General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[Elizio33]

Now, one topic we should address is whether or not the people of the Sphere of Gods scale to their realms, or just a few of them.

From Crisis Cosmology, the New Gods transcend conventional time and their presence deforms time. Darkseid's fall casting a shadow over the multiverse is clearly a metaphor not to be taken literally, but his Godhead is a multiversal singularity with no double from other universes, with all evil consolidated into one point.

 

[Asterotheology]

Now, one topic we should address is whether or not the people of the Sphere of Gods scale to their realms, or just a few of them.

From Crisis Cosmology, the New Gods transcend conventional time and their presence deforms time. Darkseid's fall casting a shadow over the multiverse is clearly a metaphor not to be taken literally, but his Godhead is a multiversal singularity with no double from other universes, with all evil consolidated into one point.

It's been a minute since I last read it, but I believe in Justice League Odyssey Darkseid restored and moved Apokolips back into the Sphere of Gods. Think it was issue 23 or 24 of that comic run.

 

[Elizio33]

It's been a minute since I last read it, but I believe in Justice League Odyssey Darkseid restored and moved Apokolips back into the Sphere of Gods. Think it was issue 23 or 24 of that comic run.

This was not his Godhead though, as his Godhead was only restored after Death Metal when all emanations were absorbed.

 

[Asterotheology]

This was not his Godhead though, as his Godhead was only restored after Death Metal when all emanations were absorbed.

It wasn't so much to say that it was his Godhead. It's more about the fact that he restored the entire thing to its full power and then moved it outside of the multiverse and back into the sphere. Though, there's likely some context I'm forgetting about it all.

 

[Ramasugita11]

You're right about the Anti-Monitor being cursed instead of being created by the Great Darkness. This needs to be changed.

A notable difference between DeMatteis and Crisis Cosmologies, for example, is their view of "God" which seems distinctly different. DeMatteis' vision of God contains and surpasses everything and everyone, including the Primordial Darkness (Pralaya), while in Crisis Cosmology, the Light of Creation (Overvoid/Source/Presence) is preceded by the Great Darkness.

Pralaya? She didn't even cause a crisis in the multiverse. She is even defeated by the green [elemental force] and the green is the collective unconscious.
The collective unconscious is part of creation [Here], so it is impossible for Pralaya to be stronger than Perpetua and equate her with TGD.
Here Here
She is just the embodiment of emptiness, while mother night is emptiness itself

Upside down-man > pralaya.

Upside down-man is just a puppet for the great darkness [Here]
Within his dimension his power is so great that, even when empowered by all of the Parliaments working together, the Swamp Thing can only bind him temporarily:
Here Here Here Here Here
And able to kill swamp thing :
Di Sini
So there are no more difficult problems, just put them at the same level as the sphere of the gods

 

[Elizio33]

Pralaya? She didn't even cause a crisis in the multiverse. She is even defeated by the green [elemental force] and the green is the collective unconscious.
The collective unconscious is part of creation [Here], so it is impossible for Pralaya to be stronger than Perpetua and equate her with TGD.
Here Here
She is just the embodiment of emptiness, while mother night is emptiness itself

Upside down-man > pralaya.

Upside down-man is just a puppet for the great darkness [Here]
Within his dimension his power is so great that, even when empowered by all of the Parliaments working together, the Swamp Thing can only bind him temporarily:
Here Here Here Here Here
And able to kill swamp thing :
Di Sini
So there are no more difficult problems, just put them at the same level as the sphere of the gods

Pralaya extends far above the divine realms. According to DeMatteis' stories, Pralaya is the primordial darkness from which Creation and the Creator himself emerged and to which they would return.

 

[Elizio33]

It wasn't so much to say that it was his Godhead. It's more about the fact that he restored the entire thing to its full power and then moved it outside of the multiverse and back into the sphere. Though, there's likely some context I'm forgetting about it all.

After the Darkseid War events, Darkseid was reduced to a baby and in the Wonder Woman series, her daughter, Grail, had stolen the energies of several gods, including Hercules, using a Mother Box to give Darkseid the stolen energies in order to restore Darkseid again, which she partially succeeded in doing after Darkseid stole the energies of Zeus. I don't remember if I'm missing something, but at the time of JL Odyssey, Darkseid was still seeking to restore his power.

 

[Elizio33]

Regardless we should talk about whether or not the inhabitants of the Sphere of the Gods scale to their realms (Low 1-C).

 

[Antvasima]

My apologies for interupting, but what do our staff members here think about this?

Antvasima

community.fandom.com

 

[NHTkenshin2]

(Moore and DeMatteis have similar cosmologies.)

 

[Williams249]

Regardless we should talk about whether or not the inhabitants of the Sphere of the Gods scale to their realms (Low 1-C).

This is gonna be really tacky as the New Gods have just about too many anti-feats, which heck, disqualifies them from being platonic/living thoughts. Although, if they're indeed platonic and have just about the same nature as the realms they inhabit, I frankly see no reason why they shouldn't scale to it. Also, the obvious problem it's mostly the 'top dogs' in these realms who've shown a level of superiority over the mortal plane and not just any inhabitants, as they do have 'civilians', if you will. So, even if they do, it should be for a named few.

 

[Ramasugita11]

Pralaya extends far above the divine realms. According to DeMatteis' stories, Pralaya is the primordial darkness from which Creation and the Creator himself emerged and to which they would return.

Pralaya is the embodiment of nothingness its true form is the void of Brahma itself.

Smile=brahman
Brahman is the top of the hierarchy in Hinduism, has no form and all creation comes from him.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman
The existence of a smile is beyond mahapralaya [the nothingness] [Here].

Location: Patala/underworld
[The underworld has several nations for each religion].
The sea of brahma is located in the underworld [Here] [Here] [Here] [Here] and naraka is a creation of the sea of brahma.
Pralaya was in the underworld [sphere of the gods].
Brahman/god > brahma > pralaya.

TGD > perpetua > monitor sphere > sphere of the gods[ like underworlds] > [Physical realm]

 

[Ramasugita11]

Regardless we should talk about whether or not the inhabitants of the Sphere of the Gods scale to their realms (Low 1-C).

Just make it "unknown", I don't even remember if they were able to destroy the new genesis/apocalypse

Darkseid's true form [with amp] is placed the same as the overvoid avatar, namely the source. That means he is equal to yahweh if you agree

 

[Jolman1]

Pralaya extends far above the divine realms.

In John's comics nothing about this. Destruction of physical plane is her peak

 

[PrinceStories]

In John's comics nothing about this

In comic Doctor fate Vol 2, through the statement Lord of Chaos, it is very clear that the sea of Brahma will swallow all creation, including order and chaos. That means pralaya is also far superior to the divine realms.

 

[Jolman1]

In comic Doctor fate Vol 2, through the statement Lord of Chaos, it is very clear that the sea of Brahma will swallow all creation, including order and chaos. That means pralaya is also far superior to the divine realms.

That was MahaPralaya, but not Pralaya (she's been in Dark League 1 Vol). Btw, divine realms>lords, but in DF context limited to the realm of lords.

 

[PrinceStories]

Btw, divine realms>lords, but in DF context limited to the realm of lords

There is not a single piece of evidence that shows that the divine realms>order and chaos, in fact they are entities that from their interactions emerged whole worlds and creation including divine realms

 

[Ramasugita11]

In comic Doctor fate Vol 2, through the statement Lord of Chaos, it is very clear that the sea of Brahma will swallow all creation, including order and chaos. That means pralaya is also far superior to the divine realms.

That's right, even the existence of the sea of Brahma is much deeper than the 7 different realms of the underworld. [Seven realms].

For example:
•patala and hell are versions of Hinduism.
•Egyptian god, anubis from underworld [Here] [Here].
•Greek Gods, hades from underworld [Here]
•Vodou mythology, gate of guine the underworld [Here].
•Norse gods, nilfheim [underworld] and others underworlds [Here]

Even so, still. Their existence is only in the sphere of the gods. If you say omnipotent, omniscient, that is a common thing in every belief.
Does not change the fact, their existence is only in the sphere of the gods, but with different layers.

 

[Jolman1]

There is not a single piece of evidence that shows that the divine realms>order and chaos, in fact they are entities that from their interactions emerged whole worlds and creation including divine realms

Are u really?) Again, there're no context about divine realms...

 

[Jolman1]

Does not change the fact, their existence is only in the sphere of the gods, but with different layers.

This sea and that's from John's comics are different things. This comparison is inappropriate.

 

[PrinceStories]

Are u really?)

Ayo what? DeMatteis' cosmology doesn't even have anything to do with the multiverse map and also in Doctor fate Vol 2 #10 when the Lord of Order and Chaos meets Darkseid, it is clearly stated that Darkseid's evil is still part of the Lord of Chaos.

even the existence of chaos and order exists in every plane and every level of being and consciousness including divine realms.

 

[PrinceStories]

Again, there're no context about divine realms...

Yeah, it doesn't directly mean that about it is the divine realms, but if you really pay attention to the context narrative, words like the universe refer to the totality of creation including divine realms.

 

[Ramasugita11]

Ayo what? DeMatteis' cosmology doesn't even have anything to do with the multiverse map and also in Doctor fate Vol 2 #10 when the Lord of Order and Chaos meets Darkseid, it is clearly stated that Darkseid's evil is still part of the Lord of Chaos.

even the existence of chaos and order exists in every plane and every level of being and consciousness including divine realms.

Lucifer > Hunter gods > lord of chaos

 

[Ramasugita11]

This sea and that's from John's comics are different things. This comparison is inappropriate.

What's different?

 

[PrinceStories]

Lucifer > Hunter gods > lord of chaos

Then? I also know that

 

[Ramasugita11]

Then? I also know that

He's not anywhere, he's on his own realm
Only death of the endless is anywhere

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I don't know why we think Pralaya's destruction was only limited to the physical plane. John's statement literally tells us everything but the House was gone.

It was said during the beginning everything came from that Sea and will return. Zatanna literally asked Pralaya to take “everything” back and that “everything” was erased from all corners and only the void of Pralaya remained.

As for the Lucifer story. They’re connected to the Sandman reboot lore. Which has nothing to do with Matteis’ Cosmology. So we can't use that version with the Matteis version because they're not intertwined in canon.

 

[Ramasugita11]

I don't know why we think Pralaya's destruction was only limited to the physical plane. John's statement literally tells us everything but the House was gone.

It was said during the beginning everything came from that Sea and will return. Zatanna literally asked Pralaya to take “everything” back and that “everything” was erased from all corners and only the void of Pralaya remained.

As for the Lucifer story. They’re connected to the Sandman reboot lore. Which has nothing to do with Matteis’ Cosmology. So we can't use that version with the Matteis version because they're not intertwined in canon.

Don't just look at the difference, the difference is not that big, if you say the story is not the same. This Lucifer doesn't even follow the storyline of 2000's Lucifer.
Because there are infinite multiverses located in the greater omniverse. that makes all the storylines canon [another version of multiverse], I think it's okay to use that feats.
The important thing is that the layer of existence does not change, so it doesn't look strange.

smile/brahman > brahma > true form pralaya > Lucifer > odin/achiless > lord of chaos.

the similarities are clear:
•The concept of divinity is also the same, explaining the concept of divinity in Hinduism.
°the sea of nothingness is part of brahma sleep.
°The Ocean void of Brahma created naraka and perhaps the entire realm of the underworld, because it was different from the others [deeper than all the realms of the underworld].
°Even Yahweh's plan did not reach that place.

In the Concept of Hinduism, the story is also like that:
°Pralaya is part of the Brahma Ocean
°there is a cycle, the beginning is the end, the end is the beginning. [a concept like this only existed in the Sphere of the gods].
°Brahman/smile beyond the sea of brahma/pralaya.
°yahweh is one of the most Powerful gods that ever existed [only in the sphere of the gods], even his plans did not reach the sea of brahma.
°brahman/smile > yahweh/lucifer > odin/achiless [gods in the sphere of the gods] who is stronger than lord of order

According to dmatheis comics, smile >> lord of order.
The current story only explains the layers of existence more clearly.

Stories about the creation of everything, Including
naraka [Hell in Hinduism], the creation of concepts etc, Brahman In the story of Lucifer also creates gods who have their own concepts, such as the goddess of misfortune.

Every god is the creator of everything according to his servants and once again, things like this only exist in the sphere of the gods.

so perpetua > monitor sphere > sphere of the gods
Do you agree with my opinion?

 

[PrinceStories]

Don't just look at the difference, the difference is not that big, if you say the story is not the same. This Lucifer doesn't even follow the storyline of 2000's Lucifer.
Because there are infinite multiverses located in the greater omniverse. that makes all the storylines canon [another version of multiverse], I think it's okay to use that feats.
The important thing is that the layer of existence does not change, so it doesn't look strange.

Every writer's has their own ideas and continuity in each comic and you can't equate idea Synder&Tynion's omniverse to the continuity of DeMatteis and Vertigo.

the similarities are clear:
•The concept of divinity is also the same, explaining the concept of divinity in Hinduism.
°the sea of nothingness is part of brahma sleep.
°The Ocean void of Brahma created naraka and perhaps the entire realm of the underworld, because it was different from the others [deeper than all the realms of the underworld].
°Even Yahweh's plan did not reach that place.

That's true but it has a different way working. in DeMatteis continuity the sea of brahma is treated as a place where everything will end and transcend all levels of existence. then in Lucifer vol 3 the sea of brahma is just a sea that's outside Yahweh's plan and has no further explanation for this.

°there is a cycle, the beginning is the end, the end is the beginning. [a concept like this only existed in the Sphere of the gods].

That is an explanation the tree of life kabbalah and all its sefirot, Which has nothing with the concept of Hinduism.

 

[Deleted member 30746]

One plane A may be clearly superior to another plane B, but entities in plane A are not automatically superior to entities in plane B. Sphere of the gods was designed for the gods. Therefore, it is not a correct idea to directly say that the inhabitants of the monitor sphere are stronger.

 

[Ramasugita11]

Every writer's has their own ideas and continuity in each comic and you can't equate idea Synder&Tynion's omniverse to the continuity of DeMatteis and Vertigo.

That's true but it has a different way working. in DeMatteis continuity the sea of brahma is treated as a place where everything will end and transcend all levels of existence. then in Lucifer vol 3 the sea of brahma is just a sea that's outside Yahweh's plan and has no further explanation for this.

I don't equate it with a story. it's just that the layers of existence are like that.
The story of Lucifer also contains religious elements, it also carrying the concept of a dmatheist story about the sleep of Brahma and the Lord of order and the Parliament of trees.

Don't you understand? all gods are the creators of all things and end of all things, the concept of divinity only exists within the sphere of the gods.
if it's too pushy, is Mystery House superior to the Overvoid? because everything is gone except the house of mistery

So logically, all that is meant is the world he knows/created. since there was a layers of existence outside his world, higher realm like monitor sphere, he definitely didn't know about it.
maybe that's the reason why He said He was the creator of all things.

Every writer's has their own ideas and continuity in each comic and you can't equate idea Synder&Tynion's omniverse to the continuity of DeMatteis and Vertigo.

That's true but it has a different way working. in DeMatteis continuity the sea of brahma is treated as a place where everything will end and transcend all levels of existence. then in Lucifer vol 3 the sea of brahma is just a sea that's outside Yahweh's plan and has no further explanation for this.

Answer my question, is brahma a divine concept?
[Concept of Hinduism] [Pralaya concept in hinduism].
Where do you think the concept of a gods/hindu gods like Brahma fits in the DC universe? fifth dimension imagination?

Is it above the monitor nil? the overvoid? could cause a crisis? logically, that only applies in the sphere of the gods.

Indeed, there is no further explanation, the domain was not damaged/attacked by the hunting god. Surpassing a god's plan [one of the strongest] is an incredible feat.

That is an explanation the tree of life kabbalah and all its sefirot, Which has nothing with the concept of Hinduism.

I'm not equating their systems, I'm just talking about a cycle of beginnings and endings? it is only in the realm of the gods. even the apocalypse too.[Here Here] [Here] [Here]. Also [WW]

The fact that cannot be denied is that JMatheis only explains the concept of divinity and the divine realm only within the realm of the gods, yup SOG. Each god is a creator and destroyer

 

[Ramasugita11]

One plane A may be clearly superior to another plane B, but entities in plane A are not automatically superior to entities in plane B. Sphere of the gods was designed for the gods. Therefore, it is not a correct idea to directly say that the inhabitants of the monitor sphere are stronger.

But prime mandrak is super strong, in hyperstory. Defeated by plot armor. How the lower layers of hierarchy/existence, reach/interact with them without a story plot?

3Dimensional > 2Dimensional

 

[PrinceStories]

@Ramasugita11 I reiterate that, DC cosmology has been divided into its each continuity namely the cosmology crisis and in the future is spiritual cosmology. where spiritual cosmology has no connection with crisis cosmology, which means there will also be no monitor world, fifth dimension, sixth dimension and also crisis event material in that cosmology.

 

[Ramasugita11]

There is no division of cosmology based on author or whatever you mentioned, it is one of the Hindu concepts that only exists in the sphere of the Gods.
There is no such thing as a cosmological division, everything is DCU [main dcu or Black label]

DC Comics is now increasingly clarifying the existence and duties of every meta-physical creature.

Before the sphere of the gods/map of the multiverse was created, you were free to say anything. But gods [Archetypes] only existed in the sphere of the gods and the silver city that was once considered the peak of existence had been replaced many times by something new.

Perpetua, overvoid, true form great darkness, final heaven etc.
Just follow the storyline, there's nothing wrong with the placement and you didn't answer my question, thank you.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Don't just look at the difference, the difference is not that big, if you say the story is not the same. This Lucifer doesn't even follow the storyline of 2000's Lucifer.
Because there are infinite multiverses located in the greater omniverse. that makes all the storylines canon [another version of multiverse], I think it's okay to use that feats.
The important thing is that the layer of existence does not change, so it doesn't look strange.

That's not how continuity or canon works. It's not so much so the infinite Multiverses make it all connected. It just highlights that the Greater Omniverse contains different creators of different creations. These creations are not accredited to be directly mentioned in the other author's stories since all of them focus on the primary Multiverse which was changed throughout different runs.

This shouldn't be a difficult concept to grasp.

smile/brahman > brahma > true form pralaya > Lucifer > odin/achiless > lord of chaos.

Brahma is lower than Pralaya according to Matteis lore.

the similarities are clear:
•The concept of divinity is also the same, explaining the concept of divinity in Hinduism.
°the sea of nothingness is part of brahma sleep.
°The Ocean void of Brahma created naraka and perhaps the entire realm of the underworld, because it was different from the others [deeper than all the realms of the underworld].
°Even Yahweh's plan did not reach that place.

The sea of nothingness isn't part of the sleep. It is the sleep.

As for your “divinity” point, it doesn't really matter because Naraka is just a realm that's focalized to be nearly equivalent to Hell. It isn't part of Hell, it's a Hell of its own based on the Hindu belief which predates the Judeo-Christain view.

In the Concept of Hinduism, the story is also like that:
°Pralaya is part of the Brahma Ocean
°there is a cycle, the beginning is the end, the end is the beginning. [a concept like this only existed in the Sphere of the gods].

That scan highlights Kabbalah and the Tree of Life. Those pictures are mentions of each sefirot of the Tree, which has nothing to do with Hinduism nor has Matteis ever used Kabbalah. The level is also referencing all of Creation, not just the Sphere.

°Brahman/smile beyond the sea of brahma/pralaya.
°yahweh is one of the most Powerful gods that ever existed [only in the sphere of the gods], even his plans did not reach the sea of brahma.
°brahman/smile > yahweh/lucifer > odin/achiless [gods in the sphere of the gods] who is stronger than lord of order

It never said Yahweh was in the Sphere. When he can make and unmake Creation at will. Not to mention his stated to be one with the Void.

According to dmatheis comics, smile >> lord of order.
The current story only explains the layers of existence more clearly.

What current story? They don't mention layers of existence well like how Matteis did.

Stories about the creation of everything, Including
naraka [Hell in Hinduism], the creation of concepts etc, Brahman In the story of Lucifer also creates gods who have their own concepts, such as the goddess of misfortune.

Is this your reason for saying these are better explanations of layers? From what I've seen and read it doesn't really do anything other than show other religions.

Every god is the creator of everything according to his servants and once again, things like this only exist in the sphere of the gods.

so perpetua > monitor sphere > sphere of the gods
Do you agree with my opinion?

I don't agree with anything except Perpetua at full power being above these beings.

 

[Brahmatman]

@Ramasugita11 I reiterate that, DC cosmology has been divided into its each continuity namely the cosmology crisis and in the future is spiritual cosmology. where spiritual cosmology has no connection with crisis cosmology, which means there will also be no monitor world, fifth dimension, sixth dimension and also crisis event material in that cosmology.

Provide evidence that Vertigo and DC cosmologies have differences

 

[Brahmatman]

It never said Yahweh was in the Sphere. When he can make and unmake Creation at will. Not to mention his stated to be one with the Void.

The very terminology of the plane of existence, which includes the gods, was invented much later, but this does not negate its presence before creation. Creation is only one of the multiverse. The void is just a plane on which multiverses are created, even Darkseid is larger than it

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The very terminology of the plane of existence, which includes the gods, was invented much later, but this does not negate its presence before creation. Creation is only one of the multiverse. The void is just a plane on which multiverses are created, even Darkseid is larger than it

The Void at the end of Lucifer is way greater than Lucifer or any gods. Yahweh is the highest order and above the Endless who are the highest order within Creation beyond any gods. It's not just where things are created, it's everything and nothing where all things come back to. I'm not talking about the Abyss or the Void from Metal. The Lucifer Void is as close to what Matteis depicts as God as Parabrahman or the absolute Brahman.

The Void isn't a plane. It encompasses infinite Creations upon infinite and all that amounts to just 0 to a small portion. What you suggest is Darkseid > Lucifer, Yahweh, Void, Endless.

 

[Brahmatman]

The Void at the end of Lucifer is way greater than Lucifer or any gods. Yahweh is the highest order and above the Endless who are the highest order within Creation beyond any gods. It's not just where things are created, it's everything and nothing where all things come back to. I'm not talking about the Abyss or the Void from Metal. The Lucifer Void is as close to what Matteis depicts as God as Parabrahman or the absolute Brahman.

What happened before now does not matter for new comics, where The Void fits into the name of Darkseid.

the Endless who are the highest order within Creation beyond any gods.

This has never been stated. Endless same inhabitants of the world of gods

What you suggest is Darkseid > Lucifer, Yahweh, Void, Endless.

Anti-life has been called the end of all gods and things, and this is still Vertigo cosmology. Cain in the body of Vandal Savage declared that any New God is stronger than Yahweh. Anti-life expelled Yahweh, which has been confirmed several times.

 

[Elizio33]

This is gonna be really tacky as the New Gods have just about too many anti-feats, which heck, disqualifies them from being platonic/living thoughts. Although, if they're indeed platonic and have just about the same nature as the realms they inhabit, I frankly see no reason why they shouldn't scale to it. Also, the obvious problem it's mostly the 'top dogs' in these realms who've shown a level of superiority over the mortal plane and not just any inhabitants, as they do have 'civilians', if you will. So, even if they do, it should be for a named few.

Well, they were said to be platonic/living thoughts despite anti-feats like Darkseid being somewhat matched by Asmodel while his godhead/true form was restored. I think they should be either Unknown or scale to their Pre-Crisis selves. As you just said, they have many anti-feats despite sharing a similar nature to the Sphere of the Gods...