Heroic spirit form key, Nasuverse

[Regidian]

I already agreed for gilgamesh (or was it in my lost comment?), but then again even if I didn't, it would just be a base CCC key

In doubt artoria shouldn't have avalon, especially since she hasn't shown it despite appearing multiple times as a servant

And the screens seems dubious with other sentences in extella, but then again extella isn't known for its consistency. How would that buff hs? Top servants still have the same stats beside artoria right? So that would only be a buff for her

thecnically they could as they have potencial feat like iskandar telling he could 1v1 gilga if he hasn't had problem with his vessel. (some people wanted to up them too when i have make arturia crt but we decided to juste let artoria because she have the biggest proof)

 

[TypeOU]

Both Extella and Extella Link directly stated that they come from the Throne of Heroes, with even a "they return to the Throne of Heroes" when some died, such as Iskandar.

That's also the entire point of Charlemagne/Karl thing.

Saying otherwise would be denying the events of two entire games.

Yeah let's go with that. The whole every servant in the extraverse comes from the mooncell was apparently retconned in extella but then again it's not a first time.

thecnically they could as they have potencial feat like iskandar telling he could 1v1 gilga if he hasn't had problem with his vessel. (some people wanted to up them too when i have make arturia crt but we decided to juste let artoria because she have the biggest proof)

Any statement that a servant can beat gil with both being in similar states is bullshit, fight me

 

[Regidian]

Yeah let's go with that. The whole every servant in the extraverse comes from the mooncell was apparently retconned in extella but then again it's not a first time.


Any statement that a servant can beat gil with both being in similar states is bullshit, fight me

extra/extra ccc don't have top servant except the anomaly of gilga

 

[TypeOU]

extra/extra ccc don't have top servant except the anomaly of gilga

isn't gil in CCC like... the antithesis of what a top servant should be? He is basically the hole in the rules of the mooncell, while top servants are the finest of the finest chosen by the mooncell

 

[Regidian]

isn't gil in CCC like... the antithesis of what a top servant should be? He is basically the hole in the rules of the mooncell, while top servants are the finest of the finest chosen by the mooncell

We could like that, he not something that moon cell summon he not even a servant in the beginning.

But anyway do you still disagree with the OP?

 

[TypeOU]

I do but I'm too tired to argue so I'm just gonna keep disagreeing with them having the unsealed mythological mystic code on the basis of CCC gil not having it at first

 

[Regidian]

I do but I'm too tired to argue so I'm just gonna keep disagreeing with them having the unsealed mythological mystic code on the basis of CCC gil not having it at first

Okay

 

[ShadowWhoWalks]

Wouldn't the Heroic Spirit as recorded in the throne be a composite from many timelines that most likely fits multiple classes?

I feel that it would create too many different character than the Servants we see. Demon King Nobunaga is a composite, but is a distinct character from an individual Nobunaga in a specific timeline for example.
With the exception of Jeanne, it would be disproportionate effort to edit ~200 pages to account for ~200 background characters who lack a design. Though I would be fine if true Heroic Spirits were consolidated into a single page.

 

[Regidian]

Wouldn't the Heroic Spirit as recorded in the throne be a composite from many timelines that most likely fits multiple classes?

I feel that it would create too many different character than the Servants we see. Demon King Nobunaga is a composite, but is a distinct character from an individual Nobunaga in a specific timeline for example.
With the exception of Jeanne, it would be disproportionate effort to edit ~200 pages to account for ~200 background characters who lack a design. Though I would be fine if true Heroic Spirits were consolidated into a single page.

it's why i am thinking of just make something that work like a civilisation page, with all heroic spirit commun power/resistance + a descritpion of "the heroic spirit are have composue skill/np of their different servant self"

 

[Regidian]

bump

 

[Antvasima]

@Promestein @Dragonmasterxyz @Iapitus_The_Impaler @RegisNex1232 @Veloxt1r0kore @Solacis @Creaturemaster971 @ShadowWhoWalks @Zencha9 @Strife304 @TheUnshakableOne @Newendigo

Would you be willing to evaluate this please?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

So is the premisis supposed to be something like "the True body of a servant should be a separate Key from their Heroic Spirit Key?" as the "living version" of that servant is far more powerful than their "Servant/Heroic Spirit" form?

 

[Regidian]

So is the premisis supposed to be something like "the True body of a servant should be a separate Key from their Heroic Spirit Key?" as the "living version" of that servant is far more powerful than their "Servant/Heroic Spirit" form?

true body of servant =Heroic spirit in throne of heroes


We are talking about making a key/page for true body heroic spirit

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I don't necessarily see a problem with a Heroic Spirit key

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I don't see any problem imo with having 2 keys for their true selves and Heroic spirit form.

no as for AP in those keys that is a whole other can of worms lmao but shouldn't be that big of an issue right?

 

[Zencha9]

I don't necessarily see a problem with a Heroic Spirit key

same

 

[Newendigo]

My main issue is the idea of adding this purely theorical super version to several characters in the series, when apparently this form has barely (If ever) appeared or taken some importancy a single time in the series as a whole.

Like, I don't question much the info given by the op, but I don't knoe ific we should give a high tier key to hundreds of characters based off mostly implications.

 

[Creaturemaster971]

I just find it interesting.

Hell a part of me almost wants to add it as an aspect of Servant Physiology. Though I guess that might not be entirely accurate.

 

[QuasiYuri]

My main issue is the idea of adding this purely theorical super version to several characters in the series, when apparently this form has barely (If ever) appeared or taken some importancy a single time in the series as a whole.

Like, I don't question much the info given by the op, but I don't knoe ific we should give a high tier key to hundreds of characters based off mostly implications.

It is something important to the entire series tho. Not a one-time thing.

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

I have a question. if this is accepted then what level is appropriate for heroic spirits AP?

they are mentioned as higher dimensional existence but have no feats of destroying or altering the throne of heroes (which at least 9D), so is the AP still 8D with 9D existence?

 

[Regidian]

I have a question. if this is accepted then what level is appropriate for heroic spirits AP?

they are mentioned as higher dimensional existence but have no feats of destroying or altering the throne of heroes (which at least 9D), so is the AP still 8D with 9D existence?

Existing in a 9D that is accepted as a higher dimmension, should grant them 9D HDE normaly.

 

[Antvasima]

My main issue is the idea of adding this purely theorical super version to several characters in the series, when apparently this form has barely (If ever) appeared or taken some importancy a single time in the series as a whole.

Like, I don't question much the info given by the op, but I don't knoe ific we should give a high tier key to hundreds of characters based off mostly implications.

This is a valid point.

 

[Zencha9]

This is a valid point.

yuri covered that here

It is something important to the entire series tho. Not a one-time thing.

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Existing in a 9D that is accepted as a higher dimmension, should grant them 9D HDE normaly.

What does it mean?

I saw in the tiering system faq that higher dimensional existences are not always infinetely stronger than lower dimensional existences, they must have the feats of destroying, create or altering

 

[Regidian]

What does it mean?

I saw in the tiering system faq that higher dimensional existences are not always infinetely stronger than lower dimensional existences, they must have the feats of destroying, create or altering

In fate higher dimmension have R/F layer it was already show in another crt. You don't need feat fo destroying/creating or altering higher dimmension to be one.

 

[Antvasima]

yuri covered that here

Okay. Never mind then.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Something Something some living servants (when they were alive before becoming a heroic spirit) fought 1-C gods whom have 1-C Hax and Durability Something Something their weapons killed them. Random example off the top of my head

Gae bolg (God killing spear) and Scathach for example

 

[Regidian]

Something Something some living servants (when they were alive before becoming a heroic spirit) fought 1-C gods whom have 1-C Hax and Durability Something Something their weapons killed them. Random example off the top of my head

Gae bolg (God killing spear) and Scathach for example

But we don't talk about alive servant before becoming heroic spirit...

We just talk about created a page for Heroic spirit from throne of heroes.

Living servant have way too much different key (some are just normal human when they was alive)

 

[Regidian]

Okay. Never mind then.

Do we need more agreement?

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure. Can you write a list of who here that agree with what please?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

But we don't talk about alive servant before becoming heroic spirit...

We just talk about created a page for Heroic spirit from throne of heroes.

Living servant have way too much different key (some are just normal human when they was alive)

I believe I may have misunderstood something here then and I apologize about that.

If that's the case, then I need to change my stance. I'm going to have to disagree with this CRT.. Simply existing in a higher realm doesn't warrant a higher tier.

At best this is a sort of Type 9 immortality (possibly even some form type 3 acausality?) That is non-combat applicable

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for the evaluation.

 

[Regidian]

I believe I may have misunderstood something here then and I apologize about that.

If that's the case, then I need to change my stance. I'm going to have to disagree with this CRT.. Simply existing in a higher realm doesn't warrant a higher tier.

At best this is a sort of Type 9 immortality (possibly even some form type 3 acausality?) That is non-combat applicable

The OP is not just about existing in a higher realm but okay

 

[Regidian]

I am not sure. Can you write a list of who here that agree with what please?

Agree: YuriAkuto Tam0n3m, KingofHeroes, Creaturemaster971, Zencha9


Neutral: Expectro2000xxx

Disagree: TypeOU, TheUnshakableOne (even tho he doesn't seem to "understand"? much what is tell on the OP)

 

[Regidian]

Some people don't have tell if they have agree or not so i don't have add them

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Yuri is usually reliable, but I would prefer more staff input. Can you write an easy to understand explanation of what you want to do here please, so I can send a notification to some of them?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I am sorry but where in the OP does it indicate that the being in the the Throne is manipulating, affecting, destroying a higher dimensional realm? Using a one off statement of "their existence is closer to the planet" isn't going to cut it for me imo. But that's my opinion.

Edit:

Is it this statement? Seems to be the closest one to what is being proposed.

"Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with. Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft. Magi can perform rituals to borrow their power to mimic them, but cannot summon actual Heroic Spirits themselves"

Edit2: after reading everything over again three times in the OP. Im still not convinced that anything here is indicative of 6/7/8/9D AP.

Sounds like their just existing kn the Throne ajd true magic users have trouble reaching the Throne.

 

[Regidian]

Okay. Yuri is usually reliable, but I would prefer more staff input. Can you write an easy to understand explanation of what you want tl do here please, so I can send a notifcation to some of them?

Yeah.



The point is to make the page for Heroic spirit true body(the much easier thing would be to do a civilization page).

All thing i tell here are tell in the OP and in the debate i had with TypeOU, can resend them if needed

The heroic spirit are heroes who ascended in a higher plane of existance after their death(throne of heroes) their are multiple time called higher dimensionnal being.


Grand servant(fgo) and Top servant(fate extella) are part of their avatar made from their emanations, having many limitation in power, skill and be limited to one class compared to the true body. (Grand servant are low 1-C to 1-C here, same for arturia top servant).

Heroic spirit are classified as the strongest being that exist, to the point that even the 5 magician (user of true magie, zeltrech who ks user of second magi is low 1-C to 1-C here too), would never be able to make a contract with them. Their existance is beyond any magi and Magecraft.

Only the World is capable of summoning them and even that it's considered to be a miraculous occurence, the holy grail too is not strong enough to summon the main body of a true heroic spirit.

The throne of heroes being a plane of existance higher above Moon cell were Moon cell is only capable of doing an imitation of what he do.

Nero mentionning the possibility of summoning a heroic spirit when she use regalia (authority and power of moon cell), sword of mars to create a chanel to higher plane (she was already low 1-C/1-C here) to summon someone. She just decided to summon a god after.

All of this should mean that heroic spirit are at least above grand and character like gilga or artutia from extra serie because their are only avatar of them with many limitation if not a dimmension above like throne of heroes bevause their are resident of this dimmmension.

Conclusion :

Heroic spirit as a whole should be 7D to 9D. As they exist in the higher plane of existance, are considered as higher dimmension being from their avatar even the grand servant and top servant and that nor the holy grail, nor the true magic user can summon them + called the most powerful being, and that only the world could be able to summon them. And existing in a higher plane than moon cell.

Heroic spirit will get resistance to all magecraft.

Should get acausality type 4 (their are separated from the concept of time not getting affected by any change in causality or by the system of the world)

Should get HDE


And they are the composite version of their different servant version as their not limited in their skill/class (except if a servant is specifically tell to be registered in the throne as a different being)

 

[Regidian]

I am sorry but where in the OP does it indicate that the being in the the Throne is manipulating, affecting, destroying a higher dimensional realm? Using a one off statement of "their existence is closer to the planet" isn't going to cut it for me imo. But that's my opinion.

Edit:

Is it this statement? Seems to be the closest one to what is being proposed.

"Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with. Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft. Magi can perform rituals to borrow their power to mimic them, but cannot summon actual Heroic Spirits themselves"

Edit2: after reading everything over again three times in the OP. Im still not convinced that anything here is indicative of 6/7/8/9D AP.

Sounds like their just existing kn the Throne ajd true magic users have trouble reaching the Throne.

I have made an easy understanble essai just read it and ask thing if needed pls, i have like already answer to your thing in my debate with Type OU... (And the text doesn't even mention throne of heroes don't understand how you can corrolate being called the strongest being thay they can even dream of summoning to "they have trouble reaching the throne", not like they will not tell that they can mimic some of their power if they had trouble reaching the throne)

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The heroic spirit are heroes who ascended in a higher plane of existance after their death(throne of heroes) their are multiple time called higher dimensionnal being.

Idk about this one. Take gilgamesh for example. Fighting Low 1-C/1-C Gods. This would make the throne like 7D possbly 9D

Heroic spirit are classified as the strongest being that exist, to the point that even the 5 magician (user of true magie, zeltrech who ks user of second magi is low 1-C to 1-C here too), would never be able to make a contract with them. Their existance is beyond any magi and Magecraft.

Imo this statement sounds more like they would have trouble summoning them because of the Throne not the servant/being itself. Also if thi statement was really true how could anyone else summon one outside of a grail war? And during a grail war who is really the one summoning them the grail, or the person attempting the summons? We get a statement of the grail summoning them, but we see people in the act of summoning them using some catalyst. Also, this statement is talking about Heroic Spirits as in the Servants not the main body in the throne.

The throne of heroes being a plane of existance higher above Moon cell were Moon cell is only capable of doing an imitation of what he do.

False. In Fate/Extella there is a statements that explicitly states that the Mooncell literally reaches into the Throne. [1] [2]

Heroic spirit as a whole should be 7D to 9D. As they exist in the higher plane of existancew that are considered as higher dimmension being from their avatar even the grand servant and top servant and that nor the holy grail, nor the true magic user can summon them + called the most powerful being as a whole in the verse.

Ah now this is starting to make sense to me.

Avalon is 6D, right? Not even True Magics can affect it, right? Therefore True magics have a limit of up to 5D maybe 6D. naturally they would not be able to reach the Throne since its much higher

To explain what I am in disagreement with;

The tiering justification. Simply existing there shouldn't warrant a tier. Do I believe it can warrant a Key? yes, it can probably have a key. I simply disagree with the justification for the tiering.

The "main body" should be equal to their living self since the throne should have replicated a perfect or near perfect copy of them. though i thought there was a statement on this in F/SN.