Grasp heart revision

[Maraderchik]

I didn't see any problem with non-corporeal (for example ghost) thing, but i'm sure it's can't affect abstract things, like laugh or anger.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

>Well it kills objects without the concept of life or death, so it conceptually manipulates the targeted objects on a very small scale. Normally you wouldn't be able to kill air, yet he can manipulate the fact that air has no concept of death and he can kill it anyways.

This is honestly getting tiring at this point.

Again

Killing Inanimate objects=/=Transcending the concept of life and death

You guys are stretching things out of proportions here.

You dont need to be alive to technically "die"

If somebody were to wipe the consciousness of an inanimate being with sentience, that wouldn't be conceptual wouldn't it?

Also where are you getting the "He gave them life" thing?

Cause all im seeing is they were killed in context,heck that could still mean they we're wiped off or destroyed.

All im seeing from you guys is

"He "killed" the air and rocks he must have given them life and immediately killed them completely,Sasuga Ainz-sama"

Even though that wasn't even elaborated

Pls stop riding on to some umbrella term

 

[Maraderchik]

>You dont need to be alive to technically "die"

Well, this is exactly what you need to be to die. Otherwise it's plain destruction.

 

[Wokistan]

Daemons in 40k resist a lot of deathhax due to explicitly neither being alive nor dead, so yes, you generally do have to be alive to die. If his deathhax kills things that aren't alive, that means it's more impressive deathhax.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

And? "die" is an umbrella term that can contain destruction.

And wtf are you guys talking about saying he's somehow conceptual cause he can give the concept of life to those who are inanimate?

That is basically the ability of giorno from Jojo's bizarre adventure,but do we claim he's somehow conceptual by "giving the concept of life" to those that are inanimate?

**** No.

 

[Wokistan]

It actually would be. It doesn't mean he has wide scale concept hax, considering it's only applicable for that, but if he can impose life on to something that lacks the concept, that life manip is based on manipilatiim of the concept of life. Doesn't mean he can do other concept hax, and it's just listed as life manip, but still works like that.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Yeah it's life manipulation.

I am still 100% against anything that is saying ainz is conceptual or abstract.

Again

Kill is an umbrella term.

And the logic that he is conceptual cause he induces the concept of life to inanimate objects is basically tantamount to saying giorno from JJBA should also be conceptual.

 

[Wokistan]

Yeah I'm not saying that Ainz is a conceptual being for being able to do some small scale concept manip through "killing" inanimate objects. It wouldn't even be listed as concept manip, it'd just be listed as death manip.

 

[Wokistan]

You'd just need to demonstrate reisting deathhax on that level to resist that of Ainz, rather than just resisting less impressive deathhax or being a robot or something.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Yes agreed.

 

[Maraderchik]

It's more like he can give concept of death to inanimate objects instead of giving concept of life.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

It's more like he can give concept of death to inanimate objects instead of giving concept of life.

Same shit applies TBH.

And its you guys that said you would need "the concept of life" in order to kill things not me.

And for the third time.

"Being Killed" is an umbrella term,i doubt the method was even elaborated enough to give way for you guys's outlanded assumptions.

 

[Maraderchik]

>And its you guys that said you would need "the concept of life" in order to kill things not me.

That's true. Thing must be alive to die, in this case things can be granted concept of death even if they didn't have concept of life. That's what Ainz did.

Even the air — which was not even alive to begin with — fell into death.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Wait.

I just realized this.

Why are you guys taking a figurative expression into literal terms?

The way its structured seems like just an expressive personification.

Why are you guys taking this literally again?

Not that my point is nulled either way anyways.

 

[Maraderchik]

Well i taking it literally because he'd used death manipulation spell, and it's make things dead. Thats all.

It's not like Brain "light speed slash" which kinda baseless and figurative.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

It is baseless and figurative since it wasn't even elaborated that far

For all you guys know this could just literally mean like a leaf falling into the ground,you cannot escape the fact that this could be taken in a figurative sense

And again,Death is an umbrella term for the 5th time

And the brain thing was also baseless since its an outlier.

 

[Belyompusct]

Yomi, what the ****? If you carefully read the novel, you get an idea that Ainz didn't kill the ******* air in the literal sense; that is, he didn't disintegrate or deflate it, forming a vacuum dome of outer space. All you're doing now is substituting concepts, as you please. Shame on you.

"Even the air — which was not even alive to begin with — fell into death. For over one hundred meters in all directions, the air was no longer breathable. If any living creature tried to respire within that area, their lungs would be corrupted by the deadly air, and they would die"

If before, the air provided life for the living beings, now the deadly air guarantee death for the breathing creatures. According to your particular measuring scale, how far is it represented as conceptual killing?

 

[Belyompusct]

Why are you guys taking a figurative expression into literal terms?

"Then, Ainz's trump card took effect. In that moment — the world died.

This was not metaphorical. Everything died."

Bitchslapped by Maruyama himself.

 

[OpMasada]

I think what william said proves its not concept manip, otherwise the air would be dead/not present in the literal sense.

 

[Wokistan]

It's conceptual death manip. Killing inanimate objects that otherwise lack a concept of death requires such, and this specific example shows it twisting the normally life giving concepts of air to ones of death. It's listed as death manip, not concept manip, but you'd have to resist conceptual level death manip to resist TGoALID deathhax.

 

[Mand21]

Do you guys really think there is only a single way of killing the air?!

Goddamnit, the concept of Death applied to inanimate things does not need to result in erasure or deflation. They're inanimate things to begin with, their "death" is whatever the author decides it is. There is no objective terms for what the death of unkillable things means.

By killing things the way Ainz does, which includes killing inanimate objects, he basically adds the concept of death into these things and forces it to fit into them somehow. In other words, it alters things on its area of effect to add them a concept in potentiality (They now can die) and updates their status (they are now dead), fitting it however possible.

You cannot possibly say this isn't a metaphysical power, and I mean metaphysics as in the philosophical study of ideas and concepts. It's an ontological modification of something which cannot die, so that it now can.

Geez. How in the world comes you guys took so long to understand such basic things such as that a passage which states itself as literal is literal, and that it did what it took to make itself possible (conceptual manipulation, as already determined)? Do you fear the narrator is lying to you or something?

 

[Belyompusct]

I meant that Wail of Banshee, reinforced with TGOALID, didn't literally drowned out the concept of air inside the specific area, but "re-concepted" the air so that it fit in the definition of "deadly". Thank you, Mand.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

@William

Literally wtf?

I've been saying all this time

Death is an umbrella term

And i 100% disagree with anything saying ainz is conceptual.

What the **** are you saying?

>Yomi, what the ****? If you carefully read the novel, you get an idea that Ainz didn't kill the ******* air in the literal sense; that is, he didn't disintegrate or deflate it, forming a vacuum dome of outer space.

Uhm ok.

Thats my point thanks for agreeing i guess?

 

[Wokistan]

Yomi, it doesn't seem like anyone's advocating abstract or conceptual existence for aniz. Just that his death manip works on a conceptual level, which you yourself said you agreed with me when I said that.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

It's conceptual death manip. Killing inanimate objects that otherwise lack a concept of death requires such, and this specific example shows it twisting the normally life giving concepts of air to ones of death. It's listed as death manip, not concept manip, but you'd have to resist conceptual level death manip to resist TGoALID deathhax.

I thought we agreed thst TGOALID

Cant kill those that are low godly and above and those who resurrect.

Now that wouldn't be the case if it was conceptual wouldn't it?

 

[Wokistan]

It's not conceptual in the sense of "kills concepts", but in the sense of "manipulates concepts to kill". I doubt it kills low godly+ without a showing, but you would need to have more than just a baseline deathhax resist to resist.

 

[Belyompusct]

Cant kill those that are low godly and above and those who resurrect.

Firstly, it has nothing to do with the current topic under discussion.

Secondly, Shalltear wasn't killed after 12 seconds and wasn't really resurrected subsequently due to the consumable item. At the end of that interval, she managed to activate the statue, stored in her pocket subspace, to nullify Ainz's TGOALiD+ CotB performance.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Alright anything else to discuss?

@Wok

I think it just "uses death and life manipulation to kill"

We can still use the Gold Experience analogy to deny coneptuality.

 

[LordGinSama]

Nothing "Conceptual" here is going to get accepted unless it actually meets our criteria for concept manipulation. Our rules have changed for concept manipulation and getting it passed has become harder. Refer to our Conceptual Manipulation page. Unless it actually meets one of the criteria's here and you can prove it's legit sufficient scans then we won't consider it as concept manipulation. The Burden of proof falls on you to prove its real concept manipulation.


Now I'll add in my own two cents. There's absolutely nothing here that suggests any of the hax here can be considered to be "Conceptual." the feats are vague and don't meet our criteria for concept manipulation, as far as I'm aware. At best this would just mean that the hax it potent, just not potent on a conceptual level. With that being said I'll have to agree with Yomi.

 

[PaChi2]

I dont know how this turned into conceptual stuff, but saying that Ainz uses the concept of Death with TGoALiD is a huge stretch. Its just death manipulation that works on inanimate stuff.

Can we end this discussion? The main point has been already answered.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Thank you knight

 

[LordGinSama]

Just add that he can kill intimate objects, it's not conceptual. It's the equivalent of me saying that Magella has conceptual poison because he can poison intimate objects. It just doesn't work like that.


@PaChi


Yeah, it's probably best that you close this thread.

 

[PaChi2]

If anyone can briefly give the conclusions, I will gladly close this. I wont let any more abatract/conceptual discussion, make another thread for that. If there is another reply regarding that topic Im closing this.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Nothing really changed.

Only clarification on ainz's character

And Graps Heart needing to kill the target with a heart crush to induce the effects i.e opponent needs a heart and needs to die from it to induce death manipulation or else it just stuns

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

So yeah i think this can be closed now

 

[PaChi2]

I swear this is getting ridiculous.

Im told in the other thread that the discussion in here isnt concluded.

Rip.

If this is an attempt to bring conceptual or abstract stuff up again, Im closing this.

 

[Maraderchik]

Well, it's can't be concluded with this:

>And Graps Heart needing to kill the target with a heart crush to induce the effects i.e opponent needs a heart and needs to die from it to induce death manipulation or else it just stuns

Because there are only two obstacle for this kind of spells:

1) Target is immune due to his speice trait, - undead and construct.

2) Target have resist to instant death effect.

if your statement based only on this sentence:

This spell was one that crushed a foe's heart, and among the ten tiers of spells, it was an instant death spell of the 9th tier.

Then i can bring two more thing to prove my opinion, that this spell didn't need crush actual heart but only it's hologram projection:





There's nothing to approve that this spell need affect heart physically to induce instant death.

Thus, opponent didn't need actual heart to be affected by instant death effect. Only obstacle to this spell is immunity or have some means (item or natural resist to instant death) to resist this effect.

 

[Mand21]

The conclusion is that Ainz manipulates concepts to kill. How otherwise do you even intend to put his Death Haxxes as being able to kill inanimate things? Do you really intend to call it "death manipulation with extra hax" without analysing what that entails? If it kills inanimate things, it's already working at a conceptual level, even if it doesn't "kill concepts".

Concept Alteration: The ability to manipulate, alter, or change concepts. By using this ability, concepts themselves can be changed in a variety of ways. The concept can have have an object added to it, an object taken from it, or change the current principle of the concept. If a concept is changed, the world is altered in some way to fit this new conceptual definition, though the extent of this varies by the type of concept being manipulated
As you can see, that's exactly what Ainz's power is doing. It inserts the object of "Death" to the form of what it touches. That's what The Goal of All Life is Death does.


But if all you want to do is talk about Grasp Heart and nothing else, then fine. Close this. But I believe there is evidence enough that his power does qualify for concept alteration. Just not destruction or creation.

 

[OpMasada]

The conclusion is that Ainz manipulates concepts to kill. How otherwise do you even intend to put his Death Haxxes as being able to kill inanimate things? Do you really intend to call it "death manipulation with extra hax" without analysing what that entails? If it kills inanimate things, it's already working at a conceptual level, even if it doesn't "kill concepts".


Concept Alteration: The ability to manipulate, alter, or change concepts. By using this ability, concepts themselves can be changed in a variety of ways. The concept can have have an object added to it, an object taken from it, or change the current principle of the concept. If a concept is changed, the world is altered in some way to fit this new conceptual definition, though the extent of this varies by the type of concept being manipulated

As you can see, that's exactly what Ainz's power is doing. It inserts the object of "Death" to the form of what it touches. That's what The Goal of All Life is Death does.


But if all you want to do is talk about Grasp Heart and nothing else, then fine. Close this. But I believe there is evidence enough that his power does qualify for concept alteration. Just not destruction or creation.

No, it doesnt what ainz did is too vague to be considered concept alteration you are literally saying he changed how a concept works because the air was poisonous, ever heard of carbon monoxide poisoning?

 

[Aizenishere]

@OpMasada

Oh gee m8 I didn't know a rock could die of carbon monoxide poisoning. TIL

EDIT: It sounds like Ainz pulls a King Hassan and hands over the concept of death so everything can die.