Here we go again: 1-A Ichiban downgrade, the sequel.

[AKUTO123]

Why would the infinite possibilities of worlds in the afterlife surpass the dream hierarchy? What I’m saying is that yes he trancends the first fiction but why would the fist fiction contain a infinite hierarchy

If you're wondering why infinite possibilities involve infinite hierarchy, do read DT's comments, basically because he is the one who claims and shows it

 

[AKUTO123]

Yes? The first fiction is the story of demon king, the second fiction is the afterlife, the third fiction was never stated but we know it exists because bouchirou states that the fictions go on forever

High 1As due to the 3rd setup you mentioned

 

[Antvasima]

Please stop derailing. We are just waiting for DontTalk here.

 

[Catzlaflame]

Please stop derailing. We are just waiting for DontTalk here.

Sorry

 

[Antvasima]

No problem.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

sorry to bother, but didn't we wait a little too long

 

[Antvasima]

@DontTalkDT

Your help with an explanation blog would still be appreciated here.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

The non-virtual alternate dimensions, which are nothing but parallel universes, are what is the infinite multiverse I was referring to. Since Akuto creates every story he would create countless ones of those.
Btw. to the realms mention above technically come countless timeline of each of them in addition to it, but that's not really important as we already have an infinite multiverse.

“Having all these different worlds is confusing. The real world, virtual alternate dimensions, outside the universe, non-virtual alternate dimensions, and the afterlife. Does that cover it?”

Hiroshi frowned and Bouichirou corrected him.

“Not quite. What you referred to as ‘outside the universe’ and ‘non-virtual alternate dimensions’ are the same thing. Not much is known about those alternate dimensions. We only know there are likely an infinite number. You had the rest right and the Law of Identity is related to them all. Most likely, she created them. That is why they are relatively easy to understand.”

the thing is actually in the truth of the translation it says countless (Just thought I'd add it as a note.)

"Not exactly. Another dimension (異次元) and Outer Space are the same thing, just different words. We don't know much about other dimensions, only that there are probably countless numbers (無数) of them. However, the others are classified correctly. Perhaps it is safe to say that they were created by The Law of Identity (自同律). Therefore, it is relatively easy to understand this."

"Keena-chan created them? So it's understandable?"

"For me and Rimu Sudou (須藤理夢), yes. But by understandable, I meant that I can explain the world in a simple way. You can say that our universe was created by the Law of Identity."

"That's easy to say? I thought we were talking about going through time and changing history."

Hiroshi was puzzled. He was starting to lose track of what he was looking for in this conversation in the first place.

Seeing the look he was having, Bouichirou smiled.

"If we're to go through time, I needed you to understand that our knowledge is inconsistent with our world."

"So we're going off on another tangent here?" ‘’

 

[DontTalkDT]

@DontTalkDT

Your help with an explanation blog would still be appreciated here.

Oh yeah, didn't get to this one yet... Sorry.
I will finish applying the death mage revisions and do this right after, unless something really important interrupts it.

the thing is actually in the truth of the translation it says countless (Just thought I'd add it as a note.)

Doesn't really matter for the tiering, luckily. You sure, though?
Both the fan and the official translation of the novel say infinite there, which seems like it would be a big coincidence if it's wrong. Idk, maybe they figured that was more appropriate by the context or something...

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

Doesn't really matter for the tiering, luckily. You sure, though?
Both the fan and the official translation of the novel say infinite there, which seems like it would be a big coincidence if it's wrong. Idk, maybe they figured that was more appropriate by the context or something...

As far as I know, the official translation is wrong, at least Lonli said so... I didn't make this translation, it came from the translation request section of the wiki.

 

[Saiyan40009]

what is the agreed level

 

[QuasiYuri]

If you're wondering why infinite possibilities involve infinite hierarchy, do read DT's comments, basically because he is the one who claims and shows it

Ionliosite actually has a problem with it tho, since it doesn't show this and goes on the assumption that "infinite universes means it definitely made one where they are above the dream hierarchy" (which would be kind of a big reaching for any 2-A Multiverses)
I'm not sure if the compromise can still work with this problem to begin with.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out DontTalk.

Tell us here when you are done.

 

[DontTalkDT]

So, I finished the Death Mage revisions. I have started creating the prototype for the explanation page already, so I should be done in a few days at most (unless something really important and unforseen interrupts me)

Ionliosite actually has a problem with it tho, since it doesn't show this and goes on the assumption that "infinite universes means it definitely made one where they are above the dream hierarchy" (which would be kind of a big reaching for any 2-A Multiverses)
I'm not sure if the compromise can still work with this problem to begin with.

Eh, no that really misrepresents the argument. It's not "infinite universes means it definitely made one where they are above the dream hierarchy" it's "creating every possible story also includes creating the story with an infinite hierarchy which is explicitly mentioned as possible in the novel".
If you don't agree that's fine, but please repeat my arguments properly if people ask about them.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out DontTalk. It is very appreciated.

 

[Darksmash]

Is the dream hierarchy even relevant to the cosmology though?

Unless I am interpreting this wrong, the possibilities that Akuto created were explicitly said to involve combinations of a finite space and a finite number of characters:

Maybe opening up all the possibilities was a mistake. Space is finite. Characters are finite. But their combinations are infinite. Opening up a possibility meant breaking down the walls of the worlds within Akuto that might have been.

There is no reason for it to include the dream hierarchy unless I missed something

 

[Darksmash]

Also 2-C feats in the verse should only be seen as a high degree of 3-A, because time in Daimao isn't a continuum

“The reason that something can’t exist in multiple places at once is that, in fact, time has a minimum unit size. If it could be infinitely divided, then the paradox of the tortoise and Achilles would be made real.”

Btw, does someone have link to the raws of the LN?

 

[AKUTO123]

Also 2-C feats in the verse should only be seen as a high degree of 3-A, because time in Daimao isn't a continuum



Btw, does someone have link to the raws of the LN?

the virtual alternate dimensions are said to be 4D, and the virtual alternate dimensions are the same as the universe. at least that's what I remember.

 

[Ningenron]

Also 2-C feats in the verse should only be seen as a high degree of 3-A, because time in Daimao isn't a continuum

Wouldn't it actually be lower based on those tho?

This one came from beyond Pluto.”

“Beyond Pluto?”

“Just in case, I had this gathering data that could indicate this universe is unnatural. As I mentioned before, one of those facts is the possibility that nothing exists past Pluto in this universe. Anyway, you could say that this meteor suddenly appeared from outside the solar system. I don’t know the details, but it seems we were only just now able to detect it,” explained Yoshie. “It’s hard to believe we were simply slow to detect it. It was discovered by the wartime anti-air network. Surprisingly, that wartime anti-air network covers objects travelling toward the empire from anywhere within the solar system.”

No.” Akuto shook his head. “We’re not going to the earth.”

“Is there another planet we can move to? There are no planets outside the solar system, after all.”

“Looks that way. I had suspected this ever since I had some questions about this world’s space development. After all, it seemed like this world had nothing beyond the solar system.”

“Come to think of it, when our world went to the moon…”

“Yes, space development was banned. It was as if this world were a miniature garden. With this new information, I’m sure of it. Akuto-kun has overcome death, so if anyone can overcome death in the same way…”

Just to be clear, we can’t detect anything outside the solar system.”

“No, you can’t. But there is something beyond there: another universe.”

The One seemed to feel more leeway because he began speaking like a teacher.

“In other words, this world ends within the solar system?” asked Lily to make sure.

“Yes. This world goes no further than that and the other world is more or less the same.”

“So you broke through the barrier and passed between worlds to come here?”

the virtual alternate dimensions are said to be 4D

It getting called 4 dimensional space means nothing without more context. I can name an island as "infinite island" does this means it's infinite? Nope. And everything about the virtual dimension in the novel screams it's not higher dimension anyway.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

Just because it getting called 4 dimensional space means nothing, I can name an island as "infinite island" does this means it's infinite? Nope. And everything about the virtual dimension in the novel screams it's not higher dimension anyway.

Based on what? For that dimension, implied there is infinitely vast space and time, why not 4-D?

The virtual alternate dimension was commonly referred to as a 4th dimensional space. Researchers’ understanding of it was as follows: “we don’t know why, but there is an infinitely vast space adjacent to our dimension.

“A day in the game is equivalent to about an hour in reality,” explained Yoshihiko as he set up the camp.

Everything you throw at it shows nothing that virtual alternate dimensions cannot be 4-D dimensional.

 

[Antvasima]

It is probably best to just wait for DontTalk to finish here.

 

[AKUTO123]

Wouldn't it actually be lower based on those tho?






It getting called 4 dimensional space means nothing without more context. I can name an island as "infinite island" does this means it's infinite? Nope. And everything about the virtual dimension in the novel screams it's not higher dimension anyway.

if something is said to be 4D, it is 4D, it must be universal or Infinite for it to turn into AP, only the difference is that the virtual alternate dimensions of the universe are already in the series .

 

[DontTalkDT]

So, I have finished creating the explanation page. It is mostly focused on explaining the cosmology and the rankings of the major Tier 1's. I have also copied Ionliosite's section for Tier 2's from his blog and given appropriate credit.
One could of course still extend this by including more explanation for non-cosmic stuff and going more into detail on why the minor Tier 1's scale to Akuto/TLOI, but I think matters like that are something for another thread in the future.

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

So, I have finished creating the explanation page. It is mostly focused on explaining the cosmology and the rankings of the major Tier 1's. I have also copied Ionliosite's section for Tier 2's from his blog and given appropriate credit.
One could of course still extend this by including more explanation for non-cosmic stuff and going more into detail on why the minor Tier 1's scale to Akuto/TLOI, but I think matters like that are something for another thread in the future.

thanks for your time

 

[Saiyan40009]

I really think that taking it literal when akuto says all stories is basically not basing sentences as it can create stories is more this could only be just the universe I think that taking the idea akuto can create stories with infinite hierarchy is to make headcanon

 

[Yar_R_agi_7k]

I really think that taking it literal when akuto says all stories is basically not basing sentences as it can create stories is more this could only be just the universe I think that taking the idea akuto can create stories with infinite hierarchy is to make headcanon

well if you want to confirm this you have to debunk Donttalktd's arguments

 

[Antvasima]

So, I have finished creating the explanation page. It is mostly focused on explaining the cosmology and the rankings of the major Tier 1's. I have also copied Ionliosite's section for Tier 2's from his blog and given appropriate credit.
One could of course still extend this by including more explanation for non-cosmic stuff and going more into detail on why the minor Tier 1's scale to Akuto/TLOI, but I think matters like that are something for another thread in the future.

Thank you. It should preferably be linked to in the verse page for the fiction in question.

 

[Saiyan40009]

the problem is there is nothing fundamentally akuto has created stories with infinite hierarchies not simply take the statement with all the stories even the way in which akuto talks about history I create a story elephant fly another hitler death these same affirmations coraborate that they are universes

 

[DontTalkDT]

Thank you. It should preferably be linked to in the verse page for the fiction in question.

Done.

I really think that taking it literal when akuto says all stories is basically not basing sentences as it can create stories is more this could only be just the universe I think that taking the idea akuto can create stories with infinite hierarchy is to make headcanon

It's not just "all stories" they really go into details on what that entails. They specify that this only entails things that can be put in writing and that it has to be logically consistent. They also make the connection to the philosophical idea of possible worlds and stuff.
This isn't some random throwaway statement in-between, there is an entire paragraph on it which is given great importance.

Your entire argument also basically breaks down to "well, maybe the author just didn't properly think through what he wrote there". You could say the same about every lightning dodging feat. Yeah, maybe the author didn't think through how fast his character would be if it dodges lightning. However, we evaluate fiction by what is shown, so that is irrelevant.
The definition the author gives regarding "possible stories" isn't ambiguous in the slightest, so unless there is an actual contradiction we won't discard them.

 

[Saiyan40009]

We are not seeing how much philosophy this intentions carry when the same intention of the story never shows that the akuto story has infinite hierarchies, basically its argument is based on itself and if the author wanted to put that when nothing nation implies that

 

[DaReaperMan]

We don't care what the author wanted. At all. We care about feats and scaling. Word of God is accepted if it doesn't contradict the verse for example

 

[DontTalkDT]

We are not seeing how much philosophy this intentions carry when the same intention of the story never shows that the akuto story has infinite hierarchies, basically its argument is based on itself and if the author wanted to put that when nothing nation implies that

No, possible stories are explicitly defined as "everything that can be put into writing". Additionally, I only assume that things are included in possible stories that are called stories/fiction. The facts in the story speak against you.

You are also really obviously wrong about the stories just being universes, because... well one of the explicit stories is literally an isekai with someone being reincarnated in a different world.

Yoshie was reincarnated in a different world and retained her memories of her previous life as a modern person. The other world’s science was at the level of the middle ages, so she did great things with her scientific abilities. This story’s conclusion was not a story, so the test of the possibility ended quickly. This was because he was unable to deny the value of finally affirming the modern.

It is also said how the extra-universal gods are concepts in the story... which can't really be the case if they were no more than a single universe.

So the facts of the story stand against your interpretation. The author intent wouldn't really agree with you either, since what the author intends to happen here is Akuto creating all of (written) fiction and reading through it in order to find a fitting ending for his own story. This part of the story is an analogy for the authors struggle to find a satisfying end for this story of his.

Basically, neither what is written in the novel nor the author intend agrees with your interpretation... and the latter doesn't even matter for this.

 

[Saiyan40009]

we are literally taking the highest possible interpretation of akuto history even more than it is logical that this histirias are just universe akuto history >>>> beyond >>>>>> hierarchy dreams >>>>>>> empty body when the same history it says

 

[Saiyan40009]

I don't know why yoshie had recharged in another world like an isekai at the end it is still universe once again the echo mention every possible story contradicts even the moment that akuto created it, it is confirmed to us that they are still trapped in a hierarchy of a level lower contradicting the fact that akuto is able to create a larger story at the end that the author puts an implicit way as an example and if we create a story pink elephant

 

[AKUTO123]

I think you've misunderstood the author's interpretation of the story. when the author says story, he doesn't just mean universes, the story is also the structure of human thought. it's a story for the author to raise someone's hand in the air. all possible stories include not only universes but also dimensions and everything that can be called a story. the author does not look at the universes as a story, only in Volume 13 chapter 5 the author clearly expresses what the story is for him, and this does not mean the universe is much wider and more comprehensive.

 

[AKUTO123]

So the facts of the story stand against your interpretation. The author intent wouldn't really agree with you either, since what the author intends to happen here is Akuto creating all of (written) fiction and reading through it in order to find a fitting ending for his own story. This part of the story is an analogy for the authors struggle to find a satisfying end for this story of his.

yeah, I 100% agree with that. the author uses Akuto yu to end the story Akuto wants to end the story and fiction, and the entire volume 13 is Akuto's attempt to end the story

 

[Ningenron]

Based on what?

Based on it doesn't act like a higher dimension.....?:

“M-my apologies. I am only saying this for your safety. One week is the longest anyone has been able to remain within the virtual alternate dimension. It is being controlled this time, so you will likely be safe even if you stay longer than that. However, no food is being brought in from outside. One week in-game is equivalent to a dozen or so hours in reality. Your physical bodies will not starve or die of thirst in that time.”

“…I see.”

“Second, even if you die in this world, you will simply return to the real world. In other words, you can return by dying.”

“I believe the condition to leave the virtual alternate dimension is to complete the planned events here.”

The girl was Fujiko. Yoshie realized she was the same one who had made the perceptive realization earlier.

“Yes. Completing the game will likely allow us to leave. I will now give a simple explanation of the game’s rules. Your roles here have been determined by your personalities. While here, you will fight, obtain victory, gain experience, and level up. As this is an experiment into the effectiveness of using the virtual alternate dimension, the combat and magic skills you gain here will remain with you when you return to the real world. Your brain will have learned the behavior patterns. It is the same as never forgetting how to ride a bike once you learn how.”

“We have been given the roles that suit us best in this game world and can leave once the game has been completed. It is the same as before.”

It's virtual and act like a VR Game.

When Morlock shrank, his body did not actually reduce in size. He would send most of his body into a virtual alternate dimension and reform his body with mana. However, Akuto was using that against him.

“Gyaaaaah!”

His scream trailed on and on as his body grew smaller and smaller.

Akuto sealed Morlock in the virtual alternate dimension and set his size at no bigger than a few dozen mana particles.

Lily had learned the plan involved obtaining Keena’s cells and using the mana waves they produced to seal Akuto in the virtual alternate dimension. She had hurriedly held a health examination and laid the trap. As planned, 2V had arrived to obtain Keena’s blood. Lily had not known what 2V would look like, but she had only needed to pursue the person who carried out Keena’s blood.

The plan is to seal Sai Akuto in the virtual alternate dimension. Most likely, he will either be left there with no influence on the outside world or they will kill him inside.”

sometimes it's a place to BFR/Seal people.

Korone stuck a hand into the bag hanging from her shoulder and she pulled out a school uniform. It was a small bag, but most anything could fit inside because the interior was a virtual alternate dimension.

Even so, this is the best option available. Please be prepared.”

Korone reached into her bag and pulled out a futon.

The bag contained a virtual alternate dimension. It was dependent on the energy on the surface, so it was working now and would not once the surface was destroyed. That would likely be the final tool Korone would produce.

Sometimes it just act like a Dimensional Storage.

For that dimension, implied there is infinitely vast space and time, why not 4-D?

And that's makes it 4-D because?

The virtual alternate dimension was commonly referred to as a 4th dimensional space. Researchers’ understanding of it was as follows: “we don’t know why, but there is an infinitely vast space adjacent to our dimension.

Other translation noted that it was called 4-D because it was "a complex enough topic" thus they decided to call it 4-D:

The research was on “virtual
space.”Virtual phase space was a complex enough topic that most people just called it 4D space, and even scientists knew little more than “We don’t know why, but there’s an infinitely vast dimension right next to us.

Everything you throw at it shows nothing that virtual alternate dimensions cannot be 4-D dimensional.

Because those scans weren't about the virtual dimension...

 

[AKUTO123]

Based on it doesn't act like a higher dimension.....?:



It's virtual and act like a VR Game.



sometimes it's a place to BFR/Seal people.


Sometimes it just act like a Dimensional Storage.

And that's makes it 4-D because?

Other translation noted that it was called 4-D because it was "a complex enough topic" thus they decided to call it 4-D:



Because those scans weren't about the virtual dimension...

the quotes you gave Don't refute 4D and the universe. bfr is a place or supplies are stored

 

[Darksmash]

It's not just "all stories" they really go into details on what that entails. They specify that this only entails things that can be put in writing and that it has to be logically consistent. They also make the connection to the philosophical idea of possible worlds and stuff.
This isn't some random throwaway statement in-between, there is an entire paragraph on it which is given great importance.

But these possibilities were directly said to be "combinations" based on a finite space and finite number of characters.

Maybe opening up all the possibilities was a mistake. Space is finite. Characters are finite. But their combinations are infinite. Opening up a possibility meant breaking down the walls of the worlds within Akuto that might have been.

Also I can't help but call this a blatant NLF. We can also write "Omnipotence" or "Mahlo Cardinals" in terms of "words", or any possible extensions of any possible hierarchies. This is a basic NLF, and isn't supported anywhere in the verse

 

[Ningenron]

the quotes you gave Don't refute 4D and the universe

Care to elaborate why? And universe? You're talking about the solar system quotes?

bfr is a place or supplies are

I don't exactly get what you're trying to say here.