GERs Speed is outdated

[JohnConquest1]

I feel a lot of this threads problems could be solved by using the find tool more on whatever browser you're using.

To throw my own hat into the ring, wouldn't it be possible to consider that the reason why Gold Experience Requiem could work within "erased time" is that its own time was not erased? Because of its ability to "Return to Zero", not even the ability to "erase time" would normally affect it or its awareness of events. As I understand, one of the crucial aspects of King Crimson is that the "erased time" includes a person's awareness of events within the "erased time".

Stupid jokes aside, this is something I feel should have some attention shone on it.

 

[Chariot190]

Stupid jokes aside, this is something I feel should have some attention shone on it.

I think Efi has argued that GER was originally effected by the time erase, but RTZ wasnt.
(Though the second time around GER wasnt effected, so maybe that's something to look into for the ability, though idk if it'd effect the thread much if at all, would probably just be a bit of a hax upgrade if even that, which ******* sucks that it doesnt give insight but eh).

I feel a lot of this threads problems could be solved by using the find tool more on whatever browser you're using.

You ******* know it, Ctrl+F is one of the most used things I use on this wiki.

 

[RoyGundam]

I feel a lot of this threads problems could be solved by using the find tool more on whatever browser you're using.



Stupid jokes aside, this is something I feel should have some attention shone on it.

KC actually does erase time though. Not just the awareness of it. It was even explicitly shown when Aerosmith's bullets bypass Diavolo's body and hit Risotto behind him.

Also for what it's worth, of all the options here, I agree with : "At least Massively FTL, likely higher. Infinite with RTZ" although I think "At least Massively FTL, likely higher. Unquantifiable with RTZ" makes the most sense and is the most direct representation of what we actually know about GER from stand stats and such - and the fact that RtZ is a powerful causality manipulation type ability

 

[Chariot190]

Unquantifiable

If that was an actual rating I wouldn't be opposed to it (there's immeasurable, which is the closest thing, but our standards for that are hyper specific and not actually what the word itself means), but we don't got that, best we got is infinite and there's precedence so I'm inclined to go towards that.
Though it being a causality manip doesnt really effect that it's > Infinite Stands and no stand that we know of could get the drop on it, if MIH at maxed speed decided to rush GER for example, RTZ would still kick in against MIH even though MIH was moving at infinite speeds, if that makes any sense.

 

[RoyGundam]

If that was an actual rating I wouldn't be opposed to it (there's immeasurable, which is the closest thing, but our standards for that are hyper specific and not actually what the word itself means), but we don't got that, best we got is infinite and there's precedence so I'm inclined to go towards that.
Though it being a causality manip doesnt really effect that it's > Infinite Stands and no stand that we know of could get the drop on it, if MIH at maxed speed decided to rush GER for example, RTZ would still kick in against MIH even though MIH was moving at infinite speeds, if that makes any sense.

Oh yeah. Got the terms mixed up, but Immeasurable is the closest and most fitting IMO. We can add an explanation along the lines of "considered to be qualitatively superior in all stats to MiH, which can eventually reach infinite speed and is rated as such on it's speed stat"

 

[Zel97]

Immeasurable doesn't seem correct with the fact that chars with that speed tier can move through time like it's a spatial dimension. But at the same when KC erased time, technically time is undefined when rtz activated?? But rtz being immeasurable feels a bit weird

Unknown feels like we're ignoring the blatant truth that:

GER > BIG & MIH


So i feel like infinite is the most fair choice of the 2. Supported by stand stats,narrative and guidebook. Not to mention GER blitzed KC ( one of the fastest stand in the series) like 2 or 3 times throughout their short fight. Although non canon, the games and jorge joestar kinda supports this as well ( official jojo media).

 

[Chariot190]

I still stand by the mftl likely higher, infinite for RTZ, at the end of the day (even if I'd prefer otherwise, I do understand one such complaint about the vagueness), but even so, something exceeds the infinite stands and if we don't wanna say it's GER physically, it's at least RTZ, which even at worst still makes sense, if MIH or BIG or any stand really tried to get a hit on GER at max speed, RTZ will just go "sike bitch" and outspeed them. So like, worse case scenario RTZ is infinite at least even if the Stand isnt and it's supported by basically everything we know of it on top of actual scaling and statements to demonstrably infinite characters.

 

[RoyGundam]

GER > BIG & MIH

This is true, but the actual wording on that typically implies that GER is qualitatively (as opposed to quantitatively) superior to them. And what is qualitatively superior to infinite speed ?

 

[StrymULTRA]

This is true, but the actual wording on that typically implies that GER is qualitatively (as opposed to quantitatively) superior to them. And what is qualitatively superior to infinite speed ?

Nothing, is just an higher level of infinite speed, like this one, who's still infinite despite being infinitely faster than infinite speed characters

 

[SSJRyu1]

I agree with Elizhaa, I still think possibly infinite works better, or just mftl, and if it needs to be discussed more it should probably be moved to a staff only thread since the admins would be who we need more input from if that isn't agreeable. Alternatively unknown would work since there are aspects about GER RtZ we simply don't know.

 

[Chariot190]

I agree with Elizhaa, I still think possibly infinite works better, and if it needs to be discussed more it should probably be moved to a staff only thread since the admins would be who we need more input from if that isn't agreeable. Alternatively unknown would work since there are aspects about GER RtZ we simply don't know.

Possibly is straight up dishonest. Saying possibly implies there's an actual possibility, there isn't, it's straightforward and something we know to be true. Unless you're about to tell me MIH would blitz RTZ, RTZ's main schtick and something we're told countless times is suddenly false and so on and so forth, among all the other evidence, this isn't even a fraction as complex as you're insinuating it to be, the only things that could have made it vague or not straightforward is corrected and clarified anyway so gonna be real, this entire conversation as been a utter waste of all our time.

Staff thread? Yeah, as I said previously, that boat has long since sailed, it should've have started off as such, but when it's gone on this long and more than just a fair share of people have weighed in, creating a new thread just to continue this when there's absolutely nothing else to say about it is a complete ******* waste of all our time and would literally just be this thread a second time, a complete regurgitation of what's already been said 150 posts ago, hell the last 150 some odd posts already were a waste of time as nothing new was brought up that everybody wasn't already aware of and I'm not about to do this a second time, and that's without getting into the fact like 80% of the knowledgeable members aren't staff, and there's like a grand total of 3 staff that are actually well versed enough to give proper input, one of which is already here and the other doesn't want to deal with this clearly and the 3rd I'm pretty sure is busy with irl stuff last I checked. They can comment here if they want.

Unknown doesn't work either, because we do know, again, that's completely dishonest, we know it's above infinite speed, we know, at least, enough about it to say if the speed is warranted, the only thing we don't know that's even slightly relevant, is if it's entirely automatic or not, which, doesn't actually effect if it's a certain speed or not.

Possibly is dishonest because there's no possibility here, it's straight up wrong to say it's possibly, Unknown is straight up pretending something isn't the way it is and hiding behind irrelevant aspects and information to act like it's something it ain't, we know enough about RTZ to make a call on it's speed, the aspects we don't know on are irrelevant to the speed of it.

Extreme disagreement, best case scenario those are dishonest at best and a lie at worse.

 

[manu_zarri]

I mostly disagree with Staff theards

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

We still need a bunch of staff to weigh in on this thread regardless, so I’m in agreement of remaking this thread as staff only.

Especially since this thread did not exactly run smoothly.

 

[KingTempest]

I've been following this thread, I just haven't spoke on it.

I agree with Chariot's points, and I fail to see a reason why it's "possibly".
Possibles on the wiki doesn't do shit, it's just saying "some people think this, and we don't want them to look stupid, so we'll put possibly".

"MFTL, possibly Infinite" is just saying "he sits here, and some people think he sits here".

Give GER the infinite speed, these possibles are just disrespectful.

 

[Chariot190]

We still need a bunch of staff to weigh in on this thread regardless, so I’m in agreement of remaking this thread as staff only.

Especially since this thread did not exactly run smoothly.

Ah yes, let's make a thread where a bunch of people who aren't actually well versed enough to give proper input can watch us go on for a few hundred posts again while also invalidating every person who isn't staff's input when the vast majority of people who are actually qualified to even debate this topic are now not allowed to post there.
And that's without getting into the fact the relevant staff are already here or have been notified, such as Efi.
The people who are qualified to actually debate this are here and the majority of then have given input. There's nothing to gain by doing this a again regardless of who it's with.

So, do tell, why the **** exactly would we remake this thread when everything's already been said, the relevant people are already here and so on. Did this go smoothly? Not really, but that doesn't change the fact all the relevant info is here and has been stated by both sides enough times.

I outright refuse to do this thread a second time, I didn't waste several days and hundreds of posts just for it to amount to ******* nothing and be forced to do it again.
Consider this for next time, if there's a thread like this to not randomly make it without actually running it by relevant parties and if it should be limited to knowledgeable staff and knowledgeable members only.

 

[Damage3245]

KC actually does erase time though. Not just the awareness of it. It was even explicitly shown when Aerosmith's bullets bypass Diavolo's body and hit Risotto behind him.

Also for what it's worth, of all the options here, I agree with : "At least Massively FTL, likely higher. Infinite with RTZ" although I think "At least Massively FTL, likely higher. Unquantifiable with RTZ" makes the most sense and is the most direct representation of what we actually know about GER from stand stats and such - and the fact that RtZ is a powerful causality manipulation type ability

So, I haven't gone through the entire thread yet - but what is wrong with this option?

 

[Chariot190]

So, I haven't gone through the entire thread yet - but what is wrong with this option?

Unquantifiable isn't a rating we have.
And there's enough info to say it's infinite.

Also time erase is whack.

 

[Damage3245]

Unquantifiable isn't a rating we have.
And there's enough info to say it's infinite.

Also time erase is whack.

Fair, but what about rewording it to:

"At least MFTL, likely higher, Irrelevant with RTZ"

Irrelevant is a speed rating we have, and it seems like it might be applicable here. (True, the Speed page does say this is typically for 1-A characters and above, but I wonder if the feats in erased time might be good enough support for it).

 

[Chariot190]

Hmm, maybe?
As long as we don't act like the thing is below ******* like MIH or BIG and we say as much in the justification, I may be able to agree with that. Though the tier 1 thing does make it convuluted (though at the same time we know RTZ doesn't give a shit about time manipulation of any kind, it's stated to be able to act against every single ability in verse, the spatio-temporal dimensions thing is the issue).

Though in this situation I'll wait for a few others opinion on that one.

 

[Elizhaa]

Irrelevant would be wrong, from the speed page's definition:

• Irrelevant (Characters beyond, and qualitatively superior to, the concepts of dimensions of time and space themselves. Meaning: Tier 1-A and above.)

Unquantifiable is usually treated just as hax with no set speed, in similar contexts.

 

[Chariot190]

Irrelevant would be wrong, from the speed page's definition:

• Irrelevant (Characters beyond, and qualitatively superior to, the concepts of dimensions of time and space themselves. Meaning: Tier 1-A and above.)

Unquantifiable is usually treated just as hax with no set speed, in a similar context.

Unquantifiable

Hence the issue, it does have a speed, at least an activation speed, and we know it's above even the infinite *******, it's even rated as such. If we say RTZ doesn't actually have speed, well, then the speed stat of GER was referring to itself and we loop back to square one. And we then continue this argument for another 200 posts except in that situation absolutely no type of agreement will be reached and not even by my own hand there because that's the controversial part, not this.

 

[Damage3245]

Maybe we just don't give any speed rating to RTZ then. It's just like how some hax is obviously faster than the characters themselves but cannot be measured in terms of speed.

For the Stand itself, I am wary about saying that the Stand can move and attack at infinite speeds. Simply moving in erased time doesn't seem like it would count for that because lots of things "move" in erased time.

I do believe that if Diavolo wasn't under the influence of RTZ then he would follow through with his prediction and be able to punch GER in the chest. GER, just as the Stand itself, should not be infinitely above King Crimson.

 

[Chariot190]

Maybe we just don't give any speed rating to RTZ then. It's just like how some hax is obviously faster than the characters themselves but cannot be measured in terms of speed.

For the Stand itself, I am wary about saying that the Stand can move and attack at infinite speeds. Simply moving in erased time doesn't seem like it would count for that because lots of things "move" in erased time.

I do believe that if Diavolo wasn't under the influence of RTZ then he would follow through with his prediction and be able to punch GER in the chest. GER, just as the Stand itself, should not be infinitely about King Crimson.

Something has to be given infinite speed, and RTZ has enough evidence and backing for it, some part of GER is infinite, if we don't say it's him, then it's his ability, it even has actual scaling going for it, even by the author himself. Tbh I'm actually unsure why this is as controversial as it is.

Yes, that's mostly why this thread is a thing and why we've mostly come to agree to treat GER as an absolute FUCKTON above King Crimson instead based on feats like vanishing or being unperceivable to it.

King Crimson's prediction was punching Giorno, not GER, for what that's worth.

 

[manu_zarri]

We still need a bunch of staff to weigh in on this thread regardless, so I’m in agreement of remaking this thread as staff only.

Especially since this thread did not exactly run smoothly.

I generally always think that classic non-CRT discussions are ""wrong"" or just bad for various reasons, including factors of time, desire, non-interested etc...

those are just my opinions

 

[M3X_2.0]

I generally always think that classic non-CRT discussions are ""wrong"" or just bad for various reasons, including factors of time, desire, non-interested etc...

those are just my opinions

This... has nothing to do with the topic right now.

 

[manu_zarri]

This... has nothing to do with the topic right now.

yes, i just got out of context, welp these are pretty linked to my motivations on my previous opinion

 

[SSJRyu1]

I would also alternatively be fine with simply using mftl for physical speed, and not ranking RtZ with a speed at all, leaving it as a standalone hax like most other hax. That would eliminate the issues people have with trying to fit Infinite speed in, while still letting us objectively state what we know about how it works in it's description.

 

[Zoro21043]

i thought rtz was considered passive

 

[Chariot190]

I would also alternatively be fine with simply using mftl for physical speed, and not ranking RtZ with a speed at all, leaving it as a standalone hax like most other hax. That would eliminate the issues people have with trying to fit Infinite speed in, while still letting us objectively state what we know about how it works in it's description.

No, because that's dishonest. Actually I'd say that's basically lying. Actually yeah, it's lying and pretending something doesn't exist or is a certain way when it's not.

We have more than enough info to give it a speed, a staggering amount of info, **** there's even some extra implicatitory evidence I've found to add onto the pile.

And if we don't rate RTZ as infinite, then GER us infinite, it's one of the two, and acting like one of the two isn't scaled and capable of acting against the infinite ******* isnt ok. Also we rate various moves or techniques with differing speed al the time (hell there's some profiles where there's like five different speeds in one key due to it), RTZ being capable of hax doesn't invalidate giving it a rating if it warrants one.

 

[Chariot190]

i thought rtz was considered passive

Passive, manual, automatic, none change the end result.
Pulling a trigger on the gun whether through your own hand or by a motion detector doesn't change the fact the bullet itself or the time it takes to fire still has a speed even if one is manual and one was done without your say.
But, we honestly don't know if it's passive or not, or any of the other options, we simply do not know and it's not said anywhere, not even guides. And even in noncanon it flip flops so not even that helps.
That one is open to interpretation and nobody's opinion would be wrong (though tbh I'm pretty sure it's both to an extent, but I don't have enough info to say for certain).

 

[SSJRyu1]

Yeah, so we have heard from a few perspectives now, and have several options at this point, what we really need is some more staff members to weigh in and pick one at this point, maybe make a staff only thread where they are willing to comment in a focused environment. Basically the main options put forward are "mftl, infinite with RtZ", "mftl, possibly infinite with RtZ", or "mftl" (RtZ is left as a hax, no specific speed is assigned)

I still feel either using mftl for speed, with RtZ simply being left as a hax and not a specific speed, or mftl, possibly infinite with RtZ are the two that make the most sense so I'm going to leave it at that baring new arguments or points.

 

[Chariot190]

Dude drop the staff only shit, I hope you realize that other then like Efi and Dargoo, the most well versed and most qualified users to give input are normal users.
Add onto that that every staff member that's knowledgeable is already here or busy, making a whole new thread just to say the same shit over again while also making it so numerous users who are more than qualified to take part in this conversation which are already here bar one singular person cant actually partake if it now, all making anew thread, not even staff, simply a new thread at all, is a complete waste of time moreso then what we already wasted. Everyone who should take place in this debate is already here bar two users, maybe three, and one is busy and one is MIA, nothing we can do about that.

Also not how it works, several suggestions were given, not options, why do I say that? Because those suggestions are either wrong, dishonest even if unintentionally, ignores blatant evidence and honestly feels like a compromise to something that doesnt actually warrant said compromisation, listing off possible things to put on the profile is one thing but if those options aren't actually accurate or arent actually warranted then suggested or not, we cant use that.

being left as a hax and not a specific speed

That's wrong and treating and listing it like that is quite literally pretending it's something it isnt (Well it is hax, but what I menant is treating it like it doesnt qualify for a speed and scaling is what I meant, it being hax doesnt invalidate that, Love Train or Cream are hax but both have a speed for various things, especially the latter where everything it does has a speed, even the actual disintegration) for example, and ignoring things that have no reason to be ignored and treated like it doesnt exist.

possibly infinite with RtZ

Assuming your reasons for believing it's a "possibility" are the same as before, then I still vehemently disagree and stand by said points being borderline completely irrelevant and semantics at best.

Base MFTL, likely higher etc is obviously fine, I think most of us agree on that at least. **** it's even written out and has the scans already good to go and linked.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I still agree with Chariot. He already went through all this shit.

 

[Ionliosite]

I agree that we shouldn't give RtZ an individual rating, I feel it would just be dishonest to do so when there's nothing indicating it is so far faster than GER itself. If anything, GER being Infinite would make far more sense than RtZ being ridiculously faster than it, and it would actually adhere to the statements in question.

 

[Chariot190]

I agree that we shouldn't give RtZ an individual rating, I feel it would just be dishonest to do so when there's nothing indicating it is so far faster than GER itself. If anything, GER being Infinite would make far more sense than RtZ being ridiculously faster than it, and it would actually adhere to the statements in question.

Wot.
That's one of the biggest hot takes ive seen this entire thread. We outright SEE RTZ activate faster than GER, so I don't even know what you're on about.
And I hope you realize you're actively arguing that we go back to arguing for GER itself to have infinite speed because everything I said in the last several hundred posts still apply.

You're arguing that RTZ isn't faster than GER, if RTZ isn't faster then GER, that means GER is infinite because at the very least one of them is infinite, and if you're arguing that they're the same speed, then that just means they're both infinite, which obviously isn't going to fly.
And in regards to RTZ not being faster and nothing indicates that, well that's straight up false, we know RTZ can exceed the likes of MIH, hell, any character in the verse for that matter, and RTZ has taken effect in a situation GER has seemingly can't (given I guess that's how we're treating that now), meaning, there's absolutely nothing that says GER and RTZ have to be the same speed, we know that RTZ can kick in even when GER can't (I guess), we know something scales above MIH, BIG and all the like and if we dont wanna say GER itself does, then RTZ does. There's really no middle ground here unfortunately.

We have to give RTZ a rating, because if GER isn't Infinite, then RTZ is and it should be listed as such and not listing it as it is is wrong, and moves/techniques having their own speed is a common thing on the wiki so that's a nonissue. It having hax doesn't change or effect if it has a speed. And your statement about GER being infinite making more sense than RTZ being faster isn't even based on anything, I can say that for certain given how many times I've went through the arc, every iteration of said arc, even the japanese iterations of it and every canonical supplementary material GER is featured in, there's absolutely nothing in ANYTHING (except maybe Jorge Joestar, but clearly) or any canonical guide that suggests they have to be the same, or that they are at all. If RTZ is faster than GER, then it's faster GER, not much we can do about that.

I'm against not giving RTZ a rating, it has enough evidence to warrant it and opting not to give it something that there's absolutely no reason not to is absolutely not ok, i was under the impression the profiles were supposed to be as indepth as possible, foregoing something that important is a huge red flag for any profile, not even this one in particular.

As such, I'm going to have to ask for concrete evidence or at least something that actually says or at least heavily implies they're the same speed or close to it, if no such thing exists, then that's technically not an argument, because the basis of said argument doesn't actually exist, and if it doesn't exist, then the discrepancy between them doesnt matter (hell it isnt even unprecedented), if there's a difference then there's a difference.

 

[Ionliosite]

Sip

I mean, yes, given your answer to my last argument, GER itself should be Infinite via scaling MiH's top speed, there's no reason to give RtZ a different rating when there's nothing showing it so ridiculously faster than GER.

 

[Chariot190]

Oh? Well, I don't disagree with that, but unfortunately, I'm not willing to write out an overly convoluted and complex deconstruction of how King Crimson interacts with real time and what that would entail for GER or his RTZ, because trust me, I tried, shit wasn't pretty. Or even slightly easy to understand. So that point as support is bust.
And people have issue with the future of King Crimson hitting Giorno in his Epitaph, I explained why that doesn't inherently detract from anything or disprove anything but people still have issue with that so idk what else I can do there, kinda just willing to let that argument die due to the next point.
And the last point is if the guide is talking about RTZ's speed and not GER's, it could be either but we don't actually know so I can't say for certain the opposition is incorrect on that front because it's subjective and open to interpretation.
Though I don't think the people against that are outright wrong on that front and their points do indeed have some backing so I'm willing to be reasonable and compromise and reach a reason conclusion on the subject. Which, at the very least, we've gotten that universally agreed upon for his minimum.

But what I do know, even if we go that route, is something scales to Infinite, and it's been made quite evident that nothing in the verse under any circumstances would ever be able to get pass it (meaning, even ignoring actual scaling above them, we practically know that they're slower anyway).

So like, well really I just want to get this over with and I'm trying to be fair to the opposition's issues, at least, the issues that are fair and hold merit, but while also not ignoring the evidence, scaling, statements and so on we have in a way that works and is also consistent and has the best chance of being accurate taking the complaints into account.
tbh, "At least MFTL, likely higher. Infinite with RTZ" plus all the justification and scans and shit linked is probably the best solution we can come down that adheres to the issues that hold merit from others while also taking into account the information we know to be true at the very least.

 

[SagaTheLegend]

Why give RtZ an speed rating when it is pure hax and passive.Just specify the activation works regardless of speed or something.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Problem with that is, some dont accept GER himself physically be infinite, which is why RTZ was suggested by effi instead and others

 

[Chariot190]

Why give RtZ an speed rating when it is pure hax and passive.Just specify the activation works regardless of speed or something.

Why? Because we just went through 150 posts arguing why. (My bad, 200 almost exactly now).
We don't know if it's truly passive and it being passive doesn't effect if it has a speed or not.
It being hax has absolutely zero effect on if it has speed or not, I can name multiple haxes that are demonstrably a certain speed, even in JoJo let alone as a concept as a whole.
Those two points aren't mutually exclusive to speed, it doesn't actually effect the topic at hand.
The activation working regardless of speed isn't something we have info on, but the info we DO have suggests a speed for it.