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Gotta Revise 'Em All, Part 1: Splitting the Pokemon Canons (Massive Pokemon CRT)

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Regardless, I already expressed my opinion here.

Literally only @Agnaa and @ProfessorKukui4Life gave me a decent discussion here until now.

Rest seemed just seething really hard with no real argument. Only way to continue this is to make another CRT, this one is too ******* long.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Rest seemed just seething really hard with no real argument. Only way to continue this is to make another CRT, this one is too ******* long.
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bruh-face-meme-2.jpg
 
Yemma670 said:
I mean, we're assuming staff who checked the thread at page 1 will go through the next 4 pages. That's..... Unlikely
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With my personal experience of mods being busy 99.9% of the time and refusing to read 4 page CRTs half of which are composed of bumps it seems to me that they won't read 4 pages filled with walls of text
 
I said I was busy and would respond to the posts later in the day. Still planning to do that whenever I’m given the chance.
 
I live in America at the moment. It is 5:44 PM.

Also please god stop derailing. Gyronutz and Strym were unable to read through everything because of how big the thread has gotten, and just repeating a lot of the things ad nauseam doesn't further the debate.

StrymULTRA said:
Y'all gonna stop with this "rude" thing. Is a pretty big CRT which is essentially telling to remake the verse from 0 ffs, ofc is gonna be heated.
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Have you been reading through the thread? Nearly everyone has been perfectly cordial but Professor Kukui accused me of lying on his literal second post here before there was any debate. And then after I clarified things he accused me of lying again. And then said I was trying to parade myself as being an 'expert' on Pokemon. Kukui himself admitted he was rude and said "Maybe I wouldn't be so rude if you were so annoying".

A thread being controversial doesn't give people an excuse to be toxic...especially when they're toxic right from the jump. And hey, for what it's worth, I've been perfectly calm so far in spite of non-stop thread derailing, insults and stonewalling, and I'm not a model user.

Edit: The fact that you guys are literally saying that "don't call out people for being rude lol, OP should see it coming" makes it really difficult to continue this thread in good-faith. We do vsdebating for fun; there's never a reason to be intentionally toxic ffs. Executor/Arceus have been perfectly fine, too.
 
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StrymULTRA said:
Y'all gonna stop with this "rude" thing. Is a pretty big CRT which is essentially telling to remake the verse from 0 ffs, ofc is gonna be heated.
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Differing opinions on the stats of cartoon characters actually isn’t an acceptable reason to become confrontational, at least not on this site. Please try to stay civil when participating in the discussion.
 
Maverick_Zero_X said:
A new thread absolutely isn't needed.
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Yeah no. It is.

Several counters were made after the people who agreed with this haven’t come back to take them into account

half the staff who agreed with this aren’t pokemon debaters, and have admitted to this

Some staff have even admitted to not even reading this thread

Counters like Stryms haven’t been read by any staff except for Agnaa

If the people who agree aren’t going to read the pages in this thread, then a new thread that shows all the arguments from both sides at once is 110% needed.
 
Not to mention the people who agree with the “premise” of this thread don’t even fully agree with the OP

Such as people who found it problematic with using side spin offs like MD or Pokken but specifying that canons like the manga, anime and main games should still remain shared

So yeah, the vote count is all over the place and a new thread needs to get done.
 
Yeah. I fully disagree with spin offs being non canon.... Nothing supports this notion and I've made my points clear earlier
 
No, you do not need to reaffirm your stance every single time someone replies
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But you do need to reaffirm your stance when people who counter what your agreeing with bring debunks. Or else your just admitting your willfully ignoring whatever you want

No, you cannot just dismiss votes because they haven't reaffirmed
Click to expand...

Blatant manipulation of the system because you don’t want to have to debunk something. Bad precedent

No, you cannot just be rude because your favorite verse is being changed
Click to expand...

And I’m not being rude. Im calling out a blatant manipulation of the voting system by people who aren’t even knowledgeable users of this verse that are taking place in a massively important revision for it.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Yeah no. It is.

Several counters were made after the people who agreed with this haven’t come back to take them into account

half the staff who agreed with this aren’t pokemon debaters, and have admitted to this

Some staff have even admitted to not even reading this thread

Counters like Stryms haven’t been read by any staff except for Agnaa

If the people who agree aren’t going to read the pages in this thread, then a new thread that shows all the arguments from both sides at once is 110% needed.
Click to expand...
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
And I’m not being rude. Im calling out a blatant manipulation of the voting system by people who aren’t even knowledgeable users of this verse that are taking place in a massively important revision for it.
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Sir, I'm one of if not the most competitive Pokemon player on this entire goddamn site and I've been following this franchise since I was a wee girl. Don't make blanket claims like "some of the staff members don't know a lot about Pokemon", because more than a few of us definitely ******* do.
 
JustSomeWeirdo said:
Huge assumption that every one of these specifically applies to you, rather than everyone, especially when that last one is "Do not do this"
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Because they do. And as a staff member you really aren’t doing a good job at being convincing otherwise. Or should I go back and literally point out to you the people who’ve:

-Haven’t remotely participated in this thread beyond dropping the good ol “I agree with OP” and then running away faster than Gokus instant transmission

-Openly admitted to not being a knowledgeable user of this verse

-Openly admitted to not having even read the thread beyond the original post

And then some? And yet you sit here and wonder with a straight face why the main supporters for this, in a thread that’s aiming to cause a SITE WIDE level revision for this verse, are getting rightfully pissed off and annoyed.

How would you feel if a random schmuck came in agreeing to revise a series you are knowledgeable on, a series that they aren’t so knowledgeable on, and are contributing to the opposition over a verse they are not experienced with? Someone who voiced agreement before taking new information against what they’re agreeing with into account? And never coming back to see such info?

The supporters who have to go through the effort of developing counter arguments against this have a right to be upset over being outvoted by most people that haven’t even looked at their arguments, much less addressed them, over one of the biggest revisions towards the series THEY work on.

So you can kindly drop the “upset that your favorite series getting changed” remark, because that’s not it chief. It’s us being upset, and rightfully so, over having to fight against an echo chamber being extremely dismissive.
 
Moritzva said:
Sir, I'm one of if not the most competitive Pokemon player on this entire goddamn site and I've been following this franchise since I was a wee girl. Don't make blanket claims like "some of the staff members don't know a lot about Pokemon", because more than a few of us definitely ******* do.
Click to expand...
And your assuming I referred to you because…..yeah why?

Cuz I wasn’t. But I was referring to you on the “haven’t read this thread” point since you openly admitted to that.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
And your assuming I referred to you because…..yeah why?

Cuz I wasn’t. But I was referring to you on the “haven’t read this thread” point since you openly admitted to that.
Click to expand...
Let me make this very clear. I've been engaging in decently light-hearted banter so far, but this is all starting to get annoying.

No, you can't just redo threads you are losing.

Yes, I did read the thread, it was a massive load of off-topic hogwash that went on for an egregious, ridiculous amount of time. I said what I said for the sake of comedy and in hopes that people would stop going off-topic with all this.

No, yelling at everyone and saying that they either aren't a dedicated enough fan or haven't paid enough attention (except for the people who agree with you, of course, obviously they are all very well-informed and knowledgeable) isn't a good argument.

No, not everyone has to actively engage with six pages of nonsensical points, and continuing to pad things out with non-arguments and futile requests for a retrial only further bolsters the point that this thread is pointlessly long. People are allowed to say they agree and leave, and requesting that they revisit and restate their point of view after every point you make when you pump out over three pages of non-arguments in a day is completely unreasonable.

No, just because a user isn't already knowledgeable on a verse doesn't mean their input is invalid altogether. The points Mobutt made are very general and would apply to nearly any verse.

I will take this to RVT if you continue this. You've been warned, and warned, and warned.

Edit: Also, arguing that the people who disagree with you 'aren't knowledgeable' falls apart when a lot of the people who disagree with you are knowledgeable. Like me. And Mobutt. And a lot of other people.
 
Moritzva said:
Let me make this very clear. I've been engaging in decently light-hearted banter so far, but this is all starting to get annoying.
Click to expand...
Really don’t care. I’m calling a spade out as a spade.
Moritzva said:
No, you can't just redo threads you are losing.
Click to expand...
I can when the opposition is not going to go through the effort of addressing the side they oppose. Textbook echo chamber.
Moritzva said:
Yes, I did read the thread, it was a massive load of off-topic hogwash that went on for an egregious, ridiculous amount of time. I said what I said for the sake of comedy and in hopes that people would stop going off-topic with all this.
Click to expand...
Then you should know better to cause “comedy” in an obviously controversial thread.
Moritzva said:
No, yelling at everyone and saying that they either aren't a dedicated enough fan or haven't paid enough attention (except for the people who agree with you, of course, obviously they are all very well-informed and knowledgeable) isn't a good argument.
Click to expand...
Because. They. Aren’t.

I’m one of the biggest supporters for this verse and have taken part in nearly every major important revision for this series. So are the people who have sided with my takeaway.

It has nothing to do with me accepting people who’ve agreed with me as knowledgeable users. Its about people who have not participated in such threads and discussions being somehow considered viable enough users to give takeaways on an incredibly big and important revision for a series they do not work on anywhere near as much as the people who do.

And I would be more forgiving of this if they actually bothered to participate. Not drop a vote and disappear.
Moritzva said:
No, not everyone has to actively engage with six pages of nonsensical points, and continuing to pad things out with non-arguments and futile requests for a retrial only further bolsters the point that this thread is pointlessly long. People are allowed to say they agree and leave.
Click to expand...
And guess what? That’s bullshit. But I wouldn’t expect so much from a site that continues giving itself reasons for being universally known as being a pile of crud, even by people who are here.

You don’t get to dictate or gatekeep whats “nonsensical” or a non-argument because you want to, no more than I can. But I absolutely can call out a spade being a spade and people being disingenuous when forming an echo chamber and not bothering to do what they’re actually supposed to do. Counter a debunk.

And I’ll remember the last point the next time your verse is up for revision
Moritzva said:
No, just because a user isn't already knowledgeable on a verse doesn't mean their input is invalid altogether.
Click to expand...
Nice job in putting words in my mouth, because I never said their input was invalid all together.

I said their input is invalid when people actually knowledgeable on the verse they work for go through the effort and trouble of giving counter arguments, and the former essentially does nothing else but hand waive them.

Moritzva said:
The points Mobutt made are very general and would apply to nearly any verse.
Click to expand...
And that doesn’t mean he is correct about said points, especially when misinterpretation and flat out misinformation are given.

And of course people who drop one comment and leave are never going to consider that when they don’t witness said counter arguments.
Moritzva said:
I will take this to RVT if you continue this. You've been warned, and warned, and warned.
Click to expand...
Oh wow, getting warmed over not breaking one single rule. Yeah no. Cuz I will take this to the RvT myself if necessary.

And frankly, my patience with this site is already on thin ice with very few things keeping me here. I wouldn’t lose any sleep over this place, and it will not stop me from calling out bullshit when I see it happen.
 
Your argument against me calling you out for baselessly accusing your opposition of not knowing what they are doing and claiming 'misinformation' with no basis... is to accuse your opposition of not knowing what they are doing and claiming 'misinformation'.

Kukui, that's it. Debate the actual OP and the points provided, nothing else. A single extra word and I will report you for derailing.
 
Moritzva said:
Kukui, that's it. Debate the actual OP and the points provided, nothing else. A single extra word and I will report you for derailing.
Click to expand...
And. I. Have. For. Several. Pages.

Now you need to do your damn job and address the ******* points. Because I have better things to do with my time and effort than to talk to people who aren’t going to ever see or address what I or any one else says.

You can’t debate yourself. I’ve done my part, and now the opposition needs to do there’s.
 
ProfessorKukui4Life said:
Because. They. Aren’t.

I’m one of the biggest supporters for this verse and have taken part in nearly every major important revision for this series. So are the people who have sided with my takeaway.

It has nothing to do with me accepting people who’ve agreed with me as knowledgeable users. Its about people who have not participated in such threads and discussions being somehow considered viable enough users to give takeaways on an incredibly big and important revision for a series they do not work on anywhere near as much as the people who do.
Click to expand...
Uh huh, I see how it is. ovo
 
StrymULTRA said:
Allright, I'm finally home, and this means I can reply to this abomination of a CRT.

I'll tell first my ideas of what the profiles should be, then addess this stuff.

An issue I have with current Pokémon profiles is the following:

All of our Pokémon species profiles assume the Pokémon is wild, Level 100 with perfect IVs, and know every possible move and skill without being trained.

This is straight up bs. The current profiles assume that the average Pokémon has even egg moves, which, whoever knows a bit about competitive, knows that is impossible to get from a wild Pokémon, as those moves can be get only from really specific breeds. Not to mention that:
  • Most of the AP feats are got through feats of trained Pokémon. As an example, all the Stage 1 Pokémon are 7-B from scaling from Dragonair, however, said feat is literally performed from Lance's Dragonair, which is obviously trained and waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond the average Dragonair you find in the wild. This is an issue which you find in almost every single calculation regarding the Pokémon verse, almost all of them are done from trained Pokémon. These feats shouldn't be representaive of the whole species, given that we saw that a Base Pokémon can defeat a fully evolved Pokémon of the same evolution line with the right training, and multiple times, in fact. Another example is basically that all the speed feats calculated (except Golem's given that it can do said feat even right after its capture without any training) were done from trained ones, and not wild ones. So a good idea would to get all the feats/statements regarding just wild Pokémon without taking feats made from Pokémon which are under training (unless is explicit that said Pokémon never got a training since capture, making it equal to a wild version of it), to make the profiles of a Pokémon a true average and not a shitty composite with all the dumb high ends lol.
  • Because of this mentality, trainers scaling from Legendaries is completely discarded as the Pokémon we have in this wiki are all capped with the highest possible end we have got from this fake average. Trainers literally power-up through the plot and are able to compete with Legendaries, but instead of acknowledging this scaling, we instead scream "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO IS OUTLIER/PIS/INCONSISTENCY ONLY THE LEGENDARIES CAN BE THAT STRONG" because the non-legendaries have this arbitrary cap which prevents them from being that powerful. This is a reason why the non-legendary profiles are legit garbage. An idea of mine would simply to get the feats done from just wild Pokémon for the regular mon you find in the wild, and get the high-end feats the trained Pokémon have under the most skilled trainers for the Trainers' profile. So the wiki makes clear the gap between a random wild Pokémon and a Pokémon powered through training.

About the reasons why I agree with the cross-scaling, I'd like to first make YOU ALL READ THE FOLLOWING BLOG. IS NOT FROM EXECUTORN0, but from an off-site source which tells all the possible links between the various medias. Before addressing my points, you all should read this blog, otherwise is literally just ignoring really important points for the sake of your views. If you don't read this, the counter-point is essentially null.

Not to mention that:
About Manga:
  • Pokémon Adventures Manga is a thing in the official website as shown in the blog I've linked, meaning that it has the same relevance as anime and games.
    • Pokémon manga follows 100% the rules of the original world, with Nintendo and Satoshi himself recognizing it as a fundamental aspect of the Pokémon world. This wiki's strict rules are something that prevents almost all the users to see it, but if the authors of the original work recognize the mangas as something which reflects completely their POV, and is supported in their official website, showing it as a material on par with games/anime (this being one of the most important examples we can see there, which is even updated), then it has the same relevance as the Movie Pokémon released in the giveaways. The Pokémon world is not something that can be saw entirely in just one media, but needs multiple ones to be seen in 100%, and the authors know that the manga is the way to see the Pokémon world's lore in a closer way than Games and Anime allow, in the same way the Games allow to see the Pokémon world in a way the other two medias can't and so on.
Given that Games, Anime and Manga are essentially the same crap, we can perfectly assume that all of them can cross-scale about wild non-legends. Wild Legendaries too (and I mean WILD, not the ones owned from trainers), given that in all the medias the capabilities are the same (Kyogre can flood the world, Dialga can manipulate time, Deoxys is an alien which can change forms, etc).

So the things which should cross-scale in short are:
  • Main anime series + related movies + adaptations of it through mangas/novels.
  • Pokémon Origins/Generations/Evolution/whatever series is released on the official YT channel.
  • Main Core Games.
  • Pokémon Adventures Manga.
  • Pokémon Ranger series.
  • TCG.
Crossover Games like Pokémon Conquest shouldn't be allowed obviously, same with obscure-ass mangas like RéBURST or that one with the talking Clefairy which I don't remember how is called. Mystery Dungeon Series shouldn't either, it has its own way to interpret Pokémon which is MUUUUUUUUUCH different from the Adventures Manga, and just doesn't fit unlike the 6 sources I told above.

The 6 sources are only for Wild Pokémon obviously. OP made a pretty good job about telling the differences between the trainers, so each important trainer should get at least 3 profiles for each media they appear in. For example Red has many profiles, and that is good, but Lance's profile is based on just the games, without counting for example that in the manga he's a completely different character both in capabilities and goals.

Not reading all of this of course, I am an human being after all, but I think this wall of text should help about how Pokémon should be handled on this site.
Click to expand...
Next replies must be a direct counter against this. Y'all derailing too much
 
That's pretty digestible. I think I'm fine with the cross-scaling for now and agree that the wild Pokemon pages need some tweaking.
 
StrymULTRA said:
Next replies must be a direct counter against this. Y'all derailing too much
Click to expand...
I've already expressed my disagreement with spin offs being non-canon without any backing whatsoever

I'm fine with not cross scaling them to core series however. But I don't see why the CT and Arceus won't reap all the benefits of their nerfed counterparts in PMD.

Especially so for Arceus because of obvious reasons such as as his plates being the source of the multiverse's powers

Plus Arceus0x debunked your dragonair claims

And also, why does tcg get a pass?

And where is Pokémon Go?
 
Not to mention that spin offs are not canon by default unless explicit evidence lol.

Pokémon shouldn't be an exception.
 
Yemma670 said:
It's on their official website, on their YouTube channel.
Click to expand...
So? This means is official, not canon. Otherwise is fanfiction.
Yemma670 said:
And some of the things are directly from core series
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Every non-canon work does that. That's what links them to the main franchise after all.
Yemma670 said:
It's not
Click to expand...
It actually is from what you tell. Tell me another verse which is like Pokémon about getting whatever spin off as canon here.
 
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