General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[Elizio33]

Interrupting the daily cosmology debate to plug this thread:

DCU General Discussion Thread

The DCEU is dead, long live the DCU! This is a thread to discuss anything related to the new DC Universe (DCU) helmed by James Gunn and Peter Safran, which plans to feature a unified continuity across movies, TV shows, video games and animation. If you’re looking for the discussion thread for...

vsbattles.com

In case anyone’s interested in discussing the new James Gunn DC universe.

Thank God! This whole debate about whether we should combine the entire DC cosmology into one has become very boring and tedious.

This is interesting.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I didn’t even write that he died in the usual sense of the word. Even the New Gods cannot die in the usual sense of understanding, collecting themselves from fragments, or trying to escape from the Source.

They have died? The whole story of “Death” of the New Gods proves that notion. We've also seen that they died in a conventional sense on their level. Death is death.

The new gods surpassed him because of their possession of Anti-Life and faith in them, I did not write that in their basic states they are stronger than him. On the contrary, I myself know and believe that Yhwach is the strongest in the Sphere of the Gods, with the exception of Anti-Life, or the Black Racer. But this is only a quantitative difference, and this does not mean that it cannot be surpassed, which is what happened in the Final Crisis.

Yahweh transcends the Endless. Death, herself has no claim over her, and at the time of Vertigo, she wasn't an aspect or goddess of death. She is Death itself.

There are no beings of a high order in the Sphere of the Gods; they are all equal on the same plane of existence.

They are not equal. You're telling me the Endless are equal to Greek gods who already claimed that Dream himself already transcends him and the gods.

This is a very strange statement. Terms in comics or other fictional universes do not have to be used correctly, they are not a scientific article, but only the thoughts of the authors, who are not necessarily philosophers, taking only indirect ideas for their works. Thus, it can be stated that in real life there are no creatures capable of destroying the multiverse, which means it is unrealistic for comics.
Yes, and the claim is incomprehensible, Darkseid is larger than the multiverse in size, and older than time, some part, although it is logical that not all, is used from Plato’s descriptions

The wrong usage still is the wrong usage. There not platonic in nature as their force are tied to themselves being more psychopomps for some concept. Like how Evil can still exist outside of Darkseid.

Darkseid is also not larger than the Multiverse. He can cast a shadow of illusions that are conveyed through the Orrery but that's about it.

What difference does it make what happened before? The Source used to not be an absolute, but only showed itself as walls around ordinary universes, but thanks to a change in the hierarchical system and a character census, it became the strongest being in cosmology, along with the Unknowable and the Overvoid. What was previously interpreted as Yahweh being the strongest and going beyond the Dc cosmology is false for what comes next

Except nothing delfects the fact that Yahweh still isn't the strongest being.

He did not protect in the truest sense of the word when he descended into the universe. This was done by angels, who are emanations of his will or man-made creations. But we were talking about a context to which Darkseid is absolutely inappropriate

Darkseid isn't the defender. What's so hard to understand about that same goes for Yahweh?

This is confirmed by Gaiman's comic. The Source is an absolute being, so why not.
Within the framework of Morrison's comics, it was Darkseid who killed the New Gods, since he called Starlin's comic a secondary canon, Apocrypha, only a partial description of huge cosmic events.

Never was confirmed. Starlin didn't write from Gaiman’s logic.

The interview does not contradict the comic, where before Darkseid was defeated, he was captured by Black Racer. Well, the author’s opinion will still be more important than the reader’s opinion. I will never listen to what people write to me on the Internet that go against the opinion of the author, who clearly knows better what he writes

Authors have no actual say in what's being printed. That’s how it works.

NRAMA: Superman and Darkseid - for those of us who didn't attend night classes on New Genesis...despite being shot through the heart, Darkseid is still alive, he's taking aim at Orion to basically start the whole story, and the Flashes lead the Black racer to him...and that kills him? I feel a little slow here, but when did he start falling through the multiverses?

GM: Again, I don’t think you need to know anything about New Genesis or any other information apart from what’s in the story. Darkseid wasn’t shot in the heart. We all know Batman doesn’t kill people, hasn’t killed people for 70 years and isn’t about to start here. It’s a big enough deal for Batman to pick up a gun. He winged Turpin knowing that the Radion in the bullet would be enough to poison Darkseid’s divine essence. Radion only kills gods after all. It slays idea After that shot, Darkseid is dying, just as someone with radiation poisoning might slowly expire, as Superman explains in #7. The Black Racer drags him strugs.gling away into oblivion over the course of that issue until nothing remains but the fading, ghost-echoes of his malice.

Darkseid started falling through the universe after the event we experienced as The Death of The New Gods. He fell backwards through time and wound up in a human body, on Earth, in the Mister Miracle series back in 2005.

At the end? We're talking about prior when he was dying. His being dragged by the Black Racer wasn't shown. So this doesn't really make a point.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I told you, the concept of divinity only exists in the sphere of the gods. The statement that I am infinite, I am omnipotent only applies in their area/place.
Lower dimensions are limited when compared to higher dimensions and that is normal.

You haven't proven the reason why God/smile or Yahweh is above the sixth dimension

It was shown that the Hands are agents of the Presence and born of it.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

No he’s not. If we only look at that one statement from Death Metal in a vacuum and ignore everything else than sure. However, obviously that wouldn’t be an honest thing to do. Thankfully, It was already clarified before in an interview that the Presence is just an aspect of a grander creator, with the Source being a less manifest creator God than the Presence. And this makes perfect sense when we take a moment to actually recognize the Presence’s consistent depiction as not this ineffable boundless energy outside of the whole cosmology, but simply the boring looking monopoly man that sometimes appears as a dog, lives in the Silver City within the Multiverse, and is not even powerful enough to kill beings from humanities Collective Unconscious.

So actually you’re the one who’s wrong here.

The “Dog” literally was written by Didio and Matteis and is the same God as the Smile.

Whose word can drive Blight and all evil from Creation. He also made the council of eternity pass judgment fairly and literally destroy Blight being one of its members. An aspect of the Voice, the spirit of Redemption can drive Blight back to the CU.

Phantom Stranger literally called the Dog, the “Divine Presence.” Recall the Spectre story of a being that encompasses the Void beyond all voids, the non-existence threshold before form, thoughts, or anyone. The being that surpasses and contains everyone and everything. Matteis literally uses Presence and God as interchangeable terms. He called God; Smile behind the Universe, Divine Presence, Magician, the Voice, etc….

The Presence is still at the top as seen in Metal. Being the highest force of Unseen Beings beyond the Multiverse.

 

[Xearesay]

The “Dog” literally was written by Didio and Matteis and is the same God as the Smile.

Whose word can drive Blight and all evil from Creation. He also made the council of eternity pass judgment fairly and literally destroy Blight being one of its members. An aspect of the Voice, the spirit of Redemption can drive Blight back to the CU.

Phantom Stranger literally called the Dog, the “Divine Presence.” Recall the Spectre story of a being that encompasses the Void beyond all voids, the non-existence threshold before form, thoughts, or anyone. The being that surpasses and contains everyone and everything. Matteis literally uses Presence and God as interchangeable terms. He called God; Smile behind the Universe, Divine Presence, Magician, the Voice, etc….

The Presence is still at the top as seen in Metal. Being the highest force of Unseen Beings beyond the Multiverse.

This is very wrong. Not only is this dog confirmed to be just a part of a godhead(meaning it already can’t be the Smile) but the Smile is also said to be beyond the Presence. We see this here in Dr. Fate, that it’s “a God not like God(The Presence) and the devil” but a place beyond these opposites. So saying “Dematteis uses Presence and God interchangeably” wouldn’t support what you’re saying here since the Smile is already clarified to be a type of God beyond God/The Presence.

What you’re saying about Blight is already included in my point. Due to his nature as a being of humanities CU, the Presence cannot kill him and instead only drive him back into the CU. And we see this narrative pushed within a lot Dematteis’s stories involving the CU beings.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

This is very wrong. Not only is this dog confirmed to be just a part of a godhead(meaning it already can’t be the Smile) but the Smile is also said to be beyond the Presence. We see this here in Dr. Fate, that it’s “a God not like God(The Presence) and the devil” but a place beyond these opposites. So saying “Dematteis uses Presence and God interchangeably” wouldn’t support what you’re saying here since the Smile is already clarified to be a type of God beyond God/The Presence.

What you’re saying about Blight is already included in my point. Due to his nature as a being of humanities CU, the Presence cannot kill him and instead only drive him back into the CU. And we see this narrative pushed within a lot Dematteis’s stories involving the CU beings.

Like how the Magician is God in human form but at the same time is God. Infinite taking finite form is still infinite in nature. Also, he uses Presence interchangeably. He refers to it as the Presence almost all the time unless especially calls it another name. It's sort of like how we refer to the Presence as “DC version of God.”

Also, all things derive from God. If he wants to take it back as we've seen in Doctor Fate #6. All things spring from his fiery breath, it can also go back. His not inherently evil because she/he finds all things necessary for the soul to experience growth.

 

[Brahmatman]

They have died? The whole story of “Death” of the New Gods proves that notion. We've also seen that they died in a conventional sense on their level. Death is death.

These were only apocryphal events of cosmic events. It has already been confirmed several times that the Source can resurrect the New Gods if they are destroyed.

Yahweh transcends the Endless. Death, herself has no claim over her, and at the time of Vertigo, she wasn't an aspect or goddess of death. She is Death itself.

Being superior to something does not free you from the concept. Just because you are stronger than death doesn't mean you can't die. Didi has also appeared in DC comics. And stop it already, Vertigo and DC are the same universe

They are not equal. You're telling me the Endless are equal to Greek gods who already claimed that Dream himself already transcends him and the gods.

Quantitative and qualitative difference are two different things. People are all three-dimensional, but not equal to each other

The wrong usage still is the wrong usage. There not platonic in nature as their force are tied to themselves being more psychopomps for some concept. Like how Evil can still exist outside of Darkseid.

These are fictional universes, this is a completely normal thing. What's the problem? There are similar concepts in various pantheons, but Darkseid is the archetype of evil in the world of the gods.

Except nothing delfects the fact that Yahweh still isn't the strongest being.

It is not known exactly, because they cannot create an adequate balance of power

Darkseid isn't the defender. What's so hard to understand about that same goes for Yahweh?

In the context of protecting the universe, we were talking about Yahweh

Never was confirmed. Starlin didn't write from Gaiman’s logic.

His comic is minor and his plot cosmology has been rewritten

Authors have no actual say in what's being printed. That’s how it works.

As long as it is not prohibited, but this was not the case

At the end? We're talking about prior when he was dying. His being dragged by the Black Racer wasn't shown. So this doesn't really make a point.

Racer was shown capturing Darkseid's true essence from Turpin

 

[Xearesay]

Like how the Magician is God in human form but at the same time is God. Infinite taking finite form is still infinite in nature. Also, he uses Presence interchangeably. He refers to it as the Presence almost all the time unless especially calls it another name. It's sort of like how we refer to the Presence as “DC version of God.”

Also, all things derive from God. If he wants to take it back as we've seen in Doctor Fate #6. All things spring from his fiery breath, it can also go back. His not inherently evil because she/he finds all things necessary for the soul to experience growth.

Cool but that’s not the case for the Presence so who cares. You can repeat that he uses God interchangeably for the Presence but that doesn’t change the point I made in my last comment. The type of God the Presence is supposed to be an aspect of, is beneath the type of God the Smile is. The Smile is a God in the sense of a place beyond opposites, an ineffable, non-dual, ground of being. You trying to equate these two entities when one is explicitly confirmed to be something different and massively beneath the other, is only further contributing to why so many people struggle to understand DC’s cosmology and the cosmic hierarchy.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Cool but that’s not the case for the Presence so who cares. You can repeat that he uses God interchangeably for the Presence but that doesn’t change the point I made in my last comment. The type of God the Presence is supposed to be an aspect of, is beneath the type of God the Smile is. The Smile is a God in the sense of a place beyond opposites, an ineffable, non-dual, ground of being. You trying to equate these two entities when one is explicitly confirmed to be something different and massively beneath the other, is only further contributing to why so many people struggle to understand DC’s cosmology and the cosmic hierarchy.

The Presence in Matteis’ Cosmology is the same God. It has nothing to do with other interpretations. He does very much use them interchangeably.

Case in point Presence = Divine Presence = Smile = God. The only difference is how manifest they are. As such the Voice is an aspect of God and his shape can be that of say a Scottish Terrier. Infinite is still infinite and he is very aware of himself as God. Like how the Magaician or Meher Baba is meant to be a guiding hand, God incarnate. Same logic as how Jesus is God but in flesh but he has all the powers and logic, God the Father has.

Supergirl call God, the Presence. Stranger calls God, Divine Presence, Spectre calls the Oversoul, Divine Presence. A random demon calls the Universe dreamed by the Presence/Creator. Matteis almost always refers to the Presence as God. I would know since I've chatted quite a bit with him.

 

[Xearesay]

The Presence in Matteis’ Cosmology is the same God. It has nothing to do with other interpretations. He does very much use them interchangeably.

Case in point Presence = Divine Presence = Smile = God. The only difference is how manifest they are. As such the Voice is an aspect of God and his shape can be that of say a Scottish Terrier. Infinite is still infinite and he is very aware of himself as God. Like how the Magaician or Meher Baba is meant to be a guiding hand, God incarnate. Same logic as how Jesus is God but in flesh but he has all the powers and logic, God the Father has.

Supergirl call God, the Presence. Stranger calls God, Divine Presence, Spectre calls the Oversoul, Divine Presence. A random demon calls the Universe dreamed by the Presence/Creator. Matteis almost always refers to the Presence as God. I would know since I've chatted quite a bit with him.

None of this is true and the comics disagree with you. The point I made with the evidence I posted addresses the whole narrative you’re currently pushing and refutes it. The Presence can be called God another 50 times and it wouldn’t matter, because he’s not a God like the Smile.

Also it’s funny that you posted that tweet of you nagging Dematteis with questions because Dematteis literally doesn’t even see himself as a sole authoritative on how to interpret what he writes. That’s why he’s just going along with what you’re saying and not actually giving some type of definitive answer.

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1187450959832555581/1192565094106804325/image.png?ex=65a989cb&is=659714cb&hm=b926b1082f8adeb76dd12f4495c5201608cc5803910015683f6d44a86a8f1a63&

And matter of fact, he’s expressed this to you almost every time you bug him and you still haven’t managed to take a hint.

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/837756690190827543/1192571101306437733/IMG_2666.png?ex=65a98f63&is=65971a63&hm=da7d3ab442daf88287d733c84f1a66d4b8731482c034debf7f484658b679a14d&

You honestly need to leave Dematteis alone. The guy is 70 year olds and definitely doesn’t want to be bothered by power scalers trying to trick answers out of him for debate ammo.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

None of this is true and the comics disagree with you. The point I made with the evidence I posted addresses the whole narrative you’re currently pushing and refutes it. The Presence can be called God another 50 times and it wouldn’t matter, because he’s not a God like the Smile.

Except in the stories, he uses God as interchangeable with the Presence.

Just some examples:
1
2
Not to mention how Stranger tells us we are all connected to the Oversoul that lives in them. That the Smile is not only behind and beyond all things but also “within” all things.

Also it’s funny that you posted that tweet of you nagging Dematteis with questions because Dematteis literally doesn’t even see himself as a sole authoritative on how to interpret what he writes. That’s why he’s just going along with what you’re saying and not actually giving some type of definitive answer.

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/1187450959832555581/1192565094106804325/image.png?ex=65a989cb&is=659714cb&hm=b926b1082f8adeb76dd12f4495c5201608cc5803910015683f6d44a86a8f1a63&

And matter of fact, he’s expressed this to you almost every time you bug him and you still haven’t managed to take a hint.

https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/837756690190827543/1192571101306437733/IMG_2666.png?ex=65a98f63&is=65971a63&hm=da7d3ab442daf88287d733c84f1a66d4b8731482c034debf7f484658b679a14d&

You honestly need to leave Dematteis alone. The guy is 70 year olds and definitely doesn’t want to be bothered by power scalers trying to trick answers out of him for debate ammo.

More people have bothered the guy in an attempt to better understand what he meant. I'll admit I was pushing it but Matteis has countless times have done this with others asking questions. He knows we're curious and he loves it when we try to decipher what he says. However, that's pretty irrelevant to what we're discussing. In most of my discussions, I usually apologize if I was taking too long to understand and catch his memo.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

These were only apocryphal events of cosmic events. It has already been confirmed several times that the Source can resurrect the New Gods if they are destroyed.

Being superior to something does not free you from the concept. Just because you are stronger than death doesn't mean you can't die. Didi has also appeared in DC comics. And stop it already, Vertigo and DC are the same universe

Quantitative and qualitative difference are two different things. People are all three-dimensional, but not equal to each other


These are fictional universes, this is a completely normal thing. What's the problem? There are similar concepts in various pantheons, but Darkseid is the archetype of evil in the world of the gods.

It is not known exactly, because they cannot create an adequate balance of power


In the context of protecting the universe, we were talking about Yahweh

His comic is minor and his plot cosmology has been rewritten


As long as it is not prohibited, but this was not the case

Racer was shown capturing Darkseid's true essence from Turpin

I'm tired of the discussion. We’ll just agree to disagree.

 

[Xearesay]

Except in the stories, he uses God as interchangeable with the Presence.

Just some examples:
1
2
Not to mention how Stranger tells us we are all connected to the Oversoul that lives in them. That the Smile is not only behind and beyond all things but also “within” all things.

I don’t know how to get this across to you as clear as possible, but yes the Presence is called God, however that is not the problem. The problem is that in one of the scans I posted, the Smile is directly differentiated from the Presence. I’ll write out the text from the scan and also post the scan myself to make sure you can’t miss it unless you ignore my entire comment.

“The answer doesn’t lie in the opposites… or between the opposites. The Answer lies in something that.. Transcends! Not God and Devil, Mother and Father, Order and Chaos! But a place… a God… beyond opposites! Beyond language!”
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/837756690190827543/1190899670382301264/IMG_1874.jpg?ex=65a37abf&is=659105bf&hm=9ae26b75145da71eb2d5fca4463e207211ebb692db4ea13b23e9cda2f897c78f&

If you’re reading you can see what’s considered the heavenly God/Presence, is not what the Smile is. The Smile is something transcendent to God, it is a place or God that is literally beyond God. This is probably going to be my last comment to you on this so I hope you actually take what I’m saying into consideration and reevaluate your understanding of the verse.

More people have bothered the guy in an attempt to better understand what he meant. I'll admit I was pushing it but Matteis has countless times have done this with others asking questions. He knows we're curious and he loves it when we try to decipher what he says. However, that's pretty irrelevant to what we're discussing. In most of my discussions, I usually apologize if I was taking too long to understand and catch his memo.

So because they’re pestering him that means you should do it too? Also no DeMatteis doesn’t love when you try to decipher what he says because DeMatteis doesn’t even believe there’s anything to “decipher” in the first place. In the clearest words possible he’s told you and all the others that bug him, that everyone’s interpretation is equally valid and that you should go find your own answers. The fact that you think when you’re bothering him about the comic that you’re going to uncover some universal truth means you literally haven’t understood a single thing he’s been telling you. Rather than bugging him to the point where you have to apologize, why not just, leave him alone?

 

[Elizio33]

I agree that the Smile should not be equated with Presence. And just because it was called "Divine Presence" or "Divine Dreamer" (I think it was called that before) doesn't mean the two are the same. I see more the Presence as the Creator mentioned in JLD.

 

[Elizio33]

Just to clarify my point, I believe that the Smile is something (somewhere?) transcending God in the DeMatteis cosmology while the Presence is an aspect of God that is called the Creator that Pralaya would eventually claim.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

P

I don’t know how to get this across to you as clear as possible, but yes the Presence is called God, however that is not the problem. The problem is that in one of the scans I posted, the Smile is directly differentiated from the Presence. I’ll write out the text from the scan and also post the scan myself to make sure you can’t miss it unless you ignore my entire comment.

“The answer doesn’t lie in the opposites… or between the opposites. The Answer lies in something that.. Transcends! Not God and Devil, Mother and Father, Order and Chaos! But a place… a God… beyond opposites! Beyond language!”
https://cdn.**********.com/attachments/837756690190827543/1190899670382301264/IMG_1874.jpg?ex=65a37abf&is=659105bf&hm=9ae26b75145da71eb2d5fca4463e207211ebb692db4ea13b23e9cda2f897c78f&

If you’re reading you can see what’s considered the heavenly God/Presence, is not what the Smile is. The Smile is something transcendent to God, it is a place or God that is literally beyond God. This is probably going to be my last comment to you on this so I hope you actually take what I’m saying into consideration and reevaluate your understanding of the verse.

First off, the Presence isn't simply “heavenly.” He uses it interchangeably with God which is the Presence. The DCU usually has an unspoken rule about God mainly being judeo-christain based hence why Heaven is such an important place. Despite this, we've seen countless versions of Heaven which includes Hinduic views on things.

The context behind the Smile is pretty simple and it has to do with Meher Baba. Doctor Fate is very heavy on Hindu views because of Matteis's journey to India and knowing of the spiritual master. Though Baba didn't speak, he's known for his “smile.” They mention him in the story many times and his the “Avatar” who is God incarnate in the coming of the age. The Smile of God is connected with the Avatar and the whole series revolves around that. This is why you never hear of the Smile ever again other than Matteis calling all his “God” entities the same thing ie The Magician, the Avatar, Divine Presence, The Creator, The Dreamer.

So because they’re pestering him that means you should do it too? Also no DeMatteis doesn’t love when you try to decipher what he says because DeMatteis doesn’t even believe there’s anything to “decipher” in the first place. In the clearest words possible he’s told you and all the others that bug him, that everyone’s interpretation is equally valid and that you should go find your own answers. The fact that you think when you’re bothering him about the comic that you’re going to uncover some universal truth means you literally haven’t understood a single thing he’s been telling you. Rather than bugging him to the point where you have to apologize, why not just, leave him alone?

I guess it's a crime to ask questions.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I agree that the Smile should not be equated with Presence. And just because it was called "Divine Presence" or "Divine Dreamer" (I think it was called that before) doesn't mean the two are the same. I see more the Presence as the Creator mentioned in JLD.

Except Matteis literally describes God as the Presence almost always. Smile has never been mentioned outside of Doctor Fate rather God is used as the term to describe all his “God” characters which includes the Smile.

Scenario 1: Depends on your own view of God, right? Because that's who the Presence is.

Scenario 2: I would say yes. Even the Void is part of the Presence. (Paradoxical but true).

Scenario 3: Last answer: In my view EVERYTHING is an aspect of the Presence. You may have a different answer and that's just as valid.

Scenario 4: I'd say the Void is contained within the Presence. But feel free to come up with your own interpretation. There's no right answer.

So many more examples but he never has once referred to the Smile other than writing it once for Doctor Fate. He only ever says the Presence or God. The only time he mentions a Meher Baba-inspired design is in his series “Seekers in the Mystery after Doctor Fate.

Why is this important? Well connects these dots. There was an issue in Doctor Fate and the slipcover was called the “Avatar” which refers to what Baba said after he took his vow of silence. This is why the design is made exactly like Baba and why the Avatar never speaks and why only through him can you connect God and his last dance. He confirms this question I asked about the Magician and Avatar. They literally show the tomb of Baba as the spiritual connection point for ultimate power to connect with God, who has walked the earth multiple times during the ages such as Rama, Krishna, Mohammad, Jesus, Zoroaster, etc…

He says Pralaya is an aspect of Omnipotence. He also mentions that Divine Presence premeates all levels and that he, as I mentioned earlier, surpasses everyone including Pralaya. This matches the description of the Night of Brahma storyline that the Smile transcends Mahapralaya.

So please enlighten me on how they are different. He never once mentions the Smile because God in his story is all the same: Primal Ocean, The Magician, Smile, Divine Presence, Creator.

Elizio, in case, you're wondering about what Pralaya meant. The Sleep is a process when Brahma takes his sleep, the one for the entire universe opposed to each night. This Sleep is commanded by God and will only come when he commands it. The ultimate power he has always viewed is the Presence who is God, the Smile is God which means they’re all the same.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Just to clarify my point, I believe that the Smile is something (somewhere?) transcending God in the DeMatteis cosmology while the Presence is an aspect of God that is called the Creator that Pralaya would eventually claim.

No? It's talking about God as in duality. You know God/Devil, Man/Woman, Order/Chaos. This is mentioning how this “God” has no contrast and at the same time is both things. Beyond all opposites(duality), behind all things(Smile Behind the Universe), and within all things(Oversoul).

The Presence is God. The Smile is God. There all the same beings. Creator, God, Dreamer, Soul, all of it is the same thing. It's God however you want to see him/her/it. Pralaya will consume an aspect of God, the Dreamer within finite form from the OM Point(Sea of Brahma). God literally made himself in his own dream to wake us up. He became the messenger while dreaming of the dream within the dream.

 

[Antvasima]

There is a question here about the Injustice and Infinite Frontier versions of Superman.

Antvasima

community.fandom.com

 

[Brahmatman]

Except Matteis literally describes God as the Presence almost always. Smile has never been mentioned outside of Doctor Fate rather God is used as the term to describe all his “God” characters which includes the Smile.

Scenario 1: Depends on your own view of God, right? Because that's who the Presence is.

Scenario 2: I would say yes. Even the Void is part of the Presence. (Paradoxical but true).

Scenario 3: Last answer: In my view EVERYTHING is an aspect of the Presence. You may have a different answer and that's just as valid.

Scenario 4: I'd say the Void is contained within the Presence. But feel free to come up with your own interpretation. There's no right answer.

So many more examples but he never has once referred to the Smile other than writing it once for Doctor Fate. He only ever says the Presence or God. The only time he mentions a Meher Baba-inspired design is in his series “Seekers in the Mystery after Doctor Fate.

Why is this important? Well connects these dots. There was an issue in Doctor Fate and the slipcover was called the “Avatar” which refers to what Baba said after he took his vow of silence. This is why the design is made exactly like Baba and why the Avatar never speaks and why only through him can you connect God and his last dance. He confirms this question I asked about the Magician and Avatar. They literally show the tomb of Baba as the spiritual connection point for ultimate power to connect with God, who has walked the earth multiple times during the ages such as Rama, Krishna, Mohammad, Jesus, Zoroaster, etc…

He says Pralaya is an aspect of Omnipotence. He also mentions that Divine Presence premeates all levels and that he, as I mentioned earlier, surpasses everyone including Pralaya. This matches the description of the Night of Brahma storyline that the Smile transcends Mahapralaya.

So please enlighten me on how they are different. He never once mentions the Smile because God in his story is all the same: Primal Ocean, The Magician, Smile, Divine Presence, Creator.

Elizio, in case, you're wondering about what Pralaya meant. The Sleep is a process when Brahma takes his sleep, the one for the entire universe opposed to each night. This Sleep is commanded by God and will only come when he commands it. The ultimate power he has always viewed is the Presence who is God, the Smile is God which means they’re all the same.

Morrison said that any probabilities and possibilities can exist on Overvoid, regardless of their logic and plot inconsistencies in the comics. Why not just accept it?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Morrison said that any probabilities and possibilities can exist on Overvoid, regardless of their logic and plot inconsistencies in the comics. Why not just accept it?

This has nothing to due with the argument.

 

[Elizio33]

Morrison said that any probabilities and possibilities can exist on Overvoid, regardless of their logic and plot inconsistencies in the comics. Why not just accept it?

This is not an argument that can be used to reconcile the cosmologies since the Overvoid has been retconned over the years.

 

[Brahmatman]

This is not an argument that can be used to reconcile the cosmologies since the Overvoid has been retconned over the years.

Overvoid appeared for the first time in 2008. What change are we talking about?

 

[Elizio33]

Overvoid appeared for the first time in 2008. What change are we talking about?

Overvoid was changed to be the light in 2022's Justice League Incarnate by Joshua Williamson.

 

[Brahmatman]

Overvoid was changed to be the light in 2022's Justice League Incarnate by Joshua Williamson.

1. Is this officially confirmed?
2. How does this change his old description?

 

[Jolman1]

This is not an argument that can be used to reconcile the cosmologies since the Overvoid has been retconned over the years.

Overvoid's essence is that he's a living void outside the map, that’s all.

 

[Elizio33]

Overvoid's essence is that he's a living void outside the map, that’s all.

No longer the case

 

[Jolman1]

No longer the case

And why?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

No longer the case

It's actually still the case. The Light is intangible and the scans are talking about Multiversity and the origin of the first Monitor(Monitor-Mind). The Light predates the Multiverse and is in the void of the Darkness. It still is a Void with a description instead of a non-dual omniawraness.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Also, are you now convinced the Presence described by Matteis is the Smile as is any of his God characters?

Remember I don't equate any version of the Presence to Matteis’s. They’re different but specifically how Matteis treats it which is the same as God which appears in different forms with different stories.

 

[Brahmatman]

It's actually still the case. The Light is intangible and the scans are talking about Multiversity and the origin of the first Monitor(Monitor-Mind). The Light predates the Multiverse and is in the void of the Darkness. It still is a Void with a description instead of a non-dual omniawraness.

Why? Before Light and Darkness, there were three absolute beings, and all of them were non-dual, despite the fact that the Overvoid opposed the Source.

 

[Brahmatman]

No longer the case

What has changed? Its functions remain the same, the hierarchical position has simply changed. Although, if you understand at least a little cosmology, then any person will know that the Overvoid was already below the Unknowable in power level. In fact, Williamson did not bring anything new to cosmology, he only slightly changed its description

 

[Elizio33]

It's actually still the case. The Light is intangible and the scans are talking about Multiversity and the origin of the first Monitor(Monitor-Mind). The Light predates the Multiverse and is in the void of the Darkness. It still is a Void with a description instead of a non-dual omniawraness.

Oh! I was more talking about the Overvoid being the living void containing the possibilities and contradictions than anything else. Even then, this description was more of a way of distinguishing the Overvoid from the Flaw which was described as being everything that the Overvoid is not because the Flaw represented existence unfolding stories and dualities.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Oh! I was more talking about the Overvoid being the living void containing the possibilities and contradictions than anything else. Even then, this description was more of a way of distinguishing the Overvoid from the Flaw which was described as being everything that the Overvoid is not because the Flaw represented existence unfolding stories and dualities.

Well, in that case, that is evidently true. All I was notioning is that “Void” does not just mean infinite nothing. It's a lack of something usually with material, matter, or substance with the Overvoid still being. The infinite Void that encompasses all things is, of course, the Great Darkness in this current canon. However, I think the Presence supersedes both and contains both. I believe the Overvoid is an aspect of the Light or is it. While the Light is an aspect of the Presence.

Anyways, do you now agree Matteis deception of the Presence is the Smile as both are God?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Why? Before Light and Darkness, there were three absolute beings, and all of them were non-dual, despite the fact that the Overvoid opposed the Source.

The utmost current canon says only a state of nothingness was at the beginning which became the Darkness as it was contrasted by the Light. Darkness is a state of existence and not a concept that exists eternally. It became sentient or awoken with consciousness after the Light opposed it.

The Multiversity Map highlights that the Source is the Overvoid and whatever “Unknowable” there is out there which most likely is a composite God that contains the Overvoid and Source.

 

[Elizio33]

Well, in that case, that is evidently true. All I was notioning is that “Void” does not just mean infinite nothing. It's a lack of something usually with material, matter, or substance with the Overvoid still being. The infinite Void that encompasses all things is, of course, the Great Darkness in this current canon. However, I think the Presence supersedes both and contains both. I believe the Overvoid is an aspect of the Light or is it. While the Light is an aspect of the Presence.

Anyways, do you now agree Matteis deception of the Presence is the Smile as both are God?

Yes, indeed. Plus, in Snyder's stories, Perpetua said that the Void (Overvoid) as an end, which strongly clarify that the Overvoid is not infinite.

Edit: I still believe that the Smile is something/somewhere beyond God who is the Presence. The Creator and the Presence are the same being and the Creator is preceded by the Sea of Brahma (Mahapralaya/Pralaya).

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Yes, indeed. Plus, in Snyder's stories, Perpetua said that the Void (Overvoid) as an end, which strongly clarify that the Overvoid is not infinite.

I don't think that's intertwined but infinite in levels are different.

Edit: I still believe that the Smile is something/somewhere beyond God who is the Presence. The Creator and the Presence are the same being and the Creator is preceded by the Sea of Brahma (Mahapralaya/Pralaya).

I don't understand why you don't get this when Matteis makes it clear. The Smile is God, not beyond. There’s nothing beyond God, he confirms this:

God is God. Both the Presence and Smile are God.

To me, God is God, whether you call Him(Her/It) the Creator, the Divine, or the One Above All. That's the best answer I can offer.

There's nothing beyond God(Smile/Presence). A Creator and the Creator are not the same. The One True Creator mentioned in Spectre #10 is beyond Brahman(Creator), it is the Parabrahman(One True Creator) when all masks are unveiled even Pralaya is transcendent by the Presence.

Pralaya? Yes, in my view EVERYTHING is an aspect of the Presence. But that's just my view.

He transcends everyone, beyond everyone, and contains everyone. Why? The Presence is God and which excatly describes the Smile.

I always took the Presence to be God.

He says the Presence is God and beyond all. If I did as well then he is. Which I agreed with.

If, you take the Presence to be God, then it both transcends and contains everyone and everything.

He even indirectly confirms the Smile is the Presence. Even suggesting the Smile is an emanation of the Presence because there's nothing beyond him. The Smile was just God within the creation of Oneness and duality. The Divine Presence is the entire conceptual entity. This is why Doctor Fate and Andrew Benett see the Smile as something they know but do not comprehend because God appeared as a Smile behind the Universe. While the Presence's true form is ineffable and cannot be comprehended unless you become him like what the Spectre did. It has no form while the Smile looks like a Smile that mind can at least see how God is when his in the Dream. Yes, a fan asked if they were the same and he said yes, nothing is beyond God/Presence and the Smile is that same entity:

That God(Smile) is….God(Presence)

The fan, so much so,asked if the Presence is beyond the Smile. Indirectly Matteis said, yes. The Smile is form, the Presence is not.

You're asking me to define GOD? Everyone has to do that for themselves.

In Marvel: Into Shamballa. The Presence predates Void, Ego, Form, and Stillness like how the Divine Presence predates form, thoughts, and everyone.

Your Pralaya question is also answered. A Creator mentioned as an aspect of God is not the Creator. God transcends Pralaya who the Smile formed when God went into his dream like the Seekers story. The Presence is the full entity that everyone and everything is an aspect of.

In my view, EVERYTHING is an aspect of God.

Let's say there are aspects of God that return to her, but God, in purest form, is above and beyond, transcending Pralaya and all forms in the Universe. Because, in the end, all that existence(including non-existence) is God! And that's all I have to say on the subject.

Illusion = Pralaya and even she is contained by the Presence/God. Whom transcends Maya/Dream/Creation. He contains and surpasses the Primal Sea which is his state within Creation like the Smile.

And even the illusion is God.

After a certain point, it's up to you to come io with the answer that works for you. For me, in the end, it's ALL God…even illusion.

If the Presence is God Him/Herself, then no. He/She is in all and beyond all.

The Sea of Brahma is the birthplace of Creation, so it transcends Maya. Pralaya was the embodiment of the illusion, so yes, she is part of it. At least that's my point of view.

The Presence(God) - Beyond Beyond-God(State of unconscious even God doesn't know himself and was before form and thoughts including his own): This state existed before God was aware nor awoken or even dreamed. Infinite power, knowledge, and bliss.

• The Smile Behind the Universe/Primal Ocean - Beyond God: God's state of existence within the Dream as Oneness who birth duality.
  • The Magician/Avatar - God: God assuming form but still aware as his existence as God. The Voice is an aspect of God(The Dog).

 

[Averroes1]

Interrupting the daily cosmology debate to plug this thread:

The daily yapping session.

 

[Averroes1]

There is a question here about the Injustice and Infinite Frontier versions of Superman.

Antvasima

community.fandom.com

Are there any anti-feats against that?

 

[Daoist_Pepe]

I believe we ought to prioritize what's established within the comic rather than giving precedence to tweets. Dematteis answers seem to imply he wants to not be disturbed. Goofy, I consider you to be very knowledgeable on DC but this "The presence = Smile" argument just ain't it.