Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 1: Splitting the Pokemon Canons (Massive Pokemon CRT)

[Ayewale]

Let's see how this plays out.

The Pokemon verse on the VSBW is one of the biggest categories in the website, featuring hundreds of Pokemon and dozens of trainers all scattered across the games, animes, movies, other games and more. Unfortunately, however, it's gigantic size is complimented with a shitton of inconsistency. Pokemon, as we know it, does not have a hard canon of any sort. Even if you take just the games, there's the fact that there's two versions of every game, they are rpgs where the protagonist has a huge amount of choice, the remakes are just as canon as the originals, and the timeline as of Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire is literally split in two. And what about the side-games? Is Let's Go canon? How about Pokemon GO? What about Colosseum & XD, or Pokken and Conquest? Multiply this incosistency to literally every medium Pokemon is in and you have an indexing catastrophe.

So what the wiki's solution to this? To ignore everything and consider it all canon.

As of right now and the past few years, nearly all pokemon profiles fuse together the games, spin-off games, anime, youtube miniseries and manga into one full package, and only very special pokemon get medium-specific profiles. What this means is that powers, abilities and feats for Pokemon across the entire spectrum are considered to be hard canon; in-game mechanics scale to anime battles which scale to manga shenanigans. From a vsbattling perspective, this makes actually creating the profiles much easier, since you don't have to make like five different keys for each Pokemon...

But it's also made the verse irreparably broken from just a basic indexing standpoint. Our current policy on making Pokemon profiles composite is based on literally nothing, breaks quite a rule or two about the site and has legions of evidence weighing against it. I am now going to list every reason why profiles should absolutely not be composite.

1. It is not supported by canon. Even on a basic level I couldn't find any source online that supported the idea that literally every piece of Pokemon media shares the same canon. Not a single one. I have been a Pokemon fan since 2011 and I would be shocked if anyone could find a statement strong enough to support the whole verse being composited profiles. The examples you'll see below will only further prove that the verses are not in any way designed to be composited.
   
   
2. It breaks crossover rules. Pokemon Conquest is a crossover between Pokemon and Nobunaga's Ambition (game director said so outright) and Pokken Tournament is a crossover between Pokemon and Tekken. In addition, the producer of Pokken has no idea if Shadow Mewtwo is canon or sort. These games absolutely shouldn't scale to the main timeline (anyone here gonna scale Ace Attorney to Marvel vs Capcom???) yet the wiki policy says that all games are considered canon, and Mewtwo has a shadow mewtwo key.
   
   
3. It breaks Alternate Universe rules. From what I can tell, the wiki does not automatically scales alternate universes to one another unless there is distinct proof that these universes share very similar histories and/or rules. The Ultimate universe in marvel doesn't scale to the 616 universe, and Batman doesn't scale off The Batman Who Laughs. So even under the assumption that each canons are merely separate universes in a multiverse (which has no proof at all), they still should not be composited.
   
   
4. We don't automatically consider side-games canon. For multimedia franchises on the scale of Pokemon, little side-games are not automatically considered to be secondary canon unless explicitly stated so by the company that created it. This unofficial rule is in place so that Star Wars and Marvel threads don't completely ******* combust, and it should apply to Pokemon too. That means in the future, starting now, pokemon games not integrated with the mainline games somehow shouldn't be considered for game profiles and should have their own keys if any. This seems obvious but again, it's official wiki policy that all games are to be scaled to the main profiles.
   
   
5. The stories, plots and characters are completely different between mediums. Each Pokemon medium, from the (various) games to the anime to anime miniseries have several wildly different interpretations of the exact same events and characters, to the point where it is frankly impossible to assume they share the same continuity. There are so many examples it'd be hard to count, but:
   1. Spoiler: Shortlist of Character Examples

      Red is either a dumb, quirky yet energetic kid (Pokemon Adventures Manga) or a silent, brooding super-trainer that's aged to the point of being 25 (the games).
      
      Gary is either Ash's rival with a different set of Pokemon (the anime), Red's rival (the games) or Red's rival (the manga).
      
      Lysandre's entire backstory, interactions with Zygarde and fight with Alain in the anime are nonexistent in the games and manga.
      
      Alain in of himself is a major character in the anime and one of Ash's top-tier rivals but flat-out doesn't exist in the manga or games.
      
      The Kanto Elite Four are ******* evil in the manga. Additionally, Lance can read the minds of Pokemon, Lorelei can throw ice dolls to freeze people and Agatha can mind control people.
      
      Manga Red's Eevee can change between different Eeveelutions at will.
      
      Type immunities that are literally listed on most pokemon profiles do not exist in the anime, or at least aren't actual immunities.
      
      Several moves work different between the manga, anime and games. For instance, Will-o-Wisp does literally no damage in-game but is treated as a regular attack in the anime. Hypnosis in the games only puts you to sleep (it's stated directly) but in the anime it works like actual hypnosis.
      
      Deoxys is a completely different character depending on the medium. In the movies, he displays an impressive combo of cloning, regeneration and telepathy that he has no showings of in-game, and most importantly he can switch between forms at ease at will, which definitely doesn't exist in the games. In the manga, the meteor was actually shown to be able to destroy the entire-earth; in-game, it was simply predicted to 'destroy the entire world' by ancient cavefolk. Not exactly enough for a planetary level rating.
      
      Legendaries as a whole have far more dramatic scaling in the manga than in the games, as the vast majority if not all of them don't have a single hint of the feats they are ascribed in their actual games (or animes, for the most part).
      
      Many Pokemon's pokedex entries are not stated in the manga, which strips them of many key feats and abilities that they could use. Equivocating pokedex entries is also very, very wrong, given that pokedex entries don't even stay consistent between different games and timelines.
      
      The TCG has several different forms and attacks that are not present in any of the canons.
   2. Spoiler: Shortlist of Plot Examples

      The anime, games and manga all adapt the same plot-lines, many of which with the same characters who share appearances. This makes it possible for these stories to coexist just on a basic level, as they could absolutely not be happening at the same time, nor in the same universe.
      
      The anime, games and manga seemingly have different cosmologies, too. The anime has an Unown Dimension, as well as different dimensions for Arceus, Dialga and Palkia,while the games have the Interdream Zone, a dimension between dreams and reality. Ultra Space is also not described quite as explicitly in the manga as it is in the games, where it's a verifiable universe in it's own right. So they do not even share cosmologies nor universes. We would refuse to scale AUs for less.
      
      Character in the manga die rather frequently, while death is virtually nonexistent in the main Pokemon games. These are main characters too, from champions to major antagonists to the protagonist (kind of).
      
      The plots differ in an irreconcilable way, from Zinnia leading the 'reformed' Magma and Aqua to the Kantonian Elite Four being evil (both manga) to Lysandre trying to use Zygarde as a weapon (anime) to whatever the **** happens in Let's Go Pikachu and Eevee.
      Some people might suggest that these examples are too sparse and that they should not speak for the whole verse, but truth be told the examples above not only cover the entire verse but are also a speck in an ocean of examples. It would be very difficult to find characters that stay consistent between different mediums than to find inconsistent ones, and the differences make each canon far too distinct to simply assume each of them function in the same way.

The TL;DR of it all is that (a) Pokemon profiles, be them trainers, pokemon or otherwise should not be composited profiles, (b) there are numerable and very clear separations between different canons and (c) even if we assume that these canons are just adjacent universes, they are far too different to equalize (and it wouldn't match wiki policy anyways). I'm aware that this is a massive change that would require a shitton of work, but before we even got to doing any of that we'd need to ask another question: What ARE the Pokemon Canons?

I've spent a lot of time thinking about this and I've come to a pretty definitive list.

• Games
  • The Normal Timeline: This refers to all games that don't feature Mega Evolution. This would be RBY, GSC, RSE/FRLG, DPP/HGSS, BDSP, BW & BW2 and Pokemon Legends Arceus. PLA's status is likely to change as Hisuian mons have been spotted in Scarlet & Violet trailers.
  • The Mega Timeline: This refers to all games that feature Mega Evolution, namely X/Y, ORAS, SM & USUM. The main difference between them is that, should a pokemon have different feats for different games, they should have different keys. Not too important of a distinction but could be relevant.
    • Pokemon Sword and Shield and it's DLC does not feature Mega Evolution so it likely falls into the Normal Timeline.
  • Let's Go Pikachu & Eevee: Far too distinct from RBY and FRLG to fall into the same timeline as those games but doesn't fit the Mega Timeline's depictions of certain characters (namely Red), so these should have their own key.
  • Pokemon Go, Ranger Colosseum & XD: Due to their compatibility with the mainline games, PGO falls into the Mega Timeline while Colosseum, XD and Ranger fall into the Normal Timeline.
  • Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Portrays Pokemon societies that are defiant to every other canon. Profiles based off these should always get a page due to the stark differences between it and the mainline games.
  • Pokemon Conquest, Masters & Pokken Tournament: Conquest and Tournament characters should get their own wholly unique pages (if any), as they are stated outright to be non-canon crossovers. Masters is a curious case, as though the overall game shouldn't be canon, trainer characterizations and details ARE. Therefore, Pokemon Masters is semi-canon to the Mega Timeline.
  • Everything Else: Gets it's own page if applicable.
• Anime:
  • The actual anime series in of themselves: All canon by default. This should include any 'filler' arcs like the Orange Islands, and any shorts related to it. Also includes Arceus Chronicles.
  • Youtube miniseries: Namely Pokemon Generations, Pokemon Evolutions, Hisuian Snow, Origins & Twilight Wings. The former is said to be a reinterpretation of the games, so probably Normal Timeline. Each individual episode of P.E. should default to the region they portray, while Hisuian Snow should get it's own profiles outright, if any. Origins & Twilight Wings are very much Normal Timeline canon, too.
  • The anime movies: Complicated. They are apparently all canon until the I Choose You! movie, but the sources for this are mostly unofficial pokemon wikis and the fact that some of the movies are apparently given passing mentions in the anime. I unfortunately do not watch the anime enough for an excellent breakdown, but as far as I am concerned..
    • All of the movies are canon (unless explicitly stated otherwise) to the Anime Timeline.
    • 'I choose You', 'Secrets of the Jungle' and 'The Power of Us' are all their own canon and should get their own profiles.
  • Animated shorts should also be canon to the anime.
• Manga:
  • All of the chapters of the Pokemon Adventures manga are hard canon.
  • The one-shots are not canon to the manga timeline.
• Trading Card Game:
  • Debatedly canon, but I don't think there's any form of 'canon' within the card games anyways, unless the weird moves they bring up count? But I do not think we know enough about those moves to use them, so the TCG seems inapplicable for battleboarding purposes.
• Detective Pikachu: I think I read somewhere that it's supposed to be canon, but it doesn't show any signs of that. Any profiles based off this would therefore fall into it's own timeline.

Yes, this is far from a perfect list and would need some fine-tuning for specific pieces of media, especially the ones that are not mentioned. Yes, the games, anime and manga do reference each other sometimes. And yes, this would be quite a lot of work. But Pokemon is probably my favorite series of games ever, and I think the verse delivers a lot better than it currently has. And do note, even though I've gone through a lot of stuff already, this is only the beginning of the CRT. The Pokemon Verse on this wiki has a lot of problems, but many of these are unfixable if we can't address the biggest issue; the lack of a split between different canons despite the split being self-evident and undeniable.

Counterarguments (Not comprehensive but what I expect)​

• The different mediums are similar enough to be scaled to each other. Aside from the fact that we don't do this for other verses, they really aren't all that similar. Each universe has different cosmologies, vast deviations in the feats of individual mons, greatly different stories, and vastly different if not unrecognizable characters. You'd be hard-pressed to even consider all the games canon to themselves, much less everything else.
• They all share a canon because...No, they do not. And even if they did, I already addressed that the different multiverses would be far too different to scale off one another, thus this separation would be required anyways.
• They reference each other a lot. Well, no shit. When you have multiple different mediums all inspired by the same game, they're obviously gonna wink and nod to each other, especially when it's for a franchise that's 25 years old. This doesn't mean they share a canon, though. It's not nearly enough proof. Having some consistency between different mediums is the core of literally every big media franchise; we don't equalize Star Wars movies and Lego Star Wars just for having the exact same plot and trying to be accurate, do we?
• You didn't provide enough evidence. For every character you bring up that's consistent in all 3 mediums, I will bring up 2 more that are not and are more important. There's so much evidence, I just tried to narrow down examples so that this thread doesn't become a tome.
• This would take too much work. It would take a lot of effort, as I've acknowledged many times. Thankfully, we're not alien to putting a lot of work into the wiki, or else we wouldn't have 30,000 articles, would we?
• How would we reformat the verse? Admittedly, the answer to this are things that I want to elaborate on in another CRT. I feel like it would be irrelevant to bring up plans for the future if I couldn't even get this to be accepted. However, the basic idea I have is that Pokemon would have different profiles for the manga, anime and games (if applicable: some Pokemon remain similar enough to have 2 or even one) and then the keys would be split by evolutions. If absolutely necessary, other keys for stuff like the Mega Timeline/Movie-only could be added, though this will almost never happen based off my own knowledge of the verse. I think the organization of Red's profiles is the standard to follow.
• You don't have enough experience with the wiki to try and reform an entire verse. I don't, but this CRT isn't me trying to become the head honcho of Pokemon. The ideal scenario is this getting accepted, some supporters rolling out slow changes and me helping/smirking from a distance. Additionally, I've gone through these changes with several other members, some moderators and others well-acquainted with Pokemon, before posting this CRT.
• It wouldn't produce that big of a change. Patently untrue. Every single legendary Pokemon on the wiki would at least get a huge revision based off these standards, and several trainers (if not all of them) would get very large redos of their pages as well. Even for individual Pokemon, many of them have showcased moves that work very differentlyin the manga/anime or have different feats outright in the manga/anime.
  • Also, even if it didn't change that much...that's an argument in my favor, because it means the workload is reduced, not that the canon-splitting is any less valid.

Agree: Ominous_Blund3r, The_Smashor, Andytrenom, Purgy, Armorchompy, JustSomeWeirdo, Gilad_Hyperstar, Maverick_Zero_X, Paul_Frank, Scottycj256, LephyrTheRevanchist, Hasty12345(?), Rikimarox2, Aachintya31, Antvasima, Cropfist, Pikaman, Colonel_Krukov, Reiner, Confluctor, Foxthefox1000, Jibz, Marcusbwfc, Agnaa, Moritzva, GodlyCharmander, TheGreatMaster12, Mariogoods, AKM Sama, Executor_N0, DarkDragonMedeus, Hop_Hoppington

Neutral/Middle: y3p_owo, Saikou_the_Lewd_King

Disagree: ProfessorKukui4Life, Arceus0x, Thelastmlg, Purmeenant, XSOULOFCINDERX, Sero, Bobsican, StrymULTRA, Yemma670, GyroNutz (? said his response was preliminary),

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

i might have just missed something but why would there be separate timelines for games with and without megas

 

[Ayewale]

i might have just missed something but why would there be separate timelines for games with and without megas

In Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, Zinnia explicitly talks about how there are two different timelines in Pokemon: one where Mega Evolution exists and one where it does not. She says that this is a result of the Ultimate Weapon in Pokemon X & Y being fired.

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

huh, ok

 

[Foxthefox1000]

This seems to make sense but I'm not that knowledgeable on how and why we treat the verse the way we do. I'll probably wait until there's more input before I cast a vote

 

[Ayewale]

This seems to make sense but I'm not that knowledgeable on how and why we treat the verse the way we do. I'll probably wait until there's more input before I cast a vote

From what I have researched, the main reasons why are due to (a) convenience and (b) because the creators of the different canons have expressly stated that they each try to be somewhat accurate to the idea and image of Pokemon and that none of them are trying to be their own wholly unique thing. The former is pretty much a non-factor, and the latter is silly to use as proof of a composite; just because they're keeping the spirit of Pokemon intact doesn't mean they all share a canon.

 

[DemiiPowa]

Read through and I agree

Separate portions of Pokemon should be counted as different canons unless there is reason to think two specific canons are linked.
We've already known this since XY and ORAS where its directly stated that there are multiple different universes/timelines and some have mega evolution while others do not. It would make no sense to not treat the anime, manga and video game counterparts the same as well when it's clearly obvious that characters are not the same across different mediums. (Look at Red, Blue/Green Green/Blue, Serena etc for examples)

 

[Cyberblader90]

there's two blogs for canonicity

Canon Analysis: Pokémon

Two things motivated me to create this blog. The constant discussions about the Pokémon canon, that led to the creation of this blog. Connected with this is the overall use of “canon” by nearly everyone, with concepts that I don’t think should be as universal as they are. So, I decided to create...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Pokemon's canon

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Ayewale]

there's two blogs for canonicity

Canon Analysis: Pokémon

Two things motivated me to create this blog. The constant discussions about the Pokémon canon, that led to the creation of this blog. Connected with this is the overall use of “canon” by nearly everyone, with concepts that I don’t think should be as universal as they are. So, I decided to create...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Pokemon's canon

vsbattles.fandom.com

Did you go through my post before linking those? My counterarguments directly address the both of them. They both function off the logic of 'since they have lots of references to the games, they are canon to the games' despite that not only being incredibly silly and dismissive of their differences but also violating site rules (we do not cross-scale AUs like this for practically any verse, much less consider those AUs canon).

Both of these blogs exist to justify the composite profiles, and not the other way around.

 

[The_Smashor]

I fully agree.

By the current logic of Pokemon profiles, we're basically doing things as though we'd composite this Amazo and this A.M.A.Z.O., or this Ultron and this Ultron.

It's fine for versus shows and stuff but it really dosn't work with our standards.

 

[Andytrenom]

I think this makes sense. Although I will admit my experience with Pokemon mostly extends to the anime and two games the OP makes a strong case for profiles being split

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Completely disagreeing and I’m going to make a full on counter response to this.

 

[Ayewale]

Completely disagreeing and I’m going to make a full on counter response to this.

Remember, "they reference each other a lot" is nearly enough to justify universes being cross-scaled to each other, nor is them sharing a source material, Not my opinion, it's just site rules. I'm just saying this ahead of time so that I don't have to repeat myself later, just in case

 

[Executor_N0]

Did you go through my post before linking those? My counterarguments directly address the both of them. They both function off the logic of 'since they have lots of references to the games, they are canon to the games' despite that not only being incredibly silly and dismissive of their differences but also violating site rules (we do not cross-scale AUs like this for practically any verse, much less consider those AUs canon).

Both of these blogs exist to justify the composite profiles, and not the other way around.

Except, that isn't the case for my blog.

My blog works under the idea of a consistent worldview and settings and how they can be shared in a multimedia series beyond the scope of the same continuity. If you think that my blog works under the function of "they make references, so it's canon" basically means that you didn't read my blog, or at least I did a terrible job on it to give you the feeling that was the basis for the blog. I did make tie-in events and easter eggs at the end of the blog, but that was more support to be consistent with older blogs instead of the whole focus.

The entire idea of the blog is around the terms Sekai-kan (Worldview in Japanese, the general background of a fictional series including its rules) and the Settei (Settings in Japanese, the background information and general rules of a world that make up a Sekai-kan/Worldview) and how in a series like Pokémon there's a lot of control over those aspects to make sure that the Worldview and Settings remain consistent and not broken. This analysis makes no use of "there are references, so it's canon", but rather "it doesn't matter if none of those works is even canon to each other, but what is the worldview and settings shared by them".

For example, IDW Sonic isn't canon to Game Sonic, however, it still follows guidelines in regards to the worldview and settings of the game, although we can by no means just use IDW Sonic as evidence for in-game material, we know that there's a lot of game background material that is first stated on IDW-related stuff and overseen by SEGA (Such as the workings of various elements as teased by Ian Flynn), so even though the comics are canon, some background elements used in the comic are canon to the background of the games and the comics still remain the only on-screen examples of such things.

With Pokémon, this is a different story due to all the control that Pokémon Company as a control organization is in regards to that. Returning to the Sonic example, SEGA's control over the series isn't consistent, they are changing their rules and guidelines at an incredible pace and basically, an entire decade of lore is being destroyed and remade nearly every week, so they are a terrible example at that. Pokémon, however, remains mostly consistent, and that grants the possibility of crossing over setting information between works due to the necessity of the settings and worldview being the same.

So that is the aspect in which I tried to use my blog, the idea was just for being able to use background information for the universe itself between works even if they are unrelated story-wise because the background setting needs to remain the same for general things. There are details that of course aren't consistent (Such as the ones that I gave example in my blog from Masuda himself), although there's some vagueness depending on the person who is detailing the workings of the series (Recent Masuda stuff goes a lot in the direction of sharing the same worldview and being mostly the same world, while old Satoshi Tajiri stuff was a lot into they being different worlds without following the same rules), the current structure if for a consistent worldview in contrast to the old times (In fact, as I showed on my blog, the author in charge of Special/Adventure details a lot about how the control over the settings and worldview increased over time and he would by no means be able to do the same things he did in the early years).

So, yes, I don't think most Pokémon media share the same world or even multiverse if this is something you think about, I just think that since the creation of Pokémon Company more often than not the worldview remains consistent between most work with in-universe rules needing to be created every time something breaks those rules, it's not about individual characters or anything about that, but general worldview settings of how the world works. The multiverse kind of matters for certain characters (Like the Creation Trio), but that isn't really what my blog is about.

 

[Andytrenom]

Can you point the evidence that shows what's being monitored and subjected to these strict rules are the capabilities of the characters, rather than artistic aspects of the work

I haven't read you blog thoroughly but the focus of this rules seem to be much more in keeping the spirit of Pokemon intact, for the experience of the general fan rather than keeping things like power levels or abilities consistent across the board.

 

[Ayewale]

Big Post

The reason why I summed up your blog as being 'references make them canon' is because that's the only part of the blog that could be used as 'proof' that the verses share the same canon and all crossover with each other. Because otherwise, though it's a well-written and detailed piece, it offers literally nothing in terms of justifying composite profiles (which is what the blog is used to justify on the wiki).

Various mediums sharing a worldview and a setting is not proof that they can be cross-scaled by each other. Neither is the fact that The Pokemon Company holds strict control over it's IP; that simply means that they are trying to keep it consistent and recognizable because it's literally the biggest media franchise in the world. I would argue that every single big IP out there strives to have it's multimedia (for the most part) resemble one and another, simply because doing otherwise wouldn't make sense; we do not use this to equalize any other multimedia verse though, so it should not be used to equalize Pokemon, at all.

Simply sharing a similar background and nature isn't grounds to equalize the 'background' (which, for the record, is an extremely vague term, as the 'background' of a verse could refer to...everything pretty much?) (and alternatively, we don't just scale 'the background' to each other, we scale everything) otherwise several verses in this wiki would be equalized. For example, most of the Transformers cartoons share a similar 'background in that there are autobots and decepticons fighting a galactic, million-year Civil War for Cybertron, and the battle is taken to Earth, Optimus Prime and Megatron lead both opposing sides, the robots all possess the ability to transform, et cetera. Why not equalize them since every show shares several elements between the two of them?

On the topic of different adaptations, how about adaptations Lord Of The Rings? If you want to talk quality control, the books literally have an entire legal organization dedicated to them called The Tolkein Estate that does nothing but monitor how the works are used and adapted. Outside of the books, Christopher Tolkein literally dedicated his entire life to making sure Tolkein's legacy is properly adapted and preserved, which includes the movies. The LOTR trilogy movies are infamous for how much dedication Peter Jackson put into it, how much he tried to painstakingly capture Tolkein's vision. It goes without saying that they are extremely similar in a huge amount of ways, from background to characters to plotlines. And yet, the movies and books are not canon to each other, and their profiles are split. Why not equalize the books and the movies?

The answer to why Transformers, Sonic, LOTR and everything else are split is because no amount of artistic control, per the wiki's guidelines, is a substitute for equalizing the verses. Pokemon is not any more monitored than these verses (in fact it is infinitely less monitored than LOTR) and should not be taken as an exception.

Edit:

So, yes, I don't think most Pokémon media share the same world or even multiverse if this is something you think about, I just think that since the creation of Pokémon Company more often than not the worldview remains consistent between most work with in-universe rules needing to be created every time something breaks those rules, it's not about individual characters or anything about that, but general worldview settings of how the world works.

What exactly are we disagreeing on? That is the entire point and purpose of this thread.

 

[Andytrenom]

Can someone explain the context here

"GameInformer: What’s Lance up to these days?

Ohmori: I saw him in Pokémon Masters the other day…

GameInformer: Really? I thought it would have been the other way around!

Masuda: No no, that wouldn’t work, because I don’t know if you’ve seen the Detective Pikachu movie, but that one Psyduck had that much destructive power. Imagine if it were bigger!"

 

[Ayewale]

Can someone explain the context here

"GameInformer: What’s Lance up to these days?

Ohmori: I saw him in Pokémon Masters the other day…

GameInformer: Really? I thought it would have been the other way around!

Masuda: No no, that wouldn’t work, because I don’t know if you’ve seen the Detective Pikachu movie, but that one Psyduck had that much destructive power. Imagine if it were bigger!"

It's a joke from this interview, which is mostly a light-hearted, comedic piece between Ohmori, Masuda and a Gameinformer representative. Nothing in this article should be taken as fact since it's clearly not meant to be a serious Q&A and the specific quote is a meme regardless.

 

[Ayewale]

Can you point the evidence that shows what's being monitored and subjected to these strict rules are the capabilities of the characters, rather than artistic aspects of the work

I haven't read you blog thoroughly but the focus of this rules seem to be much more in keeping the spirit of Pokemon intact, for the experience of the general fan rather than keeping things like power levels or abilities consistent across the board.

Based off the fact that the power levels for different characters and Pokemon vary dramatically depending on the medium, it seems like the quality control regards only artistic aspects and not hard rules. In the blog itself he does have several quotes about how the directors have to 'follow certain guidelines' and 'keep things consistent' but these could easily be summarized as being artistic expression.

In fact Executor himself says as much; the blog is there to prove that the pokemon mediums have a consistent worldview and a setting, not that the capabilities and AP of the characters are all the same. Which are two very different things.

 

[Purgy]

Completely agree and it should have been done long ago, though given how much of an affect this will have on the Pokemon profiles, I can't see it passing.

 

[Ayewale]

Completely agree and it should have been done long ago, though given how much of an affect this will have on the Pokemon profiles, I can't see it passing.

I feel like it not passing because it would change so much is more reason for it, no? If the profiles are that ****** up changes should probably be made before the next game comes out.

 

[Armorchompy]

I fully agree with this thread, some vague WoG that's not really talking about canon and some fanservice references can't explain all the major inconsistencies between mediums and canons (it gets as simple as moves working differently in the anime compared to the games really). Even if they were technically considered the same canon, portrayal is so blatantly different that it'd need to take precedence.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Remember, "they reference each other a lot" is nearly enough to justify universes being cross-scaled to each other, nor is them sharing a source material, Not my opinion, it's just site rules. I'm just saying this ahead of time so that I don't have to repeat myself later, just in case

"Reference each other alot" is a blatantly damn understatement for this particular verse, but doesn't matter. Diving into this now.

Im completely opposed and against any level of seperating the pokemon canons, in any way, just like every other attempt made by people who simply don't want to except the fact that Pokemon is a verse with a blatant unique takeaway on canonicty. Addressing each part of the OP below.

​

The Pokemon verse on the VSBW is one of the biggest categories in the website, featuring hundreds of Pokemon and dozens of trainers all scattered across the games, animes, movies, other games and more. Unfortunately, however, it's gigantic size is complimented with a shitton of inconsistency. Pokemon, as we know it, does not have a hard canon of any sort. Even if you take just the games, there's the fact that there's two versions of every game, they are rpgs where the protagonist has a huge amount of choice, the remakes are just as canon as the originals, and the timeline as of Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire is literally split in two. And what about the side-games? Is Let's Go canon? How about Pokemon GO? What about Colosseum & XD, or Pokken and Conquest? Multiply this incosistency to literally every medium Pokemon is in and you have an indexing catastrophe.

Im loving how the very opening of this thread makes claim of there being allegedly a "shitton" of inconsistency....without actually talking about whats supposedly inconsistent here.

But putting that little nudge aside

Theres not a single thing listed in this quoted section thats "inconsistent" and for the same reason given every time something like this comes up thats what we people call common sense: Multiverse! And no, this isn't some excuse im pulling out of a hat, given the fact that even from literally just the games information and nothing else from any other source, the existence of the multiverse and all of these different actions and choices being a thing is just your typical dose of alternate universe syndrome.

Two versions of every game? Remakes as canon as the originals? Gee. I wonder. It's not like we have games like Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire, where its even outright specified by the in-universe characters themselves that alternate realities, with similarities and differences, exist amongst each other. And I ain't just talking about Zinnia's own take, but you know, people Archie and Maxie, who just happen to sit and wonder about if worlds where they would be the ones to try capturing Groudon & Kyogres power for themselves exists. Which is, guess what? Exactly what happens in the opposite world of the opposite game.

It's not like we have Sun and Moon, whose whole entire plotline is literally about alternate universe craziness taken to some extreme levels, where we not only get the world of the opposite game you have as a possible world to travel into, but even worlds where there are versions of old team leaders from old games that have successfully completed their goals without a child being their biggest destined obstacle.

Players with a lot of choices? In an rpg series where the cosmology takes things even crazier with establishing that even things down to the INDIVIDUAL GAME CARTHRAGE is considered it's own universe? Thanks to tthings lik the awesomeness of Black and White and the Entralink treating your own game as a seperate world?

I can go on, and on, and on, and ON. And we havent even gotten to how the other canons play into this. We can discuss things like Let's Go, Conquest and whatnot later on, but this shoddy attempt at establishing "inconsistency" just because the OP says so needs to get called out and dealt with. There's nothing inconsistent about alternate realities doing similar and different things from one another, and this is something people need to simply accept the fact on. This is multiverse shenanigan's at play here, at high levels, and using a dose of parallel world treatment doesnt remotely mean there's inconsistencies here.

Especially under this supposed narrative that literally everything in Pokemon is just taken and accepted here. It's not.

So what the wiki's solution to this? To ignore everything and consider it all canon.

As of right now and the past few years, nearly all pokemon profiles fuse together the games, spin-off games, anime, youtube miniseries and manga into one full package, and only very special pokemon get medium-specific profiles.

Im going to take a minute to just give some major clarification about these "very special pokemon" that get pages from single canons. And by major clarifications, I mean an explanation that is very simple, should be very simple and able to be understood on why they get medium-specific pages for good reason. These "very special" pokemon are in fact not so special. These pokemon get single-canon pages because these pokemon are treated as their own unique characters with their own unique powersets.

Something that needs to be drilled into everyone's minds and understood about Pokemon here is that the vast majority of our pokemon pages fuse canons together (for reasons that'll be covered below) because our Pokemon pages are SPECIES profiles. They don't index the capabilities of a single version of a pokemon but the general outlook of everything THAT Pokemon is naturally capable of. Something extremely different than your typical character profile that indexes THAT character. This is one of the biggest reasons why Pokemon has a "composite"-like treatment of their pages, and I use quotations because the pages aren't an actual composite, but simply the nature of how the verse works.

The "special" pokemon that get pages from single-canons are the ones that are, in fact, the pokemon who are treated as outliers. Unique cases where theyre actual characters and NOT a species. Such as Ash Ketchum's Pikachu, his main partner pokemon from the anime continuity. Or you know, the human characters who are the same as every other character page on this site.

The fact of the matter is most of our pokemon pages that get "composited", and the trainer-specific pokemon and characters like the humans and trainers who don't get that treatment, have justified reasoning for why thats the case and aren't just treated that way for the hell of it. And one of those reasons is for one being a general onlook on a species of pokemon, and the other being indexing what a specific pokemon is capable of with their specific powerset.

What this means is that powers, abilities and feats for Pokemon across the entire spectrum are considered to be hard canon; in-game mechanics scale to anime battles which scale to manga shenanigans. From a vsbattling perspective, this makes actually creating the profiles much easier, since you don't have to make like five different keys for each Pokemon...

But it's also made the verse irreparably broken from just a basic indexing standpoint. Our current policy on making Pokemon profiles composite is based on literally nothing, breaks quite a rule or two about the site and has legions of evidence weighing against it. I am now going to list every reason why profiles should absolutely not be composite.

Based on "literally nothing" is nothing but a joke, as i'll be diving into.

1. It is not supported by canon. Even on a basic level I couldn't find any source online that supported the idea that literally every piece of Pokemon media shares the same canon. Not a single one. I have been a Pokemon fan since 2011 and I would be shocked if anyone could find a statement strong enough to support the whole verse being composited profiles. The examples you'll see below will only further prove that the verses are not in any way designed to be composited.

Before I even start, im going to be reposting a link to one of the most detailed and well-explained blogs made for discussing Pokemon canon, made by @Executor_N0 himself, as I highly doubt the OP has read any of it. The blog has gone into extensive extensive detail, with plethora of evidence, explaining that Pokemon is a franchise with a very large multi-layered world view of it's setting, and that basically every form of Pokemon media is strictly monitored to make sure it fits what TPC accepts for the franchise's view.

But other than that? We also have cases in which the anime and games are both explicltly stated to be parallel worlds, with characters from both continuties existing in one another to support said statement, and the fact that a Pokemon species page is not in fact an actual composite, it's indexing what the whole species is generally and naturally capable of, excluding special variants that do not receive this treatment.

1. It breaks crossover rules. Pokemon Conquest is a crossover between Pokemon and Nobunaga's Ambition (game director said so outright) and Pokken Tournament is a crossover between Pokemon and Tekken. In addition, the producer of Pokken has no idea if Shadow Mewtwo is canon or sort. These games absolutely shouldn't scale to the main timeline (anyone here gonna scale Ace Attorney to Marvel vs Capcom???) yet the wiki policy says that all games are considered canon, and Mewtwo has a shadow mewtwo key.

Define an acttual crossover here (and no, don't hide behind the game director using this term), because Pokken & Pokemon Conquest especially do not act like an actual crossover.

First off, im going to quote the very first thing from the crossover page here:

"A crossover is the placement of two or more characters originating from different continuities/franchises/verses into a single story."

Here is the huge problem with this argument against the likes of Conquest and Pokken, and it's rather easy to notice. Neither game acts like an actual crossover, especially in terms of feat indexing and battleboarding. Why? Because the franchises involved for these games are not fighting each other, something that our crossover rules are explicitly and literally oriented for in the first place. Pokemon Conquest in no way shape or form an actual crossover between Pokemon and Nobunaga's ambition. Same with Pokemon and Tekken. Not in the way that actually matters for this site. For one, they are both collaborations between the two participating franchises, and Ex's blog discussing them even has the creators specifying that.

Pokemon Conquest:

IGN: Was it difficult meshing these two very different franchises into a cohesive whole? I was incredibly impressed by how well the two worlds work together. How did you achieve that balance?

HK: Rather than combining Nobunaga's Ambition and Pokémon as they are - because those are just really two distinct kinds of worlds, and it probably wouldn't work too well - we used an element of fantasy. We've created this fantasy world. From that aspect, it was easier to put the two titles together. Especially because it's a collaboration. If both titles were really trying to bring themselves out, bring their own personas out, too strongly, then it probably wouldn't work well. At Tecmo Koei, we really respect the Pokémon Company, so we studied the game in terms of, well, how can we appeal to the Pokémon user? Especially since a lot of them are kids. How can we appeal to these kids, to the younger users?

Pokken:

I know that the collaboration between Pokémon and Tekken is also under development. In the case of Pokémon, there are many parts hard to develop due to its own rules that are quite strict ?

Harada: That’s right. In the case of Pokémon, as you said, the rules are strict. There are a lot of child users, so there are a lot of things to consider. But surprisingly, they were generous about'violence'. When I submitted 20 ideas, they accepted all but one. It was 10 times easier to work than I thought. However, as soon as I suggested fighting with trainers, not Pokémon, I was rejected within 2 seconds.

As you can see, both of these games are not actual crossovers between the franchises working with Pokemon, they are collaborations. You don't see any Tekken characters running around in Pokken now do you? You don't see Pokemon fighting against characters from Nobunga's Ambition either. Both games don't involve any sort of actual fighting between franchises or even any conflict between one franchise or the other, so what actual part of anything from these two games break our crossover rules when we arent scaling either franchise to the other? We don't scale them because they can't be scaled, and they can't be scaled because they don't fight or interact with each other in the way that matters for our standards. They are games that are still pokemon games keeping the main element of pokemon fighting pokemon, centered around elements from the franchises they've worked with. So using "should we scale X verse to Y verse now?" as a copout argument against rejecting both of these games (like the OP mentioning Ace Attorney being scaled to Marvel vs Capcom) goes out the window. It's a blatant and complete false equivalency on every single level.

Not to mention

In Conquests own case, we have another reason for using it that the OP hasn't tackled against and is something that can confidently place it in the same multiverse and setting as Pokemon: The game's portrayl of Arceus.

Exactly like how the main games and other Pokemon media do, Conquest still goes with how Arceus is treated in the former. Arceus is still treated as the creation Pokemon who created everything in the world, as well as the creator of the Ransei region. If you needed a reason to consider Conquest as part of the multiverse to be used, having the literal god Pokemon that's established as the creator of everything like in the mainline series should be reason enough.

1. It breaks Alternate Universe rules. From what I can tell, the wiki does not automatically scales alternate universes to one another unless there is distinct proof that these universes share very similar histories and/or rules. The Ultimate universe in marvel doesn't scale to the 616 universe, and Batman doesn't scale off The Batman Who Laughs. So even under the assumption that each canons are merely separate universes in a multiverse (which has no proof at all), they still should not be composited.

Other than the fact that, again, the majority of Pokemon profiles are indexing the species and not a variant member of said species

How in any way do Pokemon's canons break alternate universe rules? You don't make any effort at explaining such a thing with any sort of example, and even then, this is a franchsie where in every single god damn universe at play, the same freaking thing happens. The character going on a pokemon journey capturing and battling Pokemon. Facing the gyms, the league, the legendaries place in the storylines, etc etc etc. I could go on and on and on about these universes sharing unbelievebly similar histories, rules and worldviews. Hell, this is something that EX's own blog would explain and prove better than I ever could especially.

There is literally nothing from these universes that breaks AU rules.

1. We don't automatically consider side-games canon. For multimedia franchises on the scale of Pokemon, little side-games are not automatically considered to be secondary canon unless explicitly stated so by the company that created it. This unofficial rule is in place so that Star Wars and Marvel threads don't completely ******* combust, and it should apply to Pokemon too. That means in the future, starting now, pokemon games not integrated with the mainline games somehow shouldn't be considered for game profiles and should have their own keys if any. This seems obvious but again, it's official wiki policy that all games are to be scaled to the main profiles.

All im hearing from this particular point is one thing: Whataboutism

Who cares about what other verses do with their continuties, because we aren't talking about them here. We're talking about Pokemon. Canon is something that is absolutely not a universally wide common treatment, every verse treats canon different, and none of the ones you've mentioned have remotely near the same kind of mulit-layered worldview or rules that Pokemon does. Not even a single statement of any sort of canon being an AU to another, whereas Pokemon does for at least some of their materials (ex: game and anime) to establish that as a rule.

I don't care what Star Wars and Marvel do because they have nothing to do with this thread about this verse and they don't treat canon the same way as Pokemon does. Simple as that.

But you know what franchise on this site that is the only one here that does have a similar treatment to Pokemon? Digimon.

1. The stories, plots and characters are completely different between mediums. Each Pokemon medium, from the (various) games to the anime to anime miniseries have several wildly different interpretations of the exact same events and characters, to the point where it is frankly impossible to assume they share the same continuity. There are so many examples it'd be hard to count, but:
   1. Spoiler: Shortlist of Character Examples

      Red is either a dumb, quirky yet energetic kid (Pokemon Adventures Manga) or a silent, brooding super-trainer that's aged to the point of being 25 (the games).
      
      Gary is either Ash's rival with a different set of Pokemon (the anime), Red's rival (the games) or Red's rival (the manga).

Spoiler: Shortlist of Character Examples

Congradulations, you've unlocked the formula to parallel world syndrome. How is any of these even remotely a knock against the canons being connected? No one is saying they take place in the same world but take place in the same damn multiverse. You know, where things similar and different can happen all together?

And id like to just mention that Red, Blue and Green, one of which is the counterpart of Gary, exists in the same game where Jessie, James and Meowth are the literal antagonists (Let's Go!) games.

1. 1. 
      
      Lysandre's entire backstory, interactions with Zygarde and fight with Alain in the anime are nonexistent in the games and manga.
      
      Alain in of himself is a major character in the anime and one of Ash's top-tier rivals but flat-out doesn't exist in the manga or games.

Blatantly wrong, because in fact, Alain's existence is strongly implied to be IN the games, and is actually one of the common cross-canon references between the game and anime.

Steven in the ORAS Delta episode literally says this.

"I wonder what happened to him and that black Charizard of his..."

A black Charizard obviously being Mega Charizard X. In a Hoenn remake with Mega Evolution, something Alain's character is explicitly centered around. And more importantly, Alain is the ONLY character in the entirety of the Pokemon franchise Steven knows that owns a mega Charizard X, to have battled alongside him, against him and interacted with him.

Even Ash is indirectly confirmed to exist in the games (barring Masters where hes going to outright appear) based on the fact that his own pokemon exist in the games. Such as Ash's Lycanroc, a unique variant of the Lycanroc line. Ash Greninja, a form thats exclusively for Ash and is still known as ASH-GRENINJA in the world of the games.

And, his own Pikachu. And for Pikachu, they even take it as far as to establish it's existence through the existence of PikaAshium Z, a Z crystal for Ash and Pikachu's unique Z-move that exists in the game world as it's found in Pikachu Valley in Sun and Moon. Guess whos the only one in the anime that can perform this Z-move? Pikachu and Ash.

I can name several more cases of cross-canon references that disprove wrong claims like this one too.

1. 1. 
      
      The Kanto Elite Four are ******* evil in the manga. Additionally, Lance can read the minds of Pokemon, Lorelei can throw ice dolls to freeze people and Agatha can mind control people.

Ex's own blog even already cites that using the excuse of E4 being evil isn't a knock against the manga being less valid to be considered part of the same overall world as the other continuties.

The anime already introduces a huge dose of parallel world activity such as the Mirror world from XY.

1. 1. 
      
      Manga Red's Eevee can change between different Eeveelutions at will.

Don't see how this is even a point?

1. 1. 
      
      Type immunities that are literally listed on most pokemon profiles do not exist in the anime, or at least aren't actual immunities.

In what world are you and I watching the same anime? Because they absolutely DO exist, and anyone who consistently watched the anime, and STILL does like yours truly, would know this basic fact.

And before you even try it, no, things like ground types getting electrocuted is a minor inconsistency that has LONG been retconed and properly fixed in the anime for decades now, fixing what the anime early on USED to do for not taking itself seriously. Not that this should be neccessary to post, but any random battle or fight scene between Pokemon in the recent years of the anime will show you that type advantage and disadvanatges are absolutely a thing in the anime and claiming otherwise is just downright lying.

1. 1. 
      
      Several moves work different between the manga, anime and games. For instance, Will-o-Wisp does literally no damage in-game but is treated as a regular attack in the anime. Hypnosis in the games only puts you to sleep (it's stated directly) but in the anime it works like actual hypnosis.

Same with the above for here. It's actually hilarious that you mentioned Will-O-Wisp when the current Pokemon anime, Pokemon Journeys, has Ash's Gengar know the move and it does exactly what the move does in the games. And as for Hypnosis? Diamond and Pearl anime will love to talk to you, cuz hyponsis in the anime absolutely puts you to sleep. Ash faced a gym leader whos literal damn speciality was using moves like hyponsis to put opponents to sleep, so much so that he invented the iconic Counter Shield to fight against the sleep moves.

1. 1. 
      
      Deoxys is a completely different character depending on the medium. In the movies, he displays an impressive combo of cloning, regeneration and telepathy that he has no showings of in-game, and most importantly he can switch between forms at ease at will, which definitely doesn't exist in the games.

Game mechanics. Literally need no other explanation needed than that, pokemon aren't going to display powers like this in literal game mechanic battles....

1. 1. In the manga, the meteor was actually shown to be able to destroy the entire-earth; in-game, it was simply predicted to 'destroy the entire world' by ancient cavefolk. Not exactly enough for a planetary level rating.

What does this literally have to do about continuities being different? Like...what?

1. 1. 
      
      Legendaries as a whole have far more dramatic scaling in the manga than in the games, as the vast majority if not all of them don't have a single hint of the feats they are ascribed in their actual games (or animes, for the most part).

See above. This is nonseniscally irrelevant to the point this is supposed to be for.

1. 1. 
      
      Many Pokemon's pokedex entries are not stated in the manga, which strips them of many key feats and abilities that they could use. Equivocating pokedex entries is also very, very wrong, given that pokedex entries don't even stay consistent between different games and timelines.

Dude. Ever heard of different forms of information? Research? Different regions with different groups of scientists? This is has been brought up for the upteenth time against the pokedex and the same debunk is given every time. Information is not going to be universally the same, even ******* real world animals have several several layers of info to them.

This idea that info on a Pokemon has to be consistently and exactly 1:1 the same is ridiculous.

1. 1. 
      
      The TCG has several different forms and attacks that are not present in any of the canons.

Lovely how you didnt know, or failed to mention, that theres a manga that showcases the abilities of Pokemon TCG's and for each pokemon. More importantly, theres an a creator statement for the TCG that makes it canon.

1. 1. Spoiler: Shortlist of Plot Examples

      The anime, games and manga all adapt the same plot-lines, many of which with the same characters who share appearances. This makes it possible for these stories to coexist just on a basic level, as they could absolutely not be happening at the same time, nor in the same universe.

Spoiler: Shortlist of Plot Examples

You just...restated the obvious. They dont take place in the same universe, but same multiverse. Again, being a paallel world doesn't make it any more real or false than another one. Not that hard to understand.

1. 1. 
      
      The anime, games and manga seemingly have different cosmologies, too. The anime has an Unown Dimension, as well as different dimensions for Arceus, Dialga and Palkia, while the games have the Interdream Zone, a dimension between dreams and reality. Ultra Space is also not described quite as explicitly in the manga as it is in the games, where it's a verifiable universe in it's own right. So they do not even share cosmologies nor universes. We would refuse to scale AUs for less.

Absolutely nothing about this proves different cosmologies, especially on the take for Ultra Space. The manga blatantly shows Ultra Space still leading to different worlds as it does in the games, it even has the Ultra Recon Squad and the Ultra Warp Ride that USUM has.

1. 1. 
      
      Character in the manga die rather frequently, while death is virtually nonexistent in the main Pokemon games. These are main characters too, from champions to major antagonists to the protagonist (kind of).

Dude....Lavender town much? Or you know, every pokemon gravesite in practically every of the mainline games? Even the freaking anime has implied and canonically introduced death for Pokemon and humans before.

Counterarguments (Not comprehensive but what I expect)​

• The different mediums are similar enough to be scaled to each other. Aside from the fact that we don't do this for other verses, they really aren't all that similar. Each universe has different cosmologies, vast deviations in the feats of individual mons, greatly different stories, and vastly different if not unrecognizable characters. You'd be hard-pressed to even consider all the games canon to themselves, much less everything else.

All debunked above, and again, literal whataboutism. Sorry for the bluntness, but I don't give a shit about what other verses do or don't do, they have nothing to do with Pokemon and what's getting discussed here. Not giving another verse the same treatment? How about you actually give an argument for that verse? If not, tough love. Whataboutism is not a counter argument, stop bringing other series up in an attempt to go against this particular one.

And even then, like I said, Digimon would like to talk to you about "no other verse getting the same treatment".

• They all share a canon because...No, they do not. And even if they did, I already addressed that the different multiverses would be far too different to scale off one another, thus this separation would be required anyways.

They do share canons, some canons have already gotten statements of being considered parallel worlds.

• They reference each other a lot. Well, no shit. When you have multiple different mediums all inspired by the same game, they're obviously gonna wink and nod to each other, especially when it's for a franchise that's 25 years old. This doesn't mean they share a canon, though. It's not nearly enough proof.\

But different characters from said different continuities existing in the canons IS however evidence. And for a franchise that already throws a ton of parallel world shenanigans' to Many World Interpretation levels at us, this in fact would mean canons are shared.

• Having some consistency between different mediums is the core of literally every big media franchise; we don't equalize Star Wars movies and Lego Star Wars just for having the exact same plot and trying to be accurate, do we?

Again, more whataboutism. And this is a false equivalence anyway when Star Wars doesn't monitor their different medias, especially to the extent Pokemon does, and things like the manga are literally THE gams in manga form, to showcase things that literally can't be shown in the games for obvious reasons.

• You didn't provide enough evidence. For every character you bring up that's consistent in all 3 mediums, I will bring up 2 more that are not and are more important. There's so much evidence, I just tried to narrow down examples so that this thread doesn't become a tome.

Different portrayl of characters in different alternate worlds. Not evidence against this.

TL;DR

No offense to the OP, but this post is basically just a fancified bunch of nothing but nonsense, misinformation, lack of info on the verse, which is nothing new from these attempts at trying to separate the canons, and arguably lying even. Half of what was written here was just nonsensically wrong info and claims about stuff that supposedly didn't happen, which they indeed did, such as this false narrative of pokemon not having type immunities or relationships in the anime when they've indeed had this for decades, or that death somehows not a thing in pokemon. Some info was discussing things that didn't even have anything to do with the actual points they were supposed to be for. A lot of this just ignores the fact that parallel worlds existing (especially infinite ones) and doing similar but different things is basic Multiverse shenanegans 101, and tries using other series as some kind of excuse to knock Pokemon down when that's textbook whataboutism when they dont have any sort of similar treatment or similar kind of canonicity rules as Pokemon does, and probably worst of all, the OP's arguments ignores the blatant and simple fact that Pokemon takes on the appearance of composite pages (when it's very much not composited) because the vast majority of the pages are covering what each Pokemon species is capable of doing without alterations or variants that are specially and uniquely trained to do specific stuff that sets them apart from their species.

Overall, this attempt at arguing for the seperation of Pokemon canons just doesn't hold, and im completely against any sort of separation under any circumstance, and if anything, an attempt like this makes me more convinced that after this, a discussion rule is needed ASAP for this.

 

[Armorchompy]

Even if it was a multiverse, why the hell would Pokémon scale between parallel universe versions of each other? We don't assume that by default.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Even if it was a multiverse, why the hell would Pokémon scale between parallel universe versions of each other? We don't assume that by default.

Because a pokemon, a WILD Pokemon at that, is literally the same in every universe?

A wild Pikachu in universe A is no different than a wild pikachu in universe B. Same for a wild bellsprout, a wild pidgey, a wild onix, etc etc etc etc.

Info about every pokemon species is exactly the same across parallel universes, why in the world would they not scale? Pokemon aren't treated differently across these parallel worlds.

 

[Armorchompy]

Because a pokemon, a WILD Pokemon at that, is literally the same in every universe?

A wild Pikachu in universe A is no different than a wild pikachu in universe B. Same for a wild bellsprout, a wild pidgey, a wild onix, etc etc etc etc.

Info about every pokemon species is exactly the same across parallel universes, why in the world would they not scale? Pokemon aren't treated differently across these parallel worlds.

Yeah, no, we just don't assume that.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Yeah, no, we just don't assume that.

Wonderful response, but that doesnt answer my question.

Name me a single thing across any of these universes on a pokemon species being treated differently please.

 

[Arceus0x]

I'll respond later when i actually get some sleep. Also screw you mate you said you'd release this abomination in a few days and yet not even 24 hours have passed you lying son of a sudowoodo

 

[Armorchompy]

Wonderful response, but that doesnt answer my question.

Name me a single thing across any of these universes on a pokemon species being treated differently please.

Don't need to, them being comparable in stats/p&a is just not the default assumption. Trust me, I'm a comics supporter, I tangle with that shit once a month.

 

[Arceus0x]

also just so we are on the same page here, in the case that this goes through, you are the one(s) who is(are) going to make the pages, cause the moment this goes through i am effing off to another verse and not coming back.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Don't need to, them being comparable in stats/p&a is just not the default assumption.

Good thing we aren't assuming theyre the same when they're literally shown to be the same across every universe. You want to argue against that, it's your burden of proof to bring something that says theyre different against the former fact.

Trust me, I'm a comics supporter, I tangle with that shit once a month.

Not the same thing when we're talking about a species being the same in every universe, not individual characters.

And I want to know where, in what universe, is Pikachu not known as a mouse pokemon with electrical capabilities, Charizard as a flying fire breathing lizard, or hell, any legendary not doing what they do in-lore in another universe.

 

[Andytrenom]

Question, do we or do we not create scaling chains out of Pokemon fighting others across multiple media? If anything at least that should go since it won't be justified by the excuse of the pages just indexing the species instead of specific characters

As for the blog, it really feels like monitoring is more about maintaining the image of Pokemon for the general fan, after all, that's what a company would more likely care about than capabilities and things that are actually relevant to us. I'm not against some canons being linked (The detective Pikachu movie seems to have evidence of being linked) but in general I think a separation is fine

 

[Sniper670]

Any material that is acknowledged by TPC and is advertised/hosted on the site is canon

There's no need to look into what Is canon and what is not.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Question, do we or do we not create scaling chains out of Pokemon fighting others across multiple media? If anything at least that should go since it won't be justified by the excuse of the pages just indexing the species instead of specific characters

Because it doesn't need to be when its justified by the canons being alternate universes of one another and no anti feats.

Like, all of this is not suddenly some new information.

As for the blog, it really feels like monitoring is more about maintaining the image of Pokemon for the general fan, after all, that's what a company would more likely care about than capabilities and things that are actually relevant to us. I'm not against some canons being linked (The detective Pikachu movie seems to have evidence of being linked) but in general I think a separation is fine

Given the large number of quotations EX gave that specifies the TPC analyzing literally every decision of every media to be acceptable by their terms, im not quite seeing how that would be any less than textbook getting accepted by the creators.

That said, the blog was definitely never meant to make every single media canon, as most of us here don't support that either.

 

[Arceus0x]

I will say at the moment what i already said and that is that i do not want to split games, anime and manga as characters from those mediums appear in the games at times (green from manga and ash's pokemon and alain existing, not to mention the masters game which is an in-multiverse crossover) suggesting that they do very much share a universe.

I don't mind splitting Shadow Mewtwo and Mewtwo and Primal Dialga and Dialga and such as that doesn't worry me. PMD is already its own thing. Otherwise i don't remember even having conquest profiles and such.

 

[Sniper670]

.That said, the blog was definitely never meant to make every single media canon, as most of us here don't support that either.

I don't see why not

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I will say at the moment what i already said and that is that i do not want to split games, anime and manga as characters from those mediums appear in the games at times (green from manga and ash's pokemon and alain existing, not to mention the masters game which is an in-multiverse crossover) suggesting that they do very much share a universe.

I don't mind splitting Shadow Mewtwo and Mewtwo and Primal Dialga and Dialga and such as that doesn't worry me. PMD is already its own thing. Otherwise i don't remember even having conquest profiles and such.

Im not understanding the issue with Shadow Mewtwo, isn't he already his own key? He scales to no one but himself. And I dont even recall Dialga using PMD stuff for him.

That said, Mystery Dungeon should be considered canon when its literally acknowledging the existence of the normal pokemon world (the MC is a trainer turned into a pokemon) and Conquest I have defending arguments for earlier.

 

[Arceus0x]

Im not understanding the issue with Shadow Mewtwo, isn't he already his own key? He scales to no one but himself. And I dont even recall Dialga using PMD stuff for him.

his mega scales above MMY.
Dialga i just want to have a PMD profile cause PD is cool

 

[Arceus0x]

That said, Mystery Dungeon should be considered canon when its literally acknowledging the existence of the normal pokemon world (the MC is a trainer turned into a pokemon) and Conquest I have defending arguments for earlier.

I am not sure about that since there's a load of lore issues there like the tree of life ordeal or dialga's time gears which don't exist in the main games anime and manga

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I am not sure about that since there's a load of lore issues there like the tree of life ordeal or dialga's time gears which don't exist in the main games anime and manga

Well like always, we have the whole multiverse shenanegans, especially since MD is supposed to explicitly be a parallel world without humans, so naturally it wouldnt exist in the mainline game worlds.

That and funnily enough the tree of life is literally just Xerneas.