Fuji NEVER Cry [DMC Tier 1 Downgrades Yet Again]

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I would rather not be here.

The Original Claims

Tier 1 DMC is primarily based upon two statements as showcased in this blog (ignore the first half, as it is outdated), both indicating that the Demon World is qualitatively superior to the Human World. The first stems from the manga, where it is stated that the HW is but a mere ray of light against the endless darkness that is the DW (finite vs infinite, essentially; the DW has other statements of being infinite as well). This is backed up by DMC1, where the DW is shown to contain a mirror replica of the HW, implied to be its own space-time yet only acting as the entrance to the DW.

Both of these statements ostensibly fit the tiering system’s criteria of treating a low 2-C as infinitesimally small relative to (or embedding it within) oneself, therefore making the DW low 1-C.

About That Mirror World…

The mirror world being a low 2-C space embedded as a finite part of the DW is, at a glance, very solid… until you realize that it isn’t actually connected to the DW at all. When Dante accesses the DW at the end of DMC1, he is required to first enter the mirror world, and then break a seal which opens a portal to the DW. Now, this begs the question of why the portal is even necessary if these locations are effectively one and the same; They’re quite clearly meant to be different locations disjointed from one another, accessible only through special means. Given the necessity of opening the portal within the mirror world itself, it’s quite clear that it being the “entrance” to the DW is referring to the portal you use to enter the DW. Treating it as though it’s the metaphorical living room to the house that is the DW isn’t corroborated anywhere else.

Even if we did treat the mirror world as part of the DW, there’s still an issue with the evidence at hand. There’s also the statement about the entrance to it being a “window in space-time”, implying that it is a full space-time continuum. The obvious problem is that, if you want to treat the HW and DW as different space-times (which they are), and the mirror world as an extension of the DW, then a window in space-time is most likely referring to the DW and HW being separate space-times, not the DW and mirror world… which means the mirror world is not actually a low 2-C space, just a vaguely large space inside the DW. Of course, this assumes the statement actually means that, and isn’t just a “window in space-time” in the sense that it’s a portal.

So, either the mirror world is a different space-time, or it’s a part of the DW. It literally cannot be both at the same time. To be clear, the bit with the portal makes me believe it is in fact not a part of the DW at all, and the “entrance” line is merely being misinterpreted, but I wanted to cover both angles.

Is the Mirror World Even Universal, Though?

The above arguments were made under the pretense that the mirror world is, in fact, an entire universe and a smaller realm. That’s not necessarily accurate though, and in fact, the mirror world being a universe was clearly rejected once before (the thread itself was applied, though specifically the 9D upgrade; nobody really gave the go-ahead on the mirror world stuff).

First is the statement of evil being a reflection of man, and evil lurking inside the mirror. This has nothing to do with tiering at all. “Yeah bro there’s demons in there” =/= a low 2-C rating, shockingly.

There’s the statement about the mirror itself being a window in time and space, which doesn’t really indicate low 2-C. The mirror world itself isn’t what’s being described here, it’s the mirror that takes you to the mirror world; Basically, it’s saying it’s a portal, which is accurate. The statement doesn’t really give us any info on the properties of the mirror world, so we can toss it.

Then there’s the “reflects this world” statement, which, to be fair, looks good at a glance. Two problems though; First is that we don’t really see the full extent of the mirror world, and the art book implies it’s only really Mallet Island. Second is that our universe guidelines actually prohibit using this for low 2-C ratings:

“Saying that it "Mirrors your world" does not automatically equate to mirroring the entire universe you came from as World can also mean planet. And it can even refer to locations in between planet and Universe. And even if the realms are larger than planet sized, the "Your World" aspect often refers to specific sceneries rather than the entire Space-Time Continuum. And just because world frequently refers to universe doesn't mean everything larger than a planet that is called a world is a universe.”

So none of these statements are particularly usable, unfortunately. I’d prefer to save this argument for if the above section on the mirror world is denied, just so the text walls don’t get too long.

Higher-Dimensional Demons?!?!?!

I’ve occasionally seen these scans crop up as arguments for the DW having some sort of superiority. These are pretty easy to tackle one by one:

-This is referring to the war between humans and demons before Sparda showed up and cleaned house, the obvious implication being that humans were getting massacred because they cannot physically compare to demons. Doesn’t have much of anything to do with dimensions.

-This was originally claimed to be Mundus creating a world of “similar proportions” to the DW, which uh… no??? It’s said to be infinitely expanding, but no scan compares it to the DW in any way - It’s its own thing entirely. Even if the comparison were valid, being “beyond human comprehension” doesn’t mean a whole lot; Not only are there a lot of things humans can’t comprehend that aren’t higher dimensions, but demons and the DW both already induce madness by existing, which fits the bill for “beyond comprehension” just fine.

-This is the “scan” for the third claim, that being that the DW can affect large parts of the HW just by merging a small part of itself with it. Aside from the obvious issue of “why the **** are you linking an entire CRT as your evidence instead of just a regular scan”, this feat, again has nothing to do with dimensional superiority. Not relevant in the slightest.

-There’s this scan which… aside from the fact that it’s just kinda hard to read, referring to a human as an “insignificant insect” is just tropey villain talk. It’s no indication of dimensional superiority, or any real superiority at all since words like this are obviously just bragging.

-Finally there’s the statement of it being like one is looking at infinity compared to a demon. Again, as we’re dealing with regular humans here, it’s natural to assume that this is in reference to the very clear difference in power between humans and demons. A Normal Guy would, in fact, feel pretty insignificant next to a literal demon from hell that brings despair in their wake and has enough power to tear the universe apart, regardless of higher-dimensional nonsense.

So yeah, none of these statements are particularly relevant, but they’ve been used as supporting evidence before so I wanted to tackle them anyways.

Okay, but the Ray of Light Scan is Still Valid, Right?

Then you’d be using a one-off, possibly flowery statement in secondary canon in order to scale an entire verse to higher-dimensional levels of power. But ignoring that, at least this single statement still fits the low 1-C criteria, right? Uh…

“Characters or objects that can universally affect, create and/or destroy spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)”

This is fine. If this was the only paragraph describing low 1-C, DMC would qualify if you buy the ray of light thing. But the requirements for tier 1 don’t stop there:

“Characters or objects that can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal.”

That’s where we run into qualitative superiority, which has a few interesting caveats to it:

“In the same vein a space being qualitatively superior to another space, means that destroying that space would land you on a higher level of infinity in the Tiering System than destroying the space it is superior to. In rough terms it means as much as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size".

Right off the bat, it’s made clear that being countably infinitely greater than a low 2-C space is not enough; Rather, you need to go one step beyond that. The DW has no statements or implications that’d place it above countable infinity in terms of its size difference when compared to the HW.

“The reason it is called qualitative superiority is that, instead of quantitative terms such as being 2 times, 100 times or even infinite times more powerful or greater, this type of superiority is typically justified by the nature of the superiority. The most standard case is dimensionality, where a difference in the quality that is dimensionality, implies the necessary quantitative difference. Another typical example is reality-fiction differences. Those are cases like viewing a plane of reality as mere fiction, like for example writing on a sheet of paper or a dream. They are assumed to imply superiority of a similar scale.”

Here, it’s yet again stated that an infinite difference is not enough to qualify for qualitative superiority; Instead, the difference is reliant on things such as R > F difference (not relevant here), and a difference in dimensionality. Now the obvious issue is that the ray of light statement doesn’t really go into too much detail, which makes it impossible for us to go “yeah sure it’s talking about higher dimensions”.

“As the idea of "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size" implies, most statements of superiority wouldn't suffice to reach qualitative superiority, even if applied to already being infinitely stronger than the baselines for the level. E.g. being twice, a hundred or even infinite times stronger than a Multiverse level+ character, who already has infinite multiversal strength, would still not be enough to reach qualitative superiority over a multiverse.”

And then we wrap right back around to most statements of superiority, even those referring to infinite gaps above infinity, are simply not enough to qualify.

As you can plainly see, just being vaguely infinitely greater than a low 2-C space is not in fact sufficient to reach low 1-C levels of power. We have blatant rules in place to prevent a vague “infinitely larger than” statement from upgrading an entire verse to low 1-C. Take the ray of light statement as you will, it’s way too vague to assume it’s referring to dimensionality and not just size (or literally any other metric of measurement that people tend to think of before higher dimensions). The nature of this superiority is simply not elaborated on in any other DMC content; Taking it as qualitative superiority by default is a massive reach, especially since it’s just one statement.

Of course, what about the other two standards I see DMC supporters use to defend tier 1? Well, they have their own reasons for being inapplicable here:

“One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc.”

Given that the mirror world can either be the same space-time as the DW, or not part of the DW at all, it wouldn’t be “embedded” in anything.

“However, vaguer cases where a universe is merely stated to be higher-dimensional while existing in a scaling vacuum with no previously established relationship of superiority towards lower-dimensional ones (or no evidence to infer such a relationship from) should be analyzed more carefully. In such cases where information as to their exact nature and scale is scarce, it is preferable that the higher dimensions in question be fully-sized in order to qualify.”

PoC is no longer being used, and seeing as this statement was used to defend the “9-dimensional soul” statement from that game, it would no longer apply. There are no other implications of the DW possessing higher spatial/geometric dimensions, either.

So… the ray of light doesn’t meet the standards for qualitative superiority, the mirror world doesn’t factor into this argument at all, and PoC is… well, yknow. So what does that leave us with? That’s right, absolutely nothing.

EDIT: As pointed out below, @DontTalkDT has pretty much said that you can't get low 1-C just by being infinitely larger than a tier 2 structure.

TL;DR: im tired man, just bring back the 2-C ratings

AGREE: @Antvasima, @Deagonx, @Firestorm808, @Maverick_Zero_X, @Eficiente, @Ultima_Reality
DISAGREE: @Elizhaa, @Planck69, @DarkDragonMedeus, @LephyrTheRevanchist
NEUTRAL: @Theglassman12

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Please remember to keep things respectful here. Also, please do not derail the thread, or spam text walls; I'd prefer if DMC supporters took their time to write a single post of their collective thoughts, instead of like 5 different ones at once. @Theglassman12 will be spectating so fucking behave.

 

[Georredannea15]

"HERE WE GO!"

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Comments like that are also unnecessary.

 

[Georredannea15]

Anyway, man. I'm not getting into this, I'm just waiting for supporters.

 

[KLOL506]

@Sevil Natas @RedReaper @Tony_di_bugalu @GilverTheProtoAngelo @Random-Helper323 @Mister6ame6 @Dienomite22 @Theglassman12 @EFÍTÉ @Lightning_XXI @Ibrahem @TISSG7Redgrave @Oliver_de_jesus @Abstractions @Planck69 @Emirp sumitpo @DarkGrath @LephyrTheRevanchist @Lonkitt @CrimsonStarFallen @UchihaSlayer96

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

@Sevil Natas @RedReaper @Tony_di_bugalu @GilverTheProtoAngelo @Random-Helper323 @Mister6ame6 @Dienomite22 @Theglassman12 @EFÍTÉ @Lightning_XXI @Ibrahem @TISSG7Redgrave @Oliver_de_jesus @Abstractions @Planck69 @Emirp sumitpo

Not that you owe me anything here, but i'd be grateful if you could ping some tiering system experts and other staff as well.

 

[KLOL506]

@Ultima_Reality @DontTalkDT @Executor_N0 @Sir_Ovens @Elizhaa @DarkDragonMedeus @Celestial_Pegasus @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura @Maverick_Zero_X @Just_a_Random_Butler @LordGriffin1000

 

[Qawsedf234]

I mean, your comments look fine but I'm not familiar with DMC. I'll wait for more responses.

 

[Aetheric Pariah]

Before the inevitable long winded discussion that will most likely end up in a staff only thread I want to get clarification on the premise of the thread. Trivializing space-time continuum(s) alone is not enough to obtain a tier 1 rating and DMC supporters will need to provide further evidence to retain their tier 1 ratings correct?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Before the inevitable long winded discussion that will most likely end up in a staff only thread I want to get clarification on the premise of the thread. Trivializing space-time continuum(s) alone is not enough to obtain a tier 1 rating and DMC supporters will need to provide further evidence to retain their tier 1 ratings correct?

More or less, yes, but "trivializing a space-time continuum" is enough so long as there's enough context. You can't just be infinitely larger and call it a day, basically.

 

[RedReaper616]

I’m not going to lie

I don’t have an actual rebuttal to the L1-C argument (I couldn’t think of a single valid one).

But I fully prefer 2-C DMC over L1-C DMC, and have said as much to the rest of the Supporters. So, this thread won’t be seeing much resistance for me, and will probably be more of a Tony, Sevil, and Gilver effort.

 

[Georredannea15]

Before the inevitable long winded discussion that will most likely end up in a staff only thread I want to get clarification on the premise of the thread. Trivializing space-time continuum(s) alone is not enough to obtain a tier 1 rating and DMC supporters will need to provide further evidence to retain their tier 1 ratings correct?

Not only that, it is still not Tier 1 as it is infinitely larger than a Low 2-C or any universal or infinite 4-D structure. This is not enough, I think a few more explanations are needed for this.

As DT said here

 

[Random-Helper323]

.

I have to ask in advance, where would you ideally want DMC to be tiered as, in your ideal long term outcome? Not just from this thread, but your actual placement of the verse in your ideal situation. Is it 2-C, higher, or lower?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I have to ask in advance, where would you ideally want DMC to be tiered as, in your ideal long term outcome? Not just from this thread, but your actual placement of the verse in your ideal situation. Is it 2-C, higher, or lower?

2-C. All the feats I've seen for it are pretty damn solid even after seeing the whole g1 "debunk" thing go down, and 2-C is the most based tier anyways. Don't think I've seen a single tier 2 DMC feat I have an issue with, actually.

 

[Random-Helper323]

2-C. All the feats I've seen for it are pretty damn solid even after seeing the whole g1 "debunk" thing go down, and 2-C is the most based tier anyways. Don't think I've seen a single tier 2 DMC feat I have an issue with, actually.

That's good to know. You might not know this, but a big reason DMC supporters get so defensive is because of severe bias against, or in some cases just lazy ignorance of, the verse in terms of tiering in the past. Prior to 2008 the OBD tiered DMC at Wall level, and the Saviour feats in DMC4 caused them to upgrade the verse to 8-A. When DontTalk released his Abigail cloud calculation people tried to dismiss it as only working on clouds. And the same trends only continue from there.

I guess you do know this though, after G1 released a blog that used nothing but conjecture to "debunk" DMC while crediting Hellboy with the full force of a surface destroying blast because he survived being hit with a miniscule amount of it.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

I would rather not be here.

Yet you are. Also thanks to you we can get a rule against downgrading DMC now with the amount of attempts people had with shit tier arguments.

About That Mirror World…

The mirror world being a low 2-C space embedded as a finite part of the DW is, at a glance, very solid… until you realize that it isn’t actually connected to the DW at all. When Dante accesses the DW at the end of DMC1, he is required to first enter the mirror world, and then break a seal which opens a portal to the DW. Now, this begs the question of why the portal is even necessary if these locations are effectively one and the same; They’re quite clearly meant to be different locations disjointed from one another, accessible only through special means. Given the necessity of opening the portal within the mirror world itself, it’s quite clear that it being the “entrance” to the DW is referring to the portal you use to enter the DW. Treating it as though it’s the metaphorical living room to the house that is the DW isn’t corroborated anywhere else.

Even if we did treat the mirror world as part of the DW, there’s still an issue with the evidence at hand. There’s also the statement about the entrance to it being a “window in space-time”, implying that it is a full space-time continuum. The obvious problem is that, if you want to treat the HW and DW as different space-times (which they are), and the mirror world as an extension of the DW, then a window in space-time is most likely referring to the DW and HW being separate space-times, not the DW and mirror world… which means the mirror world is not actually a low 2-C space, just a vaguely large space inside the DW. Of course, this assumes the statement actually means that, and isn’t just a “window in space-time” in the sense that it’s a portal.

So, either the mirror world is a different space-time, or it’s a part of the DW. It literally cannot be both at the same time. To be clear, the bit with the portal makes me believe it is in fact not a part of the DW at all, and the “entrance” line is merely being misinterpreted, but I wanted to cover both angles.

The mirror that reflects this world is the entrance to the demon world! This demon's cave, where he cannot even breathe, distorts Dante's consciousness with its powerful demonic sea air and robs him of his vision. "The Stone of the Bridge is in Dante's hand, and the demons surround him in a frenzy.

There is 0 ways to misinterpret that shit. Now there are two reasons why despite entering the demon world you can't go further so we will go over them in order:

1) In DMC1 Dante needs to do a lot of stuff to cross over the demon world and that's because a sneaky little devil placed a little seal to prevent demons from crossing over. To quote it:
“The dimensional wall between the Demon World and Human World can be said to be like a net.

High-ranking Demons cannot come to this world unless favorable conditions have been met due to their power, but low-ranking demons are able to easily pass through this net.


Basically Dante goes to the "entrance" or how we call it "the doorstep" of the demon world where he needs to undo Daddy's little spell because he, like many other demons, is too strong to simply cross.

2) The mirror dimension is one of the many dimensions the Demon World has. All through DMC we come to learn there are several "hells", from the fire hell Berial conquered and later Balrog claimed to the Forest Hell Echidna had domain over or the 7 hells from DMC3, several nirvana dimensions, etc. Think of the demon world as this higher dimensional plane where several dimensions/realms are embedded/integrated to.

And finally yes, it can be both. Why? Because the mirror dimension is one of the many dimensions inside the demon world. It is it's own space-time as it is a copy of the human world and it is part of the demon world in the same way the other dimensions (including the Human World) used to be.

Is the Mirror World Even Universal, Though?

The above arguments were made under the pretense that the mirror world is, in fact, an entire universe and a smaller realm. That’s not necessarily accurate though, and in fact, the mirror world being a universe was clearly rejected once before (the thread itself was applied, though specifically the 9D upgrade; nobody really gave the go-ahead on the mirror world stuff).

First is the statement of evil being a reflection of man, and evil lurking inside the mirror. This has nothing to do with tiering at all. “Yeah bro there’s demons in there” =/= a low 2-C rating, shockingly.

There’s the statement about the mirror itself being a window in time and space, which doesn’t really indicate low 2-C. The mirror world itself isn’t what’s being described here, it’s the mirror that takes you to the mirror world; Basically, it’s saying it’s a portal, which is accurate. The statement doesn’t really give us any info on the properties of the mirror world, so we can toss it.

Then there’s the “reflects this world” statement, which, to be fair, looks good at a glance. Two problems though; First is that we don’t really see the full extent of the mirror world, and the art book implies it’s only really Mallet Island. Second is that our universe guidelines actually prohibit using this for low 2-C ratings:

So none of these statements are particularly usable, unfortunately. I’d prefer to save this argument for if the above section on the mirror world is denied, just so the text walls don’t get too long.

This is flawed from the very beginning as Ovens didn't even realize the Human World is actually a standard Low 2-C universe. Another thing is that he conceded soo...

So, the statement is "the mirror that reflects this world", "Inside the mirror is the same world as the old castle". We argue this is a universal statement because, as you should have realized by now, when talking about "World" (i.e. Human World, Demon World, This World) they are talking about the universe and in the very few times they are talking about the planet they usually refer it to "earth" or "planet" and very, very rarely they refer to the planet as "world"

I know the standards you are trying to use but context is king and as such we can use the standards for the same purpose with actual knowledge of the context behind the usage of "World" in DMC:

• If they're stated to mirror "The Universe" or "Our Universe" or "The Real World", they would refer to being universes.

Higher-Dimensional Demons?!?!?!

I’ve occasionally seen these scans crop up as arguments for the DW having some sort of superiority. These are pretty easy to tackle one by one:

-This is referring to the war between humans and demons before Sparda showed up and cleaned house, the obvious implication being that humans were getting massacred because they cannot physically compare to demons. Doesn’t have much of anything to do with dimensions.

Uhhh I don't remember we used this in any of the blogs

-This was originally claimed to be Mundus creating a world of “similar proportions” to the DW, which uh… no??? It’s said to be infinitely expanding, but no scan compares it to the DW in any way - It’s its own thing entirely. Even if the comparison were valid, being “beyond human comprehension” doesn’t mean a whole lot; Not only are there a lot of things humans can’t comprehend that aren’t higher dimensions, but demons and the DW both already induce madness by existing, which fits the bill for “beyond comprehension” just fine.

What? No, we use this because Mundus created an infinitely expanding universe beyond human comprehension as a mere battleground for their fight. Something as impressive as that is basically nothing compared to the whole kingdom and it's very consistent with Mundus not wanting to get his kingdom destroyed, especially in a fight against his biggest foe so far.

1) How is inducing madness related at all to the scan in question? Even more so when this is a pocket dimension that (as far as we know) shares nothing with the demon world?

2) The scan is specifically states the realm itself is beyond human comprehension, not because it causes weird shit or anything else but because it's exactly that, a dimension beyond human understanding.

-This is the “scan” for the third claim, that being that the DW can affect large parts of the HW just by merging a small part of itself with it. Aside from the obvious issue of “why the ***** are you linking an entire CRT as your evidence instead of just a regular scan”, this feat, again has nothing to do with dimensional superiority. Not relevant in the slightest.

What has this to do? what? why did you link a crt?

-There’s this scan which… aside from the fact that it’s just kinda hard to read, referring to a human as an “insignificant insect” is just tropey villain talk. It’s no indication of dimensional superiority, or any real superiority at all since words like this are obviously just bragging.

Ah yes, let us ignore the whole second line of the scan where Demons refer to the human world as insignificant as the humans in it.

The scan is cropped because the rest is irrelevant but here is the page in case you are wondering.

-Finally there’s the statement of it being like one is looking at infinity compared to a demon. Again, as we’re dealing with regular humans here, it’s natural to assume that this is in reference to the very clear difference in power between humans and demons. A Normal Guy would, in fact, feel pretty insignificant next to a literal demon from hell that brings despair in their wake and has enough power to tear the universe apart, regardless of higher-dimensional nonsense.

So yeah, none of these statements are particularly relevant, but they’ve been used as supporting evidence before so I wanted to tackle them anyways.

He isn't a regular human, he is a human who has acquired demonic power, literally one of the main villains in the third game.

These scans came first as part of the whole 9D demons are higher dimensional PoC stuff, now its gone but the idea behind stays along with these scans and it is that demons see the human world as insignificant as it is since it originally was an infinitesimal part of the demon world.

Okay, but the Ray of Light Scan is Still Valid, Right?

Then you’d be using a one-off, possibly flowery statement in secondary canon in order to scale an entire verse to higher-dimensional levels of power. But ignoring that, at least this single statement still fits the low 1-C criteria, right? Uh…

You already tried that last time and failed terribly so if I were you I wouldn't try again because I will give you the same answer

Also where did you get the idea the manga is secondary canon? Really curious about that one.

This is fine. If this was the only paragraph describing low 1-C, DMC would qualify if you buy the ray of light thing. But the requirements for tier 1 don’t stop there:

That’s where we run into qualitative superiority, which has a few interesting caveats to it:

Right off the bat, it’s made clear that being countably infinitely greater than a low 2-C space is not enough; Rather, you need to go one step beyond that. The DW has no statements or implications that’d place it above countable infinity in terms of its size difference when compared to the HW.

Here, it’s yet again stated that an infinite difference is not enough to qualify for qualitative superiority; Instead, the difference is reliant on things such as R > F difference (not relevant here), and a difference in dimensionality. Now the obvious issue is that the ray of light statement doesn’t really go into too much detail, which makes it impossible for us to go “yeah sure it’s talking about higher dimensions”.

And then we wrap right back around to most statements of superiority, even those referring to infinite gaps above infinity, are simply not enough to qualify.

As you can plainly see, just being vaguely infinitely greater than a low 2-C space is not in fact sufficient to reach low 1-C levels of power. We have blatant rules in place to prevent a vague “infinitely larger than” statement from upgrading an entire verse to low 1-C. Take the ray of light statement as you will, it’s way too vague to assume it’s referring to dimensionality and not just size (or literally any other metric of measurement that people tend to think of before higher dimensions). The nature of this superiority is simply not elaborated on in any other DMC content; Taking it as qualitative superiority by default is a massive reach, especially since it’s just one statement.

Of course, what about the other two standards I see DMC supporters use to defend tier 1? Well, they have their own reasons for being inapplicable here:

Given that the mirror world can either be the same space-time as the DW, or not part of the DW at all, it wouldn’t be “embedded” in anything.

PoC is no longer being used, and seeing as this statement was used to defend the “9-dimensional soul” statement from that game, it would no longer apply. There are no other implications of the DW possessing higher spatial/geometric dimensions, either.

So… the ray of light doesn’t meet the standards for qualitative superiority, the mirror world doesn’t factor into this argument at all, and PoC is… well, yknow. So what does that leave us with? That’s right, absolutely nothing.

TL;DR: im tired man, just bring back the 2-C ratings

Basically, like I said in the other thread, its a combination of things. The demon world being infinitely bigger in relation to the human world is the primary one while the others are the explanation why it actually counts as a Low 1-C space: the human world being a subset of the demon world, several other dimensions (like the mirror world) being subsets of the demon world, demons themselves considering the human world just as insignificant as the humans in it, a single nexus being capable of consuming the human world, etc.


And that's it. I honestly don't think there is much if anything at all to discuss so I won't bother arguing anything else (unless its plain stupid and even then...) so just call staff and let them check both sides or keep arguing.

 

[KLOL506]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot.

@Tanin_iver

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Yet you are. Also thanks to you we can get a rule against downgrading DMC now with the amount of attempts people had with shit tier arguments.

The mirror that reflects this world is the entrance to the demon world! This demon's cave, where he cannot even breathe, distorts Dante's consciousness with its powerful demonic sea air and robs him of his vision. "The Stone of the Bridge is in Dante's hand, and the demons surround him in a frenzy.

Right, it's the entrance because you enter a portal to go there. That doesn't mean they're the same location.

1) In DMC1 Dante needs to do a lot of stuff to cross over the demon world and that's because a sneaky little devil placed a little seal to prevent demons from crossing over. To quote it:
“The dimensional wall between the Demon World and Human World can be said to be like a net.

High-ranking Demons cannot come to this world unless favorable conditions have been met due to their power, but low-ranking demons are able to easily pass through this net.

Basically Dante goes to the "entrance" or how we call it "the doorstep" of the demon world where he needs to undo Daddy's little spell because he, like many other demons, is too strong to simply cross.

Clarify something for me real quick; When you say "high-ranking demons", does that apply to anyone with Sparda Heritage, or does that only go for those with high-tier demon physiology? The scan also claims that demon hunters are the "lowest of the low", which I assume doesn't apply to Dante, but I'd like more clarification on that.

2) The mirror dimension is one of the many dimensions the Demon World has. All through DMC we come to learn there are several "hells", from the fire hell Berial conquered and later Balrog claimed to the Forest Hell Echidna had domain over or the 7 hells from DMC3, several nirvana dimensions, etc. Think of the demon world as this higher dimensional plane where several dimensions/realms are embedded/integrated to.

Uhhh... This doesn't disprove anything I said, though?? You just say "the mirror world is in the demon world" and then restate what's already claimed in the blog. Also, are those hells low 2-C universes? Because if not, they serve 0 purpose in this discussion.

And finally yes, it can be both. Why? Because the mirror dimension is one of the many dimensions inside the demon world. It is it's own space-time as it is a copy of the human world and it is part of the demon world in the same way the other dimensions (including the Human World) used to be.

Again, you have done literally nothing to prove that the mirror dimension is a dimension embedded inside the demon world. You can't just say "it's both because I said so".

Like, you didn't even address how, if the mirror world is part of the demon world, that would mean it being a different space-time than the human world would just apply to the demon world, meaning there'd be nothing indicating that the mirror world is its own low 2-C space (instead, it'd just be an extension of an already tier 2 realm).

This is flawed from the very beginning as Ovens didn't even realize the Human World is actually a standard Low 2-C universe. Another thing is that he conceded soo...

I covered that. He conceded to 9D stats because of Ultima; At no point did he suddenly go "yeah the mirror world stuff is okay too ig". Do not sit here and lie to me about what staff did and did not say.

So, the statement is "the mirror that reflects this world", "Inside the mirror is the same world as the old castle". We argue this is a universal statement because, as you should have realized by now, when talking about "World" (i.e. Human World, Demon World, This World) they are talking about the universe and in the very few times they are talking about the planet they usually refer it to "earth" or "planet" and very, very rarely they refer to the planet as "world"

This is a deeply flawed claim, because you cannot say "well the series usually uses this term in this way, so it must always mean that". There is simply nothing indicating that the mirror world exists beyond what we see in-game.

Uhhh I don't remember we used this in any of the blogs

Twas in this CRT:

https://vsbattles.com/threads/chaos-made-me-higher-dimensional-meme-dmc-edition.131563/

What? No, we use this because Mundus created an infinitely expanding universe beyond human comprehension as a mere battleground for their fight. Something as impressive as that is basically nothing compared to the whole kingdom and it's very consistent with Mundus not wanting to get his kingdom destroyed, especially in a fight against his biggest foe so far.

So like

he makes a universe as a battleground (this is fine)

What on earth does this have to do with the demon world being 5D?????

1) How is inducing madness related at all to the scan in question? Even more so when this is a pocket dimension that (as far as we know) shares nothing with the demon world?

2) The scan is specifically states the realm itself is beyond human comprehension, not because it causes weird shit or anything else but because it's exactly that, a dimension beyond human understanding.

1. If the demon world drives humans insane, and is also beyond their comprehension, then it stands to reason that those two are related (things that drive humans insane on sight could easily be described as beyond their understanding). Certainly more plausible than jumping right to higher dimensions.
2. Something being beyond human understanding does not make it tier 1. No standard can vouch for this.

What has this to do? what? why did you link a crt?

That was what Gilver linked to justify that particular bit of info. Take it up with him, not me.

Ah yes, let us ignore the whole second line of the scan where Demons refer to the human world as insignificant as the humans in it.

How the hell are you getting "the human world is a lower dimension in comparison to the demon world" from a barely comprehensible, broken english statement like "such an insignificant this as the world"? Like if it does say that, then I'll argue over it, but for the love of god please find a version of this scan that makes sense.

He isn't a regular human, he is a human who has acquired demonic power, literally one of the main villains in the third game.

Then this statement makes even less sense. A guy with demonic power looking at other demonic powers and going "wow I feel infinitely small" is... less related to the human world than I originally thought. Like what is that supposed to imply? That demons transcend their own powers?

These scans came first as part of the whole 9D demons are higher dimensional PoC stuff, now its gone but the idea behind stays along with these scans and it is that demons see the human world as insignificant as it is since it originally was an infinitesimal part of the demon world.

Literally none of the statements say that. And like I said before, phrases like "this insignificant world" are extremely common villain monologue talk, not used to indicate dimensional superiority, but more often used to say "I view you as beneath me because I'm super strong and have an ego the size of a truck".

You already tried that last time and failed terribly so if I were you I wouldn't try again because I will give you the same answer

Wasn't even part of my argument pal. Just saying that one could interpret it as that, so it's not totally rock solid. What do you think the "possibly" meant?

Also where did you get the idea the manga is secondary canon? Really curious about that one.

We don't consider manga adaptations of things like games primary canon by default. Of course, I could be wrong about that, given I didn't look too deeply into the manga's canonicity.

Basically, like I said in the other thread, its a combination of things. The demon world being infinitely bigger in relation to the human world is the primary one while the others are the explanation why it actually counts as a Low 1-C space: the human world being a subset of the demon world, several other dimensions (like the mirror world) being subsets of the demon world, demons themselves considering the human world just as insignificant as the humans in it, a single nexus being capable of consuming the human world, etc.

Dude

There are three separate quotes from the tiering FAQ stating that an infinite size difference does not count. You have not proven that the human world is a subset of the demon world beyond a vague "nuh uh", you haven't explained a damn thing about those other dimensions (and you certainly haven't proven that they're low 2-C), you haven't explained how the demons saying the human world is insignificant isn't just egocentric boasting, and "consuming the human world" means jack shit for higher dimensionality.

 

[Vietthai96]

I'm gonna address about tiering system that, while infinite larger than Low 2-C without context could possibly not be Low 1-C, the thing is @DontTalkDT forget that, Low 2-C structure are always distributed, embedded in 5D space/5th dimensional axis, the tiering system directly recognize this, and many already said, if said 5D space/5th axis is significantly large, preferably infinite in size and it is tierable which is Low 1-C, and in this case Demon Realm qualify for it.

Now is that all??, no but also the fact that Demon Realm is infinitely larger than Human World, but also treat it as insignificant (a ray of light) which is another way to say qualitative superior, another proof that qualify for Low 1-C

Lastly i have said it already in that Q&A thread, flowery language isn't a counter-argument, i dislike the fact that when peoples don't like something they either use Outlier or flowery language argument as a magical button that automatically disregard everything without actually debating the contexts, fiction authors can and have been multiple time using flowery, hypebole, metaphorical language to describe something literal, it is the art of writing that should be acknowledged, let alone in this situation said "flowery language" being backed up by other sources

Anyway i just there to arguing about tiering system, about arguing scans, Tony and Gilver have them so.....

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I am going to be neutral for now.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Time has come and so have I

Well not yet, I'll be back after my job and join in on the fun.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm gonna address about tiering system that, while infinite larger than Low 2-C without context could possibly not be Low 1-C, the thing is @DontTalkDT forget that, Low 2-C structure are always distributed, embedded in 5D space/5th dimensional axis, the tiering system directly recognize this, and many already said, if said 5D space/5th axis is significantly large, preferably infinite in size and it is tierable which is Low 1-C, and in this case Demon Realm qualify for it.

"The thing one of the guys who regularly changes the whole tiering system forgets-" Stop. This is embarrassing. No standard can vouch for low 2-C spaces always being embedded in a 5th dimensional space; That is an insane claim with 0 evidence backing it. Saying it's "embedded" in this case is also wrong because 0 evidence has been provided to claim that the HW is embedded in the DW. You can't just assert shit and go "that's my argument", you actually need to prove it.

Now is that all??, no but also the fact that Demon Realm is infinitely larger than Human World, but also treat it as insignificant (a ray of light) which is another way to say qualitative superior, another proof that qualify for Low 1-C

The ray of light statement is the exact same reason why it's infinitely larger, though. There is no context that would suggest the comparison goes beyond "the demon world is really big and the human world is really small", which the tiering system EXPLICITLY AND REPEATEDLY says is not good enough.

Lastly i have said it already in that Q&A thread, flowery language isn't a counter-argument, i dislike the fact that when peoples don't like something they either use Outlier or flowery language argument as a magical button that automatically disregard everything without actually debating the contexts, fiction authors can and have been multiple time using flowery, hypebole, metaphorical language to describe something literal, it is the art of writing that should be acknowledged, let alone in this situation said "flowery language" being backed up by other sources

My guy it was 3 words that I worded as "possibly" being the case, chill out. I can remove it from the OP if it'll make you stop whining about it.

 

[Vietthai96]

Idk what happened with the site recently because it load extremely long, despite my internet being good lol. Anyway

"The thing one of the guys who regularly changes the whole tiering system forgets-" Stop. This is embarrassing. No standard can vouch for low 2-C spaces always being embedded in a 5th dimensional space; That is an insane claim with 0 evidence backing it. Saying it's "embedded" in this case is also wrong because 0 evidence has been provided to claim that the HW is embedded in the DW. You can't just assert shit and go "that's my argument", you actually need to prove it.

I'm on phone so it a pain in the ass, but currently, the tiering system default that 4d structure and embedded, distributed across 5d space/5th axis, so right now i don't need to prove anything, like how universal space-time continuum/timeline default being 4d structure. If you think we need to prove it, change the current tiering system

The ray of light statement is the exact same reason why it's infinitely larger, though. There is no context that would suggest the comparison goes beyond "the demon world is really big and the human world is really small", which the tiering system EXPLICITLY AND REPEATEDLY says is not good enough

It again isn't disprove anything toward Low 1-C. In fact your interpretation actually support Low 1-C case

My guy it was 3 words that I worded as "possibly" being the case, chill out. I can remove it from the OP if it'll make you stop whining about it.

Sure i'm whining however i'm not intentionally offend you in case you wonder, but the fact on this site that, people have been abusing flowery language as a magical counter-argument for a very long time, i'm just tired seeing that argument all

Edit: sorry i wrote bad lol, no ill intent, reply on phone is hell

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm on phone so it a pain in the ass, but currently, the tiering system default that 4d structure and embedded, distributed across 5d space/5th axis, so right now i don't need to prove anything, like how universal space-time continuum/timeline default being 4d structure. If you think we need to prove it, change the current tiering system

"My claims are true because they are true, therefore I don't need to provide evidence". Show me where on the wiki it says that all low 2-C spaces are embedded in 5D space by default. If you cannot show that, then I will assume it's something you just made up. Rather simple.

It again isn't disprove anything toward Low 1-C. In fact your interpretation actually support Low 1-C case

Again, you're just. claiming shit. with 0 evidence. The tiering systems clearly says "simply being infinitely larger than low 2-C isn't enough". DT has repeated the same sentiment on the forum. That explicitly disproves low 1-C unless you have evidence to the contrary - Evidence which you have not provided.

 

[ÆONS]

I'm pretty sure that Ultima stated multiple times at least last year that being larger than any Tier 2 structure, whether Low 2-C or 2-A would get you Low 1-C simply because you can't be larger than a countably infinite large 4-D structure while still remaining 4-D yourself. You'd have to be uncountably infinitely 4-D in size in order to be larger than such a thing, meaning that you'd be Low 1-C at least in sheer size. In fact, a multiverse with uncountably infinite 4-D universes would also count for Low 1-C if I'm not mistaken, so there is precedent for such a thing to occur. Speaking of which, I also remember that there were a plethora of revisions which upgraded numerous characters to Low 1-C at least partially based off of this principle like DOOM iirc (their characters are still Low 1-C btw).

I also remember at least one time DontTalk had contested Ultima's reasoning for this but I don't remember if it reached any conclusion. Someone should probably try to contact both of them in order to set things straight for everyone, at least to make it clear whether Ultima changed their opinion on the matter.

As for the argument and counterargument, I'm neutral for now.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I'm pretty sure that Ultima stated multiple times at least last year that being larger than any Tier 2 structure, whether Low 2-C or 2-A would get you Low 1-C simply because you can't be larger than a countably infinite large 4-D structure while still remaining 4-D yourself. You'd have to be uncountably infinitely 4-D in size in order to be larger than such a thing, meaning that you'd be Low 1-C at least in sheer size. In fact, a multiverse with uncountably infinite 4-D universes would also count for Low 1-C if I'm not mistaken, so there is precedent for such a thing to occur. Speaking of which, I also remember that there were a plethora of revisions which upgraded numerous characters to Low 1-C at least partially based off of this principle like DOOM iirc (their characters are still Low 1-C btw).

The issue is that this logic just. Doesn't line up with what's actually stated in the tiering FAQ, which is what we should be referring to in cases like this. As shown below:

“The reason it is called qualitative superiority is that, instead of quantitative terms such as being 2 times, 100 times or even infinite times more powerful or greater, this type of superiority is typically justified by the nature of the superiority. The most standard case is dimensionality, where a difference in the quality that is dimensionality, implies the necessary quantitative difference. Another typical example is reality-fiction differences. Those are cases like viewing a plane of reality as mere fiction, like for example writing on a sheet of paper or a dream. They are assumed to imply superiority of a similar scale.”

We very clearly do allow for something to be 2, 100, or even infinity times greater than a low 2-C space without being low 1-C. While I don't doubt that Ultima probably said that at some point at time, and while I do trust his word on tiering matters, he can't simply override the site standards.

I also remember at least one time DontTalk had contested Ultima's reasoning for this but I don't remember if it reached any conclusion. Someone should probably try to contact both of them in order to set things straight for everyone, at least to make it clear whether Ultima changed their opinion on the matter.

This is a good idea, yeah.

 

[Hasty12345]

I agree with the OP FRA

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah, just contract both of them, or else we gonna back and forth with tierring system

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I feel like something is fundamentally broken with the way yall view tiering system when you place 0 value on the page explaining how it works. If the page is wrong, change it. If it isn't wrong, explain why DMC still qualifies. But don't do this "oh but Ultima or DT said-" crap every time the wiki doesn't give you exactly what you want.

 

[ÆONS]

...

I don't think the scenario you're describing is equivalent to what I'm talking about. The part of the FAQ you're citing really only applies to a character's power in relation to others whose power is only stated or expressed as countable infinity. Multiplying countable infinite power with any finite or even (countably) infinite variable would always lead to the same result simply because you can't add, divide, multiply, or subtract from infinity. It doesn't really apply the same way in regards to size where principles regarding how a character who is bigger than a countably infinite large 4-D space are often different from the scenario you and I just described.

Time, which is basically the 4-D axis, is always infinite regardless of whether we're talking about a Low 2-C structure or 2-A structure with the only difference between the two tiers being really only a matter of range, how far across an individual can physically destroy universes along a 5-D axis that they all exist upon. This is why we can't quantify the difference in power between a Low 2-C and 2-C character. Since time is infinite, the only way to reach Low 1-C is to possess qualitative superiority over it as stated in the FAQ:

Qualitative superiority, also sometimes called being qualitatively greater, is a term colloquially used to mean that something is superior to an extend that it justifies being on a higher tier of infinity in terms of our Tiering System than the thing they are superior to. That means a character qualitatively superior to the usual spacetime continuum would, for example, be Low Complex Multiverse level (Tier Low 1-C) at the level represented by the R^5. Someone qualitatively superior to that would have the same tier, but on the higher level of infinity represented by the R^6 and someone qualitatively superior to that level would be baseline Complex Multiverse level (Tier 1-C).
In the same vein a space being qualitatively superior to another space, means that destroying that space would land you on a higher level of infinity in the Tiering System than destroying the space it is superior to.
In rough terms it means as much as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size".
. . .

Of course, the same levels of superiority can also be reached via sufficiently explicit quantitative statements, such as when cardinalities above countably infinite get involved in a manner that implies a corresponding difference in power/size.

As the idea of "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size" implies, most statements of superiority wouldn't suffice to reach qualitative superiority, even if applied to already being infinitely stronger than the baselines for the level. E.g. being twice, a hundred or even infinite times stronger than a Multiverse level+ character, who already has infinite multiversal strength, would still not be enough to reach qualitative superiority over a multiverse.

Of course, since Fuji had already previously posted a statement from this FAQ section, I decided to exclude it. The main things I want to point to are the bolded parts. Basically, having qualitative superiority over lower dimensions means being on a higher level of infinity in relation to them, to the point of being greater than countably infinite times greater in power or, as I'm discussing, size. This can already be achieved through a character creating uncountably infinite universes or timelines since uncountable infinity is, obviously, of a higher quality of infinity in relation to countable infinity. It's the only thing that could be bigger than it in such a situation. Similar logic can also be applied to a structure (or even individual) who is bigger than a Low 2-C structure. Since said structure is by default countably infinite, by being larger or bigger than it would quite literally be "more than countably infinite times greater in size" in relation to it. It may as well be uncountably infinite since it would be the only thing larger than it.

This is not to say, for instance, that trying to infinitely expand an already infinite 4-D structure would yield the same result, it wouldn't since expanding something infinite wouldn't make it more infinite. To be bigger than that infinity, something would need to have a higher quality of infinity like being higher-dimensional or be uncountably infinitely large.

Anyways, that's my rationale for what I've been talking about. Like I said, it's best to contact staff to check it all out since verses besides DMC apparently still use it. My position remains neutral.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

...Except the two other quotes I posted say that qualitative superiority in SIZE is required, and that such superiority can only be achieved via a "more than countably infinite difference". If being larger than low 2-C was good enough, that statement wouldn't make any fucking sense. There is direct confirmation that an infinite size difference isn't good enough - You can't keep trying to dodge that.

“Characters or objects that can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal.”

“In the same vein a space being qualitatively superior to another space, means that destroying that space would land you on a higher level of infinity in the Tiering Systemthan destroying the space it is superior to. In rough terms it means as much as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size".

 

[ÆONS]

...Except the two other quotes I posted say that qualitative superiority in SIZE is required, and that such superiority can only be achieved via a "more than countably infinite difference". If being larger than low 2-C was good enough, that statement wouldn't make any fucking sense. There is direct confirmation that an infinite size difference isn't good enough - You can't keep trying to dodge that.

“Characters or objects that can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal.”

“In the same vein a space being qualitatively superior to another space, means that destroying that space would land you on a higher level of infinity in the Tiering System than destroying the space it is superior to. In rough terms it means as much as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size".

I honestly do not see anything in the statements you posted contradict anything I'm talking about. Uncountable infinity is inherently a quality of infinity greater than that of countable infinity simply because the difference between the two is in itself greater than a countable infinite difference. If it wasn't the case then simply adding or multiplying countable infinities to it would allow it to reach uncountable infinity, but that's impossible because of how much greater the latter is. To say otherwise wouldn't make any sense at all. That's why there's a distinction between High 1-B and Low 1-A, for instance. If the difference between there being countably vs uncountably infinite higher-dimensions, as is often the case among the two, wasn't so significant, then those tiers wouldn't exist separately.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I honestly do not see anything in the statements you posted contradict anything I'm talking about. Uncountable infinity is inherently a quality of infinity greater than that of countable infinity simply because the difference between the two is in itself greater than a countable infinite difference. If it wasn't the case then simply adding or multiplying countable infinities to it would allow it to reach uncountable infinity, but that's impossible because of how much greater the latter is. To take otherwise wouldn't make any sense at all. That's why there's a distinction between High 1-B and Low 1-A, for instance. If the difference between there being countably vs uncountably infinite higher-dimensions wasn't so significant, then those tiers wouldn't exist separately.

...Yes, I know that. So what proves that the difference between the HW and DW is uncountably infinite and not countably infinite?

You cant fall back on "well being larger than low 2-C is low 1-C by default", because if that were true, the FAQ wouldn't need to say that countably infinite size differences aren't enough, but more than countably infinite size differences qualify. It'd just say that any size difference counts, but it doesn't, and DT has backed this up on-site.

 

[ÆONS]

...Yes, I know that. So what proves that the difference between the HW and DW is uncountably infinite and not countably infinite?

You cant fall back on "well being larger than low 2-C is low 1-C by default", because if that were true, the FAQ wouldn't need to say that countably infinite size differences aren't enough, but more than countably infinite size differences qualify. It'd just say that any size difference counts, but it doesn't, and DT has backed this up on-site.

My arguments are simply in regards to the situation between Low 2-C and Low 1-C in general, not specifically to DMC itself.

I've already stated twice that I am taking a neutral position, at least for now, in order to hear more on what you and the others have to say since only two people have made responses so far. That's all.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree with op

 

[Bobsican]

I also agree with the OP

 

[Phsccarvalho]

You know, I don't understand almost anything about level 1, but doesn't that quote explicitly say that being infinitely larger than a low 2-C structure wouldn't be enough?

Which in this case would be the Demon World, infinitely larger than a Low 2-C structure.

“The reason it is called qualitative superiority is that, instead of quantitative terms such as being 2 times, 100 times or even infinite times more powerful or greater, this type of superiority is typically justified by the nature of the superiority. The most standard case is dimensionality, where a difference in the quality that is dimensionality, implies the necessary quantitative difference. Another typical example is reality-fiction differences. Those are cases like viewing a plane of reality as mere fiction, like for example writing on a sheet of paper or a dream. They are assumed to imply superiority of a similar scale.”

“As the idea of "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size" implies, most statements of superiority wouldn't suffice to reach qualitative superiority, even if applied to already being infinitely stronger than the baselines for the level. E.g. being twice, a hundred or even infinite times stronger than a Multiverse level+ character, who already has infinite multiversal strength, would still not be enough to reach qualitative superiority over a multiverse.”

-
-
-
I always thought of one thing.

A Low 2-C structure is like a ray of light in the infinite demonic world.

But what if theoretically an infinite multiverse existed and each human world was a ray of light. It would end up being an infinite amount of rays of light, which would cover the entire Infinite Demon World. But at the same time, the demonic world would still be encompassing it all.

And spaces that encompass an infinite multiverse like Ben 10 and Bayonet are not considered 5D spaces?
-
-
-
I know "Different works, different contexts", but I'm not using any of that as an argument for anything.

So I don't have much knowledge of tier 1, so I have doubts about these things and its functionality, so these are just some personal doubts of mine that I would appreciate if someone explained it to me.

If this isn't appropriate for this crt, I can delete that part, sorry for any inconvenience, it's not my intention.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Agree with the op. Low 1-C DMC seems wrong and based of some really weird high-end interpretations of certain stuff. No idea why it has even been accepted for so long with no reason really. Some people just decided about how the mirrow world is considered and everyone just accepted it despite the possible scenarios Fuji has listed.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

And then we wrap right back around to most statements of superiority, even those referring to infinite gaps above infinity, are simply not enough to qualify.

I might note that the clauses you quote for this thread aren't really applicable to the case at hand. As it stands, we make a distinction between strength and sheer size, with regards to these tiers. For instance, being "twice as large as an infinite multiverse" is something we don't consider to be a thing, because two infinite multiverses is the same as a single infinite multiverse. And in fact even infinitely-many infinite multiverses is the same thing as a single infinite multiverse. Yet "twice as strong as a 2-A character" is indeed a thing, as is "Infinitely stronger than a 2-A character."

Granted, I did write something for the Higher-Dimensional Existence page, recently, namely:

As far as being larger than infinitely-sized objects or spaces goes, one must analyze the context of the feat in question to determine if it truly qualifies for Higher-Dimensional Existence. In terms of volume (Or, more generally, measure), the only way to be truly bigger than an object of infinite size is to have a non-zero size in a space of more dimensions than the object in question. However, portrayals of more expansive realms containing infinitely large things within themselves are not necessarily indicative of such.

A good construction to exemplify this is the topological space known as the long line. In essence, it is a space obtained by taking an uncountably infinite number of line segments and “gluing” them together end-to-end, and so it is in some sense much longer than the real line, which is comprised of only a countably infinite number of such line segments. Nevertheless, they are both 1-dimensional spaces.

The long line itself can also be generalized into 2-dimensional and 3-dimensional analogues, and as such the same principle holds for higher dimensions as well.

So the Demon World may well fall under a similar case, being more an extension of the axes present in the Human World than something that requires a whole new axis. I dunno Devil May Cry, though, so, yeah.