• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

PaChi2

VS Battles
Retired
20,720
3,668
Is grasp heart only crushing a heart? Or is it actual death magic? discuss.
 
Should he then also start with buffs like the ones he used against Shalltear, or is that prep time?
 
PaChi2 said:
Minor addition: why dont we assume Ainz starts with the Despair Auras active? I know he doesnt have them activated normally, but its because he can turn them off and doesnt want to kill people at random as that's inconvenient for him. I dont see any reason to assume he doesnt start with basic abilities like that already activated.
If he normally has turned them off he has to turn them on. Unless he has prep time he can not do so before the fight starts, as that would be preperation for the battle.

That he could walk around with them activated isn't important for that. That is a typical weakness of being in character, where a character with more disregard for his surroundings can archive an advantage by leaving such abilities turned on.
 
If he normally has turned them off he has to turn them on. Unless he has prep time he can not do so before the fight starts, as that would be preperation for the battle.

That he could walk around with them activated isn't important for that. That is a typical weakness of being in character, where a character with more disregard for his surroundings can archive an advantage by leaving such abilities turned on.

I mean. He purposefully turns the off to interact with people. In a vsthread he is not supposed to be in a diplomatic situation, so him having them active is common sense as they can even be activated by his own emotions.
 
Mand21 said:
Should he then also start with buffs like the ones he used against Shalltear, or is that prep time?
One thing is buffing himself and another thing is starting with his basic battle skills activated.

Anyway, what about the rest.
 
Since, as per SBA, the combatants have no knowledge of each other, someone like Ainz would never let his enemy strike first. He would probably try to end things quickly. Ainz only lets people strike first when he is absolutely confident they are no threat, and is trying to show off to further his reputation.
 
PaChi2 said:
I mean. He purposefully turns the off to interact with people. In a vsthread he is not supposed to be in a diplomatic situation, so him having them active is common sense as they can even be activated by his own emotions.
Completely agree. This ability works on the NPC and common people, so it's major problem in everyday life. But there no NPC or friendly unit in upcoming battle. All in all there no reason to NOT use this abillity as actived from beginning, it's only purpose to deactivate it basically nonexistent in the first place.

As for possibility where Ainz let someone attack him first: it's the enemy must looks like something he's already know about and know what expect from this enemy.

Grasp Heart is Ainz's standart tool for measurement strength of his enemy.
 
@Pachi, I also think we need to update the description of Grasp Heart because people keep thinking that it's a crushing heart spell, which it is but it is also an instant-death magic.

Not only does it crush the heart, it has the same effect as any of his death spells.

This spell was one that crushed a foe's heart, and among the ten tiers of spells, it was an instant death spell of the Ninth Tier. Many of the necromantic spells which Momonga was adept with possessed instant death properties, and this was one of them.
 
Also it says:

"This sort of magic was Momonga's specialty. Momonga had used his innate skills to increase the chances of instant death, and his necromancy-enhancing abilities improved the effectiveness of ÒÇîGrasp HeartÒÇì even further"

Which I think seals the deal with it being both physical crushing of the heart, and instant-death in the conceptual sense
 
I just finished the anime and every time Ainz let someone strike first,he was absolutly confident as to what they were and their power. Dunno how accurate the anime is, just felt like throwing in my two cents.
 
@Parkjammer we should make a CRT on Grasp heart. I also thought it was an instant death spell because in the overlord setting (Yggdrasil) there were races of all kind and it makes no sense for a ninth tier spell to not work on a lvl 1 slime just because it doesnt have an actual heart.

Also bump.
 
The GH will work even if you don't have an actual heart, or an organ that biologically simulates the heart, obviously. In the same manner as Shalltear was able to drink life essence from the undead skeleton with her Spuit Lance. The basis of these mechanics kinda resembles Information Manipulation stuff. The hologram appearing in the palm of the hand is an aesthetic bauble, that not even responsible for the stun effect. As it appears.
 
Dropping some info.

Ainz is not as Smart as you may think.

Yes he is inhuman and doesn't feel emotion but he is not a genius.

The only reason people think he is a genius is because the people around him somehow believe and suck up to him.

He himself admits that he is not as smart as albedo and demiurge

Jircniv and Renner are smarter than the guy

"Kuhu ― Mm. That's right, everyone, please calm down. Please recall what Demiurge just said. All of this has been arranged. What can we enjoy if not the antics of this clown? Instead, we should be grateful ― because all of this is nothing more than a part of Ainz-sama's master plan. Right, Ainz-sama?"

Hooh… Ainz-sama's plan, huh. I see. A special plan concocted by someone with the same name as me. Making the Baharuth Empire ally with and struggle against Nazarick was part of that plan too,

huh… I have no idea what that's all about. If only I could ask this Ainz fellow about it! However, running away from reality like this would not change anything.

Honestly, Ainz wanted to ask about the details of the plan, and what about Ainz that Demiurge and Albedo were imagining.

However, he could not do that."

-Taken from Volume 9,Part 6,Page 151

In the end of the day

Ainz still has the human mentality of suzuki satoru

Yes, He is Strategic but he's not super genius level.

I think its time to shed this false image tbh
 
Ainz isn't a genius but he is a genius in battle, hence the fact that he can adamantly lecture every single one of the floor guardians, including the geniuses, on PvP combat strategies. He's a master battle strategist even if he's not politically inclined, or necesarily as good at scheming as other members of Nazarick.

That being said, I don't know why you're so adamant about Grasp heart being an instant-death spell
 
Simple Because Its not

Nothing says its conceptual,Nothing says its abstract. Idk why you guys are making a spell that was only used once with no more prior details except a general description super stretched out and blowed out of proportions.

To say its conceptual would mean it can kill beings faaaar above ainz's own league like Gilgamesh and Yhwach,Heck thats basically saying Grasp Heart can scratch a top tiered conceptual being like Multi Eternity lmao xD

Your not getting the point of Grasp Heart.

it's classified as "Instant Death",Yes it is im not trying to deny that.

But How does it virtually induce instant death?


By Simulating a crushed heart.

It's literally that simple

Absolutely nowhere does it say that "Instant Death" spells in overlord are conceptual level

Burden of proof is on you

You need a blatant statement that is not an assumptio to prove something this heavy.
 
Yomi Schwarz said:
Dropping some info.
Ainz is not as Smart as you may think.

Yes he is inhuman and doesn't feel emotion but he is not a genius.

The only reason people think he is a genius is because the people around him somehow believe and suck up to him.
But it's pretty much irrelevant in battle aspect.
 
... Grasp Heart is literally squeezing a heart with Telekinesis to result in instant-death. It's not like a "one-touch-one-kill" ability. If someone has the ability to regenerate from their heart being destroyed, this wouldn't kill them.

Saying it is conceptual is wank, and laughable. Nothing less.
 
Okay, can you explain how in your point of view "Instant Death" works?

In LN restriction about instant death already were stated. You can't kill undead, you can't kill someone with resist, after this spell you can be brought back to life through reincarnation.

If you can just bring your soul back into your body with some side help(or if you got item that can resurrect you) or you may just make new body and put there your departed soul via Regenerationn (any godly). I come to this conclusion checking how death work in D&D which is base material for Overlord.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Death_Attack

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Finger_of_Death_(SRD_Spell)

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Slay_Living

In Overlord case there no save throw but there exist Resistance to this effect.
 
Grasp heart is an instant-death spell which induces... instant death

Now let's look at how it is described in the novels.

"This spell was one that crushed a foe's heart"

This is what the vsbattles description of Grasp Heart mainly focuses on, but what else does it say about it.

it was an instant death spell of the Ninth Tier. Many of the necromantic spells which Momonga was adept with possessed instant death properties, and this was one of them.

Momonga had used his innate skills to increase the chances of instant death, and his necromancy-enhancing abilities improved the effectiveness of ÒÇîGrasp HeartÒÇì even further.


He emphasizes very clearly that it is a necromantic spell that possesses instant-death properties. Just like the following spells which posess instant-death properties

"[Delay Magic: True Death]."

This was a 9th-tier spell.

He did not use it often because [Grasp Heart] was a more convenient spell.

"...Farewell, Gazef Stronoff. I never hated you."

Before anything else could happen, the spell took effect.


This is another instant-death magic of the 9th tier which instantly-kills, and also nullifies ressurectio

Ainz activated one of his abilities, which he had not had the chance to use, and was too powerful for this world.

[Despair Aura V (Instant Death).]

The surging aura billowed out from Ainz.

The Trolls, Ogres and Gu went limp and collapsed like puppets whose strings had been cut, slumping to the ground.

The fallen monsters did not move. It was clear that although their bodies were still warm, the flames of their life had been utterly extinguished.

An old man's voice rang through the silent cave.

"What… what didst...thou do?"

The Naga was curled up into a ball, doing his best to stay away from Ainz. Ainz turned around and replied:

"I simply used a skill. Trolls can regenerate, but that does not immunize them to instant death attacks… honestly, you lot are worthless. I was simply thinking that rather than slaughtering you all outright, I should see what uses you might have, but since they refused to bend the knee, I decided to kill them all."


This is another example of Ainz using instant-death.

Even more supporting that Grasp Heart has an instant-death effect and not just a physical effect is the fact that when he uses it on dragons, twice it is shown that they instantly die, their heart isn't just crushed.

The thing is that I feel like I should explain to you guys is instant-death is a brand of effect in overlord universe that is paired with spells like Grasp Heart, Despair Aura, and True Death.

Only someone outright ignorant or who is uninformed would think that Grasp Heart was a simply telekinetic heart crushing technique. Something as mundane as that wouldn't be on the smae tier as a spell that outright kills people (the 9th Tier).
 
@Maraderchik That's why it's been agreed on by most of the community that Ainz's instant-death doesn't work on Low-Godly characters that can die and resurrect themselves, at least without TGoALiD
 
"You idiot! You've just thrown away the only chance you had to survive! No, I should kill youÔöÇ"

"[Grasp Heart]."

And with that, his father's body slumped powerlessly to the ground.

All eyes went to the body of the strongest Dragon here.

The way he did not move at all looked like he was sleeping. Of course, that was definitely not the case.

No Indication of Ainz Having to actually grasp the heart for the instant-death to kick i

The Dragon swiped its claws at Ainz.

They were fast, but not as fast as the Troll he had fought recently.

Ainz did not dodge them. He took the Dragon's attack head-on. The Dragon -- who thought Ainz could not evade in time -- grinned broadly, but when he realized that Ainz had no need to dodge, that grin froze on his face.

After making sure that the Dragon knew that, Ainz cast a spell.

"[Grasp Heart]."

Ainz's gaze moved from the Dragon who had collapsed like his father, and turned to the others.

Once Again, No indication of it working any differently than any of the other instant-death spells Ainz has used
 
Yomi Schwarz said:
Simple Because Its not
Nothing says its conceptual,Nothing says its abstract. Idk why you guys are making a spell that was only used once with no more prior details except a general description super stretched out and blowed out of proportions.

To say its conceptual would mean it can kill beings faaaar above ainz's own league like Gilgamesh and Yhwach,Heck thats basically saying Grasp Heart can scratch a top tiered conceptual being like Multi Eternity lmao xD

Your not getting the point of Grasp Heart.

it's classified as "Instant Death",Yes it is im not trying to deny that.

But How does it virtually induce instant death?


By Simulating a crushed heart.

It's literally that simple

Absolutely nowhere does it say that "Instant Death" spells in overlord are conceptual level

Burden of proof is on you

You need a blatant statement that is not an assumptio to prove something this heavy.
Yomi knows Overlord way better than me, i trust her judgment, therefore...I completely agree with her.
 
Kami I know overlord just as well or better than Yomi, I basically read through the novels on loop lol. I'd prefer if you would choose a side based on the facts rather than just reputation
 
Also Yomi's logic is the same as saying "Cry of the banshee" doesn't instantly kill, it just simulates a sound that overloads the brain.

No

Overlord is fairly simple in the fact that instant death spells done with instant death magic have an instant death effect
 
Ok.

Imma ask everyone to drop the grasp heart stuff, and dont derail this any further.

That's not the main focus of this thread. Simple as that. We are here to discuss how we assume Ainz will react in a battle situation against something he has 0 knowledge about supposing that he wont just flee to Nazarick because there is no Nazarick to begin with.
 
In Yggdrasil, Ainz tended to examine the system of techniques and movements of the opponent, and with professional embitterment always poured into the toilet the first round in the PVP.

In New World, Ainz is too fearful, stingy, paranoid, apathetic, to allow himself that luxury. Yes, and besides that, the responsibility for the residents of Nazarick, who acquired personalities.
 
PaChi2 said:
Ok.
Imma ask everyone to drop the grasp heart stuff, and dont derail this any further.

That's not the main focus of this thread. Simple as that. We are here to discuss how we assume Ainz will react in a battle situation against something he has 0 knowledge about supposing that he wont just flee to Nazarick because there is no Nazarick to begin with.
Alright

with all due respect to the other side,i'd prefer to continue the grasp heart shit elsewhere since i wasnt able to comment a few hours ago
 
William Shrekspire said:
GH works in abstract manner, yes. A lot of proofs within the novel text, confirming this thesis.
But it's not conceptual.
I think you need to choose better wording.

Saying "Abstract Manner" is a lot worse than "conceptual"
 
i just really dont know where you guys are getting this conceptual and/or abstract grasp heart????

y'all keep saying "It's 100% sure-kill instant death" just cause the word "instant death" is included in it pretty much in a nutshell.

What i want is proof that Grasp Heart is supposed to be a "conceptual" sure-kill

Also sorry about this but @Parkjammer,I cant take it,your claims are just filled with holes

>No Indication of Ainz Having to actually grasp the heart for the instant-death to kick i

>Once Again, No indication of it working any differently than any of the other instant-death spells Ainz has used

Lmao And? I could say the same and state nothing shows that he didn't destroy a heart to induce it

Not being stated=/=Didn't Happen

>Even more supporting that Grasp Heart has an instant-death effect and not just a physical effect is the fact that when he uses it on dragons, twice it is shown that they instantly die, their heart isn't just crushed.

Uhm Excuse me,What? I could literally counter this claim by saying

They Instantly Die.....Because their heart was crushed........


>The thing is that I feel like I should explain to you guys is instant-death is a brand of effect in overlord universe that is paired with spells like Grasp Heart, Despair Aura, and True Death.

i think it should go without saying that not all instant death spell work the same way park,i think you should stop this mentality of comparing one with the other when they dont activate or work the same

>
Once Again, No indication of it working any differently than any of the other instant-death spells Ainz has used

Uhm..yes it does...name any other spell that ainz uses that crushes a heart


>Grasp heart is an instant-death spell which induces... instant death

Yes,And how does it induce instant death? By Crushing your heart....


>Okay... by that logic how'd you resist grasp heart? I'm pretty sure you can't rise your heart durability in game.

Simple

By having no heart in your biology

By having Resuscitation

By having enough regen to regenerate a heart....

>Also Yomi's logic is the same as saying "Cry of the banshee" doesn't instantly kill, it just simulates a sound that overloads the brain.

My Logic is finding the reason this "Instant Death" Occurs

How does it cause instant death? By Creating a sound that overloads the brain.

I think this logic is better than saying

"Instant death instantly kills anything no matter what the variation is cause....instant death"

>Overlord is fairly simple in the fact that instant death spells done with instant death magic have an instant death effect

A Very Simple Minded Logic.

Again you are ignoring the nature of how this spell's are casted in the first place and how they are shown to work and just simply claiming "instant death is instant death"

That is why i cant accept these claims.It blatantly ignores the very nature and how these spells are casted in the first place and just assuming a very NLF-ish nature of "it works cause it says they are instant death" like ainz gave a very clear and blatant definition of instant death.I really dont think you should take the name as seriously as this

 
William Shrekspire said:
"The method varies, however; some users may halt vital biological processes or attack the soul directly. Others affect their target on a more abstract level, simply causing them to die for no discernible reaso..."
I'll accept that definition open heartedly with no rejection if and only if i see GH being blatantly stated in the novels as abstract levels and/or GH hurting something that is abstract in nature.

>What do you think bout Ainz' persona? ovo

I think he's cute lmao xD
 
"Death" being 'abstract' in nature is pretty much stated. IDK about GH. PaChi2 could say on this topic much more than I do.


Neia stared, dumbfounded at how fast a living creature could run when its demise was at hand.

However, the Sorcerer King's spell was faster still.

"How boring. — ÒÇîDeathÒÇì."

Nothing happened. There was no big explosion, no cataract of roaring lightning.

Buser simply fell to his knees and keeled over.

That was all.

"Well, it's a shame about the information… well, that's how it is. Do you object, Ms. Baraja?"
 
Just thought of something I'd appreciate if you could answer this @Park

If every spell was just insta death with no differences then why is there multiple insta death spells in the first place????? O_____O

i legit wanna know man,pls tell me.
 
Back
Top