem if grand and heroic spirit are same level of existance, why just not summon the full heroic spirit, same for moon cell they have not limiation in skill or class so would have been way better.

Well we can make them 6/8D too if needed (Weird having same tier than some of your avatar) but then they will need resistance to the entierly of magecraft and Magi as noted in the OP that their are beyond them in nature

 

[Regidian]

adjusts glasses ...so you guys are trying to make a composite version for every Servant?



As far as I know, the World is literally the only thing with the Authority to summon the real body of a Heroic Spirit.

This is mentioned in the World Material.

oh yeah forgot

 

[TypeOU]

Gonna answer tomorrow (well it's past modnight where I live so today technically). I disagree with a lot of your points tho

 

[Regidian]

Gonna answer tomorrow (well it's past modnight where I live so today technically). I disagree with a lot of your points tho

Tomorrow anni so not sure if i will answer directly lol

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

can heroic spirits get type 4 acausality and AE (don't know which type) ?

they have been separated from the Concept of time, it can also be interpreted that they no longer use the normal causality system


Heroic spirits are just Records or results of human history and servants are their form of existence in reality


Heroic spirit is still "Information" produced on earth


and some of them are in the form of Concepts

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I have conflicted thoughts with this but I'm gonna just say that if indeed is made a key for them then it should be: Unknown, at least 1-C.

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

And yeah, i agree with OP

 

[TypeOU]

Being like Grand Servant or Arturia/Gilgamesh of Extella serie are still just avatar of Heroic spirit, they just have better vessel compared to the normal one (grand servant vessel for fgo and better cyber frame for extella)

just because they're not the real deal doesn't necessarily make them weaker, to begin with, a lot of them were actually buffed compared to history, whether they got new abilities or a buff in stats, nothing imply that the servants at the throne are necessarily stronger when the manifestation is what defines their abilities

• "Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with. Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft. Magi can perform rituals to borrow their power to mimic them, but cannot summon actual Heroic Spirits themselves."

"Differing from the normal definition of familiars that can be likened to minor mascots unable to be stronger than their masters, Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with. Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft."

they aren't stronger, it's just that summoning them isn't part of the magicians' skillsets. Magecraft can't summon them because of their nature and it's not like there's a true magic related to summoning

(which mean they are even beyond Avalon who is tell to be a true magi by himself)

except that there is no magician for avalon. It's the 5 magicians they were talking about

For the ability, Heroic spirit are not limited in skill and class like the servant they should be composite version of what we know about them (except if a servant is specified tell to be register in the throne of heroes as a different version than the other self).

agreed

Most of them should have resistance of autority as their are all High divinity being and because the Mythical Mystic code who allow to resist authority of BB is a power coming from them.

disagree. 1. they're clearly not talking about the same divinity gods have since they're compared on that point to fairies, who don't have it. as for them having the mystic code, I'm mitigated I guess? the story can be interpreted either way but it seems to me that it's a power sealed in everyone, " It is something all human beings hold within them."

If people ask, we know that heroic spirit exist in Throne of heroes, their not just information recorded.

I mean it's kinda inconsistent, sometimes it's described as "doing nothing", sometimes they interact with each other and sometimes they are just data, but yeah, they exist most of the time

 

[Regidian]

just because they're not the real deal doesn't necessarily make them weaker, to begin with, a lot of them were actually buffed compared to history, whether they got new abilities or a buff in stats, nothing imply that the servants at the throne are necessarily stronger when the manifestation is what defines their abilities



"Differing from the normal definition of familiars that can be likened to minor mascots unable to be stronger than their masters, Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with. Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft."

they aren't stronger, it's just that summoning them isn't part of the magicians' skillsets. Magecraft can't summon them because of their nature and it's not like there's a true magic related to summoning


except that there is no magician for avalon. It's the 5 magicians they were talking about


agreed

disagree. 1. they're clearly not talking about the same divinity gods have since they're compared on that point to fairies, who don't have it. as for them having the mystic code, I'm mitigated I guess? the story can be interpreted either way but it seems to me that it's a power sealed in everyone, " It is something all human beings hold within them."


I mean it's kinda inconsistent, sometimes it's described as "doing nothing", sometimes they interact with each other and sometimes they are just data, but yeah, they exist most of the time

Heroic spirit=/=real life them so don't understand why you talk about their history self. Heroic spirit are the dead that have ascend in a higher plane of existance. And are tell that human are litteraly unable to invok them because their are to powerful for it. and we have example of King of conqueror in fate extella where he tell that he got some problem with his vessel otherwise he would be able to fight 1v1 with Extra Gilgamesh.

The manifestation is litteraly the thing that limit them in one class and some skill like i already show in OP which is not the case on throne of heroes, + the first scan litteraly tell that they have ascend in higher plane of existance.


It's never stated that it's because magic have no relation with summoning (which is not even the case as the summoning of fuyuki use the third true magic), and the text you send litteraly tell it's not because it's hard to process the summon but because their intrisect nature are beyond what they can do.

"Magi can perform rituals to borrow their power to mimic them, but cannot summon actual Heroic Spirits themselves."


The Great Grail uses several parts of Heaven's Feel in an attempt to recreate it in its entirety. Using an incomplete version, it takes a raw soul, raw energy made from spiritual particles, and copies information of Heroic Spirits in order to generate Servants.


"Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft."


It's tell that their are above all Magic and magecraft. Avalon is a true magic meaning they will be above it by logic.


It exist only one definition of divinity and they got it because of faith, so the same than god have so..... (And this version of fairy is already recton with what we know about them ln lb6)

 

[TypeOU]

Heroic spirit=/=real life them so don't understand why you talk about their history self. Heroic spirit are the dead that have ascend in a higher plane of existance. And are tell that human are litteraly unable to invok them because their are to powerful for it. and we have example of King of conqueror in fate extella where he tell that he got some problem with his vessel otherwise he would be able to fight 1v1 with Extra Gilgamesh.

again, the vessel is essential, and there's no mention of the real deal at the throne being necessarily stronger than the one fueled by the saint graph. And the quote you gave litterally says that no humans can summon them, not because they're too strong, but because they aren't magecraft

The manifestation is litteraly the thing that limit them in one class and some skill like i already show in OP which is not the case on throne of heroes, + the first scan litteraly tell that they have ascend in higher plane of existance.

I'm not talking about having all of the abilities, I'm talking about the stats. and 4d is still far from 6D to 9D

It's never stated that it's because magic have no relation with summoning (which is not even the case as the summoning of fuyuki use the third true magic), and the text you send litteraly tell it's not because it's hard to process the summon but because their intrisect nature are beyond what they can do.

"Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft."
it litterally said that it's not because they're superior, so beyond here means not part of.
the summoning doesn't use the third true magic, their bodies are formed via an application of the third true magic

The Great Grail uses several parts of Heaven's Feel in an attempt to recreate it in its entirety. Using an incomplete version, it takes a raw soul, raw energy made from spiritual particles, and copies information of Heroic Spirits in order to generate Servants.

yes, heaven's feel generate the body, the greater grail takes the data from the throne thanks to its connection

"Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft."


It's tell that their are above all Magic and magecraft. Avalon is a true magic meaning they will be above it by logic.

really? Because I don't see the word magic here.

It exist only one definition of divinity and they got it because of faith, so the same than god have so..... (And this version of fairy is already recton with what we know about them ln lb6)

no, the definition of divinity is "how close one is to a divine spirit". Fairies aren't gods, so by definition, they can't have the same divinity gods have. If their divinity is truly defined as "the belief of peoples", it has nothing to do with authorities. An authority is resisted by another authority, not by divinity

 

[Regidian]

again, the vessel is essential, and there's no mention of the real deal at the throne being necessarily stronger than the one fueled by the saint graph. And the quote you gave litterally says that no humans can summon them, not because they're too strong, but because they aren't magecraft

I'm not talking about having all of the abilities, I'm talking about the stats. and 4d is still far from 6D to 9D

"Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft."
it litterally said that it's not because they're superior, so beyond here means not part of.
the summoning doesn't use the third true magic, their bodies are formed via an application of the third true magic

yes, heaven's feel generate the body, the greater grail takes the data from the throne thanks to its connection

really? Because I don't see the word magic here.

no, the definition of divinity is "how close one is to a divine spirit". Fairies aren't gods, so by definition, they can't have the same divinity gods have. If their divinity is truly defined as "the belief of peoples", it has nothing to do with authorities. An authority is resisted by another authority, not by divinity

The vessel is not essential, Jeanne was able to outside of Throne of heroes by herself. + One more time, my first scan litteraly tell that they have ascend in a higher plane of existance.

They have mention of them being stronger... In original Novel their are called higher being of existance.

+ Have this quote when they say the only difference between Grand servant and normal servant is that grand servant have more suitable Vessel for the power of heroic spirit

And we have this too.

Even the Holy Grail lacks the power to summon a true Heroic Spirit, so the process is facilitated by summoning them into one of seven vessels prepared beforehand.


And where it's tell that it's because their aren't magecraft? If that was the case they couldn't even summon the normal servant seriously....

Being called higher plane of existance is not mean to be 4D..... I seriously don't understand your reasoning.


Their are tell to be stronger, how it's hard to read "heroic spirit are the most powerful being"

Differing from the normal definition of familiars that can be likened to minor mascots unable to be stronger than their masters, Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with. Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft.

The summoning can little be made only because Justizia body and her third True magic ......


The Holy Grail War itself was devised by Justizia, and she was to become the key of the ritual. The Great Grail was created through forming a large circuit from many multi-layered Crests carved onto a bare rock over fifty meters in diameter. It was covered in multiple layers of circuits, while its many geometric figures turned in place. Justizia stood in the center of the it, and became the key to reenacting the Third Magic.

Magi is the title of user of magecraft and true magic user + the 5 magicians was mention 2 sec before and even a complete third magic can't summon them.



Divinity is how much close of a god, god have divinity and they are above divine spirit. Anyway what was making them having possibly authority resistance is because their divinity is high enough to make them more close to the planet than the human.


Fairy can't have divinity they have they own system of Greate mother/father and A-rei, the comparaison is because heroic spirit are close to fairy race. And except if you tell that God that have become heroic spirit don't have anymore divinity because of that then big lol


In terms of classification, they were not Wrath, but closer to Faeries.
Faeries were materialized forces using the imagination of humans as framework, while Heroic Spirits were woven purely from the ideals of humans through and through.


Q: What kind of role does the World give to Heroic Spirits that aren't Guardians (Counter Guardians)? Also, what do magi call people with high divinity or are closer to the planet?

Heroic Spirits that aren't Guardians are simply treated as traditions that lend power to the later people. Those that became closer to the planet don't mix well with people so they fall into the categories of Divine Spirits and Elementals.


First. God gain power and divinity by faith of people in them. And divinity is what allow to have a stronger authority or weaker + We have already exemple of servant being to resist an authority because their divinity.


Heroic spirit work the same way it's why they are classed as elemental and divine spirit and that they have high divinity and fairy and divine spirit have the two a domain and authority that work the same way.

 

[Regidian]

Anyways anni is here so don't count on me to answer for now lol

 

[TypeOU]

The vessel is not essential, Jeanne was able to outside of Throne of heroes by herself. + One more time, my first scan litteraly tell that they have ascend in a higher plane of existance.

I'm saying that it's an essential variable, like it defines how strong the servant is y'know? And 5D is still just 5D, not 6D like avalon, or higher. There are 8D servants like gilgamesh

They have mention of them being stronger... In original Novel their are called higher being of existance.

if you're an higher dimensional being compared to a 3D being, you're "at least 4D", that's not higher than 6D, nor is it higher than 8D, what's so hard to understand about that?

+ Have this quote when they say the only difference between Grand servant and normal servant is that grand servant have more suitable Vessel for the power of heroic spirit

again, the vessel isn't necessarily weaker than the heroic spirit, there's no such statement. (also where's the quote?)

And we have this too.

Even the Holy Grail lacks the power to summon a true Heroic Spirit, so the process is facilitated by summoning them into one of seven vessels prepared beforehand.

source? because the wikia gives a source which doesn't say that, at all

And where it's tell that it's because their aren't magecraft? If that was the case they couldn't even summon the normal servant seriously....

litterally in the quote you gave, they are beings beyond magecraft, while not being unsummonable because they're too strong or hard to summon, it litterally means that it's not part of magecraft perks

Being called higher plane of existance is not mean to be 4D..... I seriously don't understand your reasoning.

that's how it works, without further proof, being in a higher plane of existence IS 4D. Unless you can prove that their current plane of existences is, say, 9D

Their are tell to be stronger, how it's hard to read "heroic spirit are the most powerful being"

Differing from the normal definition of familiars that can be likened to minor mascots unable to be stronger than their masters, Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with. Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft.

flowery langage, shiki is a being in the nasuverse. If anything they're supposed to be the strongest familiars in this context

The summoning can little be made only because Justizia body and her third True magic ......


The Holy Grail War itself was devised by Justizia, and she was to become the key of the ritual. The Great Grail was created through forming a large circuit from many multi-layered Crests carved onto a bare rock over fifty meters in diameter. It was covered in multiple layers of circuits, while its many geometric figures turned in place. Justizia stood in the center of the it, and became the key to reenacting the Third Magic.

"The Holy Grail would have only been just a Holy Grail without her, as her will was required for Heavens Feel." is the end of your quote. She is the key to the third magic, not to summoning servants. The grail without justeaze is still the grail, and still has a connection to the root/throne

Magi is the title of user of magecraft and true magic user + the 5 magicians was mention 2 sec before and even a complete third magic can't summon them.

true magic users are magicians (mahōtsukai compared to Majutsushi), and nasu really insist on the fact that any talk about magi doesn't include magicians, even if said magicians also has access to magecraft, like when he compare them or use them as comparison for someone like medea, and it especially doesn't include their magic

Divinity is how much close of a god, god have divinity and they are above divine spirit.

Divinity (神性, Shinsei?) is the measure of whether one has Divine Spirit aptitude or not.

Anyway what was making them having possibly authority resistance is because their divinity is high enough to make them more close to the planet than the human.

source? authorities are pretty explicitly the source of the resistance to other authorities. Gilgamesh and BB have equal authority, so they negate each other. A superior divine spirit is unaffected by the authority of an inferior one because they have a better authority

Fairy can't have divinity they have they own system of Greate mother/father and A-rei, the comparaison is because heroic spirit are close to fairy race. And except if you tell that God that have become heroic spirit don't have anymore divinity because of that then big lol

or you know, they can have both?

In terms of classification, they were not Wrath, but closer to Faeries.
Faeries were materialized forces using the imagination of humans as framework, while Heroic Spirits were woven purely from the ideals of humans through and through.

except that it's also the reference used for their divinities explanation.

Q: What kind of role does the World give to Heroic Spirits that aren't Guardians (Counter Guardians)? Also, what do magi call people with high divinity or are closer to the planet?

Heroic Spirits that aren't Guardians are simply treated as traditions that lend power to the later people. Those that became closer to the planet don't mix well with people so they fall into the categories of Divine Spirits and Elementals.


First since you don't seem to know that. God gain power and divinity by faith of people in them. And divinity is what allow to have a stronger authority or weaker + We have already exemple of servant being to resist an authority because their divinity.


Heroic spirit work the same way it's why they are classed as elemental and divine spirit and that they have high divinity and fairy and divine spirit have the two a domain and authority that work the same way.

faith buff their authorities... their already existing authorities. If HS don't have authorities, there's nothing to buff. In comparison, it would be like saying that humans in DC should get superman buff because they also live under a yellow sun

Anyways anni is here so don't count on me to answer for now lol

alright

 

[Vietthai96]

Idk what the hell you guy are debate, but living in higher plane of existence doesn't automatically grant you the higher d

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Obviously they are lower d than their summoned versions, their summoned versions are more powerful than the version in the Throne from where they brought power with various restrictions, the MoonCell can't summon them because they are lower d and their avatars are higher d so it's just meaningless, and we probably will never see a true Heroic Spirit because they are so weak compared to the summoned versions that it's just a waste of time.

Honestly this type of logic it's so absurd that I can't understand it. At the really very least they are the same d than the summoned versions but significantly more powerfuls, and from how I see everything point to them be higher d than the other versions.

 

[TypeOU]

Idk what the hell you guy are debate, but living in higher plane of existence doesn't automatically grant you the higher d

actually they have an higher existence too

Obviously they are lower d than their summoned versions, their summoned versions are more powerful than the version in the Throne from where they brought power with various restrictions, the MoonCell can't summon them because they are lower d and their avatars are higher d so it's just meaningless, and we probably will never see a true Heroic Spirit because they are so weak compared to the summoned versions that it's just a waste of time.

Honestly this type of logic it's so absurd that I can't understand it. At the really very least they are the same d than the summoned versions but significantly more powerfuls, and from how I see everything point to them be higher d than the other versions.

except that servants can have things the HS does not have, like unsealed mythological mystic code, a saint graph, hacks to amplify them

 

[QuasiYuri]

actually they have an higher existence too

except that servants can have things the HS does not have, like unsealed mythological mystic code, a saint graph, hacks to amplify them

The two first things are servants limitations, not a Heroic Spirit problem.

Also it isn't rare for servants gaining new stuff to ends up as a part of the Heroic Spirit either.

 

[TypeOU]

a saint graph isn't necessarily a nerf, it litterally defines how strong they will be. And the mystic code is explicitly sealed for everyone

 

[QuasiYuri]

a saint graph isn't necessarily a nerf, it litterally defines how strong they will be. And the mystic code is explicitly sealed for everyone

And it can't contain some NPs, such as in Xuanzang's case.

For servants yes, but Heroic Spirit aren't sealed by anything.

 

[Regidian]

the mystic code is tell to be sealed to evry human not every being (except if you tell that void shiki is sealed by ex) and if we want to go above, arturia in exetlla and saber venus are stronger than the extra CCC servant.

the two can kill Velber star and sefar when Nero tell she couldn't beat her with mythical mystic code.

and like yuri have tell, at least in fgo it's described that evrything that a servant get or do is registered in the throne

 

[Regidian]

and saint graph is like the more restrictive thing they can have, it's have limit them in class, in skill, in power, juste see how much grand servant get their power disappear with a big atk

 

[Vietthai96]

actually they have an higher existence too

No you need to prove they are HDE

 

[Regidian]

No you need to prove they are HDE

they scale above people who already acepted as HDE.

 

[Vietthai96]

they scale above people who already acepted as HDE.

Scale in term of what

 

[Regidian]

Scale in term of what

power and existance, some of their avatar are 6/8D

 

[TypeOU]

And it can't contain some NPs, such as in Xuanzang's case.

For servants yes, but Heroic Spirit aren't sealed by anything.

We're talking about the tier so irrelevant. If the saint graph can handle a low 1-C servant, or buff a servant to low 1-C, all HS aren't automatically low 1-C

the mystic code is tell to be sealed to evry human not every being (except if you tell that void shiki is sealed by ex) and if we want to go above, arturia in exetlla and saber venus are stronger than the extra CCC servant.

you're the one who gotta prove that HSs can use it, not the other way around.

the two can kill Velber star and sefar when Nero tell she couldn't beat her with mythical mystic code.

because artoria has excalibur, gil has EA and karna has vasavi shakti, not because any of them are "true heroic spirits". Their heroic spirits are low 1-C, not every HS

and like yuri have tell, at least in fgo it's described that evrything that a servant get or do is registered in the throne

again, talking about stats

 

[Regidian]

We're talking about the tier so irrelevant. If the saint graph can handle a low 1-C servant, or buff a servant to low 1-C, all HS aren't automatically low 1-C

you're the one who gotta prove that HSs can use it, not the other way around.

because artoria has excalibur, gil has EA and karna has vasavi shakti, not because any of them are "true heroic spirits". Their heroic spirits are low 1-C, not every HS

again, talking about stats

your first phrase mean litteraly nothing you know ? saint graph don't buff servant outside of their maxiaml power allowed as a servant (otherwise the saint graph just break)....

where i tell that HS can use it ? i tell that this come from them, it's litteraly come from their core like tell in OP

gil wasn't tell to be able to beat Velber star nor Karna (karna jjst beat sefar not velber star), every HS live in the same higher plane of existence and all of them are called higher dimmensionnal being, it's stupid to tell some will have the same power than their dimmension and other not.

and for Nero she litteraly she could have summon a Heroic spirit to help her to defeat Velber star but she choose instead to go with a god

and again it's about stat, just tell me one time where it's mention that the saint gral was able to boost the servant above the heroic spirit.


i mean i don't think it's that hard to understand, Saint graph = vessel for emanation of heroic spirit, vessel exist litteraly because we can't summon them ourself, and even the world be able to summoning one is consiered a miracle.

"Pure Heroic Spirits, the "main body" in the Throne of Heroes, can only be summoned by the World, and summoning even one is considered to be a miraculous occurrence."



In first all heroic spirit are normally only summoned by the world, and the world only summon them as grand servant if he use a vessel.

normal servant arejust called "the resulting Servants are described as "cheap, convenient, multi-purpose familiars" by Andreson".

 

[QuasiYuri]

We're talking about the tier so irrelevant. If the saint graph can handle a low 1-C servant, or buff a servant to low 1-C, all HS aren't automatically low 1-C

It is relevant. Saint Graphs can handle servants but not HS, just like how too powerful NP can't be handled by it.

 

[TypeOU]

tour first phrase mean litteraly nothing you know ? it's not

how? because I didn't say "I'm"? I'm saying that just because a servant like the CCC main servants had low 1-C stats thanks to the mythological mystic doesn't mean the HS has it, and the same applies for grand. The grand saint graph defines their stats, so you can't just assume that HS are automatically stronger

It is relevant. Saint Graphs can handle servants but not HS, just like how too powerful NP can't be handled by it.

it's not a matter of how powerful the np is, or gil wouldn't have EA.

 

[Regidian]

how? because I didn't say "I'm"? I'm saying that just because a servant like the CCC main servants had low 1-C stats thanks to the mythological mystic doesn't mean the HS has it, and the same applies for grand. The grand saint graph defines their stats, so you can't just assume that HS are automatically stronger

it's not a matter of how powerful the np is, or gil wouldn't have EA.

arturia don't mythical mystic code, and mythical mystic code= power of the heroic spririt core sealed by moon cell.

you litteraly assume that emanation of true body are stronger than the real body because they have a thing that limit their strengh defining her stat......... Do you litteramy understand why they have saint graph as servant in first ?, all saint graph limit the strengh of servant and grand servant to a certain level, i mean litteraly why, king hassan have used all the power of grand saint graph with only one of his big atk hax.

 

[Regidian]

it's not a matter of how powerful the np is, or gil wouldn't have EA.

arjuna alter laugh, ibuki too we have many description of servant litteraly having "i can't use this NP because limited by my saint graph"

 

[Regidian]

not like we have many example of being telling to be weakened because their saint graph making them even weaker than their alive counterpart, or that pratically every divine spirit have their strengh reduced because the existance of saint graph as servant.


you litteray try to hypothetise that a thing made for containing only an emanation of a being is stronger than the full body whithout these restriction (and the saint graph doesn't even boost people it's the people that boost the saint graph, they just modify it or add more mana in it)

find me a screen where it's tell that their become stronger than their heroic spirit main body as a servant and we can talk about this

 

[TypeOU]

arturia don't mythical mystic code

she is buffed by her superior saint graph, it's called an example

, and mythical mystic code= power of the heroic spririt core sealed by moon cell.

not. The mythological mystic code is the origin of humanity sealed in every living being

you litteraly assume that emanation of true body are stronger than the real body because they have a thing that limit their strengh defining her stat......... Do you litteramy understand why they have saint graph as servant in first ?, all saint graph limit the strengh of servant and grand servant to a certain level, i mean litteraly why, king hassan have used all the power of grand saint graph with only one of his big atk hax.

they aren't emanation, they're copies of the data. If I have a computer, and I copy everything onto another computer, and the new computer has 1 tera of memory, would you say that the old computer must have at least 1 tera of memory? and your argument about king hassan is fallacious, you're assimilating "limits" and "limited" even though these 2 words are not related. Everyone has limits, except if you're trying to tell me that HS are tier 0? Because that's what having no limit means you know?

arjuna alter laugh, ibuki too we have many description of servant litteraly having "i can't use this NP because limited by my saint graph"

again, you're the one who gotta prove it. Until you can find an explanation as to why gilgamesh and arthur proto still have their np, it's not a limit of power compared to the HS.

not like we have many example of being telling to be weakened because their saint graph making them even weaker than their alive counterpart, or that pratically every divine spirit have their strengh reduced because the existance of saint graph as servant.

and you managed to give the one wrong example. Divine spirits aren't weaker because their saint graph limit them, they're weaker because they're not gods, like how arcueid could have been at full power during extra but her master thought she was a god so she was nerfed

you litteray try to hypothetise that a thing made for containing only an emanation of a being is stronger than the full body whithout these restriction (and the saint graph doesn't even boost people it's the people that boost the saint graph, they just modify it or add more mana in it)

not emanation, copies.

find me a screen where it's tell that their become stronger than their heroic spirit main body as a servant and we can talk about this

you're the one with the burden of proof

 

[QuasiYuri]

they aren't emanation, they're copies of the data. If I have a computer, and I copy everything onto another computer, and the new computer has 1 tera of memory, would you say that the old computer must have at least 1 tera of memory? and your argument about king hassan is fallacious, you're assimilating "limits" and "limited" even though these 2 words are not related. Everyone has limits, except if you're trying to tell me that HS are tier 0? Because that's what having no limit means you know?

not emanation, copies.

Heroic Spirits are beings cut off from the time axis and can be summoned in any era, regardless of past and future. However, the only one that can summon the main body of the Heroic Spirits is the "world", and alas, humans can't summon the main body and can only summon their emanations, the Servants.

You are the one saying that servants are stronger than their true selves, despite everything saying the opposite, so the burden of proof is on you.

 

[Regidian]

she is buffed by her superior saint graph, it's called an example

not. The mythological mystic code is the origin of humanity sealed in every living being

they aren't emanation, they're copies of the data. If I have a computer, and I copy everything onto another computer, and the new computer has 1 tera of memory, would you say that the old computer must have at least 1 tera of memory? and your argument about king hassan is fallacious, you're assimilating "limits" and "limited" even though these 2 words are not related. Everyone has limits, except if you're trying to tell me that HS are tier 0? Because that's what having no limit means you know?

again, you're the one who gotta prove it. Until you can find an explanation as to why gilgamesh and arthur proto still have their np, it's not a limit of power compared to the HS.

and you managed to give the one wrong example. Divine spirits aren't weaker because their saint graph limit them, they're weaker because they're not gods, like how arcueid could have been at full power during extra but her master thought she was a god so she was nerfed

not emanation, copies.

you're the one with the burden of proof

She never tell to have a superior saint graph, and moon cell servant don't have saint graph they have cyber frame.

Tamamo got it and she not human you know? It's litteraly tell that it's come from the heroic spirit core.

"By entering the servant's virtual mind/body to access the Heroic spirit core directly, it is possible for the master to reach the heroic spirit's root that the Moon Cell had sealed away, and release the Mythological Mystic Code."

Their are emanation it's tell multiple time.
What fo you mean by being fallacious ? Hassan lose his power as a grand servant because the atk he use was to much for the grand saint graph.


Difference between Heroic Spirits and Servants
Heroic Spirits were Heroes who have left behind great feats in legends after death and become subjects of belief.
Normally, a Heroic Spirit is summoned by the world as power that protects humans.
The ones summoned by humans are Servants. However, Heroic Spirits cannot be controlled by humans, and to summon them, the Holy Grail or something with power of that sort must be used.
The Servant system of Fuyuki summons Heroic Spirits with the power of the Greater Grail. Heroic Spirits summoned as Servants are like "emanations", copies created using the information of the main body of the Heroic Servant.


Even the Holy Grail lacks the power to summon a true Heroic Spirit, so the process is facilitated by summoning them into one of seven vessels prepared beforehand. The Greater Grail makes a copy using information from the "main body" of the Heroic Spirit, an "emanation", that returns to them as information, in the form of a soul, upon the death of the Servant.



Only the World itself can summon the "main body" of Heroic Spirits, so humans can only summon emanations of the heroes, such as through the Servant system, even with something like a Holy Grail.


You litteraly merge multiple thing... I don't talk about god being reduced as divine spirit. But how it's explain in babylonia that when summoned as a servant or through pseudo servant, their saint graph is reduced to the one of a servant.



For Divine Spirits to be summoned as Servants, their Saint Graphs are reduced to a similar level as Servant, losing much of their power and Authority. In cases such as the Three Goddess Alliance in the Babylonia Singularity, the goddesses are able to be summoned with their Saint Graphs on the level of Divine Spirits due to unique circumstances.






Burden of proof? It's tell multiple time that servant are weaker, and it's like basic logic, the real ritual to invok servant and let them come to the world with their emanation is the grand servant summoning of Alaya because she the only that can summon them. Human tried to copied this and create the servant system we know, who is much weaker than the original one.

Regular Servants look like "cheap, convenient, multi-purpose familiars" in comparison.


+ Already show many thing above

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Honestly, this talk about how the true selves are weaker than their avatars who are said many times are nerfed because it can't be used the full power make my brain cells die, when you find at least one time in which is said that the Heroic Spirits are weaker then this talk can be continued.

 

[Mageman460]

Wait ... if even the Greater Grail can't summon a Heroic Spirit, would that make them 1-A then? Or was it agreed the Greater Grail was Unknown?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Wait ... if even the Greater Grail can't summon a Heroic Spirit, would that make them 1-A then? Or was it agreed the Greater Grail was Unknown?

Unknown.

 

[Regidian]

Wait ... if even the Greater Grail can't summon a Heroic Spirit, would that make them 1-A then? Or was it agreed the Greater Grail was Unknown?

Greater grail is unknowm

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

There seem to be a some sort of connection between the Throne and the Root because of how the Greater Grail reach the Root, but it was left as Unknown.

 

[QuasiYuri]

There seem to be a some sort of connection between the Throne and the Root because of how the Greater Grail reach the Root, but it was left as Unknown.

The Throne's supposed to reside her iirc, so yeah.

 

[TypeOU]

Heroic Spirits are beings cut off from the time axis and can be summoned in any era, regardless of past and future. However, the only one that can summon the main body of the Heroic Spirits is the "world", and alas, humans can't summon the main body and can only summon their emanations, the Servants.

"Heroic Spirits summoned as Servants are like "emanations", copies created using the information of the main body of the Heroic Servant."

litterally from the same materials you quoted. A servant is the information of the HS put in the saint graph, not an emanation like the new gods are to DC, so no, the basic assumption that "an emanation being an inferior copy created by the original, the original is always stronger" doesn't apply here

You are the one saying that servants are stronger than their true selves, despite everything saying the opposite, so the burden of proof is on you.

"we have proof so the burden of proof is on you"-except that you don't, something that can be debunked by reading for 2 more seconds isn't a proof btw

She never tell to have a superior saint graph,

she literally rivals a mooncell powered servant

and moon cell servant don't have saint graph they have cyber frame.

semantics, they play the same role

Tamamo got it and she not human you know? It's litteraly tell that it's come from the heroic spirit core.

she's still part of humanity, because nasuverse. Wouldn't be an heroic spirit otherwise

"By entering the servant's virtual mind/body to access the Heroic spirit core directly, it is possible for the master to reach the heroic spirit's root that the Moon Cell had sealed away, and release the Mythological Mystic Code."

" To summarize, it is the power of the Origin that began the human genome. It is something all human beings hold within them.", this time, I just had to check the sentence before that

Their are emanation it's tell multiple time.

which aren't defined in the way that imply that an emanation is inferior to the original as said above, but rather meant to be a copy, nice. Meaning takes precedence over the word

What fo you mean by being fallacious ? Hassan lose his power as a grand servant because the atk he use was to much for the grand saint graph.

"So, by using all the might in that superb Saint Graph, the strike that “granted the concept of death” could be performed. And afterwards, King Hassan’s Saint Graph became that of a normal Servant’s."
no he didn't, he used his whole saint graph.

Difference between Heroic Spirits and Servants
Heroic Spirits were Heroes who have left behind great feats in legends after death and become subjects of belief.
Normally, a Heroic Spirit is summoned by the world as power that protects humans.
The ones summoned by humans are Servants. However, Heroic Spirits cannot be controlled by humans, and to summon them, the Holy Grail or something with power of that sort must be used.
The Servant system of Fuyuki summons Heroic Spirits with the power of the Greater Grail. Heroic Spirits summoned as Servants are like "emanations", copies created using the information of the main body of the Heroic Servant.


Even the Holy Grail lacks the power to summon a true Heroic Spirit, so the process is facilitated by summoning them into one of seven vessels prepared beforehand. The Greater Grail makes a copy using information from the "main body" of the Heroic Spirit, an "emanation", that returns to them as information, in the form of a soul, upon the death of the Servant.



Only the World itself can summon the "main body" of Heroic Spirits, so humans can only summon emanations of the heroes, such as through the Servant system, even with something like a Holy Grail.

when is it said that the HS is stronger? It only says that the process is facilitated with a vessel (saint graph)... and the information acquired from the war comes back after it?

You litteraly merge multiple thing... I don't talk about god being reduced as divine spirit. But how it's explain in babylonia that when summoned as a servant or through pseudo servant, their saint graph is reduced to the one of a servant.
For Divine Spirits to be summoned as Servants, their Saint Graphs are reduced to a similar level as Servant, losing much of their power and Authority. In cases such as the Three Goddess Alliance in the Babylonia Singularity, the goddesses are able to be summoned with their Saint Graphs on the level of Divine Spirits due to unique circumstances.

... that's litterally what I said above "just like arcueid was reduced from archetype earth to a god, gods are reduced from gods to servants, because that's what they are"

 

[QuasiYuri]

"Heroic Spirits summoned as Servants are like "emanations", copies created using the information of the main body of the Heroic Servant."

litterally from the same materials you quoted. A servant is the information of the HS put in the saint graph, not an emanation like the new gods are to DC, so no, the basic assumption that "an emanation being an inferior copy created by the original, the original is always stronger" doesn't apply here.

Except it litteraly is the same as an emenation like DC. Hell, they say and repeat that servants are mere shadows and coe all the time.

When Archer Gilgamesh is summoned, he's not a copy of the entire Heroic Spirit known under the name of Gilgamesh, he's a small, limited part of it.

Tbh I think anyone knowledgeable on this topic would be annoyed by how you are going against the obvious.

"we have proof so the burden of proof is on you"-except that you don't, something that can be debunked by reading for 2 more seconds isn't a proof btw

You didn't debunk anything. You're just refusing and inventing that now servants are perfect, non limited copies of the HS, which is obviously wrong.

So you have to prove that a limited, incomplete copy litteraly likened to a mere "emanation" or "shadow" of the Heroic Spirit is actually stronger than the HS.

So until you can prove that being a limited emanation means that you are stronger than your original self encompassing all of your forms, no amount of denying will matter (which shouldn't even exist to begin with, making this debate even more irrelevant since servants being stronger than their HS self obviously won't be accepted with no concrete evidences, should they even exist).

 

[TypeOU]

Except it litteraly is the same as an emenation like DC. Hell, they say and repeat that servants are mere shadows and coe all the time.

DC emanation don't have a saint graph
DC emanation are created with the power of the new god

both of these prevent the original>emanation rule to automatically apply

When Archer Gilgamesh is summoned, he's not a copy of the entire Heroic Spirit known under the name of Gilgamesh, he's a small, limited part of it.

this is totally unrelated to the power of the heroic spirit, it only means that he isn't as versatile.

Tbh I think anyone knowledgeable on this topic would be annoyed by how you are going against the obvious.

tbh anyone knowledgeable would just say that HS shouldn't get a key because of how many conflicting sources they are including some saying that they're only datas. we don't make datas fight. Other sources include "they're just their real self", and of course, "fucking benienma can go to the throne like it's nothing"

You didn't debunk anything. You're just refusing and inventing that now servants are perfect, non limited copies of the HS, which is obviously wrong.

I didn't say that, I said that HS aren't automatically stronger, totally different thing

So you have to prove that a limited, incomplete copy litteraly likened to a mere "emanation" or "shadow" of the Heroic Spirit is actually stronger than the HS.

correction: an incomplete copy using a vessel that might or might not be stronger than their true body

So until you can prove that being a limited emanation means that you are stronger than your original self encompassing all of your forms, no amount of denying will matter (which shouldn't even exist to begin with, making this debate even more irrelevant since servants being stronger than their HS self obviously won't be accepted with no concrete evidences, should they even exist).

saint graph.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

The Throne's supposed to reside her iirc, so yeah.

It's complicate, some think it reside in the Root and there are things that point to something like that (for example the way in which the Greater Grail reach the Root), and some others think that no and there is also things that point to that (for example how Paracelsus is obsessed with the Root), it's because of this type of nature of the Throne and Heroic Spirits that I think if the key is done it should be Unknown, at least 1-C.

 

[Regidian]

"Heroic Spirits summoned as Servants are like "emanations", copies created using the information of the main body of the Heroic Servant."

litterally from the same materials you quoted. A servant is the information of the HS put in the saint graph, not an emanation like the new gods are to DC, so no, the basic assumption that "an emanation being an inferior copy created by the original, the original is always stronger" doesn't apply here

"we have proof so the burden of proof is on you"-except that you don't, something that can be debunked by reading for 2 more seconds isn't a proof btw

she literally rivals a mooncell powered servant

semantics, they play the same role

she's still part of humanity, because nasuverse. Wouldn't be an heroic spirit otherwise

" To summarize, it is the power of the Origin that began the human genome. It is something all human beings hold within them.", this time, I just had to check the sentence before that

which aren't defined in the way that imply that an emanation is inferior to the original as said above, but rather meant to be a copy, nice. Meaning takes precedence over the word

"So, by using all the might in that superb Saint Graph, the strike that “granted the concept of death” could be performed. And afterwards, King Hassan’s Saint Graph became that of a normal Servant’s."
no he didn't, he used his whole saint graph.

when is it said that the HS is stronger? It only says that the process is facilitated with a vessel (saint graph)... and the information acquired from the war comes back after it?


... that's litterally what I said above "just like arcueid was reduced from archetype earth to a god, gods are reduced from gods to servants, because that's what they are"

Who have compared them to god of DC here?
The assumption that of the definition of emanation doesn't apply here ? What do you want to even tell bruh you litteraly tell discard what mean emanation because i don't like it.



What debunk you have made pls?

Here we go Heroic spirit stated to be higher dimmensionnal being.

Stated to have ascend in a higher plane of existance.

Can be summoned only by the world and their are the powerful being.

Multiple servant stated that their are weaker than even when their are alive.

Even grand servant saint graph can't survive big atk of grand servant.

Saint graph not being the thing that rule their stat as it's the mana of master that do it (litteraly why arturia is weaker with shirou than with rin)

Being like Gilgamesh in the beginning of CCC don't have saint graal/cyber frame nor class and he is stronger than everyone, having the moon cell can't even do a thing.

Arturia not having saint graph in extella and she stronger that most of the people that had mythical mystic code.

Saint graph is already show to reduce the strengh of servant, servant morgan full asc is 1/3 weaker than her living counterparts, ibuki need to force her own saint graph to evolve to use her np, or divine spirit having their saint graph reduced to a normal servant when summoning as servant.


She don't have get better cyber frame she got the same cyber frame than all top servant.

So you don't even now than throne of heroes is not only for human bruh we have litteraly concept existing in or litteral god in.


Countered by non-human having it and that it doesn't change that they unlock in the Heroic spirit core. As the power of origin is not even a thing only for human we know the existance of this from knk.

""Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with."

"Even the Holy Grail lacks the power to summon a true Heroic Spirit"



With your fantastic logic, the saint graph don't have the power to summon a true Heroic spirit but have the power to create a vessel + a perfect copy of this true heroic spirit???? Don't you see a problem with that? Fck it's like telling a god don't have the power to create a planet but can create the planet and the sun.


Litteraly tel he used all the saint graph to make a simple ark that is a part of his NP. Meaning what? Meaning that grand saint graph is not enough.


But god are not reduced to servant their are reduced to divine spirit.


And when a divine spirit is summon as a servant their are even more weakened because the saint graph of servant is bad.

 

[Regidian]

+ you still don't have answered the fact that the real servant summoning is the grand servant summon,



That servant summoning made by human is a bad replica. That make servant being cheap to the use of human.



That only the World is tell to have the power to summon true body of heroic spirit and that even that it's miraculous.

 

[Regidian]

both of these prevent the original>emanation rule to automatically apply

this is totally unrelated to the power of the heroic spirit, it only means that he isn't as versatile.

tbh anyone knowledgeable would just say that HS shouldn't get a key because of how many conflicting sources they are including some saying that they're only datas. we don't make datas fight. Other sources include "they're just their real self", and of course, "fucking benienma can go to the throne like it's nothing"

I didn't say that, I said that HS aren't automatically stronger, totally different thing

correction: an incomplete copy using a vessel that might or might not be stronger than their true body

saint graph.

Saint graph is the thing that restrict their strength.

This is related, the litteral first things we know about them is their just part of real and information heroic spirit soul and that their return to the real one after their death.

Heroic spirit are information, not data. What do you mean by their real selves? All description of true heroic spirit is = the death that have ascend in throne of heroes.

And many servant in their profile mention being able to live in the throne of heroes, Jeanne was litteraly able to leave by force the throne of heroes.

HS are litteraly to be higher dimmensionnal existance. Living in a higher Dimmensionnal place, having ascended in this place.

Find me this description for normal servant pls.


The vessel was never stated to be stronger most of the time it's tell to be weaker, it's still wait you to show one time when it's even mentionned to be stronger.


Saint graph is what limited them, tell by praticaly all servant in fgo, but i suppose that read is a thing to hard.

 

[Regidian]

But well it sure that vessel that are tell to be restrictif, to be cheap, multi function, or to not even being able to support their power in many case is supperior than their original selve that are described as higher dimensionnal Existing in a higher dimensionnal plane and being and the most powerful being to protect the world.


I'm sure the next time you will tell that divine spirit>their god selve?

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

the fact that a heroic spirit is mentioned as the strongest beings enough to prove that they are stronger than their avatar form (servant)


Pure Heroic Spirits, the "main body" in the Throne of Heroes, can only be summoned by the World, and summoning even one is considered to be a miraculous occurrence. Differing from the normal definition of familiars that can be likened to minor mascots unable to be stronger than their masters, Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with.



are mentioned as being of a higher existence, and they are categorized like divine spirits which have been accepted on this wiki as a higher dimensional existence


Heroic Spirits are beings of a higher existence, becoming categorically closer to Elementals than wraiths. Differing from how Elementals are "power" granted form using human imagination as a container, they are entirely woven from the ideals of people all throughout. They are freed from the constraints of time itself and removed from the ring of reincarnation, moved to the Throne of Heroes (英霊の座, Eirei no Za?), a place existing outside of both the World and the time axis. The Throne of Heroes is also occasionally referred to as the Ring of Deterrence (抑止の輪, Yokushi no Wa?), referring to how it is mainly used by the Counter Force. Those that become closer to the planet do not mix well with people, so they fall into the categories of Divine Spirits and Elementals.


So why do you think that servants who are just avatars are stronger than true form?
I still do not understand

 

[TypeOU]

Who have compared them to god of DC here?

the gods of DC are the most well known example of the regular meaning of emanation.

The assumption that of the definition of emanation doesn't apply here ? What do you want to even tell bruh you litteraly tell discard what mean emanation because i don't like it.

it's not an assumption, they litterally give the definition of emanation and it's not the same. "copies created using the information of the main body of the Heroic Servant.". If someone copies the information of my body, then multiply it by 100, do you really think it's not gonna be 100 times stronger because "it's a copy"? Because that's your logic as to why the HS has to be stronger than the servant

What debunk you have made pls?

Heroic Spirits are beings cut off from the time axis and can be summoned in any era, regardless of past and future. However, the only one that can summon the main body of the Heroic Spirits is the "world", and alas, humans can't summon the main body and can only summon their emanations, the Servants.

"Heroic Spirits summoned as Servants are like "emanations", copies created using the information of the main body of the Heroic Servant."


litterally from the same materials you quoted. A servant is the information of the HS put in the saint graph, not an emanation like the new gods are to DC, so no, the basic assumption that "an emanation being an inferior copy created by the original, the original is always stronger" doesn't apply here

that

Here we go Heroic spirit stated to be higher dimmensionnal being.

cool, so? 4D characters aren't 8D and especially not 9D

Stated to have ascend in a higher plane of existance.

irrelevant since, like someone said above

Can be summoned only by the world and their are the powerful being.

doesn't make them 8D and straight up untrue, shiki exists. they're the strongest familiars

Multiple servant stated that their are weaker than even when their are alive.

irrelevant

Even grand servant saint graph can't survive big atk of grand servant.

"So, by using all the might in that superb Saint Graph, the strike that “granted the concept of death” could be performed. And afterwards, King Hassan’s Saint Graph became that of a normal Servant’s."

Saint graph not being the thing that rule their stat as it's the mana of master that do it (litteraly why arturia is weaker with shirou than with rin)

both does, saber are known to be stronger than the other classes for a reason, angra is the weakest servant for a reason etc...

Being like Gilgamesh in the beginning of CCC don't have saint graal/cyber frame nor class and he is stronger than everyone, having the moon cell can't even do a thing.

that much does apply for heroic spirit gilgamesh, not the others.

Arturia not having saint graph in extella and she stronger that most of the people that had mythical mystic code.

she does have one, well a cyber frame anyway, she is basically the mooncell equivalent of a grand servant.

Saint graph is already show to reduce the strengh of servant, servant morgan full asc is 1/3 weaker than her living counterparts, ibuki need to force her own saint graph to evolve to use her np, or divine spirit having their saint graph reduced to a normal servant when summoning as servant.

again, those apply for morgan (not sure how good a x3 compared to a servant is gonna be tho). Ibuki and arjuna alter are gods so it's less an issue of power level and more of an issue of contradiction, heroic spirit and servant aren't gods.

She don't have get better cyber frame she got the same cyber frame than all top servant.

wrong, she is the mooncell ultimate detterent for a reason

So you don't even now than throne of heroes is not only for human bruh we have litteraly concept existing in or litteral god in.

like who? gods are registered by chaldea's F.A.T.E system

Countered by non-human having it and that it doesn't change that they unlock in the Heroic spirit core. As the power of origin is not even a thing only for human we know the existance of this from knk.

you're confusing having an origin with the origin of all humans, the latter of which is implied to be specifically gilgamesh's origin. Anyway no matter how twisted it might be, they're all humans. Demi gods are humans, onis are humans, tamamo is an human. Of course there are multiple stades. "humans" servants are those that could exist in our world, with no superpower or whatever (well some does have superpower, but it's more like they're not known for being superhumans). "human" being are those of our species. But "human" as a whole is very large in the nasuverse and encompasses pretty much everything that could be registered in the throne of heroes

""Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with."

again, shiki void exist, it's supposed to be familiars, and the mages inability is unrelated to their strength but rather, the fact that servants aren't encompassed by magecraft or the existing true magic

"Even the Holy Grail lacks the power to summon a true Heroic Spirit"

same here, altho the holy grail can summon servants I guess

With your fantastic logic, the saint graph don't have the power to summon a true Heroic spirit but have the power to create a vessel + a perfect copy of this true heroic spirit???? Don't you see a problem with that? Fck it's like telling a god don't have the power to create a planet but can create the planet and the sun.

first, still not a perfect copy. Second, it's like saying that artoria can't create a country busting tsunami but can destroy a 6D~8D being. Just because something is not part of your kit doesn't necessarily means everything you can do is weaker than that, it would be stupid

Litteraly tel he used all the saint graph to make a simple ark that is a part of his NP. Meaning what? Meaning that grand saint graph is not enough.

wtf? no? king hassan can't impose the concept of death, he is supposed to impose death, that's it, it's not supposed to work against immortals

But god are not reduced to servant their are reduced to divine spirit.

??? no? gods at chaldea are servants. And I'm supposed to be the unknowledgeable one?

And when a divine spirit is summon as a servant their are even more weakened because the saint graph of servant is bad.

because they're not a god, it's a nerf in status that result in a nerf of power, not in power directly

+ you still don't have answered the fact that the real servant summoning is the grand servant summon,

I fail to see how that's relevant, it only means that grand>normal servant

That only the World is tell to have the power to summon true body of heroic spirit and that even that it's miraculous.

grand servants aren't the real body. and again, just because you can't do something doesn't make you weaker than it, or everyone in our world would be 11B for not being able to affect a 0D structure with our nonexistent telekinesis

 

[TypeOU]

the fact that a heroic spirit is mentioned as the strongest beings enough to prove that they are stronger than their avatar form (servant)


Pure Heroic Spirits, the "main body" in the Throne of Heroes, can only be summoned by the World, and summoning even one is considered to be a miraculous occurrence. Differing from the normal definition of familiars that can be likened to minor mascots unable to be stronger than their masters, Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with.



are mentioned as being of a higher existence, and they are categorized like divine spirits which have been accepted on this wiki as a higher dimensional existence


Heroic Spirits are beings of a higher existence, becoming categorically closer to Elementals than wraiths. Differing from how Elementals are "power" granted form using human imagination as a container, they are entirely woven from the ideals of people all throughout. They are freed from the constraints of time itself and removed from the ring of reincarnation, moved to the Throne of Heroes (英霊の座, Eirei no Za?), a place existing outside of both the World and the time axis. The Throne of Heroes is also occasionally referred to as the Ring of Deterrence (抑止の輪, Yokushi no Wa?), referring to how it is mainly used by the Counter Force. Those that become closer to the planet do not mix well with people, so they fall into the categories of Divine Spirits and Elementals.


So why do you think that servants who are just avatars are stronger than true form?
I still do not understand

just check out my other answer, he basically said the same things

 

[PsychoWarper]

Have we ever actually seen these True Forms do anything? Like I know they exist but I can’t remember a time when one of them actually werent just chilling in the throne and actually doing shit.

Could be wrong tho.

 

[Mageman460]

The only time we've seen a Heroic Spirit was Jeanne d'Arc iirc.

Actually ... are they heroic spirits in the Final Singularity or still just servants? They seem more powerful as they can take down the infinitely regenerating Demon God Pillars. Then again .. there are people there that wouldn't be Heroic Spirits.

 

[Regidian]

the gods of DC are the most well known example of the regular meaning of emanation.

it's not an assumption, they litterally give the definition of emanation and it's not the same. "copies created using the information of the main body of the Heroic Servant.". If someone copies the information of my body, then multiply it by 100, do you really think it's not gonna be 100 times stronger because "it's a copy"? Because that's your logic as to why the HS has to be stronger than the servant




that

cool, so? 4D characters aren't 8D and especially not 9D

irrelevant since, like someone said above

doesn't make them 8D and straight up untrue, shiki exists. they're the strongest familiars

irrelevant

"So, by using all the might in that superb Saint Graph, the strike that “granted the concept of death” could be performed. And afterwards, King Hassan’s Saint Graph became that of a normal Servant’s."

both does, saber are known to be stronger than the other classes for a reason, angra is the weakest servant for a reason etc...

that much does apply for heroic spirit gilgamesh, not the others.

she does have one, well a cyber frame anyway, she is basically the mooncell equivalent of a grand servant.

again, those apply for morgan (not sure how good a x3 compared to a servant is gonna be tho). Ibuki and arjuna alter are gods so it's less an issue of power level and more of an issue of contradiction, heroic spirit and servant aren't gods.

wrong, she is the mooncell ultimate detterent for a reason

like who? gods are registered by chaldea's F.A.T.E system

you're confusing having an origin with the origin of all humans, the latter of which is implied to be specifically gilgamesh's origin. Anyway no matter how twisted it might be, they're all humans. Demi gods are humans, onis are humans, tamamo is an human. Of course there are multiple stades. "humans" servants are those that could exist in our world, with no superpower or whatever (well some does have superpower, but it's more like they're not known for being superhumans). "human" being are those of our species. But "human" as a whole is very large in the nasuverse and encompasses pretty much everything that could be registered in the throne of heroes

again, shiki void exist, it's supposed to be familiars, and the mages inability is unrelated to their strength but rather, the fact that servants aren't encompassed by magecraft or the existing true magic

same here, altho the holy grail can summon servants I guess

first, still not a perfect copy. Second, it's like saying that artoria can't create a country busting tsunami but can destroy a 6D~8D being. Just because something is not part of your kit doesn't necessarily means everything you can do is weaker than that, it would be stupid

wtf? no? king hassan can't impose the concept of death, he is supposed to impose death, that's it, it's not supposed to work against immortals

??? no? gods at chaldea are servants. And I'm supposed to be the unknowledgeable one?

because they're not a god, it's a nerf in status that result in a nerf of power, not in power directly

I fail to see how that's relevant, it only means that grand>normal servant

grand servants aren't the real body. and again, just because you can't do something doesn't make you weaker than it, or everyone in our world would be 11B for not being able to affect a 0D structure with our nonexistent telekinesis

Copy created the information of the heroic spirit. We give before this info if they don't have enough power to summon a true heroic spirit why which fucking logic they will have enough power to create perfect copy and empowered them??????????

"Even the Holy Grail lacks the power to summon a true Heroic Spirit".


The logic is not only that their servant is an avatar, but you only focus in that thing si ce you can't even contradict the rest.


By your same logic no reason for the World to even able to summon the real heroic spirit and be considered as a miracle if servant was stronger than them.

"However, the only one that can summon the main body of the Heroic Spirits is the "world", and alas, humans can't summon the main body."


Their are stated to be a higher dimmensionnal being from throne of heroes that exist above Moon cell and outside the World. ( What is the tier of Moon cell? Oh magic it's 8D).


He tell it's was irrevelant if higher dimmension are not confirmed to be infinite difference in power or reality/fiction, which it is and accepted in Vsb, if you want tot complain make a CRT about how higher dimmension are not higher dimension in nasuverse. You just don't chose which is and which are nor bruh.


Servant are familiar not Heroic spirit cool to not even being able to read thing ( you surely the only one in the world that tell that being not be able to be summoned by anyone are familiar).

Void shiki is not a being, she the avatar of [ ]. It's like telling archetype earth is not archetype earth because void shiki is from earth.


In what having servant themself tell to be weaker is irrelevant? Bruh

You just show i have reason one atk is enough to make a grand servant saint graph becoming a normal one, wow real boost we see here can't even withstand an atk.

Saber is tell to be the stronger because the people in not the class bruh, mata hari as a saber will not become suddenly stronger.

Angra is the weakest because his concept as a being not because saint graph.



She not the equivalent of grand servant in Moon cell, she have the same cyber frame than other Top servant stop inventing thing you can't even proof pls.

It an example and was stated by pretty much everyone to the point that only stheno and her sister is tell to be stronger than before as a living but well like Always it's false no?


Whereas other Servants may be constrained and reduced in ability by their class containers, Stheno actually becomes stronger when summoned as Assassin, simply because even the class container's base abilities are greater than hers.


She was never stated to be the ultimate rempart of moon cell stop inventing thing pls.


God are registered by C.H.A.L.D.E.A, yeah and i suppose that quirinus and other god was registered before even encounter chaldea too?

Gods that have died before reduction into Divine Spirits could presumably be recorded into the Throne of Heroes. It is also possible for demi-gods to ascend to full godhood like Heracles, who can be summoned from the Throne of Heroes with his complete Divinity.



Fgo litteraly tell the contrary every, we have litteraly a tag for all non human, if you play fgo you should know bruh (and don't even try to tell that it's only gameplay mechanics as it's false).

Anyways Tamamo is the burei of a god she have nothing to do with human , stop trying to change lore for your reasoning.


Again shiki void is not a being by herself, and Heroic spirit are not familiar, the familiar are servant, tell 200 time by now is begin to get annlying.

Their are being close to Elemental and divine spirit in nature nothing to do with familiar.


What same here? Nobody can summon shiki so don't have any reasoning. Yes it's the holy grail that summon servant but don't have power to summon true heroic spirit.


It's not being not part of the weak but not being able to have the goof kit but their don't have the strengh to do it. And sorry but summon a heroic spirit and summon a servant is the same thing just not same scale tell 10 time. Oh and for artotia it's a thing called the difference between AP and DC so not even a good exemple lol


King hassan can impose the concept of death, if he wasn't able no matter mana he had he would never be able simple logic.


You don't even understand what i have send and mean bruh. I tell you that god being reduced because becoming a servant is what happen to heroic spirit.

It's you the guy that tell that having servant saint graph boost.

And arjuna alter and ibuki are Divine spirit not god (not knowing that when it's the main part of lb4 story....)

that's litterally what I said above "just like arcueid was reduced from archetype earth to a god, gods are reduced from gods to servants, because that's what they are"


But are you not bekng able to read thing? This have nothing to do with God, can't you even read what i send ???

Divine spirit summoned as a servant got their divine spirit saint graph reduced. 0 fucking mention of god, and fuck even quirinis-romulus got reduced as a simple servant when he was a full god.


For Divine Spirits to be summoned as Servants, their Saint Graphs are reduced to a similar level as Servant, losing much of their power and Authority. In cases such as the Three Goddess Alliance in the Babylonia Singularity, the goddesses are able to be summoned with their Saint Graphs on the level of Divine Spirits due to unique circumstances.


It's mean that that in base their was only summoned as grand servant, them being servant so weaker is only because of human summoning.

Don't have tell grand servant are real body read pls.

It does in this case, if only the world have the power to summon the heroic spirit a'd that it's stated multiple time that, the grail don't have enough power to summon them or that their above magecraft is not only for your eyes.



But anyways you own reasoning stop when you tell that you acknowledge being higher dimmensionnal being= at least 4D since that will make all of them above 90% of servant. + One you talk about me assuming thing when you own reasoning yiu have created praticaly lore because if your reasoning that litteraly contradict the real lore.


So like i tell and other tol before assuming thing like "oh the holy grail could boost their power, or oh he tell to not be strong enough because it's not in his kit" or that in nasuverse praticaly everything is "human" when we know the contrary. Find the proof of what yiu tell because here you create a story for making heroic spirit weaker than the servant who are weaker than the living self for lost people when we already have proof that it's false

 

[Regidian]

Have we ever actually seen these True Forms do anything? Like I know they exist but I can’t remember a time when one of them actually werent just chilling in the throne and actually doing shit.

Could be wrong tho.

We never no, like i tell only the World could ever summoning them and it's would be miraculous event. But multiple material and Jeanne in the end of Apo show that they are not just information

 

[Regidian]

The only time we've seen a Heroic Spirit was Jeanne d'Arc iirc.

Actually ... are they heroic spirits in the Final Singularity or still just servants? They seem more powerful as they can take down the infinitely regenerating Demon God Pillars. Then again .. there are people there that wouldn't be Heroic Spirits.

No just servant, servant was able to beat Demon God pillar since the beginning

 

[Regidian]

But anyways i would not answer anymore to Type OU anymore, the guy litteraly try to create lore or just change them, to his own convenience

And he accept that higher dimmension exist in nasu but he don't accept that the throne of heroes is one bruh

 

[Regidian]

Just his logic made my day. Tell that a thing called not being strong enough (when it's called an omnipotent whish thing in first) to summon a true heroic spirit is powerful enough to create container + avatar + boost them is amusing even more when he qualifies the two as different Kit when the two are summoning just one is about summoning the true body (thing he can't do since no strong enough) and the other is summoning a emanation of the true body (with his logic would be stronger than the true body when in first he doesn't enough strong to summon it).



Same with all heroic spirit are human, like nursery rhymes is a conceptuel reality marble, very human this thing

 

[Mageman460]

The Throne is Higher Dimensional Existence, but I don't see the proof of it being even higher dimensional than the Moon Cell or Avalon.

 

[Regidian]

The Throne is Higher Dimensional Existence, but I don't see the proof of it being even higher dimensional than the Moon Cell or Avalon.

Avalon was recreated in throne of heroes ( summoned arturia have imagine of it in moon cell).

Being stronger than moon cell (arturia/gil) came from the throne of heroes.

And venus nero when using the power of regalia, sword of Mars and moon cell tell about channeling to a higher plane of existance (she already 6/8D here) and she mention the summoning of a heroic spirit. Before deciding to summon a god.


And moon cell is tell to have be a limited version of throne of heroes with his own data from the world he see (he don't see all Parralle world in nasuverse).

But anyways even without being above moon cell it's still need to be at least same Dimmension.

 

[Regidian]

Anyways i don't want to have an eternal debate, since we do have of our argument here.


What are you vote here guy?


Agree: QuasiYuri, Tam0n3m, KingofHeroes


Disagree: TypeOU


Neutral: Expectro2000xxx (if a key is made should be unknow, at least 1-C)

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I'm neutral in the creation of the key, but again, if is made it should be Unknown, at least 1-C.

 

[Regidian]

I'm neutral in the creation of the key, but again, if is made it should be Unknown, at least 1-C.

I think i will more do a "civilization page" for heroic spirit if accepted, they all gain the same ability so it's will be lore easier.

But i can accept unknow at least 1-C(which 1-C ?)

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

But i can accept unknow at least 1-C(which 1-C ?)

Both? They could be 7D/9D depending of what side is used and since 1-C cover both then don't matter, when talking about them it's just needed to clarify that, maybe can be even noted at the end of the page?

I think i will more do a "civilization page" for heroic spirit if accepted, they all gain the same ability so it's will be lore easier.

While it would be more easier I think it's a bit of a shame that each of them don't have their own Heroic Spirit key, though I'm not gonna complain because it indeed would be to much work.

 

[Regidian]

Both? They could be 7D/9D depending of what side is used and since 1-C cover both then don't matter, when talking about them it's just needed to clarify that, maybe can be even noted at the end of the page?

While it would be more easier I think it's a bit of a shame that each of them don't have their own Heroic Spirit key, though I'm not gonna complain because it indeed would be to much work.

Okay.
And way i mean heroic spirit don't have limitation in skill/np/class so same servant with different class (like saber and archer arturia) are the same heroic spirit and so need a "composite version" of their skill, Ill be weird to have 7 page of Arturia having the same last key

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Ill be weird to have 7 page of Arturia having the same last key

Fair enough, though in cases like that maybe another page named Heroic Spirit could solve the problem? Anyways, to much work so I'm not gonna continue talking about it.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Fair enough, though in cases like that maybe another page named Heroic Spirit could solve the problem? Anyways, to much work so I'm not gonna continue talking about it.

Was thinking the same. Maybe we would have a thing like "Heroic Spirit (name of the servant)" even if I hate how profiles title are written.

 

[Regidian]

Was thinking the same. Maybe we would have a thing like "Heroic Spirit (name of the servant)" even if I hate how profiles title are written.

We should too surely ask other staff to come no?

 

[TypeOU]

you know what, I just lost my whole comment and I don't have the time to rewrite it, also this debate is becoming way too long so I'm just gonna keep it on one point
heroic spirits can't scale to anything in the extraverse because mooncell servants are copies purely created by the mooncell analysis of earth and not actually related to the throne
Taiga: Is it correct to say that Moon Cell Servants aren't summoned from the counter force, but are instead reproduced copies like NPCs?
Sakura: Yes, that's right. To be more precise, they are perfectly reproduced from the Moon Cell's records of human history.
btw artoria can only be summoned with avalon on the mooncell, and it's the only time she was summoned with it, so that scaling is a no-no too
edit: more than long, I meant convoluted

 

[Regidian]

you know what, I just lost my whole comment and I don't have the time to rewrite it, also this debate is becoming way too long so I'm just gonna keep it on one point
heroic spirits can't scale to anything in the extraverse because mooncell servants are copies purely created by the mooncell analysis of earth and not actually related to the throne
Taiga: Is it correct to say that Moon Cell Servants aren't summoned from the counter force, but are instead reproduced copies like NPCs?
Sakura: Yes, that's right. To be more precise, they are perfectly reproduced from the Moon Cell's records of human history.
btw artoria can only be summoned with avalon on the mooncell, and it's the only time she was summoned with it, so that scaling is a no-no too
edit: more than long, I meant convoluted

It doesn't concern Top servant i have like show the screen in the OP.... And gilgamesh is not made by Moon cell it's litteraly part of the story of why moon cell wanted to seal him and why he not even a servant properly tell.


You should just really read the story.

And for arturia not being summonable with avalon is actually unsure, fsn/fz artutia is alive artoria who have lose avalon and not recorded in throne of heroes. We don't know if fgo artoria is the same case. So for what we know mooncell artotia is the only throne of heroes artoria (and anyways many other low 1-C/1-C weapon are recorded in throne of heroes too)

And anyways i'm totaly okay that it's too long.

 

[TypeOU]

I already agreed for gilgamesh (or was it in my lost comment?), but then again even if I didn't, it would just be a base CCC key

In doubt artoria shouldn't have avalon, especially since she hasn't shown it despite appearing multiple times as a servant

And the screens seems dubious with other sentences in extella, but then again extella isn't known for its consistency. How would that buff hs? Top servants still have the same stats beside artoria right? So that would only be a buff for her

 

[QuasiYuri]

And the screens seems dubious with other sentences in extella, but then again extella isn't known for its consistency. How would that buff hs? Top servants still have the same stats beside artoria right? So that would only be a buff for her

Both Extella and Extella Link directly stated that they come from the Throne of Heroes, with even a "they return to the Throne of Heroes" when some died, such as Iskandar.

That's also the entire point of Charlemagne/Karl thing.

Saying otherwise would be denying the events of two entire games.

 

[Regidian]

I already agreed for gilgamesh (or was it in my lost comment?), but then again even if I didn't, it would just be a base CCC key

In doubt artoria shouldn't have avalon, especially since she hasn't shown it despite appearing multiple times as a servant

And the screens seems dubious with other sentences in extella, but then again extella isn't known for its consistency. How would that buff hs? Top servants still have the same stats beside artoria right? So that would only be a buff for her

thecnically they could as they have potencial feat like iskandar telling he could 1v1 gilga if he hasn't had problem with his vessel. (some people wanted to up them too when i have make arturia crt but we decided to juste let artoria because she have the biggest proof)

 

[TypeOU]

Both Extella and Extella Link directly stated that they come from the Throne of Heroes, with even a "they return to the Throne of Heroes" when some died, such as Iskandar.

That's also the entire point of Charlemagne/Karl thing.

Saying otherwise would be denying the events of two entire games.

Yeah let's go with that. The whole every servant in the extraverse comes from the mooncell was apparently retconned in extella but then again it's not a first time.

thecnically they could as they have potencial feat like iskandar telling he could 1v1 gilga if he hasn't had problem with his vessel. (some people wanted to up them too when i have make arturia crt but we decided to juste let artoria because she have the biggest proof)

Any statement that a servant can beat gil with both being in similar states is bullshit, fight me

 

[Regidian]

Yeah let's go with that. The whole every servant in the extraverse comes from the mooncell was apparently retconned in extella but then again it's not a first time.


Any statement that a servant can beat gil with both being in similar states is bullshit, fight me

extra/extra ccc don't have top servant except the anomaly of gilga

 

[TypeOU]

extra/extra ccc don't have top servant except the anomaly of gilga

isn't gil in CCC like... the antithesis of what a top servant should be? He is basically the hole in the rules of the mooncell, while top servants are the finest of the finest chosen by the mooncell

 

[Regidian]

isn't gil in CCC like... the antithesis of what a top servant should be? He is basically the hole in the rules of the mooncell, while top servants are the finest of the finest chosen by the mooncell

We could like that, he not something that moon cell summon he not even a servant in the beginning.

But anyway do you still disagree with the OP?

 

[TypeOU]

I do but I'm too tired to argue so I'm just gonna keep disagreeing with them having the unsealed mythological mystic code on the basis of CCC gil not having it at first

 

[Regidian]

I do but I'm too tired to argue so I'm just gonna keep disagreeing with them having the unsealed mythological mystic code on the basis of CCC gil not having it at first

Okay

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Wouldn't the Heroic Spirit as recorded in the throne be a composite from many timelines that most likely fits multiple classes?

I feel that it would create too many different character than the Servants we see. Demon King Nobunaga is a composite, but is a distinct character from an individual Nobunaga in a specific timeline for example.
With the exception of Jeanne, it would be disproportionate effort to edit ~200 pages to account for ~200 background characters who lack a design. Though I would be fine if true Heroic Spirits were consolidated into a single page.

 

[Regidian]

Wouldn't the Heroic Spirit as recorded in the throne be a composite from many timelines that most likely fits multiple classes?

I feel that it would create too many different character than the Servants we see. Demon King Nobunaga is a composite, but is a distinct character from an individual Nobunaga in a specific timeline for example.
With the exception of Jeanne, it would be disproportionate effort to edit ~200 pages to account for ~200 background characters who lack a design. Though I would be fine if true Heroic Spirits were consolidated into a single page.

it's why i am thinking of just make something that work like a civilisation page, with all heroic spirit commun power/resistance + a descritpion of "the heroic spirit are have composue skill/np of their different servant self"

 

[Regidian]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Promestein @Dragonmasterxyz @Iapitus_The_Impaler @RegisNex1232 @Veloxt1r0kore @Solacis @Creaturemaster971 @ShadowWhoWalks @Zencha9 @Strife304 @TheUnshakableOne @Newendigo

Would you be willing to evaluate this please?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

So is the premisis supposed to be something like "the True body of a servant should be a separate Key from their Heroic Spirit Key?" as the "living version" of that servant is far more powerful than their "Servant/Heroic Spirit" form?

 

[Regidian]

So is the premisis supposed to be something like "the True body of a servant should be a separate Key from their Heroic Spirit Key?" as the "living version" of that servant is far more powerful than their "Servant/Heroic Spirit" form?

true body of servant =Heroic spirit in throne of heroes


We are talking about making a key/page for true body heroic spirit

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I don't necessarily see a problem with a Heroic Spirit key

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I don't see any problem imo with having 2 keys for their true selves and Heroic spirit form.

no as for AP in those keys that is a whole other can of worms lmao but shouldn't be that big of an issue right?

 

[Zencha9]

I don't necessarily see a problem with a Heroic Spirit key

same

 

[Newendigo]

My main issue is the idea of adding this purely theorical super version to several characters in the series, when apparently this form has barely (If ever) appeared or taken some importancy a single time in the series as a whole.

Like, I don't question much the info given by the op, but I don't knoe ific we should give a high tier key to hundreds of characters based off mostly implications.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I just find it interesting.

Hell a part of me almost wants to add it as an aspect of Servant Physiology. Though I guess that might not be entirely accurate.

 

[QuasiYuri]

My main issue is the idea of adding this purely theorical super version to several characters in the series, when apparently this form has barely (If ever) appeared or taken some importancy a single time in the series as a whole.

Like, I don't question much the info given by the op, but I don't knoe ific we should give a high tier key to hundreds of characters based off mostly implications.

It is something important to the entire series tho. Not a one-time thing.

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

I have a question. if this is accepted then what level is appropriate for heroic spirits AP?

they are mentioned as higher dimensional existence but have no feats of destroying or altering the throne of heroes (which at least 9D), so is the AP still 8D with 9D existence?