Heroic spirit form key, Nasuverse

[QuasiYuri]

You mean them in particular vessels? Do we have any word that they are as strong or stronger in the throne than they are in their vessels?

The vessels only exist because the Heroic Spirits are too strong to be summoned, so they have weakened limited emanation being summoned instead.

 

[Regidian]

Weren't those registered in the Throne of Heroes still counted among Divine Spirits not Heroic ones? But that's offtopic I guess.

How would characters like Sefar, the Lostbelt Olympians or Arjuna Alter be affected then.

Their are not heroic spirit nor enregistered in the throne of heroes (we don't know if arjuna alter is enregistered) so 0 affect

 

[Regidian]

You mean them in particular vessels? Do we have any word that they are as strong or stronger in the throne than they are in their vessels?


I don't think 'higher plane', without further context, suffices to prove an infinite power difference. It doesn't even say higher relative to what and existing on a higher plane alone doesn't necessarily scale to its residents.

The vessel is made to limit them.

"The vessels, classes, act as their temporary name and method of existing. Acting like a "passport to the present", the vessel prepares them for their role as a familiar in advance, allows them to take on that role to help them take form, and brings them forth into the world. Each class identifies only the core skills of the Heroic Spirit because replication of all their abilities is impossible"

"Servants are described as "cheap, convenient, multi-purpose familiars" by Andersen. (Andersen is a servant himself)."

"Pure Heroic Spirits, the "main body" in the Throne of Heroes, can only be summoned by the World, and summoning even one is considered to be a miraculous occurrence."

"Even the Holy Grail lacks the power to summon a true Heroic Spirit, so the process is facilitated by summoning them into one of seven vessels prepared beforehand. The Greater Grail makes a copy using information from the "main body" of the Heroic Spirit, an "emanation".





But the dimmension in the verse are already accepted as having H/F difference?
Or it need to prove that each of them have this with all of them having this feat?

 

[DontTalkDT]

The vessel is made to limit them.

"The vessels, classes, act as their temporary name and method of existing. Acting like a "passport to the present", the vessel prepares them for their role as a familiar in advance, allows them to take on that role to help them take form, and brings them forth into the world. Each class identifies only the core skills of the Heroic Spirit because replication of all their abilities is impossible"

"Servants are described as "cheap, convenient, multi-purpose familiars" by Andersen. (Andersen is a servant himself)."

"Pure Heroic Spirits, the "main body" in the Throne of Heroes, can only be summoned by the World, and summoning even one is considered to be a miraculous occurrence."

"Even the Holy Grail lacks the power to summon a true Heroic Spirit, so the process is facilitated by summoning them into one of seven vessels prepared beforehand. The Greater Grail makes a copy using information from the "main body" of the Heroic Spirit, an "emanation".

Does this apply to the better grand vessels as well or only to the normal ones?

And what about power supply? IIRC servants need to be powered externally, right? Usually, by the Master, but for an unsummoned servant, I suppose the power would come from the Grail giving them a certain amount.

But the dimmension in the verse are already accepted as having H/F difference?
Or it need to prove that each of them have this with all of them having this feat?

What does H/F mean?

Anyway, the higher plane in this case wasn't explained to be a higher dimension in my understanding, so I don't see how that would apply to this.
Additionally, are higher-dimensions the kinds of higher planes that do not by default scale to their inhabitants. So even if we accepted it as such a servant would need a feat of significantly damaging the plane of existence as a whole to get a ranking from that.

 

[LehenDuo]

Does this apply to the better grand vessels as well or only to the normal ones?

And what about power supply? IIRC servants need to be powered externally, right? Usually, by the Master, but for an unsummoned servant, I suppose the power would come from the Grail giving them a certain amount.

I'm realizable aura that, we never de ir bem prximo

What does H/F mean?

Hollow/Fantsia

Anyway, the higher plane in this case wasn't explained to be a higher dimension in my understanding, so I don't see how that would apply to this.
Additionally, are higher-dimensions the kinds of higher planes that do not by default scale to their inhabitants. So even if we accepted it as such a servant would need a feat of significantly damaging the plane of existence as a whole to get a ranking from that.

If you are talking about the TRUE BODY summoning of someone of a Herpic Spiirt caliber, I'm not about money. It's about asking for something that has 0%.

Does this apply to the better grand vessels as well or only to the normal ones?

Yeah, when your averag magecraft could literally realign the very planets and uise them as batteries.
What she asks for is something that only the Nature itself can do. Us, humans?
It's not hard, it's impossible

 

[Antvasima]

DontTalk seems to make valid points. Thank you for helping out.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Does this apply to the better grand vessels as well or only to the normal ones?

It apply to every one of them yes.

And what about power supply? IIRC servants need to be powered externally, right? Usually, by the Master, but for an unsummoned servant, I suppose the power would come from the Grail giving them a certain amount.

Servants with Independant Action on a high level just summon themselves. There's also stray servants who became masterless and live on the energy they were given.

However we have servants like Iskandar who never used any power supply during the entire war.

What does H/F mean?

She meant R/F I think.

Anyway, the higher plane in this case wasn't explained to be a higher dimension in my understanding, so I don't see how that would apply to this.
Additionally, are higher-dimensions the kinds of higher planes that do not by default scale to their inhabitants. So even if we accepted it as such a servant would need a feat of significantly damaging the plane of existence as a whole to get a ranking from that.

They wouldn't scale to the place they are in (the Throne of Heroes resides in Akasha) but they definitely have a superiority over servants; with them being mere shadows of their true self.

 

[Regidian]

Does this apply to the better grand vessels as well or only to the normal ones?

Grand vessel too, they still have class, saint graph and limitation on what they can do (like king hassan loosing all the power of the grand saint graph using a atk being too much for it)

The need of power externally is because they need an anchor to remain in the world. But like Yuri tell many servant can just live by themselves or find a another way to have energy (eating soul). Or we have the people in the Age of god like merlin and gilgamesh that tell they can summon servant whithout the holy grail.

"Servants must maintain a certain amount of energy to remain materialized and fight, and they must have an anchor to the world, their Master or another physical being in order to remain in the world."


H/F it was R/F, reality/fiction difference that was accepted in other crt.

The throne is called an higher plane of existence, and like i tell before i don't tell they should have this tier because existing in that thing alone.



For feat of damaging the throne of heroes, we have none have they have no reason to do it, it's the place where they live but we have Jeanne in Fate/Apocryphia who was able to force her way out of throne of heroes when it should be "impossible" because their are locked in.

 

[Regidian]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

What are the conclusions here so far, and what have DontTalk and QuasiYuri agreed with?

 

[Regidian]

What are the conclusions here so far, and what have DontTalk and QuasiYuri agreed with?

QuasiYuri still agree with OP, and DontTalk don't have tell something about the new argument so should wait

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Can you summarise the new arguments that he needs to evaluate please?

 

[Regidian]

Okay. Can you summarise the new arguments that he needs to evaluate please?

It's not really new argument but more answer of his question, that yuri and me respond about it

 

[LehenDuo]

if you're an higher dimensional being compared to a 3D being, you're "at least 4D", that's not higher than 6D, nor is it higher than 8D, what's so hard to understand about that

• If you are a SOUL, outside of time, aka only 5th Dimension, not 1-4D...
• HS exist OUTSIDE of the World and of Time, but there's absolutely nothing saying they are more than Souls but OP.
• Any Spiritual Body has a Spiritual Rank (even if Materialized I belive), or a Mystery Rank to simplifye "a mystery will fail if countered by a spell of higher mystery" (Eg. Lugh face tanking Magecraft, Caliburn shattering to Gram (it was either Gram of Merodach?) - in the beginning of Fate/Stay Night, she mentions how she would need to use Excalibur if she wanted to cut Sabers throat if IRC
• Brute and Simple Magical Energy Blast (as in just transformed by a Circuit from lifeforce, if expelled as a ranged wepon, given enough RAW Qta/Density, but don't trust this too much if you are already losing that badly in rank and this is obviously very easy to deal with. But it was the only thing they could do to hurt the Velber (excluding Excaliburs) and given they (True Gods) didn't insta-lose and actually fought them, it's implied they were doing something like this.
• Nope, Holy Grails DO NOT have any special connection with the Root/Akasha. The connection the Fuyuki Holy Grail has is secondary to Justeaze, A MAGICIAN, who could do third magic, but not as well as they liked, it was really ******* ''costly'', literally became the ''Circuits''/Forundation the Ritual runs in. You could say she IS the Greater Grail itself. The thing you call Holy Grail is the Lesser Grail, which though 'powerfull'' is so far as capable of storaging a lot of Magical Energy, is there only to summon the Greater and give it the Magical Energy.

With Makiri’s understanding and Tōsaka’s cooperation, Einzbern began to create the great grail.
However, once they started, they determined that Justeaze alone was not enough.
They could create a great grail. They could create its core. However, to operate it they would need vast amounts of magical energy, and a lesser grail to control it.
Makiri and Tōsaka devised a ritual to collect magical energy using Justeaze’s ability to connect with the root: the grail war.
Despite being unable to reproduce Justeaze, Einzbern created a lesser grail with similar abilities to hers.

source? authorities are pretty explicitly the source of the resistance to other authorities. Gilgamesh and BB have equal authority, so they negate each other. A superior divine spirit is unaffected by the authority of an inferior one because they have a better authority

Man, Divinity/Divine Spirits/Authority works different each time it is presented, so... And one correction: Gilgamesh and BB ARE equal Authority-rank beings. To have an authority doesn't make you, as a being, Authority-rank, the same way a Magician is still affected by Material things/Magecraft even if they can use True Magic.

Their are stated to be a higher dimmensionnal being from throne of heroes that exist above Moon cell and outside the World. ( What is the tier of Moon cell? Oh magic it's 8D).

I really won't open this festered can of Primordial Demons...

Void shiki is not a being, she the avatar of [ ]. It's like telling archetype earth is not archetype earth because void shiki is from earth.

There's no such a thing as ''Avatar of [ ]''. Void Shiki is the original (after being Awakened) personality, that exists ''between'' the male/female personalities she created after awakening, connecting with the root and becoming probably omniscient/omnipotent. She is the personality of the body itself, not a personality that exists in the mind, like male/female Shiki.

Saber is tell to be the stronger because the people in not the class bruh, mata hari as a saber will not become suddenly stronger.

The true problem here would be that Mata Hari is such a new HS that she will only be strong in any class with some luch / cultural sphere influence / WHOLE LOTTA FAITH and PRAYERS

It an example and was stated by pretty much everyone to the point that only stheno and her sister is tell to be stronger than before as a living but well like Always it's false no?

It's not that hard to think about more that are strengthened, probably. (Or at least that are stronger than they were in life)
Most relatively recent humans, with some exceptions, would be GREATLY enhanced if compared to their living beings.
Only mythological beings are somewhat limited - Arthuria/Arthur/Siegfried lost their Dragon Core, as did all the ''Dragon Factor'' guys, for example.

Whereas other Servants may be constrained and reduced in ability by their class containers, Stheno actually becomes stronger when summoned as Assassin, simply because even the class container's base abilities are greater than hers.

Servants are the class containers. They cannot be constrainde by their own existence...

Gods that have died before reduction into Divine Spirits could presumably be recorded into the Throne of Heroes. It is also possible for demi-gods to ascend to full godhood like Heracles, who can be summoned from the Throne of Heroes with his complete Divinit

The Herakles that is summoned isn't full godhood Herakles - he lacks a Divine Core to be a Divine Spirit/God.

Again shiki void is not a being by herself, and Heroic spirit are not familiar, the familiar are servant, tell 200 time by now is begin to get annlying.

This is actually correct. And to call Servant Familiars is like calling Shirou's magecraft Porjection. Ghost Liners are closer to summoned beings, or a invoked/evoked being. If you want to be PRECISE.

What same here? Nobody can summon shiki so don't have any reasoning. Yes it's the holy grail that summon servant but don't have power to summon true heroic spirit.

To summon a Heroic Spirit would be COMPLETE 3rd Magic - and again, 3rd is FAR, FAR MORE ABSURD than ''summoning a HS'' - its to MATERIALIZE (make it possible for material and spiritual to interact) the SOUL ITSELF, that is, it's a perpetual motion machine made real. You do understand that, to reenact for a few seconds a LIMITED form of said 3rd Magic they LITERALLY build the Fuyuki Holy Grail War System? The Greater Grail - Justeaze - uses the Ley Lines to store Magical Energy to summon 7 Servants to use their soul as energy to reach the Root and recover the Third Magic in full.

that's litterally what I said above "just like arcueid was reduced from archetype earth to a god, gods are reduced from gods to servants, because that's what they are"

Arcueid wasn't reduced, she had her abiliteis suppresed/couldn't display them. She is still a True Ancesdor/Planet-class Spirit. Gods (actually Divine Spirits probably, because in Pan-Human History ''Gods'' aren´t liked very much) do not need to be ''reduced to be Servant, at least not more than a Heroic Spirit.
I think you are mixing SAINT GRAPH/SPIRIT ORIGIN/SPIRIT FOUNDATION (''Heart/CPU'' of ANY Spiritual Being - ANY) with SPIRITUAL CORE (Servant thing)

For Divine Spirits to be summoned as Servants, their Saint Graphs are reduced to a similar level as Servant, losing much of their power and Authority.

AKA becoming same ''Rank'' as Heroic Spirits? Yeah... I mean, Divine Spirits required True Ether to make their bodies, it's only logical.

Don't have tell grand servant are real body read pls.

There's no real body. They are HS. They are a tale, a story - some made ENTIRELY of the ideations of Humanity. Those who aren´t are LOOOONG dead, and cannot reincarnate anymore.

It does in this case, if only the world have the power to summon the heroic spirit a'd that it's stated multiple time that, the grail don't have enough power to summon them or that their above magecraft is not only for your eyes.

The World has, but it's the last of the last options unless it's a Beast, then it kinda is the last option too.

And what about power supply?

That's a good question... I belive they wouldn't. At least not in the same as a Servant. If anything, they would be kinda like Arcueid I think - INCARNATED!, okey, go live your life.

Grand vessel too, they still have class, saint graph and limitation on what they can do (like king hassan loosing all the power of the grand saint graph using a atk being too much for it)

Saint Graphs aren't a limitation, they are like a Spiritual Being ''Brain''/the Mind Factor - ANY Spiritual Being has one.
But that's not what happened with Hassan... Please reread the scene.

"Servants must maintain a certain amount of energy to remain materialized and fight, and they must have an anchor to the world, their Master or another physical being in order to remain in the world."

A Servants ability to generate Magical Energy is like SHIT - most lose their OPs Magic Cores/Circuits/etc, but their upkeep is very high, because they can output a % much more closer to 100% than they can generate. and require Magical Energy jsut to ''maintain their form material''. Independent Action and being Incarnated somehow like Gilgamseh can somehow make this irrelevant though.

The throne is called an higher plane of existence, and like i tell before i don't tell they should have this tier because existing in that thing alone.

Compared to the material, it is. But they are still Souls, and that's it. No additional dimensionality.

For feat of damaging the throne of heroes, we have none have they have no reason to do it, it's the place where they live but we have Jeanne in Fate/Apocryphia who was able to force her way out of throne of heroes when it should be "impossible" because their are locked in.

She, as a Soul, existed in a place without time. She had long lost her physical body also. It is the same thing that happened with BB hacking the Moon Cell, infinity > impossible. And they aren't locked in, they are there, as record.

 

[TypeOU]

• If you are a SOUL, outside of time, aka only 5th Dimension, not 1-4D...

I meant for the tiering system, time isn't a spatial dimension to begin with, and simply existing outside of something doesn't qualify for being above it iirc

 

[Antvasima]

It's not really new argument but more answer of his question, that yuri and me respond about it

Can you explain what he needs to evaluate please? So I can quote it and ask him to evaluate it.

 

[LehenDuo]

I meant for the tiering system, time isn't a spatial dimension to begin with, and simply existing outside of something doesn't qualify for being above it iirc

For the tiering I thought we were going to use Materialized Heroic Spirits, are we not?

Materialization of the soul, in other words, the magic that realizes true immortality. When accomplished, the practitioner will acquire an unlimited source of magical energy due to the soul becoming analogous to a perpetual motion machine. This is the Magic of the Einzbern lineage, and the Holy Grail War was established to acquire this Magic

The soul ITSELF is higher dimensional, 5D/ least 5D, because the 4D is Sea of Time / Imaginary Numbers Space

As far as the Materialized Form, it seems to be normal dimensions.

 

[Regidian]

Can you explain what he needs to evaluate please? So I can quote it and ask him to evaluate it.

Okay

It apply to every one of them yes.

Servants with Independant Action on a high level just summon themselves. There's also stray servants who became masterless and live on the energy they were given.

However we have servants like Iskandar who never used any power supply during the entire war.

She meant R/F I think.

They wouldn't scale to the place they are in (the Throne of Heroes resides in Akasha) but they definitely have a superiority over servants; with them being mere shadows of their true self.

Grand vessel too, they still have class, saint graph and limitation on what they can do (like king hassan loosing all the power of the grand saint graph using a atk being too much for it)

The need of power externally is because they need an anchor to remain in the world. But like Yuri tell many servant can just live by themselves or find a another way to have energy (eating soul). Or we have the people in the Age of god like merlin and gilgamesh that tell they can summon servant whithout the holy grail.

"Servants must maintain a certain amount of energy to remain materialized and fight, and they must have an anchor to the world, their Master or another physical being in order to remain in the world."


H/F it was R/F, reality/fiction difference that was accepted in other crt.

The throne is called an higher plane of existence, and like i tell before i don't tell they should have this tier because existing in that thing alone.



For feat of damaging the throne of heroes, we have none have they have no reason to do it, it's the place where they live but we have Jeanne in Fate/Apocryphia who was able to force her way out of throne of heroes when it should be "impossible" because their are locked in.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

@DontTalkDT

Would you be willing to evaluate the above post please?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Okay

Can I get scans on those claims? Not necessarily the "they can summon themselves" thing, but sources on the throne of heroes versions being stronger than their grand servant selves. Why does them having classes and limitations equate to them not having their full power?

If you say "reality/fiction difference that was accepted in other crt." do you mean dimensions were accepted as equivalent to such a difference or as actually being such a difference? Can I see the thread?

Forcing one's way out of the throne of heroes doesn't sound like it necessarily scales to the realm itself.

 

[LehenDuo]

Can I get scans on those claims? Not necessarily the "they can summon themselves" thing, but sources on the throne of heroes versions being stronger than their grand servant selves. Why does them having classes and limitations equate to them not having their full power?

Because that is what ''Classes'' do, they direct the form they gonna take in a direction.
Saber Herakles would be the class in which he would be truly able to
Archer Herakles would be the class in which he would display his true archery skills
Berserker he can't even use Nine Lives because he does not have enough coordination

And I wouldn't use the expression ''full power'' in here, I think. Heroic Spirits are, in the end, information that has been compiled together - Heroic Spirits do not even need to have existed as ''humans'' and can be from 1 to 100% woven by Humanity imagination/ideation. They may even have its Saint Graph modified, or expanded through consumptions of minds/souls - strange/fake even introduced the idea of Reinforcement, but didn't fully explained it yet. There's no reference to use. And even the ''Top'' Servants - Arturia - may be enhanced somehow, even in the ''Perfect''/Only Class for her.

Volume 2: The Mad Feast of Kings - Act 5 Part 1 -150.39.43​
Saber's sixth sense was also strengthened to a degree due to her class's specialty, almost to the level of precognition. If even she felt uneasy about the enemy, Irisviel also had to reevaluate Caster.

Forcing one's way out of the throne of heroes doesn't sound like it necessarily scales to the realm itself.

Yeah, it shouldn't. But it should be noted the feat was compared to running towards a wall and going through it similarly to quantum tunneling (of each/every atom of your body). But, as she (Jeanne) had infinite time as she was Outside of it, even what we would call ''impossible'' < Infinite.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Because that is what ''Classes'' do, they direct the form they gonna take in a direction.
Saber Herakles would be the class in which he would be truly able to
Archer Herakles would be the class in which he would display his true archery skills
Berserker he can't even use Nine Lives because he does not have enough coordination

And I wouldn't use the expression ''full power'' in here, I think. Heroic Spirits are, in the end, information that has been compiled together - Heroic Spirits do not even need to have existed as ''humans'' and can be from 1 to 100% woven by Humanity imagination/ideation. They may even have its Saint Graph modified, or expanded through consumptions of minds/souls - strange/fake even introduced the idea of Reinforcement, but didn't fully explained it yet. There's no reference to use. And even the ''Top'' Servants - Arturia - may be enhanced somehow, even in the ''Perfect''/Only Class for her.

Volume 2: The Mad Feast of Kings - Act 5 Part 1 -150.39.43​
Saber's sixth sense was also strengthened to a degree due to her class's specialty, almost to the level of precognition. If even she felt uneasy about the enemy, Irisviel also had to reevaluate Caster.

Is directing a form to take a certain direction the same as being weakened, though?

Like, sure Archer Herakles would be the class with his true archery skill, but a theoretical grand servant archer heracles would be even better, if in stats only. Such statements of optimal class relate more to the choice between the available options for vessels than to the unrelated throne version, which isn't an option.

Now, I can see how one can say the throne version has the true archery skill based on that argument, but not that it automatically has the stats as well.

 

[LehenDuo]

Is directing a form to take a certain direction the same as being weakened, though?

It's more along the idea that the Soul has Blueprints of how something should be. It's either a different living being or not a living being if you can so easily change things without any cost - and we have been told HS are Spiritual Being, and therefore should have/be ''Souls of themselves''
But considering that just by you, not the Soul ''blueprint'', being the one creating anything, you are most likely than not creating a vessel that doesn't fit said soul - and considering a HS like Gilgamesh has accumulated 4600 years of ''information'' which we have no idea how exactly affects his ''body''.

Like, sure Archer Herakles would be the class with his true archery skill, but a theoretical grand servant archer heracles would be even better, if in stats only. Such statements of optimal class relate more to the choice between the available options for vessels than to the unrelated throne version, which isn't an option.

This is a question I don't believe anyone can answer you clearly. I can give you my opinion - I don't think the Grand Servant Vessel in any way changes the ''Base Parameters'' of any Ability, Skill or NP. They may allow for more of them, or something similar, but, as we know from the game, after a Grand renounces, he loses ''the position'' of Grand, but retains the Grand-class Saint Graph, which is their until they use - such as ''impose the Concept of DEATH to Tiamat, that was the Goddess embodying the Cycle of Life and Death..

• This leads me to believe the ''Class'', that would be Size (Divine, HS, Grand, Dragon (? Tiamat)) of a Saint Graph is directly related only to QNTY of Magical Energy that Graph has, at least stricto sensu. QSH has Grand-class, for example, but doesn't has Grand-rank/level. I have to confirm, but I remember reading somewhere that human's soul consumption by Servants would gain capacity and therefore be ''tougher'', but couldn't alter their Stats themselves. If I find the time and remember I will try to find a quote.
• Now, I think there may be a ''level/rank'' difference between Grand and -. I believe it could work similarly to the Spiritual Ranks/Greater-Lesser Mysteries, allowing ''more functionalities'' (a higher level CPU) de facto. Example - a Divine-Rank Saint Graph, materialized, has all it's Authorities/etc.
• And then you have the Strength itself. Even a Grand-rank Servant could be totally empty of Magical Energy or have a E for STR/END because of some detail of the tale it was woven from.

Sherlock commeting on the Artificial Xian's Saint Graph of QSH.... how did it go? Something like ''it's not that it is strong, it is just great'' I belive?

Now, I can see how one can say the throne version has the true archery skill based on that argument, but not that it automatically has the stats as well.

One of the things I want to highlight, also - In the Lostbelt, Romulus-Quirinus was summoned using Grand Summoning Array , Godbreaker Spell Protocol - Designated Summoning of the Heroic Spirits of the Grand Class. This ritual had, as one of it's steps/requirements, the creation of the Grand Summoning Vessel Aether.
The ''Vessel Aether'' very much leads me to believe it's obvious Grand Servants aren't in any way shape or form even similar to the Heroic Spirit soul materialized by the 3rd - in similar way that the Gods could, when they were still Divinities, and True Ether existed. They aren't reincarnated, they are still Ghost Liners. They aren't the Heroic Spirits.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out DontTalk.

 

[DontTalkDT]

It's more along the idea that the Soul has Blueprints of how something should be. It's either a different living being or not a living being if you can so easily change things without any cost - and we have been told HS are Spiritual Being, and therefore should have/be ''Souls of themselves''
But considering that just by you, not the Soul ''blueprint'', being the one creating anything, you are most likely than not creating a vessel that doesn't fit said soul - and considering a HS like Gilgamesh has accumulated 4600 years of ''information'' which we have no idea how exactly affects his ''body''.


This is a question I don't believe anyone can answer you clearly. I can give you my opinion - I don't think the Grand Servant Vessel in any way changes the ''Base Parameters'' of any Ability, Skill or NP. They may allow for more of them, or something similar, but, as we know from the game, after a Grand renounces, he loses ''the position'' of Grand, but retains the Grand-class Saint Graph, which is their until they use - such as ''impose the Concept of DEATH to Tiamat, that was the Goddess embodying the Cycle of Life and Death..

• This leads me to believe the ''Class'', that would be Size (Divine, HS, Grand, Dragon (? Tiamat)) of a Saint Graph is directly related only to QNTY of Magical Energy that Graph has, at least stricto sensu. QSH has Grand-class, for example, but doesn't has Grand-rank/level. I have to confirm, but I remember reading somewhere that human's soul consumption by Servants would gain capacity and therefore be ''tougher'', but couldn't alter their Stats themselves. If I find the time and remember I will try to find a quote.
• Now, I think there may be a ''level/rank'' difference between Grand and -. I believe it could work similarly to the Spiritual Ranks/Greater-Lesser Mysteries, allowing ''more functionalities'' (a higher level CPU) de facto. Example - a Divine-Rank Saint Graph, materialized, has all it's Authorities/etc.
• And then you have the Strength itself. Even a Grand-rank Servant could be totally empty of Magical Energy or have a E for STR/END because of some detail of the tale it was woven from.

Sherlock commeting on the Artificial Xian's Saint Graph of QSH.... how did it go? Something like ''it's not that it is strong, it is just great'' I belive?


One of the things I want to highlight, also - In the Lostbelt, Romulus-Quirinus was summoned using Grand Summoning Array , Godbreaker Spell Protocol - Designated Summoning of the Heroic Spirits of the Grand Class. This ritual had, as one of it's steps/requirements, the creation of the Grand Summoning Vessel Aether.
The ''Vessel Aether'' very much leads me to believe it's obvious Grand Servants aren't in any way shape or form even similar to the Heroic Spirit soul materialized by the 3rd - in similar way that the Gods could, when they were still Divinities, and True Ether existed. They aren't reincarnated, they are still Ghost Liners. They aren't the Heroic Spirits.

I... uhhh... well, as some that has only seen like 3 of the anime series I honestly can't follow that explanation. Too many words that mean nothing to me.

Maybe I should hand the evaluation of whether they should scale to certain other characters or not off to someone more intimate to the source material. @Antvasima you usually have a good idea who to ask. I will continue following this in case more debate of the higher plane stuff is desired.

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

scaling heroic spirits with true demons?

true demons are creatures that pose a threat to the buddhas they are described as transcendent beings, higher dimensional existences, and beyond comprehension (they are already accepted on vsb as HDE).

Though the classifications of "Demons" and "Fiends" do exist, their manner of existence is in essence indistinguishable from that of a higher-order lifeform (高次元生命体, kou-jigen seimeitai?, lit. "higher-dimension lifeform") that inhabits a different sphere of civilization (異なる文明圏, koto-naru bunmei-ken?) upon a different planet (異なる惑星, koto-naru wakusei?).

the explanation of heroic spirits is exactly the same as the explanation of true demons where they are described as higher existences

“Heroic Spirits are beings of a higher existence, becoming categorically closer to Elementals than wraiths. Differing from how Elementals are "power" granted form using human imagination as a container, they are entirely woven from the ideals of people all throughout”

even though jeanne as a heroic spirit is able to step down from the throne but she doesn't go to the material world where humans live, but goes to the reverse side of the world (6th dimensional realm)

 

[Antvasima]

I... uhhh... well, as some that has only seen like 3 of the anime series I honestly can't follow that explanation. Too many words that mean nothing to me.

Maybe I should hand the evaluation of whether they should scale to certain other characters or not off to someone more intimate to the source material. @Antvasima you usually have a good idea who to ask. I will continue following this in case more debate of the higher plane stuff is desired.

Okay.

@Iapitus_The_Impaler @CrimsonStarFallen @Newendigo @Dragonmasterxyz

Would you be willing to help out here please?

 

[Regidian]

Can I get scans on those claims? Not necessarily the "they can summon themselves" thing, but sources on the throne of heroes versions being stronger than their grand servant selves. Why does them having classes and limitations equate to them not having their full power?

If you say "reality/fiction difference that was accepted in other crt." do you mean dimensions were accepted as equivalent to such a difference or as actually being such a difference? Can I see the thread?

Forcing one's way out of the throne of heroes doesn't sound like it necessarily scales to the realm itself.

Because class and limitation, it's limit their skill they can't have skill they have but don't correpond to the class of the vessel, limit their stronger thing, like many servant are weaker in certain class than other because the class don't correpond to them or like some servant having their power divised in the 7 class.

We have nothing that state it directly except that it's tell that it's even miraculous for the World to be able to summon a Heroic spirit true body when the World can summon Grand summon whenever she see the need of it, that Grand servant even with their statue as Grand are still just servant and so are just emanation (a little part of information/soul) of the Heroic spirit Main body. We have too Gilgamesh in Extra who was the only who doesn't have class in the beginning and was stronger than everyone and even stronger than the Moon cell who "summon" him. (It was an accidental summon).

It's just a reasoning of if Grand servant and Heroic spirit are equal why the World would prefer to summon a degraded version who doesn't have all the power/skill to protect her World.

For the higher dimmension being R/F difference in the verse it's show here.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-mega-crt-part-1-1-a-root.113096/

 

[Newendigo]

Well, I was mostly wondering if this higher form was relevant enough to be added in so many profiles.

I cant tell much about the info itself, other than the fact there is a lot of concepts that are either debatable or no properly explained.

Idk what to say other than is probably better to establish more basic info to VsBattle beforehand so everyone can understand what its going on here.

 

[Antvasima]

If you mean simplifying the explanations for our tiering system, I and AKM have talked with DontTalk about it in private, but we regrettably haven't made any progress yet.

 

[Regidian]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody write a good explanation of the discussion here so far please? After that I can make another attempt to send for evaluation help.

 

[Regidian]

So like the title say it's a CRT an attempt to create the heroic sprit key for all the servant register in throne of heroes.

Like we know Heroic spirit are Heroes who have left behind great feats in legends after death which lead them to ascend as Heroic spirit in an higher plane of existence (Throne of heroes). The Throne of heroes is a place existing outside of both the World and the time axis too.

---

Being like Grand Servant or Arturia/Gilgamesh of Extella serie are still just avatar of Heroic spirit, they just have better vessel compared to the normal one (grand servant vessel for fgo and better cyber frame for extella)

• "While Servants are a degraded form of the Grand Servant ritual, the difference between Grand Servants and Servants is rank of the vessel and authority rather than their comparative ranks as Heroic Spirits." London: The Death World in the City of Demonic Fog - Section 13

We know too that that Heroic spirit classified as the strongest being that exist, as the point that even the 5 magicians (user of true magi) can't summon them because their own intrisec nature are beyond magi and magecraft. (which mean they are even beyond Avalon who is tell to be a true magi by himself)

• "Heroic Spirits are the most powerful of beings with which even the five magicians would never be able to forge a contract with. Rather than it being a hard process to summon them or the fact that they far surpass magi, it is their intrinsic nature in that they are beings beyond magecraft. Magi can perform rituals to borrow their power to mimic them, but cannot summon actual Heroic Spirits themselves."

• "An “absolute defence” that can even repel the assault of True Magic, it is a True Magic in itself." Fate Complete Material III: World material - Theory of Magic - Magecraft: Effects on the Level of True Magic, p.049

So for the stat they should be 1 dimmension higher than grand servant/extra servant/moon cell are so 7D (being of a higher plane of existance than Avalon and being above True magic) possibly 9D (being of higher plane than the Moon Cell which contain and control 8 dimmension).

---

For the ability, Heroic spirit are not limited in skill and class like the servant they should be composite version of what we know about them (except if a servant is specified tell to be register in the throne of heroes as a different version than the other self). Most of them should have resistance of autority as their are all High divinity being and because the Mythical Mystic code who allow to resist authority of BB is a power coming from them.

• "The vessels, classes, act as their temporary name and method of existing. Acting like a "passport to the present", the vessel prepares them for their role as a familiar in advance, allows them to take on that role to help them take form, and brings them forth into the world. Each class identifies only the core skills of the Heroic Spirit because replication of all their abilities is impossible.

• Counter Guardian is a broad classification of Heroic Spirits made up of heroes who are not worshipped, utilized as a mindless Counter Force. Other Heroic Spirits have a high Divinity and act as existences closer to the planet than humanity.

• By entering the servant's virtual mind/body to access the Heroic spirit core directly, it is possible for the master to reach the heroic spirit's root that the Moon Cell had sealed away, and release the Mythological Mystic Code.

If people ask, we know that heroic spirit exist in Throne of heroes, their not just information recorded.

• -It seems like her cooking skills became famous among Divine Spirits, and before long, she started holding periodic cooking classes in the Throne of Heroes in response to the demands of the Japanese Heroic Spirits." From the Material of Enma.

Agree: QuasiYuri, Tam0n3m, KingofHeroes


Disagree: TypeOU


Neutral: Expectro2000xxx (if a key is made should be unknow, at least 1-C)

Yeah.



The point is to make the page for Heroic spirit true body(the much easier thing would be to do a civilization page).

All thing i tell here are tell in the OP and in the debate i had with TypeOU, can resend them if needed

The heroic spirit are heroes who ascended in a higher plane of existance after their death(throne of heroes) their are multiple time called higher dimensionnal being.


Grand servant(fgo) and Top servant(fate extella) are part of their avatar made from their emanations, having many limitation in power, skill and be limited to one class compared to the true body. (Grand servant are low 1-C to 1-C here, same for arturia top servant).

Heroic spirit are classified as the strongest being that exist, to the point that even the 5 magician (user of true magie, zeltrech who ks user of second magi is low 1-C to 1-C here too), would never be able to make a contract with them. Their existance is beyond any magi and Magecraft.

Only the World is capable of summoning them and even that it's considered to be a miraculous occurence, the holy grail too is not strong enough to summon the main body of a true heroic spirit.

The throne of heroes being a plane of existance higher above Moon cell were Moon cell is only capable of doing an imitation of what he do.

Nero mentionning the possibility of summoning a heroic spirit when she use regalia (authority and power of moon cell), sword of mars to create a chanel to higher plane (she was already low 1-C/1-C here) to summon someone. She just decided to summon a god after.

All of this should mean that heroic spirit are at least above grand and character like gilga or artutia from extra serie because their are only avatar of them with many limitation if not a dimmension above like throne of heroes bevause their are resident of this dimmmension.

Conclusion :

Heroic spirit as a whole should be 7D to 9D. As they exist in the higher plane of existance, are considered as higher dimmension being from their avatar even the grand servant and top servant and that nor the holy grail, nor the true magic user can summon them + called the most powerful being, and that only the world could be able to summon them. And existing in a higher plane than moon cell.

Heroic spirit will get resistance to all magecraft.

Should get acausality type 4 (their are separated from the concept of time not getting affected by any change in causality or by the system of the world)

Should get HDE


And they are the composite version of their different servant version as their not limited in their skill/class (except if a servant is specifically tell to be registered in the throne as a different being)

Because class and limitation, it's limit their skill they can't have skill they have but don't correpond to the class of the vessel, limit their stronger thing, like many servant are weaker in certain class than other because the class don't correpond to them or like some servant having their power divised in the 7 class.

We have nothing that state it directly except that it's tell that it's even miraculous for the World to be able to summon a Heroic spirit true body when the World can summon Grand summon whenever she see the need of it, that Grand servant even with their statue as Grand are still just servant and so are just emanation (a little part of information/soul) of the Heroic spirit Main body. We have too Gilgamesh in Extra who was the only who doesn't have class in the beginning and was stronger than everyone and even stronger than the Moon cell who "summon" him. (It was an accidental summon).

It's just a reasoning of if Grand servant and Heroic spirit are equal why the World would prefer to summon a degraded version who doesn't have all the power/skill to protect her World.

For the higher dimmension being R/F difference in the verse it's show here.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/nasuverse-mega-crt-part-1-1-a-root.113096/

This is an approximate resume

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you.

@GyroNutz @DarkGrath @The_Wright_Way @Moritzva @Firestorm808

Would any of you be willing to help evaluate the above post please?

 

[Antvasima]

Also, what did DontTalk and QuasiYuri think here earlier?

 

[Regidian]

Also, what did DontTalk and QuasiYuri think here earlier?

QuasiYuri agreed, DontTalk tell he doesn't have enough knowledge on the verse to give an answer

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Have any other staff members evaluated this?

 

[Regidian]

Okay. Have any other staff members evaluated this?

No, Fate crt are not really popular lol

 

[TrueKingOfHeroes]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody summarise the above discussion, arguments, and conclusions in a useful manner please?