Grasp heart revision

[Mand21]

OpMasada, you're going completely against the Occam's Razor while pretending you're following it! It's a Death Hax. How in the world do you think death hax would suddenly become chemistry? It's exactly because it's vague and because it simply goes with "everything literally died" that you can't say it was figurative death. It is stated: it was literal death. The rocks died. The air died. It didn't get poisonous. The transmutation wasn't the main effect. The effect was death, applied to rocks and air.

This can only be done with conceptual alteration or, as Wokistan has put it, death manipulation at a conceptual level. It didn't necessarily change the concept of death nor did it destroy any concepts: it just forced things that shouldn't die, to die. And this is something which, I feel forced to reiterate since it doesn't seem to get into your head, can only be done with ontological alteration of the victim which is unable to die.

 

[Yomi_Schwarz]

Wow.

How the ****?

Or.... or.... He uses life and death hax to do it.

Concept alteration when it meets no criteria lmao

 

[Aizenishere]

So then we chalk up him killing everything including things that can't die to really good death Hax. "see that rock there? It was never alive but it's dead now!"

 

[SchroKatze]

Killing something thats no even alive (Objects and etc) isn't conceptual manipulation. Its just pretty good death manipulation. Unless theres is an specific statement saying that Ainz is killing on the conceptual level or manipulating the concept of death, nothing "conceptual" is happening.

 

[SchroKatze]

I can bring 3 cases of "killing objects" that were stated to be conceptual manipulation. If Ainz fulfilled those criteria, he would have the same thing.

 

[Aizenishere]

Then my good sir I trust your judgement

All I ask for is an explanation other than "really good death Hax" as to how he can kill something that isn't alive to begin with without manipulating (or in this case I suppose inserting) the concept of death?

I ask this out of curiosity because I'd really like to know then I'll be on my merry way

EDIT: nvm I had a Good Samaritan explain to me. I concede that it isn't concept manipulation but just really good Death Manipulation and it gets rid of any resistance and immunities (I think) to said death manipulation/ instant kill moves

 

[Mand21]

How's that not conceptual? I haven't had any good samaritan.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Because there is no mention of him applying or altering the "concept"/"idea" of death, something that is required for us to judge it as concept manipulation.

Without that, it is just really good death manipulation, and that's all the explanation we have.

 

[SchroKatze]

Death can be qualified as "Stop to work". Killing objects is like stopping them from working. That's why the earth was turned into sand: its nutrients and "life-sustaining" capabilities stopped. The same goes for "killing air". It just turned into poison because its functions stopped.

 

[Maraderchik]

PaChi would be pissed...

Btw let's get back to grasp heart.

At this moment there two different opinion (or if someone else want bring his own opinion, please do it):

1) Graps Heart needing to kill the target with a heart crush to induce the effects i.e opponent needs a heart and needs to die from it to induce death manipulation or else it just stuns

>This spell was one that crushed a foe's heart, and among the ten tiers of spells, it was an instant death spell of the 9th tier.

2) Opponent didn't need actual heart to be affected by instant death effect. And there just enough to crush projection of heart in Ainz's hand to let it work.

 

[Mand21]

Death can be qualified as "Stop to work". Killing objects is like stopping them from working. That's why the earth was turned into sand: its nutrients and "life-sustaining" capabilities stopped. The same goes for "killing air". It just turned into poison because its functions stopped.

That's making assumptions on what the author meant with the way he killed the earth and air, without proof to say that's what he was thinking.

Anyways, I guess the consensus is "TGOALID is ridiculously broken and could potentially take a crap on enemies way beyond Tier 6-C but it's not concept-based"?

 

[SchroKatze]

And you are assuming thats "killing an object" is the same as "manipulating the concept of death" without any proof. I'm just using the definition of "death" to justify the phenomena in a logical way.

 

[Mand21]

I stopped with the assumption. My message kinda implicitly admits defeat. Also, that's Tu Quoque, and the right explanation is basically that it's such a powerful death hax it killed even rocks. Why upon dying earth became sand is something you can't assert without evidence.

And it wasn't like I had no evidence, either. It was just proven false.

 

[Aizenishere]

@Maraderchik

If he can use grasp heart on undead after TGOALID then the second option is the thingy thing

 

[Belyompusct]

Yes, Ainz can use any of his death-oriented spells under this strengthening.

 

[Aizenishere]

Then it's option two of what the lad mentioned above no?

 

[Maraderchik]

@Maraderchik
If he can use grasp heart on undead after TGOALID then the second option is the thingy thing

Ainz's trump card, [The Goal Of All Life Is Death] strengthened the effect of instant death magic and skills. Thus augmented, those instant-death effects could bypass any immunities or resistance and kill their targets after a certain amount of time had passed.

This spell was one that crushed a foe's heart, and among the ten tiers of spells, it was an instant death spell of the 9th tier.

Sure, why not?

 

[Aizenishere]

@Maraderchik

I can't tell if that's sarcasm or not but yea you proved my point so ty m8