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General DC Comics Discussion Thread

I like how the Lasso of Truth requires a pure heart to wield it yet Cheetah steals and wields it just fine in every other comic she shows up in
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
Should High 1-B even be on the page, or is it just something the staff neglected to remove? The justifications seem quite suspect:
  1. There are as many realms in Heaven as there are souls in Creation.[108] (This scan is clearly saying that each individual person's heaven is tailored to their belief system, which isn't evidence for some of them transcending the others, only that heaven gives each soul a different realm)
  2. There are different planes of Heaven.[106] (This scan only states that there are different heavens for souls with different learning needs before reincarnation and implies no infinite hierarchy, and the word "beyond" is used too vaguely here to glean any information from it about qualitative superiority)
On top of that, Pralaya and the Divine Presence, which transcend heaven with qualitative superiority, only reach into 1-C and High 1-C, which is nonsensical if heaven is High 1-B.
Click to expand...
Bump.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
Just to be clear, no one here has intentions to upgrade the Sphere right now?
Click to expand...
No. We just downgraded it. It being considered a higher infinity to the Orrery is itself fairly generous. If you're planning to try and apply some weird platonism stuff for a higher tier, please don't, I can almost guarantee it will not be accepted
 
Deagonx said:
No. We just downgraded it. It being considered a higher infinity to the Orrery is itself fairly generous. If you're planning to try and apply some weird platonism stuff for a higher tier, please don't, I can almost guarantee it will not be accepted
Click to expand...
Whatever happened to Hypertime? I thought that was pretty blatant evidence of R>F. Was it rejected? And if so, why?
 
I don't remember Hypertime ever being treated as R>F, but regardless, World Forger created Hypertime and doesn't have an R>F relationship with the Orrery or the Sphere.
 
Deagonx said:
I don't remember Hypertime ever being treated as R>F, but regardless, World Forger created Hypertime and doesn't have an R>F relationship with the Orrery or the Sphere.
Click to expand...
Grant Morrison has used Hypertime numerous times to define the full nature of the Multiverse. Cubetime is described as a geometrically higher perspective that looks down on comic books (other spacetimes) as fictions.

This isnt inconsistent with alot of the stuff in Multiversity too which very clearly followed that exact same context with all worlds being connected to Earth-33 the real world, and bound by a “fictive membrane”.

Pretty sure thats pretty blatant Low 1-C. Has this been debunked somewhere?
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
Has this been debunked somewhere?
Click to expand...
Yes. By the fact that the World Forger created Hypertime and blatantly doesn't have an R>F relationship with the Orrery or the Sphere.

The Sixth Dimension is the highest realm in DC's multiverse, and in the Snyder/Morrison cosmology, there's no way to interpret any layers within the multiverse as R>F given the fact that even Perpetua does not see any of it as fictional.
 
DC has three discussion rules, and they look outdated in light of the new cosmology split. How can we revise them?
  • Do not attempt to upgrade The Presence/Yahweh from DC Comics to tier 0, simply because he is stated to be omnipotent and is the verse's depiction of the monotheistic god. This topic has been discussed extensively in the past, and it has been concluded that the Presence has shown far too many limitations (Such as equals or near equals in power in Elaine Belloc and The Great Darkness, stating that he was created by human imagination, being mere fiction to Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, being severely damaged by Gabriel Hornblower, and being healed by Michael Demiurgos) to be ranked as anything beyond his 1-A rating. Also keep in mind that statements of omnipotence are never accepted as proof.
Click to expand...
Not only is the Presence not even 1-A anymore, but those occurrences occur in different cosmologies, so this rule's existence is suspect now.
  • Please don't attempt to upgrade the Sphere of Gods to tier Low 1-A or 1-A. It has been discussed numerous times and firmly rejected, as it is very inconsistent and contradictory. However, if new information regarding the Sphere of Gods is canonically published by DC Comics, the discussion can be resumed.
Click to expand...
The Sphere of the Gods isn't even qualitatively superior to the Orrery anymore, so this rule should probably be revised to account for that.
  • Please refrain from creating content revisions or assumptions regarding Mandrakk's plot manipulation abilities based on vague references or lack of evidence. There is no indication in the comics that Mandrakk can alter the details of an existing narrative, change the past, or make decisions for characters in the story. All references to the story are metaphorical and made by beings who are trying to destroy the multiverse, and should be considered within their context. The Gentry/Empty Hand do not see the multiverse as fictional or have the ability to edit the story like an author. Therefore, any discussion about Mandrakk's plot manipulation abilities should be based on evidence from the comics and should avoid assumptions or unsupported claims.
Click to expand...
What's the context behind this rule?
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
The Sphere of the Gods isn't even qualitatively superior to the Orrery anymore, so this rule should probably be revised to account for that.
Click to expand...
The Sphere is still being treated as superior to the Orrery.

As for the others, they will be fixed in due time. There are around 60 profiles affected by the Snyder cosmology alone, so it is going to take some time to fully update everything.
 
Deagonx said:
The Sphere is still being treated as superior to the Orrery.
Click to expand...
I said qualitatively superior. The Sphere resides beyond the Orrery but not to the scale of a tier 1 transcendence.
 
IdiosyncraticLawyer said:
I said qualitatively superior. The Sphere resides beyond the Orrery but not to the scale of a tier 1 transcendence.
Click to expand...
If a realm is considered a higher infinity over another verse, it is qualitatively superior. A 5-D multiverse is qualitatively superior to a 4-D multiverse. At this time, the Sphere is considered a higher infinity.
 
Deagonx said:
If a realm is considered a higher infinity over another verse, it is qualitatively superior. A 5-D multiverse is qualitatively superior to a 4-D multiverse. At this time, the Sphere is considered a higher infinity.
Click to expand...
That's not what it says in the cosmology page.
Tiering: As seen above, the Sphere of the Gods and the Collective Unconscious exist on a higher plane of existence than the Orrery of Worlds but are not qualitatively superior for having an infinity higher than the multiverse, which means that both realms are At least 2-C structures. Characters that scale to the Sphere of the Gods and the Collective Unconscious like Darkseid and Hecate are also At least 2-C.
Click to expand...
 
by the way, the abilities are affected by the cosmology split, for example if a mystical being explains that a simple spell (Like Hellfire) is based on affecting the Soul and mind of the target, it could be escalated to others that can use hellfire but within another cosmology?
 
Oliver_de_jesus said:
by the way, the abilities are affected by the cosmology split, for example if a mystical being explains that a simple spell (Like Hellfire) is based on affecting the Soul and mind of the target, it could be escalated to others that can use hellfire but within another cosmology?
Click to expand...
I don't entirely understand the question. Can you be more specific?
 
Deagonx said:
Yes. By the fact that the World Forger created Hypertime and blatantly doesn't have an R>F relationship with the Orrery or the Sphere.
Click to expand...
Well yeah these guys were reborn within the Material worlds when The Presence renewed everything.

Thats not mentioning the fact that upon getting into higher realms in the Multiversity map, people essentially ascend higher and their existence is elevated higher and becomes more complex, which Grant describes as the map getting increasingly more archetypal and fundamental as you reach the Overvoid.

With the Sixth Dimension being incomprehensible to Fifth Dimensional things, who already define and shape the entire Multiverse excluding the Source wall.

Deagonx said:
The Sixth Dimension is the highest realm in DC's multiverse, and in the Snyder/Morrison cosmology, there's no way to interpret any layers within the multiverse as R>F given the fact that even Perpetua does not see any of it as fictional.
Click to expand...
I mean again, Hypertime only affects the Orrery level guys. We already accept qualitative superiority with our Low 1-C structures presumably starting from the Monitor Sphere.

And also, at least in GMs verse, that entire concept 100% exists. Thats what the whole thing regarding The Empty Hand and the Gentry were about. EH was the readers from the real world, Earth-33, and is still applicable and exists as off Absolute Multiversity.

I have no idea how applicable it is with Snyders verse though
 
Deagonx said:
I don't entirely understand the question. Can you be more specific?
Click to expand...
I speak about whether some powers that are based on the system of cosmology such as the way operation of magic or the Physiology of a mystical race

For example, in a story written by DeMatteis it is said that the Demon race are actually products created by the human Collective Unconscious and cannot die until humanity dies according to Etrigan, it could be said that this can be applied to all demons within any cosmology?
 
Im actually very shocked the Hypertime stuff wasn't taken seriously. Its like the most straight forward Low 1-C (6-D) thing in the cosmology
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
I have no idea how applicable it is with Snyders verse though
Click to expand...
They are currently the same cosmology.

NHTkenshin2 said:
I mean again, Hypertime only affects the Orrery level guys. We already accept qualitative superiority with our Low 1-C structures presumably starting from the Monitor Sphere.
Click to expand...
Sure, but not R>F.

NHTkenshin2 said:
Im actually very shocked the Hypertime stuff wasn't taken seriously. Its like the most straight forward Low 1-C (6-D) thing in the cosmology
Click to expand...
Outside of a single comic from Grant which isn't even incorporated in the main cosmology, Hypertime has been historically indistinguishable from a fancy name for normal timelines. We won't wank it three additional layers of infinity just because Grant called it cube time once in the 90s.
 
Deagonx said:
Sure, but not R>F.
Click to expand...
It is still superiority over the Local Multiverse, which makes them disconnected to whatever happens within the Multiverse.

And again, as far as i am concerned, only Earth-33 and the full structure of the Orrery would get affected by this, Hypertime within this context is much more limited to GMs view on it, but Earth-33 most definitely exists across most of its appearances with a very precise location and description.

Deagonx said:
Outside of a single comic from Grant which isn't even incorporated in the main cosmology
Click to expand...
It isnt a single comic, Grant has incorporated this into Final Crisis (2008), Multiversity (2014), Absolute Multiversity (2022). Hell, even Williamson uses Earth-33 and the entire Cubetime/Linetime in his cosmology, which i did hear some plans on combining his verse with the main one.

We definitely should acknowledge the existence of that hierarchy and not ignore it to get lower ratings.

I will make a thread combining all of the evidence because i am wholeheartedly confident this structure still exists, however i am sceptical if Snyder believes in Hypertime the same way Grant Morrsion does, but again, Snyder said this before
 
Gasper said:
Marvel has more than enough evidence to be lol. But you apparently choose to ignore everything in the thread.
Click to expand...
33749739_1910552815642152_5844553318432505856_n-1.png
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
It is still superiority over the Local Multiverse, which makes them disconnected to whatever happens within the Multiverse.
Click to expand...
The practical interactions between them suggest this isn't the case.


NHTkenshin2 said:
It isnt a single comic, Grant has incorporated
Click to expand...
I'm referring to the phrase cube time. Not hypertime.


NHTkenshin2 said:
We definitely should acknowledge the existence of that hierarchy and not ignore it to get lower ratings.
Click to expand...
No one is ignoring it, there just isn't a hierarchy from what we have been shown.
NHTkenshin2 said:
I will make a thread combining all of the evidence because i am wholeheartedly confident this structure still exists, however i am sceptical if Snyder believes in Hypertime the same way Grant Morrsion does, but again, Snyder said this before
Click to expand...
Snyder explicitly uses Hypertime in his stories. But we must go on what's what's the comics.
 
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