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General DC Comics Discussion Thread

Daoist_Pepe said:
I believe we ought to prioritize what's established within the comic rather than giving precedence to tweets. Dematteis answers seem to imply he wants to not be disturbed. Goofy, I consider you to be very knowledgeable on DC but this "The presence = Smile" argument just ain't it.
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The tweet are asking what is being said of the comics. Most of those question were answered in the comics which fans wanted a clearer answer, so they asked him.

If he views God in both comics where he writes his belief and imagination. He told a fan, he has mentioned the Presence in his Spectre story. Which was referring to #10 when Spectre merged with the Oversoul/Divine Presence to whom transcends all things. Which he told the fans to read the story where he has said the Presence is above and beyond everything. The Smile is God, the Presence is God, there’s no difference.

Doctor Fate: God appears as a Smile.
Spectre: God appears as a cosmic emptiness beyond thoughts and form.
Seekers into the Mystery: God appears as an Ocean then a Magician.
The Last One: God appears as a Nameless entity.
Trinity of Sins: God took an aspect, the Voice.

They’re all God. He only mentioned Smile behind the Universe no more than twice. The rest of the time he calls him God. He always mentioned and adhere to the Presence as God in most his conversation.

This is his “view” of the Presence being God. Not Mike Carey or the other writers of their deciption of God as Light, Yahweh, Voice, etc…
 
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VeryGoofyToddler said:
The tweet are asking what is being said of the comics. Most of those question were answered in the comics which fans wanted a clearer answer, so they asked him.

If he views God in both comics where he writes his belief and imagination. He told a fan, he has mentioned the Presence in his Spectre story. Which was referring to #10 when Spectre merged with the Oversoul/Divine Presence to whom transcends all things. Which he told the fans to read the story where he has said the Presence is above and beyond everything. The Smile is God, the Presence is God, there’s no difference.

Doctor Fate: God appears as a Smile.
Spectre: God appears as a cosmic emptiness beyond thoughts and form.
Seekers into the Mystery: God appears as an Ocean then a Magician.
The Last One: God appears as a Nameless entity.
Trinity of Sins: God took an aspect, the Voice.

They’re all God. He only mentioned Smile behind the Universe no more than twice. The rest of the time he calls him God. He always mentioned and adhere to the Presence as God in most his conversation.

This is his “view” of the Presence being God. Not Mike Carey or the other writers of their deciption of God as Light, Yahweh, Voice, etc…
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Correct, which is why I find it strange that people are trying to hand wave his statements on how he intended God to be in his comics. Especially when we're talking about DeMatteis Cosmology, not Morrison, Gaiman, Johns or whoever you want to mention. Their statements do not matter on this site for a Cosmology they're not a part of. That's the point of the split. That's why it's called DeMatteis Cosmology.

Even the statement that people are trying to point to doesn't contradict anything. The Smile being called a "place" doesn't mean it's not God. It quite literally is called God in the very next sentence. Not to mention, the Smile itself was also called the mouth of God in issue 6. You can easily read Issue 20 of Doctor Fate and issue 10 of Spectre and see that he's referring to the same thing. Especially since the Oversoul is first mentioned in Doctor Fate comic and is carried over when Hal connects to it in Spectre Vol 4.

This is also why I don't believe this Spiritual Cosmology will turn out any good. Morrison works were screwed up and can't be combined with his older or newer stuff because they let Snyder and other authors take precedence over his works. With DeMatteis potentially qualifying for Tier 0, according to Ultima, and people trying to force all of these other works into it, it's going to either create inconsistencies or outright prevent the upgrade altogether because some other writer said something different.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
The Multiversity Map highlights that the Source is the Overvoid and whatever “Unknowable” there is out there which most likely is a composite God that contains the Overvoid and Source.
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It has long been known that the Unknowable uses the Overvoid and the Source as material for creation.
 
Antvasima said:
I strongly agree about that we should base DeMatteis' cosmology on DeMatteis' intentions.
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Yes. While there's some stuff from his works that still needs adding, overall staff did a wonderful job constructing his cosmology. It's also why I'm bewildered by Elizio's change of heart at the mention of the Smile being a "place". It's not like the Divine Presence wasn't called a place. In fact, it was called a cosmic emptiness beyond all voids. A place that exists beyond the threshold of our conscious limitations. This is from issue 10 of Spectre and it's already in the Divine Presence/Smile section of the cosmology blog.
 
Asterotheology said:
Yes. While there's some stuff from his works that still needs adding, overall staff did a wonderful job constructing his cosmology. It's also why I'm bewildered by Elizio's change of heart at the mention of the Smile being a "place". It's not like the Divine Presence wasn't called a place. In fact, it was called a cosmic emptiness beyond all voids. A place that exists beyond the threshold of our conscious limitations. This is from issue 10 of Spectre and it's already in the Divine Presence/Smile section of the cosmology blog.
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The “place” is in reference to Meher Baba's statement that God was once everything and alone. Where he wasn't awakened or had a consciousness and was serene in the perfection of power, knowledge, and bliss.

The scan is meant to refer to them all coming back to the Smile. When they do they go to a “place”, a “God” not of duality but beyond all things and is everything. This is why when they travel through all those realms in Doctor Fate, they find the Love Sea of Soul meant to return back to God after multiple lifetimes. Spectre literally also mentions this where the Divine Presence is beyond any and all voids, where no thoughts and form are. Spectre only briefly saw what the Oversoul is because he was erased from the Dream to reach a level of non-existence beyond non-existence ie The Divine Presence/The One True Creator/God. He still had to wait until all masks were unveiled, they all had to find self-discovery for themselves.

I see Lucifer's “Yahweh” true form as being maybe equal but not the same nor equal(Not one and the same ;). That God is how his being depicted in the Sandman Universe while this God specifically for Matteis.
 
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Brahmatman said:
Morrison spoke directly about this in an interview. This was written about in his very first appearance, which does not contradict subsequent comics. Even The Darkness and The Light don't contradict him much
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The “Unknown” is literally unknown unlike the Source and the Overvoid. We can assume it's a composite Godhead but we can't just make it as if it were direct fact.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
The “Unknown” is literally unknown unlike the Source and the Overvoid. We can assume it's a composite Godhead but we can't just make it as if it were direct fact.
Click to expand...
I agree with you. Or the Unknowable mentioned in the map of the multiverse could also be an "open door" for other contributions, as Snyder did with the Graater Omniverse and the Hands, but the Unknowable could also stand for Source and Monitor-Mind.
 
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VeryGoofyToddler said:
The “Unknown” is literally unknown unlike the Source and the Overvoid. We can assume it's a composite Godhead but we can't just make it as if it were direct fact.
Click to expand...
This is the essence of this God, following the Kabala, where Yahweh and Elohim are only its constituent parts, trying to describe its unknowability in words.
 
Brahmatman said:
This is the essence of this God, following the Kabala, where Yahweh and Elohim are only its constituent parts, trying to describe its unknowability in words.
Click to expand...
Yahweh and Elohims’ are known beings. One of the God of Israel and the latter the council of Godhead of false idols.

They don't describe God other than their own belief system. God should be unchangeable and disconnected from any form of religious system. Like what the Presence mentioned in his conversation at the end of Lucifer suggesting he contains the Void and all things derived from him. Morrison attributes the Presence in his canon as more so a Creator entity as seen in JLA.
 
Elizio33 said:
I agree with you. Or the Unknowable mentioned in the map of the multiverse could also be an "open door" for other contributions, as Snyder did with the Grand Omniverse and the Hands, but the Unknowable could also stand for Source and Monitor-Mind like you said.
Click to expand...
This is impossible. Overvoid described that he was the only being before the emergence of the multiverse (Source)
 
Elizio33 said:
I agree with you. Or the Unknowable mentioned in the map of the multiverse could also be an "open door" for other contributions, as Snyder did with the Grand Omniverse and the Hands, but the Unknowable could also stand for Source and Monitor-Mind like you said.
Click to expand...
The Map states things that are outside. It's not saying Source = Overvoid = Unknowable.

It's saying outside the Multiverse are the Source, the Overvoid, and the Unknowable. Yes, I agree with Morrsion's view that Source = Overvoid but the Map is not trying to connect that idea but rather what's out there in the endless Void beyond the Multiverse.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
The Map states things that are outside. It's not saying Source = Overvoid = Unknowable.

It's saying outside the Multiverse are the Source, the Overvoid, and the Unknowable. Yes, I agree with Morrsion's view that Source = Overvoid but the Map is not trying to connect that idea but rather what's out there in the endless Void beyond the Multiverse.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I know that, I was just saying that the Unknowable, what the Unknowable could be.
 
Elizio33 said:
Yeah, I know that, I was just saying that the Unknowable, what the Unknowable could be.
Click to expand...
The name is literally “Unknowable” if we connect it to something then it beats the point of it being called “Unknowable.”

I don't think it's naming something but a title of things that aren't known by anything. So I can probably guess there are multiple beings or perhaps one unified being. However, the mystery lies in its namesake.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
Yahweh and Elohims’ are known beings. One of the God of Israel and the latter the council of Godhead of false idols.

They don't describe God other than their own belief system. God should be unchangeable and disconnected from any form of religious system. Like what the Presence mentioned in his conversation at the end of Lucifer suggesting he contains the Void and all things derived from him. Morrison attributes the Presence in his canon as more so a Creator entity as seen in JLA.
Click to expand...
Gods can be in different belief systems at the same time, it doesn't mean anything.

The Unknowable has never been described as the Presence. And the Unknowable is the God beyond the gods, which characterizes him as a creator who cannot be characterized by divine traits
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
The Map states things that are outside. It's not saying Source = Overvoid = Unknowable.

It's saying outside the Multiverse are the Source, the Overvoid, and the Unknowable. Yes, I agree with Morrsion's view that Source = Overvoid but the Map is not trying to connect that idea but rather what's out there in the endless Void beyond the Multiverse.
Click to expand...
It's not the same thing. They are simply so united that they can be considered one being. It's like organs, heart and brain, they are different, but organs
 
Brahmatman said:
Gods can be in different belief systems at the same time, it doesn't mean anything.
Click to expand...
You know the context in which I refer to “God” as absolute, not a god of a belief system.
Brahmatman said:
The Unknowable has never been described as the Presence. And the Unknowable is the Gods beyond the gods, which characterizes him as a creator who cannot be characterized by divine traits
Click to expand...
1. I never said the Presence was the Unknowable
2. The Unknowable isn’t described in the story itself. “Unknowable” has briefly been mentioned but not with enough sufficient information to make concrete date from. We have to assume it’s just something outside the Multiverse. We don’t even know if it’s God, it’s just a fitting concept that it could be that.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
The name is literally “Unknowable” if we connect it to something then it beats the point of it being called “Unknowable.”

I don't think it's naming something but a title of things that aren't known by anything. So I can probably guess there are multiple beings or perhaps one unified being. However, the mystery lies in its namesake.
Click to expand...
Maybe? Or, as i said, the Unknowable could be an open door for other authors to add their own contributions? Either way, nothing has been confirmed. It's all just a theory at this point.
 
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Brahmatman said:
It's not the same thing. They are simply so united that they can be considered one being. It's like organs, heart and brain, they are different, but organs
Click to expand...
Morrison has explicitly made it clear, at the least, that the Source and Overvoid are the same. The Unknowable status between the two is unknown.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
You know the context in which I refer to “God” as absolute, not a god of a belief system.

1. I never said the Presence was the Unknowable
2. The Unknowable isn’t described in the story itself. “Unknowable” has briefly been mentioned but not with enough sufficient information to make concrete date from. We have to assume it’s just something outside the Multiverse. We don’t even know if it’s God, it’s just a fitting concept that it could be that.
Click to expand...
Morrison directly called him God, separate from Overvoid and Source

Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity. It's funny, the more I talk about it, the more I'm getting into it!

There is a misconception in the community that it is believed that Presence is the absolute of Dc
 
Brahmatman said:
The Unknowable is still the creator who drew the crack on the Overvoid, nothing has changed
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Could be, has not been stated. We don’t know who did it, so it’s unknown to us. May not be a Creator entity at all. I don’t think any being superseded the Overvoid on how Morrison’s described what’s it was suppose to be. It’s just didn’t know who drew a flaw on it.
 
His concept of the creator remains the same

In the case of comic book stories, it's the war between white page and ink. And who's to say that the page might want that particular story drawn on it? [laughs] What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it? So I thought of the page as God. The idea being that the Overvoid – as we called it in Final Crisis - of the white page as a space is sort of God. And it's condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigantic white space, self-absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'. And it starts investigating, and it's just shocked with what it sees, with all the crazy activity and signifying going on in there. It then tries to protect itself from the seething contact with 'story' and imagines a race of beings, 'angels' or 'monitors' (another word for angel, of course) to function as an interface between its own giant eternal magnificence and this tiny, weird crawling anthill of life and significance that is the DC Multiverse.
 
Brahmatman said:
Morrison directly called him God, separate from Overvoid and Source

Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity. It's funny, the more I talk about it, the more I'm getting into it!

There is a misconception in the community that it is believed that Presence is the absolute of Dc
Click to expand...
I’m not trying to sound prude. However, his statement is saying God is also called Source and Overvoid as synonyms to each other. “Or” being the supplement word to describe it.
 
Brahmatman said:
His concept of the creator remains the same

In the case of comic book stories, it's the war between white page and ink. And who's to say that the page might want that particular story drawn on it? [laughs] What happens if the page is a bit pissed off at the story that's drawn on it? So I thought of the page as God. The idea being that the Overvoid – as we called it in Final Crisis - of the white page as a space is sort of God. And it's condensing stories out of itself because it finds inside its own gigantic white space, self-absorbed pristine consciousness, it finds this little stain or mark, this DC Multiverse somebody has 'drawn'. And it starts investigating, and it's just shocked with what it sees, with all the crazy activity and signifying going on in there. It then tries to protect itself from the seething contact with 'story' and imagines a race of beings, 'angels' or 'monitors' (another word for angel, of course) to function as an interface between its own giant eternal magnificence and this tiny, weird crawling anthill of life and significance that is the DC Multiverse.
Click to expand...
He’s literally calling the Page(Overvoid) God in the context of Final Crisis.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
I’m not trying to sound prude. However, his statement is saying God is also called Source and Overvoid as synonyms to each other. “Or” being the supplement word to describe it.
Click to expand...
It is worth remembering that they are one. But in this case he divided them by name
 
Brahmatman said:
The Unknowable is obviously stronger and out of reach of the Overvoid and the Source. It's not even on the map
Click to expand...
“Obviously?” That’s just assumption.

It’s also on the Map. Outside the Multiverse is those three. The Map is not drawn to scale. The Overvoid is not the size of a comic book paper and the Unknowable outside there in the white infinite page like Overvoid and Source. It’s probably because it’s called Unknowable that we don’t know where it is specifically or what it is.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
“Obviously?” That’s just assumption.

It’s also on the Map. Outside the Multiverse is those three. The Map is not drawn to scale. The Overvoid is not the size of a comic book paper and the Unknowable outside there in the white infinite page like Overvoid and Source. It’s probably because it’s called Unknowable that we don’t know where it is specifically or what it is.
Click to expand...
The Overvoid cannot recognize him, and for God he is only paper, and the Source is only ink. I mean, even Source and Overvoid are written on the map
 
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