Heroic spirit form key, Nasuverse

[QuasiYuri]

they aren't emanation, they're copies of the data. If I have a computer, and I copy everything onto another computer, and the new computer has 1 tera of memory, would you say that the old computer must have at least 1 tera of memory? and your argument about king hassan is fallacious, you're assimilating "limits" and "limited" even though these 2 words are not related. Everyone has limits, except if you're trying to tell me that HS are tier 0? Because that's what having no limit means you know?

not emanation, copies.

Heroic Spirits are beings cut off from the time axis and can be summoned in any era, regardless of past and future. However, the only one that can summon the main body of the Heroic Spirits is the "world", and alas, humans can't summon the main body and can only summon their emanations, the Servants.

You are the one saying that servants are stronger than their true selves, despite everything saying the opposite, so the burden of proof is on you.

 

[Regidian]

she is buffed by her superior saint graph, it's called an example

not. The mythological mystic code is the origin of humanity sealed in every living being

they aren't emanation, they're copies of the data. If I have a computer, and I copy everything onto another computer, and the new computer has 1 tera of memory, would you say that the old computer must have at least 1 tera of memory? and your argument about king hassan is fallacious, you're assimilating "limits" and "limited" even though these 2 words are not related. Everyone has limits, except if you're trying to tell me that HS are tier 0? Because that's what having no limit means you know?

again, you're the one who gotta prove it. Until you can find an explanation as to why gilgamesh and arthur proto still have their np, it's not a limit of power compared to the HS.

and you managed to give the one wrong example. Divine spirits aren't weaker because their saint graph limit them, they're weaker because they're not gods, like how arcueid could have been at full power during extra but her master thought she was a god so she was nerfed

not emanation, copies.

you're the one with the burden of proof

She never tell to have a superior saint graph, and moon cell servant don't have saint graph they have cyber frame.

Tamamo got it and she not human you know? It's litteraly tell that it's come from the heroic spirit core.

"By entering the servant's virtual mind/body to access the Heroic spirit core directly, it is possible for the master to reach the heroic spirit's root that the Moon Cell had sealed away, and release the Mythological Mystic Code."

Their are emanation it's tell multiple time.
What fo you mean by being fallacious ? Hassan lose his power as a grand servant because the atk he use was to much for the grand saint graph.


Difference between Heroic Spirits and Servants
Heroic Spirits were Heroes who have left behind great feats in legends after death and become subjects of belief.
Normally, a Heroic Spirit is summoned by the world as power that protects humans.
The ones summoned by humans are Servants. However, Heroic Spirits cannot be controlled by humans, and to summon them, the Holy Grail or something with power of that sort must be used.
The Servant system of Fuyuki summons Heroic Spirits with the power of the Greater Grail. Heroic Spirits summoned as Servants are like "emanations", copies created using the information of the main body of the Heroic Servant.


Even the Holy Grail lacks the power to summon a true Heroic Spirit, so the process is facilitated by summoning them into one of seven vessels prepared beforehand. The Greater Grail makes a copy using information from the "main body" of the Heroic Spirit, an "emanation", that returns to them as information, in the form of a soul, upon the death of the Servant.



Only the World itself can summon the "main body" of Heroic Spirits, so humans can only summon emanations of the heroes, such as through the Servant system, even with something like a Holy Grail.


You litteraly merge multiple thing... I don't talk about god being reduced as divine spirit. But how it's explain in babylonia that when summoned as a servant or through pseudo servant, their saint graph is reduced to the one of a servant.



For Divine Spirits to be summoned as Servants, their Saint Graphs are reduced to a similar level as Servant, losing much of their power and Authority. In cases such as the Three Goddess Alliance in the Babylonia Singularity, the goddesses are able to be summoned with their Saint Graphs on the level of Divine Spirits due to unique circumstances.






Burden of proof? It's tell multiple time that servant are weaker, and it's like basic logic, the real ritual to invok servant and let them come to the world with their emanation is the grand servant summoning of Alaya because she the only that can summon them. Human tried to copied this and create the servant system we know, who is much weaker than the original one.

Regular Servants look like "cheap, convenient, multi-purpose familiars" in comparison.


+ Already show many thing above

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Honestly, this talk about how the true selves are weaker than their avatars who are said many times are nerfed because it can't be used the full power make my brain cells die, when you find at least one time in which is said that the Heroic Spirits are weaker then this talk can be continued.

 

[Mageman460]

Wait ... if even the Greater Grail can't summon a Heroic Spirit, would that make them 1-A then? Or was it agreed the Greater Grail was Unknown?

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Wait ... if even the Greater Grail can't summon a Heroic Spirit, would that make them 1-A then? Or was it agreed the Greater Grail was Unknown?

Unknown.

 

[Regidian]

Wait ... if even the Greater Grail can't summon a Heroic Spirit, would that make them 1-A then? Or was it agreed the Greater Grail was Unknown?

Greater grail is unknowm

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

There seem to be a some sort of connection between the Throne and the Root because of how the Greater Grail reach the Root, but it was left as Unknown.

 

[QuasiYuri]

There seem to be a some sort of connection between the Throne and the Root because of how the Greater Grail reach the Root, but it was left as Unknown.

The Throne's supposed to reside her iirc, so yeah.

 

[TypeOU]

Heroic Spirits are beings cut off from the time axis and can be summoned in any era, regardless of past and future. However, the only one that can summon the main body of the Heroic Spirits is the "world", and alas, humans can't summon the main body and can only summon their emanations, the Servants.

"Heroic Spirits summoned as Servants are like "emanations", copies created using the information of the main body of the Heroic Servant."

litterally from the same materials you quoted. A servant is the information of the HS put in the saint graph, not an emanation like the new gods are to DC, so no, the basic assumption that "an emanation being an inferior copy created by the original, the original is always stronger" doesn't apply here

You are the one saying that servants are stronger than their true selves, despite everything saying the opposite, so the burden of proof is on you.

"we have proof so the burden of proof is on you"-except that you don't, something that can be debunked by reading for 2 more seconds isn't a proof btw

She never tell to have a superior saint graph,

she literally rivals a mooncell powered servant

and moon cell servant don't have saint graph they have cyber frame.

semantics, they play the same role

Tamamo got it and she not human you know? It's litteraly tell that it's come from the heroic spirit core.

she's still part of humanity, because nasuverse. Wouldn't be an heroic spirit otherwise

"By entering the servant's virtual mind/body to access the Heroic spirit core directly, it is possible for the master to reach the heroic spirit's root that the Moon Cell had sealed away, and release the Mythological Mystic Code."

" To summarize, it is the power of the Origin that began the human genome. It is something all human beings hold within them.", this time, I just had to check the sentence before that

Their are emanation it's tell multiple time.

which aren't defined in the way that imply that an emanation is inferior to the original as said above, but rather meant to be a copy, nice. Meaning takes precedence over the word

What fo you mean by being fallacious ? Hassan lose his power as a grand servant because the atk he use was to much for the grand saint graph.

"So, by using all the might in that superb Saint Graph, the strike that “granted the concept of death” could be performed. And afterwards, King Hassan’s Saint Graph became that of a normal Servant’s."
no he didn't, he used his whole saint graph.

Difference between Heroic Spirits and Servants
Heroic Spirits were Heroes who have left behind great feats in legends after death and become subjects of belief.
Normally, a Heroic Spirit is summoned by the world as power that protects humans.
The ones summoned by humans are Servants. However, Heroic Spirits cannot be controlled by humans, and to summon them, the Holy Grail or something with power of that sort must be used.
The Servant system of Fuyuki summons Heroic Spirits with the power of the Greater Grail. Heroic Spirits summoned as Servants are like "emanations", copies created using the information of the main body of the Heroic Servant.


Even the Holy Grail lacks the power to summon a true Heroic Spirit, so the process is facilitated by summoning them into one of seven vessels prepared beforehand. The Greater Grail makes a copy using information from the "main body" of the Heroic Spirit, an "emanation", that returns to them as information, in the form of a soul, upon the death of the Servant.



Only the World itself can summon the "main body" of Heroic Spirits, so humans can only summon emanations of the heroes, such as through the Servant system, even with something like a Holy Grail.

when is it said that the HS is stronger? It only says that the process is facilitated with a vessel (saint graph)... and the information acquired from the war comes back after it?

You litteraly merge multiple thing... I don't talk about god being reduced as divine spirit. But how it's explain in babylonia that when summoned as a servant or through pseudo servant, their saint graph is reduced to the one of a servant.
For Divine Spirits to be summoned as Servants, their Saint Graphs are reduced to a similar level as Servant, losing much of their power and Authority. In cases such as the Three Goddess Alliance in the Babylonia Singularity, the goddesses are able to be summoned with their Saint Graphs on the level of Divine Spirits due to unique circumstances.

... that's litterally what I said above "just like arcueid was reduced from archetype earth to a god, gods are reduced from gods to servants, because that's what they are"

 

[QuasiYuri]

"Heroic Spirits summoned as Servants are like "emanations", copies created using the information of the main body of the Heroic Servant."

litterally from the same materials you quoted. A servant is the information of the HS put in the saint graph, not an emanation like the new gods are to DC, so no, the basic assumption that "an emanation being an inferior copy created by the original, the original is always stronger" doesn't apply here.

Except it litteraly is the same as an emenation like DC. Hell, they say and repeat that servants are mere shadows and coe all the time.

When Archer Gilgamesh is summoned, he's not a copy of the entire Heroic Spirit known under the name of Gilgamesh, he's a small, limited part of it.

Tbh I think anyone knowledgeable on this topic would be annoyed by how you are going against the obvious.

"we have proof so the burden of proof is on you"-except that you don't, something that can be debunked by reading for 2 more seconds isn't a proof btw

You didn't debunk anything. You're just refusing and inventing that now servants are perfect, non limited copies of the HS, which is obviously wrong.

So you have to prove that a limited, incomplete copy litteraly likened to a mere "emanation" or "shadow" of the Heroic Spirit is actually stronger than the HS.

So until you can prove that being a limited emanation means that you are stronger than your original self encompassing all of your forms, no amount of denying will matter (which shouldn't even exist to begin with, making this debate even more irrelevant since servants being stronger than their HS self obviously won't be accepted with no concrete evidences, should they even exist).

 

[TypeOU]

Except it litteraly is the same as an emenation like DC. Hell, they say and repeat that servants are mere shadows and coe all the time.

DC emanation don't have a saint graph
DC emanation are created with the power of the new god

both of these prevent the original>emanation rule to automatically apply

When Archer Gilgamesh is summoned, he's not a copy of the entire Heroic Spirit known under the name of Gilgamesh, he's a small, limited part of it.

this is totally unrelated to the power of the heroic spirit, it only means that he isn't as versatile.

Tbh I think anyone knowledgeable on this topic would be annoyed by how you are going against the obvious.

tbh anyone knowledgeable would just say that HS shouldn't get a key because of how many conflicting sources they are including some saying that they're only datas. we don't make datas fight. Other sources include "they're just their real self", and of course, "******* benienma can go to the throne like it's nothing"

You didn't debunk anything. You're just refusing and inventing that now servants are perfect, non limited copies of the HS, which is obviously wrong.

I didn't say that, I said that HS aren't automatically stronger, totally different thing

So you have to prove that a limited, incomplete copy litteraly likened to a mere "emanation" or "shadow" of the Heroic Spirit is actually stronger than the HS.

correction: an incomplete copy using a vessel that might or might not be stronger than their true body

So until you can prove that being a limited emanation means that you are stronger than your original self encompassing all of your forms, no amount of denying will matter (which shouldn't even exist to begin with, making this debate even more irrelevant since servants being stronger than their HS self obviously won't be accepted with no concrete evidences, should they even exist).

saint graph.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

The Throne's supposed to reside her iirc, so yeah.

It's complicate, some think it reside in the Root and there are things that point to something like that (for example the way in which the Greater Grail reach the Root), and some others think that no and there is also things that point to that (for example how Paracelsus is obsessed with the Root), it's because of this type of nature of the Throne and Heroic Spirits that I think if the key is done it should be Unknown, at least 1-C.

 

[Regidian]

"Heroic Spirits summoned as Servants are like "emanations", copies created using the information of the main body of the Heroic Servant."

litterally from the same materials you quoted. A servant is the information of the HS put in the saint graph, not an emanation like the new gods are to DC, so no, the basic assumption that "an emanation being an inferior copy created by the original, the original is always stronger" doesn't apply here

"we have proof so the burden of proof is on you"-except that you don't, something that can be debunked by reading for 2 more seconds isn't a proof btw

she literally rivals a mooncell powered servant

semantics, they play the same role

she's still part of humanity, because nasuverse. Wouldn't be an heroic spirit otherwise

" To summarize, it is the power of the Origin that began the human genome. It is something all human beings hold within them.", this time, I just had to check the sentence before that

which aren't defined in the way that imply that an emanation is inferior to the original as said above, but rather meant to be a copy, nice. Meaning takes precedence over the word

"So, by using all the might in that superb Saint Graph, the strike that “granted the concept of death” could be performed. And afterwards, King Hassan’s Saint Graph became that of a normal Servant’s."
no he didn't, he used his whole saint graph.

when is it said that the HS is stronger? It only says that the process is facilitated with a vessel (saint graph)... and the information acquired from the war comes back after it?


... that's litterally what I said above "just like arcueid was reduced from archetype earth to a god, gods are reduced from gods to servants, because that's what they are"

Who have compared them to god of DC here?
The assumption that of the definition of emanation doesn't apply here ? What do you want to even tell bruh you litteraly tell discard what mean emanation because i don't like it.



What debunk you have made pls?

Here we go Heroic spirit stated to be higher dimmensionnal being.

Stated to have ascend in a higher plane of existance.

Can be summoned only by the world and their are the powerful being.

Multiple servant stated that their are weaker than even when their are alive.

Even grand servant saint graph can't survive big atk of grand servant.

Saint graph not being the thing that rule their stat as it's the mana of master that do it (litteraly why arturia is weaker with shirou than with rin)

Being like Gilgamesh in the beginning of CCC don't have saint graal/cyber frame nor class and he is stronger than everyone, having the moon cell can't even do a thing.

Arturia not having saint graph in extella and she stronger that most of the people that had mythical mystic code.

Saint graph is already show to reduce the strengh of servant, servant morgan full asc is 1/3 weaker than her living counterparts, ibuki need to force her own saint graph to evolve to use her np, or divine spirit having their saint graph reduced to a normal servant when summoning as servant.


She don't have get better cyber frame she got the same cyber frame than all top servant.

So you don't even now than throne of heroes is not only for human bruh we have litteraly concept existing in or litteral god in.


Countered by non-human having it and that it doesn't change that they unlock in the Heroic spirit core. As the power of origin is not even a thing only for human we know the existance of this from knk.

""Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with."

"Even the Holy Grail lacks the power to summon a true Heroic Spirit"



With your fantastic logic, the saint graph don't have the power to summon a true Heroic spirit but have the power to create a vessel + a perfect copy of this true heroic spirit???? Don't you see a problem with that? Fck it's like telling a god don't have the power to create a planet but can create the planet and the sun.


Litteraly tel he used all the saint graph to make a simple ark that is a part of his NP. Meaning what? Meaning that grand saint graph is not enough.


But god are not reduced to servant their are reduced to divine spirit.


And when a divine spirit is summon as a servant their are even more weakened because the saint graph of servant is bad.

 

[Regidian]

+ you still don't have answered the fact that the real servant summoning is the grand servant summon,



That servant summoning made by human is a bad replica. That make servant being cheap to the use of human.



That only the World is tell to have the power to summon true body of heroic spirit and that even that it's miraculous.

 

[Regidian]

both of these prevent the original>emanation rule to automatically apply

this is totally unrelated to the power of the heroic spirit, it only means that he isn't as versatile.

tbh anyone knowledgeable would just say that HS shouldn't get a key because of how many conflicting sources they are including some saying that they're only datas. we don't make datas fight. Other sources include "they're just their real self", and of course, "******* benienma can go to the throne like it's nothing"

I didn't say that, I said that HS aren't automatically stronger, totally different thing

correction: an incomplete copy using a vessel that might or might not be stronger than their true body

saint graph.

Saint graph is the thing that restrict their strength.

This is related, the litteral first things we know about them is their just part of real and information heroic spirit soul and that their return to the real one after their death.

Heroic spirit are information, not data. What do you mean by their real selves? All description of true heroic spirit is = the death that have ascend in throne of heroes.

And many servant in their profile mention being able to live in the throne of heroes, Jeanne was litteraly able to leave by force the throne of heroes.

HS are litteraly to be higher dimmensionnal existance. Living in a higher Dimmensionnal place, having ascended in this place.

Find me this description for normal servant pls.


The vessel was never stated to be stronger most of the time it's tell to be weaker, it's still wait you to show one time when it's even mentionned to be stronger.


Saint graph is what limited them, tell by praticaly all servant in fgo, but i suppose that read is a thing to hard.

 

[Regidian]

But well it sure that vessel that are tell to be restrictif, to be cheap, multi function, or to not even being able to support their power in many case is supperior than their original selve that are described as higher dimensionnal Existing in a higher dimensionnal plane and being and the most powerful being to protect the world.


I'm sure the next time you will tell that divine spirit>their god selve?

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

the fact that a heroic spirit is mentioned as the strongest beings enough to prove that they are stronger than their avatar form (servant)


Pure Heroic Spirits, the "main body" in the Throne of Heroes, can only be summoned by the World, and summoning even one is considered to be a miraculous occurrence. Differing from the normal definition of familiars that can be likened to minor mascots unable to be stronger than their masters, Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with.



are mentioned as being of a higher existence, and they are categorized like divine spirits which have been accepted on this wiki as a higher dimensional existence


Heroic Spirits are beings of a higher existence, becoming categorically closer to Elementals than wraiths. Differing from how Elementals are "power" granted form using human imagination as a container, they are entirely woven from the ideals of people all throughout. They are freed from the constraints of time itself and removed from the ring of reincarnation, moved to the Throne of Heroes (英霊の座, Eirei no Za?), a place existing outside of both the World and the time axis. The Throne of Heroes is also occasionally referred to as the Ring of Deterrence (抑止の輪, Yokushi no Wa?), referring to how it is mainly used by the Counter Force. Those that become closer to the planet do not mix well with people, so they fall into the categories of Divine Spirits and Elementals.


So why do you think that servants who are just avatars are stronger than true form?
I still do not understand

 

[TypeOU]

Who have compared them to god of DC here?

the gods of DC are the most well known example of the regular meaning of emanation.

The assumption that of the definition of emanation doesn't apply here ? What do you want to even tell bruh you litteraly tell discard what mean emanation because i don't like it.

it's not an assumption, they litterally give the definition of emanation and it's not the same. "copies created using the information of the main body of the Heroic Servant.". If someone copies the information of my body, then multiply it by 100, do you really think it's not gonna be 100 times stronger because "it's a copy"? Because that's your logic as to why the HS has to be stronger than the servant

What debunk you have made pls?

Heroic Spirits are beings cut off from the time axis and can be summoned in any era, regardless of past and future. However, the only one that can summon the main body of the Heroic Spirits is the "world", and alas, humans can't summon the main body and can only summon their emanations, the Servants.

"Heroic Spirits summoned as Servants are like "emanations", copies created using the information of the main body of the Heroic Servant."


litterally from the same materials you quoted. A servant is the information of the HS put in the saint graph, not an emanation like the new gods are to DC, so no, the basic assumption that "an emanation being an inferior copy created by the original, the original is always stronger" doesn't apply here

that

Here we go Heroic spirit stated to be higher dimmensionnal being.

cool, so? 4D characters aren't 8D and especially not 9D

Stated to have ascend in a higher plane of existance.

irrelevant since, like someone said above

Can be summoned only by the world and their are the powerful being.

doesn't make them 8D and straight up untrue, shiki exists. they're the strongest familiars

Multiple servant stated that their are weaker than even when their are alive.

irrelevant

Even grand servant saint graph can't survive big atk of grand servant.

"So, by using all the might in that superb Saint Graph, the strike that “granted the concept of death” could be performed. And afterwards, King Hassan’s Saint Graph became that of a normal Servant’s."

Saint graph not being the thing that rule their stat as it's the mana of master that do it (litteraly why arturia is weaker with shirou than with rin)

both does, saber are known to be stronger than the other classes for a reason, angra is the weakest servant for a reason etc...

Being like Gilgamesh in the beginning of CCC don't have saint graal/cyber frame nor class and he is stronger than everyone, having the moon cell can't even do a thing.

that much does apply for heroic spirit gilgamesh, not the others.

Arturia not having saint graph in extella and she stronger that most of the people that had mythical mystic code.

she does have one, well a cyber frame anyway, she is basically the mooncell equivalent of a grand servant.

Saint graph is already show to reduce the strengh of servant, servant morgan full asc is 1/3 weaker than her living counterparts, ibuki need to force her own saint graph to evolve to use her np, or divine spirit having their saint graph reduced to a normal servant when summoning as servant.

again, those apply for morgan (not sure how good a x3 compared to a servant is gonna be tho). Ibuki and arjuna alter are gods so it's less an issue of power level and more of an issue of contradiction, heroic spirit and servant aren't gods.

She don't have get better cyber frame she got the same cyber frame than all top servant.

wrong, she is the mooncell ultimate detterent for a reason

So you don't even now than throne of heroes is not only for human bruh we have litteraly concept existing in or litteral god in.

like who? gods are registered by chaldea's F.A.T.E system

Countered by non-human having it and that it doesn't change that they unlock in the Heroic spirit core. As the power of origin is not even a thing only for human we know the existance of this from knk.

you're confusing having an origin with the origin of all humans, the latter of which is implied to be specifically gilgamesh's origin. Anyway no matter how twisted it might be, they're all humans. Demi gods are humans, onis are humans, tamamo is an human. Of course there are multiple stades. "humans" servants are those that could exist in our world, with no superpower or whatever (well some does have superpower, but it's more like they're not known for being superhumans). "human" being are those of our species. But "human" as a whole is very large in the nasuverse and encompasses pretty much everything that could be registered in the throne of heroes

""Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with."

again, shiki void exist, it's supposed to be familiars, and the mages inability is unrelated to their strength but rather, the fact that servants aren't encompassed by magecraft or the existing true magic

"Even the Holy Grail lacks the power to summon a true Heroic Spirit"

same here, altho the holy grail can summon servants I guess

With your fantastic logic, the saint graph don't have the power to summon a true Heroic spirit but have the power to create a vessel + a perfect copy of this true heroic spirit???? Don't you see a problem with that? Fck it's like telling a god don't have the power to create a planet but can create the planet and the sun.

first, still not a perfect copy. Second, it's like saying that artoria can't create a country busting tsunami but can destroy a 6D~8D being. Just because something is not part of your kit doesn't necessarily means everything you can do is weaker than that, it would be stupid

Litteraly tel he used all the saint graph to make a simple ark that is a part of his NP. Meaning what? Meaning that grand saint graph is not enough.

wtf? no? king hassan can't impose the concept of death, he is supposed to impose death, that's it, it's not supposed to work against immortals

But god are not reduced to servant their are reduced to divine spirit.

??? no? gods at chaldea are servants. And I'm supposed to be the unknowledgeable one?

And when a divine spirit is summon as a servant their are even more weakened because the saint graph of servant is bad.

because they're not a god, it's a nerf in status that result in a nerf of power, not in power directly

+ you still don't have answered the fact that the real servant summoning is the grand servant summon,

I fail to see how that's relevant, it only means that grand>normal servant

That only the World is tell to have the power to summon true body of heroic spirit and that even that it's miraculous.

grand servants aren't the real body. and again, just because you can't do something doesn't make you weaker than it, or everyone in our world would be 11B for not being able to affect a 0D structure with our nonexistent telekinesis

 

[TypeOU]

the fact that a heroic spirit is mentioned as the strongest beings enough to prove that they are stronger than their avatar form (servant)


Pure Heroic Spirits, the "main body" in the Throne of Heroes, can only be summoned by the World, and summoning even one is considered to be a miraculous occurrence. Differing from the normal definition of familiars that can be likened to minor mascots unable to be stronger than their masters, Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with.



are mentioned as being of a higher existence, and they are categorized like divine spirits which have been accepted on this wiki as a higher dimensional existence


Heroic Spirits are beings of a higher existence, becoming categorically closer to Elementals than wraiths. Differing from how Elementals are "power" granted form using human imagination as a container, they are entirely woven from the ideals of people all throughout. They are freed from the constraints of time itself and removed from the ring of reincarnation, moved to the Throne of Heroes (英霊の座, Eirei no Za?), a place existing outside of both the World and the time axis. The Throne of Heroes is also occasionally referred to as the Ring of Deterrence (抑止の輪, Yokushi no Wa?), referring to how it is mainly used by the Counter Force. Those that become closer to the planet do not mix well with people, so they fall into the categories of Divine Spirits and Elementals.


So why do you think that servants who are just avatars are stronger than true form?
I still do not understand

just check out my other answer, he basically said the same things

 

[PsychoWarper]

Have we ever actually seen these True Forms do anything? Like I know they exist but I can’t remember a time when one of them actually werent just chilling in the throne and actually doing shit.

Could be wrong tho.

 

[Mageman460]

The only time we've seen a Heroic Spirit was Jeanne d'Arc iirc.

Actually ... are they heroic spirits in the Final Singularity or still just servants? They seem more powerful as they can take down the infinitely regenerating Demon God Pillars. Then again .. there are people there that wouldn't be Heroic Spirits.

 

[Regidian]

the gods of DC are the most well known example of the regular meaning of emanation.

it's not an assumption, they litterally give the definition of emanation and it's not the same. "copies created using the information of the main body of the Heroic Servant.". If someone copies the information of my body, then multiply it by 100, do you really think it's not gonna be 100 times stronger because "it's a copy"? Because that's your logic as to why the HS has to be stronger than the servant




that

cool, so? 4D characters aren't 8D and especially not 9D

irrelevant since, like someone said above

doesn't make them 8D and straight up untrue, shiki exists. they're the strongest familiars

irrelevant

"So, by using all the might in that superb Saint Graph, the strike that “granted the concept of death” could be performed. And afterwards, King Hassan’s Saint Graph became that of a normal Servant’s."

both does, saber are known to be stronger than the other classes for a reason, angra is the weakest servant for a reason etc...

that much does apply for heroic spirit gilgamesh, not the others.

she does have one, well a cyber frame anyway, she is basically the mooncell equivalent of a grand servant.

again, those apply for morgan (not sure how good a x3 compared to a servant is gonna be tho). Ibuki and arjuna alter are gods so it's less an issue of power level and more of an issue of contradiction, heroic spirit and servant aren't gods.

wrong, she is the mooncell ultimate detterent for a reason

like who? gods are registered by chaldea's F.A.T.E system

you're confusing having an origin with the origin of all humans, the latter of which is implied to be specifically gilgamesh's origin. Anyway no matter how twisted it might be, they're all humans. Demi gods are humans, onis are humans, tamamo is an human. Of course there are multiple stades. "humans" servants are those that could exist in our world, with no superpower or whatever (well some does have superpower, but it's more like they're not known for being superhumans). "human" being are those of our species. But "human" as a whole is very large in the nasuverse and encompasses pretty much everything that could be registered in the throne of heroes

again, shiki void exist, it's supposed to be familiars, and the mages inability is unrelated to their strength but rather, the fact that servants aren't encompassed by magecraft or the existing true magic

same here, altho the holy grail can summon servants I guess

first, still not a perfect copy. Second, it's like saying that artoria can't create a country busting tsunami but can destroy a 6D~8D being. Just because something is not part of your kit doesn't necessarily means everything you can do is weaker than that, it would be stupid

wtf? no? king hassan can't impose the concept of death, he is supposed to impose death, that's it, it's not supposed to work against immortals

??? no? gods at chaldea are servants. And I'm supposed to be the unknowledgeable one?

because they're not a god, it's a nerf in status that result in a nerf of power, not in power directly

I fail to see how that's relevant, it only means that grand>normal servant

grand servants aren't the real body. and again, just because you can't do something doesn't make you weaker than it, or everyone in our world would be 11B for not being able to affect a 0D structure with our nonexistent telekinesis

Copy created the information of the heroic spirit. We give before this info if they don't have enough power to summon a true heroic spirit why which ******* logic they will have enough power to create perfect copy and empowered them??????????

"Even the Holy Grail lacks the power to summon a true Heroic Spirit".


The logic is not only that their servant is an avatar, but you only focus in that thing si ce you can't even contradict the rest.


By your same logic no reason for the World to even able to summon the real heroic spirit and be considered as a miracle if servant was stronger than them.

"However, the only one that can summon the main body of the Heroic Spirits is the "world", and alas, humans can't summon the main body."


Their are stated to be a higher dimmensionnal being from throne of heroes that exist above Moon cell and outside the World. ( What is the tier of Moon cell? Oh magic it's 8D).


He tell it's was irrevelant if higher dimmension are not confirmed to be infinite difference in power or reality/fiction, which it is and accepted in Vsb, if you want tot complain make a CRT about how higher dimmension are not higher dimension in nasuverse. You just don't chose which is and which are nor bruh.


Servant are familiar not Heroic spirit cool to not even being able to read thing ( you surely the only one in the world that tell that being not be able to be summoned by anyone are familiar).

Void shiki is not a being, she the avatar of [ ]. It's like telling archetype earth is not archetype earth because void shiki is from earth.


In what having servant themself tell to be weaker is irrelevant? Bruh

You just show i have reason one atk is enough to make a grand servant saint graph becoming a normal one, wow real boost we see here can't even withstand an atk.

Saber is tell to be the stronger because the people in not the class bruh, mata hari as a saber will not become suddenly stronger.

Angra is the weakest because his concept as a being not because saint graph.



She not the equivalent of grand servant in Moon cell, she have the same cyber frame than other Top servant stop inventing thing you can't even proof pls.

It an example and was stated by pretty much everyone to the point that only stheno and her sister is tell to be stronger than before as a living but well like Always it's false no?


Whereas other Servants may be constrained and reduced in ability by their class containers, Stheno actually becomes stronger when summoned as Assassin, simply because even the class container's base abilities are greater than hers.


She was never stated to be the ultimate rempart of moon cell stop inventing thing pls.


God are registered by C.H.A.L.D.E.A, yeah and i suppose that quirinus and other god was registered before even encounter chaldea too?

Gods that have died before reduction into Divine Spirits could presumably be recorded into the Throne of Heroes. It is also possible for demi-gods to ascend to full godhood like Heracles, who can be summoned from the Throne of Heroes with his complete Divinity.



Fgo litteraly tell the contrary every, we have litteraly a tag for all non human, if you play fgo you should know bruh (and don't even try to tell that it's only gameplay mechanics as it's false).

Anyways Tamamo is the burei of a god she have nothing to do with human , stop trying to change lore for your reasoning.


Again shiki void is not a being by herself, and Heroic spirit are not familiar, the familiar are servant, tell 200 time by now is begin to get annlying.

Their are being close to Elemental and divine spirit in nature nothing to do with familiar.


What same here? Nobody can summon shiki so don't have any reasoning. Yes it's the holy grail that summon servant but don't have power to summon true heroic spirit.


It's not being not part of the weak but not being able to have the goof kit but their don't have the strengh to do it. And sorry but summon a heroic spirit and summon a servant is the same thing just not same scale tell 10 time. Oh and for artotia it's a thing called the difference between AP and DC so not even a good exemple lol


King hassan can impose the concept of death, if he wasn't able no matter mana he had he would never be able simple logic.


You don't even understand what i have send and mean bruh. I tell you that god being reduced because becoming a servant is what happen to heroic spirit.

It's you the guy that tell that having servant saint graph boost.

And arjuna alter and ibuki are Divine spirit not god (not knowing that when it's the main part of lb4 story....)

that's litterally what I said above "just like arcueid was reduced from archetype earth to a god, gods are reduced from gods to servants, because that's what they are"


But are you not bekng able to read thing? This have nothing to do with God, can't you even read what i send ???

Divine spirit summoned as a servant got their divine spirit saint graph reduced. 0 ******* mention of god, and **** even quirinis-romulus got reduced as a simple servant when he was a full god.


For Divine Spirits to be summoned as Servants, their Saint Graphs are reduced to a similar level as Servant, losing much of their power and Authority. In cases such as the Three Goddess Alliance in the Babylonia Singularity, the goddesses are able to be summoned with their Saint Graphs on the level of Divine Spirits due to unique circumstances.


It's mean that that in base their was only summoned as grand servant, them being servant so weaker is only because of human summoning.

Don't have tell grand servant are real body read pls.

It does in this case, if only the world have the power to summon the heroic spirit a'd that it's stated multiple time that, the grail don't have enough power to summon them or that their above magecraft is not only for your eyes.



But anyways you own reasoning stop when you tell that you acknowledge being higher dimmensionnal being= at least 4D since that will make all of them above 90% of servant. + One you talk about me assuming thing when you own reasoning yiu have created praticaly lore because if your reasoning that litteraly contradict the real lore.


So like i tell and other tol before assuming thing like "oh the holy grail could boost their power, or oh he tell to not be strong enough because it's not in his kit" or that in nasuverse praticaly everything is "human" when we know the contrary. Find the proof of what yiu tell because here you create a story for making heroic spirit weaker than the servant who are weaker than the living self for lost people when we already have proof that it's false

 

[Regidian]

Have we ever actually seen these True Forms do anything? Like I know they exist but I can’t remember a time when one of them actually werent just chilling in the throne and actually doing shit.

Could be wrong tho.

We never no, like i tell only the World could ever summoning them and it's would be miraculous event. But multiple material and Jeanne in the end of Apo show that they are not just information

 

[Regidian]

The only time we've seen a Heroic Spirit was Jeanne d'Arc iirc.

Actually ... are they heroic spirits in the Final Singularity or still just servants? They seem more powerful as they can take down the infinitely regenerating Demon God Pillars. Then again .. there are people there that wouldn't be Heroic Spirits.

No just servant, servant was able to beat Demon God pillar since the beginning

 

[Regidian]

But anyways i would not answer anymore to Type OU anymore, the guy litteraly try to create lore or just change them, to his own convenience

And he accept that higher dimmension exist in nasu but he don't accept that the throne of heroes is one bruh

 

[Regidian]

Just his logic made my day. Tell that a thing called not being strong enough (when it's called an omnipotent whish thing in first) to summon a true heroic spirit is powerful enough to create container + avatar + boost them is amusing even more when he qualifies the two as different Kit when the two are summoning just one is about summoning the true body (thing he can't do since no strong enough) and the other is summoning a emanation of the true body (with his logic would be stronger than the true body when in first he doesn't enough strong to summon it).



Same with all heroic spirit are human, like nursery rhymes is a conceptuel reality marble, very human this thing

 

[Mageman460]

The Throne is Higher Dimensional Existence, but I don't see the proof of it being even higher dimensional than the Moon Cell or Avalon.

 

[Regidian]

The Throne is Higher Dimensional Existence, but I don't see the proof of it being even higher dimensional than the Moon Cell or Avalon.

Avalon was recreated in throne of heroes ( summoned arturia have imagine of it in moon cell).

Being stronger than moon cell (arturia/gil) came from the throne of heroes.

And venus nero when using the power of regalia, sword of Mars and moon cell tell about channeling to a higher plane of existance (she already 6/8D here) and she mention the summoning of a heroic spirit. Before deciding to summon a god.


And moon cell is tell to have be a limited version of throne of heroes with his own data from the world he see (he don't see all Parralle world in nasuverse).

But anyways even without being above moon cell it's still need to be at least same Dimmension.

 

[Regidian]

Anyways i don't want to have an eternal debate, since we do have of our argument here.


What are you vote here guy?


Agree: QuasiYuri, Tam0n3m, KingofHeroes


Disagree: TypeOU


Neutral: Expectro2000xxx (if a key is made should be unknow, at least 1-C)

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I'm neutral in the creation of the key, but again, if is made it should be Unknown, at least 1-C.

 

[Regidian]

I'm neutral in the creation of the key, but again, if is made it should be Unknown, at least 1-C.

I think i will more do a "civilization page" for heroic spirit if accepted, they all gain the same ability so it's will be lore easier.

But i can accept unknow at least 1-C(which 1-C ?)

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

But i can accept unknow at least 1-C(which 1-C ?)

Both? They could be 7D/9D depending of what side is used and since 1-C cover both then don't matter, when talking about them it's just needed to clarify that, maybe can be even noted at the end of the page?

I think i will more do a "civilization page" for heroic spirit if accepted, they all gain the same ability so it's will be lore easier.

While it would be more easier I think it's a bit of a shame that each of them don't have their own Heroic Spirit key, though I'm not gonna complain because it indeed would be to much work.

 

[Regidian]

Both? They could be 7D/9D depending of what side is used and since 1-C cover both then don't matter, when talking about them it's just needed to clarify that, maybe can be even noted at the end of the page?

While it would be more easier I think it's a bit of a shame that each of them don't have their own Heroic Spirit key, though I'm not gonna complain because it indeed would be to much work.

Okay.
And way i mean heroic spirit don't have limitation in skill/np/class so same servant with different class (like saber and archer arturia) are the same heroic spirit and so need a "composite version" of their skill, Ill be weird to have 7 page of Arturia having the same last key

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

Ill be weird to have 7 page of Arturia having the same last key

Fair enough, though in cases like that maybe another page named Heroic Spirit could solve the problem? Anyways, to much work so I'm not gonna continue talking about it.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Fair enough, though in cases like that maybe another page named Heroic Spirit could solve the problem? Anyways, to much work so I'm not gonna continue talking about it.

Was thinking the same. Maybe we would have a thing like "Heroic Spirit (name of the servant)" even if I hate how profiles title are written.

 

[Regidian]

Was thinking the same. Maybe we would have a thing like "Heroic Spirit (name of the servant)" even if I hate how profiles title are written.

We should too surely ask other staff to come no?

 

[TypeOU]

you know what, I just lost my whole comment and I don't have the time to rewrite it, also this debate is becoming way too long so I'm just gonna keep it on one point
heroic spirits can't scale to anything in the extraverse because mooncell servants are copies purely created by the mooncell analysis of earth and not actually related to the throne
Taiga: Is it correct to say that Moon Cell Servants aren't summoned from the counter force, but are instead reproduced copies like NPCs?
Sakura: Yes, that's right. To be more precise, they are perfectly reproduced from the Moon Cell's records of human history.
btw artoria can only be summoned with avalon on the mooncell, and it's the only time she was summoned with it, so that scaling is a no-no too
edit: more than long, I meant convoluted

 

[Regidian]

you know what, I just lost my whole comment and I don't have the time to rewrite it, also this debate is becoming way too long so I'm just gonna keep it on one point
heroic spirits can't scale to anything in the extraverse because mooncell servants are copies purely created by the mooncell analysis of earth and not actually related to the throne
Taiga: Is it correct to say that Moon Cell Servants aren't summoned from the counter force, but are instead reproduced copies like NPCs?
Sakura: Yes, that's right. To be more precise, they are perfectly reproduced from the Moon Cell's records of human history.
btw artoria can only be summoned with avalon on the mooncell, and it's the only time she was summoned with it, so that scaling is a no-no too
edit: more than long, I meant convoluted

It doesn't concern Top servant i have like show the screen in the OP.... And gilgamesh is not made by Moon cell it's litteraly part of the story of why moon cell wanted to seal him and why he not even a servant properly tell.


You should just really read the story.

And for arturia not being summonable with avalon is actually unsure, fsn/fz artutia is alive artoria who have lose avalon and not recorded in throne of heroes. We don't know if fgo artoria is the same case. So for what we know mooncell artotia is the only throne of heroes artoria (and anyways many other low 1-C/1-C weapon are recorded in throne of heroes too)

And anyways i'm totaly okay that it's too long.

 

[TypeOU]

I already agreed for gilgamesh (or was it in my lost comment?), but then again even if I didn't, it would just be a base CCC key

In doubt artoria shouldn't have avalon, especially since she hasn't shown it despite appearing multiple times as a servant

And the screens seems dubious with other sentences in extella, but then again extella isn't known for its consistency. How would that buff hs? Top servants still have the same stats beside artoria right? So that would only be a buff for her

 

[QuasiYuri]

And the screens seems dubious with other sentences in extella, but then again extella isn't known for its consistency. How would that buff hs? Top servants still have the same stats beside artoria right? So that would only be a buff for her

Both Extella and Extella Link directly stated that they come from the Throne of Heroes, with even a "they return to the Throne of Heroes" when some died, such as Iskandar.

That's also the entire point of Charlemagne/Karl thing.

Saying otherwise would be denying the events of two entire games.