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@Frantzy - Technically, even someone with High-Low Regenerationn could also survive, depending on the intensity because base High-Low and base Low-Mid has a significant gap in effectiveness.
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Grasp heart revision
- Thread starter PaChi2
- Start date
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Frantzy12 said:
And still, Regenerationn factor is irrelevant in this topic.
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Grasp Heart... not Despair Aura...
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I state my point extremly clearly. Grasp Heart induce instant death effect.
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No, you're basically dodging the conversation and displaying another ability when qued to show something regarding Grasp Heart.
That doesn't support your point, let alone make you right. Try again.
That doesn't support your point, let alone make you right. Try again.
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Seems you're right, i didnt' do it properly.CinCameron20 said:
Okay, my claim that's all of Ainz's spells that have instant death property have same effect - instant death. All of them described extremely similar, Ainz used spell - enemy drop dead. No words, just instant death.
Isn't first thing after internal rupture is scream or something?
Nothing indicate they even take physical damage to their heart.
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- Thread starter
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Okay. Let me try getting a middle ground:
Grasp heart can be boosted by Ainz's skills. That implies its something more than just crushing a heart.
Grasp heart is stated that it crushes the heart. Therefore, it requires a heart to function.
What if we say that it's an instant death spell that requires crushing a heart as an activation requirement? In other words, when Ainz crushes the heart, a death inducement effect is applied on the target and if this effect doesnt work, stun is applied.
Is this good enough?
Grasp heart can be boosted by Ainz's skills. That implies its something more than just crushing a heart.
Grasp heart is stated that it crushes the heart. Therefore, it requires a heart to function.
What if we say that it's an instant death spell that requires crushing a heart as an activation requirement? In other words, when Ainz crushes the heart, a death inducement effect is applied on the target and if this effect doesnt work, stun is applied.
Is this good enough?
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I still believe that not having a heart is not necessary for the spell to fail.
The hologram of heart appeared in Ainz's hand only when he cast the spell on humans.
It did not happen then he used it on Dragons.
The hologram of heart appeared in Ainz's hand only when he cast the spell on humans.
It did not happen then he used it on Dragons.
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So, which moment of heart crushing would apply this effect then? Initial? Final? How did you crush someone heart if it's constantly regenerate?PaChi2 said:
Next thing is... heart durability. For example in Shalltear vs Charizard, Shalltear implosion was denied because of Charizard durability. (it's just example)
It's greatly complicated this mechanic. Because if initial intention was "Oh enemy resist this skill it's should be resist to instant death effect"... but in this case it's not resist to instant death effect...
Basically we just add nonexistent flaw to this spell.
All that's i'm trying to say it' just overcomplicating. And didn't help that much.
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Yomi stop twisting my Words. Obviously, there are some minor differences like the stun for GH and the AOE for cry of the banshee, as well as the no-resurrection on the True Death. They are all similar however in the fact that they all induce instant-death.
I'm glad we could come to a slight consensus on the nature of the spell (not being biologically dependant), that was the main portion of your argument that I was mainly opposed to.
Also death manipulation and death magic used by ainz should be seen kinda like "Extinguishing the flame of life" (taken directly from the novels). It kills if biologically alive, it can't kill if already dead (Unless used with TGoALiD). Kinda like flipping off the light switch on someone's life. They can technically be revived no matter their Regenerationn if they have the means to be, also it would be completely invalid against low-Godly regen or better.
I don't really like the "You must have a heart" pre-requirement of using the spell. Using the game logic brought over to the new world, it should just be death magic that works against all without immunity/resistance to it (like being dead already). Slimes, for example, should be affected which I think William brought up earlier.
I'm glad we could come to a slight consensus on the nature of the spell (not being biologically dependant), that was the main portion of your argument that I was mainly opposed to.
Also death manipulation and death magic used by ainz should be seen kinda like "Extinguishing the flame of life" (taken directly from the novels). It kills if biologically alive, it can't kill if already dead (Unless used with TGoALiD). Kinda like flipping off the light switch on someone's life. They can technically be revived no matter their Regenerationn if they have the means to be, also it would be completely invalid against low-Godly regen or better.
I don't really like the "You must have a heart" pre-requirement of using the spell. Using the game logic brought over to the new world, it should just be death magic that works against all without immunity/resistance to it (like being dead already). Slimes, for example, should be affected which I think William brought up earlier.
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Err... I re-read the comments to be sure but I still think people ignored my comment on regen, am I wrong?
True Death not only kills the target beyond physical Regenerationn (meaning no regen which isn't godly should be able to regenerate a target of Ainz's ID attacks, unless this is NLF, but I think his statements and the way the trolls had seemingly High-Mid regen and yet got shat on should suffice as evidence) but it blocks ressurrection. If we think about it, that would be like forbidding the soul from ever coming back to life (I don't think why this effect of "turning off the flame of life and preventing it from ever reigniting" would differ from forcing the consciousness to disembody and forbidding it from re-embodying).
Are you guys sure that Low Godly Regenerationn will be enough to stop True Death? I believe not, but Mid-Godly? Sure, might work. I just don't think Low-Godly will be enough.
True Death not only kills the target beyond physical Regenerationn (meaning no regen which isn't godly should be able to regenerate a target of Ainz's ID attacks, unless this is NLF, but I think his statements and the way the trolls had seemingly High-Mid regen and yet got shat on should suffice as evidence) but it blocks ressurrection. If we think about it, that would be like forbidding the soul from ever coming back to life (I don't think why this effect of "turning off the flame of life and preventing it from ever reigniting" would differ from forcing the consciousness to disembody and forbidding it from re-embodying).
Are you guys sure that Low Godly Regenerationn will be enough to stop True Death? I believe not, but Mid-Godly? Sure, might work. I just don't think Low-Godly will be enough.
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I think that Yomi makes the most since here. Gotta agree FRA.
Yomi_Schwarz
She/Her- 2,618
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>I don't really like the "You must have a heart" pre-requirement of using the spell. Using the game logic brought over to the new world, it should just be death magic that works against all without immunity/resistance to it (like being dead already). Slimes, for example, should be affected which I think William brought up earlier.
Nothing really proves otherwise.
to play things safe with no voicing oppositions i think we should stick with what was shown and not too many assumptions (as if we dont have enough already)
thus i still think GH should only work on people who have a heart in their biology and they must die from it being destroyed in order to toggle the "instant death" necromancy effects.
>Also death manipulation and death magic used by ainz should be seen kinda like "Extinguishing the flame of life" (taken directly from the novels). It kills if biologically alive, it can't kill if already dead (Unless used with TGoALiD). Kinda like flipping off the light switch on someone's life. They can technically be revived no matter their Regenerationn if they have the means to be, also it would be completely invalid against low-Godly regen or better.
i especially agree with the bolded parts.
Nothing really proves otherwise.
to play things safe with no voicing oppositions i think we should stick with what was shown and not too many assumptions (as if we dont have enough already)
thus i still think GH should only work on people who have a heart in their biology and they must die from it being destroyed in order to toggle the "instant death" necromancy effects.
>Also death manipulation and death magic used by ainz should be seen kinda like "Extinguishing the flame of life" (taken directly from the novels). It kills if biologically alive, it can't kill if already dead (Unless used with TGoALiD). Kinda like flipping off the light switch on someone's life. They can technically be revived no matter their Regenerationn if they have the means to be, also it would be completely invalid against low-Godly regen or better.
i especially agree with the bolded parts.
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Because instant-death affects all living creatures, even creatures with mid / mid-high Regenerationn. I'm also trying to not make assumptions by taking in the whole of the text and it seems to me that Grasp Heart is an instant-death spell just like the rest and shouldn't be limited by things such as the specific biology of the creature as a requirement to use it. Although we don't have any feats of him using it on living things w/o hearts, game-sense wise it would work on slimes, certain bugs like zerns, etc.
I'm glad we can agree on this point. It cannot kill something that is already dead (unless used with TGoALiD which kills even dead things, constructs, etc.). If it kills said person, and the "Flame of their Life" is extinguished, and they have a way to reignite their own flame (usually godly regen, or a revive-ring like Ainz's/Shalltear's), then it would be invalid.
Also sorry Yomi that we've had to go back and forth like this, I've had a certain understanding of this move through all of my read-throughs of the overlord novels and when I see this move which is an instant-death move being twisted into some sort of tp on the heart, I thought to myself "Where's the instant-death magic?" and it just frustrated me that you couldn't see the death magic paired with this move. I'd really hate for these less-known characters to be lowballed or underutilized.
It's also the reason why I was Adamant that Ainz would win the Fight against Lille, because I know that as soon as Ainz cast his signature death magic that Lille would be instantly killed, yet there were so many people who voted Lille despite Ainz's 1-shot not even taking into account ainz's revival etc. Same with the shalltear thread, Shalltear who makes poison invalid (it even says so on her profile) was being misunderstood to the point where people thought she could be poisoned by Askin despite having many counters, poison being invalid, and having the physical force to put down Askin, etc (including Einjerhar(spelling?)). Ainz and Shalltear have a very small fanbase compared to the bleach fanbase so I felt like people voted bleach without even knowing the other side fully
I think the final point of discussion right now is if Grasp Heart only works on people with hearts, to which I think it should work on all living organisms
I'm glad we can agree on this point. It cannot kill something that is already dead (unless used with TGoALiD which kills even dead things, constructs, etc.). If it kills said person, and the "Flame of their Life" is extinguished, and they have a way to reignite their own flame (usually godly regen, or a revive-ring like Ainz's/Shalltear's), then it would be invalid.
Also sorry Yomi that we've had to go back and forth like this, I've had a certain understanding of this move through all of my read-throughs of the overlord novels and when I see this move which is an instant-death move being twisted into some sort of tp on the heart, I thought to myself "Where's the instant-death magic?" and it just frustrated me that you couldn't see the death magic paired with this move. I'd really hate for these less-known characters to be lowballed or underutilized.
It's also the reason why I was Adamant that Ainz would win the Fight against Lille, because I know that as soon as Ainz cast his signature death magic that Lille would be instantly killed, yet there were so many people who voted Lille despite Ainz's 1-shot not even taking into account ainz's revival etc. Same with the shalltear thread, Shalltear who makes poison invalid (it even says so on her profile) was being misunderstood to the point where people thought she could be poisoned by Askin despite having many counters, poison being invalid, and having the physical force to put down Askin, etc (including Einjerhar(spelling?)). Ainz and Shalltear have a very small fanbase compared to the bleach fanbase so I felt like people voted bleach without even knowing the other side fully
I think the final point of discussion right now is if Grasp Heart only works on people with hearts, to which I think it should work on all living organisms
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I think it's reasonable to say, instant death effect will be induced after Ainz crushed heart projection in his hand.
In this case heart crushing part still present and Regenerationn factor didn't take place, because it's just projection and not real thing.
In this case heart crushing part still present and Regenerationn factor didn't take place, because it's just projection and not real thing.
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I'm pretty sure it has been mentioned before that [Grasp Heart] requires the opponent to have a heart, or an organ that plays a similar role to a heart. Either way, the only reason that it matters is because of the spell's secondary effect, which stuns the target if the spell fails. This makes [Grasp Heart] convenient for gauging the strength and other characteristics of his enemy. That's why Ainz has been using a simple [Death] spell in the two most recent volumes; he knows that it's faster to use it on opponents he knows are weaker, rather than wasting time and mana grabbing hearts.
I don't think we have enough information to say whether it uses actual death manipulation like [Death] does. For now, we should just go with it causing death by crushing the heart.
I don't think we have enough information to say whether it uses actual death manipulation like [Death] does. For now, we should just go with it causing death by crushing the heart.
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He's using it to gauging strength of his opponent because all high level players have some way to defend against instant death.
Not because they take less damage from it.
Enemy resist this spell> Enemy have some means to resist instant death> Enemy must be pretty high level to obtain this resist.
Not because they take less damage from it.
Enemy resist this spell> Enemy have some means to resist instant death> Enemy must be pretty high level to obtain this resist.
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Yes, I agree. I'm just saying that resistance to instant death from Overlord refers to resistance to both death manipulation itself, and any spells and skillls that fall under the umbrella of "instant death", Grasp Heart included. It doesn't necessarily mean that they use real death manipulation.
Yomi_Schwarz
She/Her- 2,618
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@Parkjammer
>It's also the reason why I was Adamant that Ainz would win the Fight against Lille, because I know that as soon as Ainz cast his signature death magic that Lille would be instantly killed, yet there were so many people who voted Lille despite Ainz's 1-shot not even taking into account ainz's revival etc. Same with the shalltear thread, Shalltear who makes poison invalid (it even says so on her profile) was being misunderstood to the point where people thought she could be poisoned by Askin despite having many counters, poison being invalid, and having the physical force to put down Askin, etc (including Einjerhar(spelling?)). Ainz and Shalltear have a very small fanbase compared to the bleach fanbase so I felt like people voted bleach without even knowing the other side fully
To do you a favour let me sum up Lille and Askin in a nutshell.
Lille's Ability "The X-Axis" when used offensively spatially pierces any matter in front of it with no trace.another big thing to note is it dosen't fire anything at all instead,Whatever matter that it was pointed towards at is pierced at the same moment it took lille to attack,X-Axis dosent take "time" into account when attacking.
Ainz's signature spells still take cast time into account (even with Cash Shop items,They still need at least a split second to activate) Plus some take into account a travel time,Enchantment etc. (Even him in character when willing to kill still says the spell name)
Lille's Attacks literally take no time at all.So i dont know why you make it seem like ainz is supposed to be faster than lille,That makes 0 sense
"I know that as soon as Ainz cast his signature death magic that Lille would be instantly killed"
Now that is a true mark of not knowing who the oppositions really are @Parkjammer.That statement triggered the **** out of me.
As for Askin.
I've literally said this for the 8th time.
"Immunity is a NLF term,Resistance is the way to go"
"Shalltear who makes poison invalid (it even says so on her profile) was being misunderstood to the point where people thought she could be poisoned by Askin despite having many counters, poison being invalid"
Askin in a nutshell basically ***** on resistances.
it dosen't matter if you have a high tolerance towards a substance to the point of "immunity",askin adjust's your median lethal dosage to the point contact with said substances will be lethal.
Askin can make a "poison" especially for shalltear and render her invulnerability to certian substances moot by basically increasing her lethal dosage to that substance
Askin dosen't make poison,He creates them for you (i think you misunderstood askin for attacking with existing poisons already,he creates a new one and makes anything "poisonous")
For Example
He can make "Negative Energy" a lethal substance to shalltear by lowering her tolerance to it and increasing it's lethal dosage to her.
Invulnerability and Resistance of any degree means nothing to someone who literally controls it
Do you get it?
Dont mistake me for being aggresive towards you but what your saying is completely hypocritical.
Dont call us bias when you yourself dont even know anything about the opposition
Its not a matter of playing favourites,It's a matter of Looking at the other side of the spectrum
TL;DR
Practice what you Preach.
>It's also the reason why I was Adamant that Ainz would win the Fight against Lille, because I know that as soon as Ainz cast his signature death magic that Lille would be instantly killed, yet there were so many people who voted Lille despite Ainz's 1-shot not even taking into account ainz's revival etc. Same with the shalltear thread, Shalltear who makes poison invalid (it even says so on her profile) was being misunderstood to the point where people thought she could be poisoned by Askin despite having many counters, poison being invalid, and having the physical force to put down Askin, etc (including Einjerhar(spelling?)). Ainz and Shalltear have a very small fanbase compared to the bleach fanbase so I felt like people voted bleach without even knowing the other side fully
To do you a favour let me sum up Lille and Askin in a nutshell.
Lille's Ability "The X-Axis" when used offensively spatially pierces any matter in front of it with no trace.another big thing to note is it dosen't fire anything at all instead,Whatever matter that it was pointed towards at is pierced at the same moment it took lille to attack,X-Axis dosent take "time" into account when attacking.
Ainz's signature spells still take cast time into account (even with Cash Shop items,They still need at least a split second to activate) Plus some take into account a travel time,Enchantment etc. (Even him in character when willing to kill still says the spell name)
Lille's Attacks literally take no time at all.So i dont know why you make it seem like ainz is supposed to be faster than lille,That makes 0 sense
"I know that as soon as Ainz cast his signature death magic that Lille would be instantly killed"
Now that is a true mark of not knowing who the oppositions really are @Parkjammer.That statement triggered the **** out of me.
As for Askin.
I've literally said this for the 8th time.
"Immunity is a NLF term,Resistance is the way to go"
"Shalltear who makes poison invalid (it even says so on her profile) was being misunderstood to the point where people thought she could be poisoned by Askin despite having many counters, poison being invalid"
Askin in a nutshell basically ***** on resistances.
it dosen't matter if you have a high tolerance towards a substance to the point of "immunity",askin adjust's your median lethal dosage to the point contact with said substances will be lethal.
Askin can make a "poison" especially for shalltear and render her invulnerability to certian substances moot by basically increasing her lethal dosage to that substance
Askin dosen't make poison,He creates them for you (i think you misunderstood askin for attacking with existing poisons already,he creates a new one and makes anything "poisonous")
For Example
He can make "Negative Energy" a lethal substance to shalltear by lowering her tolerance to it and increasing it's lethal dosage to her.
Invulnerability and Resistance of any degree means nothing to someone who literally controls it
Do you get it?
Dont mistake me for being aggresive towards you but what your saying is completely hypocritical.
Dont call us bias when you yourself dont even know anything about the opposition
Its not a matter of playing favourites,It's a matter of Looking at the other side of the spectrum
TL;DR
Practice what you Preach.
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>Whatever matter that it was pointed towards at is pierced at the same moment it took lille to attack,X-Axis dosent take "time" into account when attacking.
That's quite strong argument. Can he shot for a long time or he's limited somehow?
I lean toward to Lille victory in this battle then.
As for Askin, why there no Resistance Negation in his profile then?
PS. this discussion kinda derail main topic.
That's quite strong argument. Can he shot for a long time or he's limited somehow?
I lean toward to Lille victory in this battle then.
As for Askin, why there no Resistance Negation in his profile then?
PS. this discussion kinda derail main topic.
Yomi_Schwarz
She/Her- 2,618
- 569
@Mara
X-Axis can be spammed,No ammunition needed obviously
And yes,askin should have Resistance Negation,I'll talk to my bleach lads about it.
We can still sideline a bit,No Harm done
Im still inclined for grasp heart to work on beings who have one or even similar to their biology to induce death.
X-Axis can be spammed,No ammunition needed obviously
And yes,askin should have Resistance Negation,I'll talk to my bleach lads about it.
We can still sideline a bit,No Harm done
Im still inclined for grasp heart to work on beings who have one or even similar to their biology to induce death.
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Well, my best guess is, it's just crushing projection of heart triggered instant death.
I think all living creatures have something similar to heart, so it's obvious and even non living creatures, like construct core or automaton battery. So i think it's can't be considered as necessary condition.
I think all living creatures have something similar to heart, so it's obvious and even non living creatures, like construct core or automaton battery. So i think it's can't be considered as necessary condition.
Yomi_Schwarz
She/Her- 2,618
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No.
We agreed that only a select few Death Spells cant work on some that are already dead and some can work on the dead as well.
Inanimate Objects are out of the question here obviously.
We agreed that only a select few Death Spells cant work on some that are already dead and some can work on the dead as well.
Inanimate Objects are out of the question here obviously.
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"We agreed that only a select few Death Spells cant work on some that are already dead and some can work on the dead as well."
We need proofs, Billy.
The whole assortiment of death magic won't work on those who are considered as an undead, un-dead or on those, who are consist from the negative energy.
We need proofs, Billy.
The whole assortiment of death magic won't work on those who are considered as an undead, un-dead or on those, who are consist from the negative energy.
Yomi_Schwarz
She/Her- 2,618
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Yeah thats the point.
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Okay... give me reason why [Grasp Heart] wouldn't work on construct or undead?Yomi Schwarz said:
Isn't it's basically your claim, that this skill must crush heart or something that represent heart, physically?
I think this spell didn't need to crush actual heart at all and it's just projection that represent enemy heart, and you didn't doing any physical damage with this spell at all.
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Will not work, since undead and golems are immune to such type of magic in-verse. In other words, basic racial resistance says "no". Doesn't play any role, whether they have hearts, what their body structure is, etc.Maraderchik said:
Yomi_Schwarz
She/Her- 2,618
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How do you use Death Magic on something that never had the concept of being alive or dead in the first place?
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For these needs, Ainz keeps TGOALID save.
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Wait I think I know your problem Yomi, it's with this:
>it dosen't matter if you have a high tolerance towards a substance to the point of "immunity"
Shalltear doesn't have high tolerance, poison is just completely invalid in her system and doesn't affect her at all. And I know you'll say "Askin wil Make it effect her" which is NLF of it's own because explaining it in another way, it's kind of like poisoning a rock. Even if you lower a rock's resistance to poison, it still ain't gonna do anything.
Anyways back to the topic, some races like slimes which have no hearts and Automatons which are living robots in-verse would be effected by Grasp Heart.
Undead, Constructs, etc can only be killed via TGoALiD
>it dosen't matter if you have a high tolerance towards a substance to the point of "immunity"
Shalltear doesn't have high tolerance, poison is just completely invalid in her system and doesn't affect her at all. And I know you'll say "Askin wil Make it effect her" which is NLF of it's own because explaining it in another way, it's kind of like poisoning a rock. Even if you lower a rock's resistance to poison, it still ain't gonna do anything.
Anyways back to the topic, some races like slimes which have no hearts and Automatons which are living robots in-verse would be effected by Grasp Heart.
Undead, Constructs, etc can only be killed via TGoALiD
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I know that, but undead in-verse immune to instant death effect. In this thread people claim [Grasp Heart] must crush actual heart to induce this effect (i'm strongly against this). And in this case there no reason why you can't crush someone heart with this spell even if it's undead.William Shrekspire said:
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@Park
Stop derailing, dude.
Edit: sry, mate.
Stop derailing, dude.
Edit: sry, mate.
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What do you mean, I'm not derailing, the conversation is still going the exact way it was before my post.
Mara has a point, there are undead creatures with hearts in the overlord-verse that Grasp Heart wouldn't normally effect
Mara has a point, there are undead creatures with hearts in the overlord-verse that Grasp Heart wouldn't normally effect
Yomi_Schwarz
She/Her- 2,618
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>Shalltear doesn't have high tolerance, poison is just completely invalid in her system and doesn't affect her at all. And I know you'll say "Askin wil Make it effect her" which is NLF of it's own because explaining it in another way, it's kind of like poisoning a rock. Even if you lower a rock's resistance to poison, it still ain't gonna do anything.
"poison is completely invalid in her system"
That's the Point of the Deathdealing,It creates a "special poison" that will especially affect you.
if you are immune to poison in the first place,then he will make a new type of substance that will especially affect you with a special lethal dosage pattern.
if you are immune to it cause your an undead....then he will make a special poison exclusive to an undead.
Askin himself is capable of affecting spirtual beings despite being a soul in the first place yet in some way...he was still able to poison them,Race means nothing
"it's kind of like poisoning a rock. Even if you lower a rock's resistance to poison, it still ain't gonna do anything."
stupid analogy.
As if an inanimate object is at all comparable to a being with an actual biology.
"poison is completely invalid in her system"
That's the Point of the Deathdealing,It creates a "special poison" that will especially affect you.
if you are immune to poison in the first place,then he will make a new type of substance that will especially affect you with a special lethal dosage pattern.
if you are immune to it cause your an undead....then he will make a special poison exclusive to an undead.
Askin himself is capable of affecting spirtual beings despite being a soul in the first place yet in some way...he was still able to poison them,Race means nothing
"it's kind of like poisoning a rock. Even if you lower a rock's resistance to poison, it still ain't gonna do anything."
stupid analogy.
As if an inanimate object is at all comparable to a being with an actual biology.
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Guys, i think it's very different subject.
Similar threads
