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I was wondering if we should include the information from John Ostrander's Spectre Vol 3 in DeMatteis' cosmology (Spiritual Cosmology)?
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The Void isn't Darkseid. Where was this mentioned?What happened before now does not matter for new comics, where The Void fits into the name of Darkseid.
Garames literally state that the wanted to take into a role older than the gods. Octavius has mentioned they're the highest order beyond the gods. Dream is the reason why the gods even exist and will return to their realms.This has never been stated. Endless same inhabitants of the world of gods
Darkseid and Anti-Life aren't one-for-one.Anti-life has been called the end of all gods and things, and this is still Vertigo cosmology. Cain in the body of Vandal Savage declared that any New God is stronger than Yahweh. Anti-life expelled Yahweh, which has been confirmed several times.
And therefore it have Bleedspace, realm of lords, worlds of gods, heaven, hell, dreamworld and nightmare's realm...DeMatteis' cosmology doesn't even have anything to do with the multiverse map
So even darkseid's manifestation been to strong to lords. Genius!?in Doctor fate Vol 2 #10
It don't cancel that they're all exist on the same plane.Garames literally state that the wanted to take into a role older than the gods.
Yeah, I agree. Although, I think Darkseid should be a special case, as his newly assembled Godhead incorporates all his comic iterations ever.Well, they were said to be platonic/living thoughts despite anti-feats like Darkseid being somewhat matched by Asmodel while his godhead/true form was restored. I think they should be either Unknown or scale to their Pre-Crisis selves. As you just said, they have many anti-feats despite sharing a similar nature to the Sphere of the Gods...
Not very experienced and frankly, haven't read much on it. But it should be okay to apply, if they are compatible enough.I was wondering if we should include the information from John Ostrander's Spectre Vol 3 in DeMatteis' cosmology (Spiritual Cosmology)?
From my point of view, that's not a problem to combine considering that this spiritual cosmology will take material from comics that are strong in matters belief, metaphysics, religion, and also some metafiction things.I was wondering if we should include the information from John Ostrander's Spectre Vol 3 in DeMatteis' cosmology (Spiritual Cosmology)?
You haven't provided proof of the greatness of the smile/god, the concept of divinity in DC Comics is diverse, duality is natural, omnipotent? Normal thing, the end of everything? Normal thingThat's not how continuity or canon works. It's not so much so the infinite Multiverses make it all connected. It just highlights that the Greater Omniverse contains different creators of different creations. These creations are not accredited to be directly mentioned in the other author's stories since all of them focus on the primary Multiverse which was changed throughout different runs.
This shouldn't be a difficult concept to grasp.
Brahma is lower than Pralaya according to Matteis lore.
The sea of nothingness isn't part of the sleep. It is the sleep.
As for your “divinity” point, it doesn't really matter because Naraka is just a realm that's focalized to be nearly equivalent to Hell. It isn't part of Hell, it's a Hell of its own based on the Hindu belief which predates the Judeo-Christain view.
That scan highlights Kabbalah and the Tree of Life. Those pictures are mentions of each sefirot of the Tree, which has nothing to do with Hinduism nor has Matteis ever used Kabbalah. The level is also referencing all of Creation, not just the Sphere.
It never said Yahweh was in the Sphere. When he can make and unmake Creation at will. Not to mention his stated to be one with the Void.
What current story? They don't mention layers of existence well like how Matteis did.
Is this your reason for saying these are better explanations of layers? From what I've seen and read it doesn't really do anything other than show other religions.
I don't agree with anything except Perpetua at full power being above these beings.
Can you stop? I don’t understand what you’re currently discussing and I also don’t really care, but there’s like barely anyone on this site that’s actually knowledgeable on DC. I don’t think there’s any real supporters left either. You’re talking to a brick wall. Whatever composite revision you’re planning to do won’t be effective and I don’t think you’re going to gain anything from debating the people in this thread or those who enforced the nonsensical headcanon that’s currently being used for DC on this site.You haven't provided proof of the greatness of the smile/god, the concept of divinity in DC Comics is diverse, duality is natural, omnipotent? Normal thing, the end of everything? Normal thing
Darkseid:
Become everything
Anti-life duality
Everything is darkseid
I'm the End of Everything
I am the beginning and the end of all things
Darkseid is END
Omnipotent
Btw, I'm going to start a new [DC Cosmology] composite.
then leaveI also don’t really care
Nothen leave
My apologies for interupting, but what do our staff members here think about this?
Antvasima
community.fandom.com
Then leave(2)Can you stop? I don’t understand what you’re currently discussing and I also don’t really care, but there’s like barely anyone on this site that’s actually knowledgeable on DC. I don’t think there’s any real supporters left either. You’re talking to a brick wall. Whatever composite revision you’re planning to do won’t be effective and I don’t think you’re going to gain anything from debating the people in this thread or those who enforced the nonsensical headcanon that’s currently being used for DC on this site.
@Antvasima ?I was wondering if we should include the information from John Ostrander's Spectre Vol 3 in DeMatteis' cosmology (Spiritual Cosmology)?
I'm not very sure. In Joshua Williamson's JL Incarnate series, Darkseid was not shown to be anywhere near to tier Low 1-C. He was matched by the likes of Asmodel and a guy whose armor was forged from the Emotional Rings.Yeah, I agree. Although, I think Darkseid should be a special case, as his newly assembled Godhead incorporates all his comic iterations ever.
The Void on which universes are built fits into his nameThe Void isn't Darkseid. Where was this mentioned?
It doesn't make anyone stronger. Being beyond something is not necessarily formulated as superiority over something, unless there is more precise specificity. The reason you were born does not make you weaker than the one who gave birth to you. Yhwach was stated to be the strongest in the world of gods, but Anti-Life is a god killer, and this is all said in the same comic.Garames literally state that the wanted to take into a role older than the gods. Octavius has mentioned they're the highest order beyond the gods. Dream is the reason why the gods even exist and will return to their realms.
At the time of the Crisis, all New Gods possessed Anti-Life. New gods are stronger than Yahweh. And even in the Crisis it is confirmed that Yahweh is the creator of the multiverse in which the Crisis takes place, which does not contradict VertigoDarkseid and Anti-Life aren't one-for-one.
Yeah, while that's true, Darkseid did easily defeat the Quintessence - the most powerful order of beings in the multiverse, from a higher plane of existence/reality. He also held his own pretty well against Empty Hand who's from a higher order of reality and is beyond our comprehension. Note the emphasis on ORDER. Reality being ordered in metaphysical planes of existence is a common schtick in DC, as one ascends into Unity. Anyway, the wiki treats these stuffs as a single D-jump. Pretty vague, I know.I'm not very sure. In Joshua Williamson's JL Incarnate series, Darkseid was not shown to be anywhere near to tier Low 1-C. He was matched by the likes of Asmodel and a guy whose armor was forged from the Emotional Rings.
I'm pretty sure that's Earth 42 Wonder Wonder there, not Wonder-Mite. Earth 42 is a chibi version for Earth 0 and it's heroes. Hence why Nightwing, as Batman appears as a chibi at the start of the Multiversity Guidebook comic. That's the context of the little people. It has nothing to do with the 5th dimension.Yeah, while that's true, Darkseid did easily defeat the Quintessence - the most powerful order of beings in the multiverse, from a higher plane of existence/reality. He also held his own pretty well against Empty Hand who's from a higher order of reality and is beyond our comprehension, incapacitating Wonder-Mite. Why, it isn't directly stated to be Wonder-Mite, the context "little people" and it's identical nature to Wonder-Mite of the Fifth Dimension does fit. I really don't know how the wiki treats Empty Hand, but I think he's higher dimensional.
Yeah, my bad. I'll edit it outI'm pretty sure that's Earth 42 Wonder Wonder there, not Wonder-Mite. Earth 42 is a chibi version for Earth 0 and it's heroes. Hence why Nightwing, as Batman appears as a chibi at the start of the Multiversity Guidebook comic. That's the context of the little people. It has nothing to do with the 5th dimension.
Maybe, but a full Low 1-C tier would remain bizarre for Darkseid, even for his true form.Yeah, while that's true, Darkseid did easily defeat the Quintessence - the most powerful order of beings in the multiverse, from a higher plane of existence/reality. He also held his own pretty well against Empty Hand who's from a higher order of reality and is beyond our comprehension. Note the emphasis on ORDER. Reality being ordered in metaphysical planes of existence is a common schtick in DC, as one ascends into Unity. Anyway, the wiki treats these stuffs as a single D-jump. Pretty vague, I know.
I personally feel it's okay, though. Anyway, when'd you begin the Forces of Creation thread?Maybe, but a full Low 1-C tier would remain bizarre for Darkseid, even for his true form.
I guess you're right. Currently, I'm starting a draft page for The Forces of CreationI personally feel it's okay, though. Anyway, when'd you begin the Forces of Creation thread?
Okay, great. AnticipatingI guess you're right. Currently, I'm starting a draft page for The Forces of Creation
It is a very consistent layer of existence.Here's how characters scaling to the Crisis Cosmology should be:
Note that I'm not using the feat of the Upside-Down Man infecting the Other Place with "his reality" for the simple reason that Swamp Thing was able to do the same thing with the Other Place. This is more of a battle of belief and magic than an actual battle of raw power, so it does not adhere to Tier 1-C.
- The New Gods would be Low 1-C for sharing a similar nature to the Sphere of the Gods which is qualitatively superior to the material world.
- Empty Hand would be Low 1-C for fighting Darkseid in his true form, with the former considering himself more than his equal.
- Pariah does not have a profile yet but would be Low 1-C, possibly High 1-C via his connection to the power of the Great Darkness for being superior to Darkseid and Empty Hand and affecting the Divine Continuum.
- Hecate and the Upside-Down Man would be Low 1-C for scaling to each other and Hecate is more powerful than all gods. (See the note below...)
- Monitors, Mandrakk, Thought Robot would be 1-C for being qualitatively superior to Comic Book Limbo which is positioned above the Sphere of the Gods on the map of the multiverse without transcending it.
- Mister Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite would be High 1-C for sharing a similar nature as the Fifth Dimension which exists and flows all around and between the realms of the Divine Continuum.
- Monitor, Anti-Monitor, World Forger would be High 1-C in the Sixth Dimension for having a superior stature than all entities inhabiting the multiverse, including those who inhabit the Fifth Dimension.
- Perpetua would be High 1-C for being above the Ultra-Monitor whose power was considered by the Anti-Monitor to be "unlike anything he felt before" and her fight against the Darkest Knight raged across all facets of reality. (See the note below...)
- Darkest Knight would be High 1-C, likely 1-B for defeating and killing Perpetua using fragments of the Source Wall and would have killed the Hands.
- The Hands would be 1-B for transcending everything on the main DC Universe, including the Sixth Dimension.
- The Light of Creation (Source/Overvoid/Presence) would be 1-B for transcending and encompassing absolutely everything and everyone in the Crisis Cosmology.
- The Great Darkness would be 1-B for preceeding and equaling the Light of Creation in power.
Although Perpetua has described her power as only being able to destroy one universe at a time, which has been clearly demonstrated throughout the story, her position and scaling in the cosmology gives her a higher tier, without forgetting that she possesses all the dark forces of creation. She said she regained the power she had before her imprisonment, but Snyder said her stature had diminished since her imprisonment and so she would not adhere to a Tier 1-B like the rest of the Hands, unless a second key is made.
Barbatos was not shown to be exactly above Daniel Hall who should indeed be Low 1-C, he was simply threatening the Dreaming via the side effects of bringing the "horrors" of the Dark Multiverse to the main DC Multiverse.It is a very consistent layer of existence.
Looks very nice, agree
Daniel hall should be l1c, right? and Barbatos is above him because he burned Lucien's library and was also stated to have killed Alpheus.
#Edit
Looks great.Here's how characters scaling to the Crisis Cosmology should be:
Note that I'm not using the feat of the Upside-Down Man infecting the Other Place with "his reality" for the simple reason that Swamp Thing was able to do the same thing with the Other Place. This is more of a battle of belief and magic than an actual battle of raw power, so it does not adhere to Tier 1-C.
- The New Gods would be Low 1-C for sharing a similar nature to the Sphere of the Gods which is qualitatively superior to the material world.
- Empty Hand would be Low 1-C for fighting Darkseid in his true form, with the former considering himself more than his equal.
- Pariah does not have a profile yet but would be Low 1-C, possibly High 1-C via his connection to the power of the Great Darkness for being superior to Darkseid and Empty Hand and affecting the Divine Continuum.
- Hecate and the Upside-Down Man would be Low 1-C for scaling to each other and Hecate is more powerful than all gods. (See the note below...)
- Monitors, Mandrakk, Thought Robot would be 1-C for being qualitatively superior to Comic Book Limbo which is positioned above the Sphere of the Gods on the map of the multiverse without transcending it.
- Mister Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite would be High 1-C for sharing a similar nature as the Fifth Dimension which exists and flows all around and between the realms of the Divine Continuum.
- Monitor, Anti-Monitor, World Forger would be High 1-C in the Sixth Dimension for having a superior stature than all entities inhabiting the multiverse, including those who inhabit the Fifth Dimension.
- Perpetua would be High 1-C for being above the Ultra-Monitor whose power was considered by the Anti-Monitor to be "unlike anything he felt before" and her fight against the Darkest Knight raged across all facets of reality. (See the note below...)
- Darkest Knight would be High 1-C, likely 1-B for defeating and killing Perpetua using fragments of the Source Wall and would have killed the Hands.
- The Hands would be 1-B for transcending everything on the main DC Universe, including the Sixth Dimension.
- The Light of Creation (Source/Overvoid/Presence) would be 1-B for transcending and encompassing absolutely everything and everyone in the Crisis Cosmology.
- The Great Darkness would be 1-B for preceeding and equaling the Light of Creation in power.
Although Perpetua has described her power as only being able to destroy one universe at a time, which has been clearly demonstrated throughout the story, her position and scaling in the cosmology gives her a higher tier, without forgetting that she possesses all the dark forces of creation. She said she regained the power she had before her imprisonment, but Snyder said her stature had diminished since her imprisonment and so she would not adhere to a Tier 1-B like the rest of the Hands, unless a second key is made.
I haven't had much time to work on this but here's a brief start:Okay, great. Anticipating
Preamble looks good. Might be a bit tasking indexing each of the Forces, so just ping if you need help. & Remember SF is the most powerful of them all xDI haven't had much time to work on this but here's a brief start:
Crisis Cosmology - The Forces of Creation
Existence in the DCU is made up of several cosmic forces, all gathered through two poles: Crisis Energy; Anti-Life, Chaos Magic, ect, primarily around greed, predation, and selfishness. Connective Energy; Speed Force, Emotional Spectrum, ect, around the unification of all lives and stories into a single generational history. These forces are said to govern the multiverse and are described as strings stretched across the DC Multiverse.
If you mean Creation as a plane to which Noema of the Basanos has stated then, yes. However, power-wise during Sandman lore they were the highest force even older and more powerful than the gods.It don't cancel that they're all exist on the same plane.
And that makes Darkseid any different?You haven't provided proof of the greatness of the smile/god, the concept of divinity in DC Comics is diverse, duality is natural, omnipotent? Normal thing, the end of everything? Normal thing
They were to become everything. Even then these sentiments hold little precedent with how Darkseid usually gains power to achieve those levels.Darkseid:
Become everything
Relevance? The Source contained both sides of Life and Anti-Life. Darkseid merely shortly won the war within him dying throughout the next following event of Final Crisis.
Darkseid very boastful nature though he has been bested many times before.
Conceptually speaking about himself. Many have claimed this for themselves.
He didn't finish his goal in both occasions.
“Omnipotent” Ha!
The Void in Lucifer was absolute. Darkseid in Infinite Froniter was just being built with the importance of Earth Omega and the bigger threat. If you count the Darkness as a Void then it should be the final Void.
Anti-Life was created by Darkseid. He just used it to formulate something to control all things with despair and take away free will.It doesn't make anyone stronger. Being beyond something is not necessarily formulated as superiority over something, unless there is more precise specificity. The reason you were born does not make you weaker than the one who gave birth to you. Yhwach was stated to be the strongest in the world of gods, but Anti-Life is a god killer, and this is all said in the same comic.
Cain being possessed by the Anti-Life equation and severing the Omega(Darkseid/End) claims that Darkseid is ultimate. Despite his dying and being broken crawling until Rox Omaga would drain him in his domain.At the time of the Crisis, all New Gods possessed Anti-Life. New gods are stronger than Yahweh. And even in the Crisis it is confirmed that Yahweh is the creator of the multiverse in which the Crisis takes place, which does not contradict Vertigo
I personally think that it seems like a bad idea to completely mix Christianity and Hinduism.I was wondering if we should include the information from John Ostrander's Spectre Vol 3 in DeMatteis' cosmology (Spiritual Cosmology)?
That seems fine to me.Here's how characters scaling to the Crisis Cosmology should be:
Note that I'm not using the feat of the Upside-Down Man infecting the Other Place with "his reality" for the simple reason that Swamp Thing was able to do the same thing with the Other Place. This is more of a battle of belief and magic than an actual battle of raw power, so it does not adhere to Tier 1-C.
- The New Gods would be Low 1-C for sharing a similar nature to the Sphere of the Gods which is qualitatively superior to the material world.
- Empty Hand would be Low 1-C for fighting Darkseid in his true form, with the former considering himself more than his equal.
- Pariah does not have a profile yet but would be Low 1-C, possibly High 1-C via his connection to the power of the Great Darkness for being superior to Darkseid and Empty Hand and affecting the Divine Continuum.
- Hecate and the Upside-Down Man would be Low 1-C for scaling to each other and Hecate is more powerful than all gods. (See the note below...)
- Monitors, Mandrakk, Thought Robot would be 1-C for being qualitatively superior to Comic Book Limbo which is positioned above the Sphere of the Gods on the map of the multiverse without transcending it.
- Mister Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite would be High 1-C for sharing a similar nature as the Fifth Dimension which exists and flows all around and between the realms of the Divine Continuum.
- Monitor, Anti-Monitor, World Forger would be High 1-C in the Sixth Dimension for having a superior stature than all entities inhabiting the multiverse, including those who inhabit the Fifth Dimension.
- Perpetua would be High 1-C for being above the Ultra-Monitor whose power was considered by the Anti-Monitor to be "unlike anything he felt before" and her fight against the Darkest Knight raged across all facets of reality. (See the note below...)
- Darkest Knight would be High 1-C, likely 1-B for defeating and killing Perpetua using fragments of the Source Wall and would have killed the Hands.
- The Hands would be 1-B for transcending everything on the main DC Universe, including the Sixth Dimension.
- The Light of Creation (Source/Overvoid/Presence) would be 1-B for transcending and encompassing absolutely everything and everyone in the Crisis Cosmology.
- The Great Darkness would be 1-B for preceeding and equaling the Light of Creation in power.
Although Perpetua has described her power as only being able to destroy one universe at a time, which has been clearly demonstrated throughout the story, her position and scaling in the cosmology gives her a higher tier, without forgetting that she possesses all the dark forces of creation. She said she regained the power she had before her imprisonment, but Snyder said her stature had diminished since her imprisonment and so she would not adhere to a Tier 1-B like the rest of the Hands, unless a second key is made.
Well, it was absolute, then it became not absolute, as the description of cosmology expanded. Darkseid was once a star level and then became a multiversal entityThe Void in Lucifer was absolute. Darkseid in Infinite Froniter was just being built with the importance of Earth Omega and the bigger threat. If you count the Darkness as a Void then it should be the final Void.
Anti-life is a separate entity in the world of the gods, you are confusing something.Anti-Life was created by Darkseid. He just used it to formulate something to control all things with despair and take away free will.
The Endless were written by Neil Gaiman as beyond any and all gods excluding Yahweh.
Cain being possessed by the Anti-Life equation and severing the Omega(Darkseid/End) claims that Darkseid is ultimate. Despite his dying and being broken crawling until Rox Omaga would drain him in his domain.
Not a very reliable source to use. Might as well ask Zauriel whose more powerful: his creator or Darkseid.
We are already separated from DC and Vertigo. That one Void logic was changed to the Greater Omniverse. Which only the Light and Great Darkness scale to. I don't know why you're trying to make a composite view and even then Darkseid is nowhere near close enough to scale to the Hands much less the entire Grsatwr Omniverse which Lucifer “Void” holds akin in logic to.Well, it was absolute, then it became not absolute, as the description of cosmology expanded. Darkseid was once a star level and then became a multiversal entity
I meant to say it wasn't created by Darkseid. I wasn't confusing anything. You're point earlier discussed how the dualistic nature of Anti-Life works in conjunction with the equation and not the entity.Anti-life is a separate entity in the world of the gods, you are confusing something.
Which was to oppose Morpheus's earlier logic of life. I don't think he intended to use any ideas from Kirby with the forces. Anti-All was just synonymous with the end which was made by a Duke of Hell to counter Morpheus’w logic. Even then “hope” beats Anti-Life.So it was Neil Gaiman who wrote in the comic that Anti-Life is the end of all gods and things
Mandrakk wasn't referring to the Presence. The Angel was vengeful in nature to fend off enemies. The whole point of Final Crisis was for Darkseod to become the single Trinity God and drag everything down with him. Batman's quote of Darkseid exactly matches that of Rox. “A dying, broken God.”This was confirmed by the angels themselves, confirmed by the comic itself, and confirmed by Mandrak
In the story, they sort of did. They did say each of them has a facade across religion. Michael was Kali. Spectre was originally going to be an avatar of Shiva but later changed to Kali as well.I personally think that it seems like a bad idea to completely mix Christianity and Hinduism.
That can be discussed and I have also suggested Elizio to add the Sandman reboot material to his thread after the holidays.Could we also add the Sandman reboot lore? Those do give a lot about the Cosmology as well.