Fuji NEVER Cry [DMC Tier 1 Downgrades Yet Again]

[Serlock_Holmes]

Ultima I hope to one day understand what you are talking about.

Also wasn't the HW part of the DW initially? How does it make sense for one to be above the other?

I also have some problems with the endless darkness and ray of light statement but I will keep that to myself for now.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I might note that the clauses you quote for this thread aren't really applicable to the case at hand. As it stands, we make a distinction between strength and sheer size, with regards to these tiers. For instance, being "twice as large as an infinite multiverse" is something we don't consider to be a thing, because two infinite multiverses is the same as a single infinite multiverse. And in fact even infinitely-many infinite multiverses is the same thing as a single infinite multiverse. Yet "twice as strong as a 2-A character" is indeed a thing, as is "Infinitely stronger than a 2-A character."

One person suggested that even being bigger than a tier 2 structure warrants Low 1-C. They can explain it better than I can, but is that true?

So the Demon World may well fall under a similar case, being more an extension of the axes present in the Human World than something that requires a whole new axis. I dunno Devil May Cry, though, so, yeah.

One of the key statements refers to the human world as a single ray of light in the infinite darkness of the demon world. It's also known that the human world used to be part of the demon world. Tony can describe this in more detail than I can, and he did, above.

 

[TokiNoOuja]

Ultima I hope to one day understand what you are talking about.

Also wasn't the HW part of the DW initially? How does it make sense for one to be above the other?

I also have some problems with the endless darkness and ray of light statement but I will keep that to myself for now.

Because it always does?i mean DW at the very beginning iirc are born from Chaos and refered as Infinite Darkness and then suddenly a smoll light poped out of nowhere inside that endless darkness which turned to be the human world. Just imagine a big round bread and then someone put a drop of sause on it.

Pretty much DW always portrayed as something superior compared to Human World thoughout the franchise for ages

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Because it always does?i mean DW at the very beginning iirc are born from Chaos and refered as Infinite Darkness and then suddenly a smoll light poped out of nowhere inside that endless darkness which turned to be the human world. Just imagine a big round bread and then someone put a drop of sause on it.

Pretty much DW always portrayed as something superior compared to Human World thoughout the franchise for ages

It's portrayed as stronger because demons fodderize humans. No idea where that take on demons being higher dimensional beings comes from. Is Superman a higher dimensional being as well? Like at best it's either both the DW and the HW being infinite or DW is and HW is not due to them being the same. Humans were literally born on another part of the DW as far as I can tell.

Here they are both said to be in the same dimensions and created together: https://cdn-2.mangaowl.to/media/content/9eb81cd5-d039-47ea-9bee-a9f9a0f6290f/92492/5.jpg

Here humans are said to be weak which is true but is even less of a support for some claimed hde for demons: https://cdn-2.mangaowl.to/media/content/9eb81cd5-d039-47ea-9bee-a9f9a0f6290f/92492/6.jpg

Here Sparda is said to wield his sword for light and that darkness lost it's power without a king further signifying that they aren't even that much referring to size but rather the nature of Demons and Humans meaning light refers to good and darkness to evil: https://cdn-2.mangaowl.to/media/content/9eb81cd5-d039-47ea-9bee-a9f9a0f6290f/92492/7.jpg

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I'm pretty sure that Ultima stated multiple times at least last year that being larger than any Tier 2 structure, whether Low 2-C or 2-A would get you Low 1-C simply because you can't be larger than a countably infinite large 4-D structure while still remaining 4-D yourself.

Ultima_Reality

vsbattles.com

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Ultima_Reality

vsbattles.com

What's your stance on the topic?

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

One person suggested that even being bigger than a tier 2 structure warrants Low 1-C. They can explain it better than I can, but is that true?

Not ultima, but you can only fit a countably infinite amount of points on an axis. If you're uncountably bigger that should count as l1-c. He can feel free to correct me if im somehow mistaken

 

[ÆONS]

Ultima_Reality

vsbattles.com

Thank you.

 

[KLOL506]

@Palito266

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

So the Demon World may well fall under a similar case, being more an extension of the axes present in the Human World than something that requires a whole new axis. I dunno Devil May Cry, though, so, yeah.

Thanks for the elaboration, though two of the quotes from the FAQ do explicitly mention size. I also wasn't aware of the HDE standard, so thank you for that. Looking at the "ray of light" scan in the OP, do you think it'd qualify, or are you staying neutral?

 

[ÆONS]

You already tried that last time and failed terribly so if I were you I wouldn't try again because I will give you the same answer

By the way, it seems like this downgrade thread seems to continue off of this one at least in part. Since there are details about the OP's argument and Tony's counterargument that are still unclear to me in regards to the ray of light thing, I'll do my best to read through all of this to get the missing information I need. This will take time, though.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

By the way, it seems like this downgrade thread seems to continue off of this one at least in part. Since there are details about the OP's argument and Tony's counterargument that are still unclear to me in regards to the ray of light thing, I'll do my best to read through all of this to get the missing information I need. This will take time, though.

The arguments in that prior thread are wholly unrelated to what I'm proposing now. Furthermore, this was back when PoC was still being used; However, that is no longer the case, so the context is a lot different now.

 

[ÆONS]

The arguments in that prior thread are wholly unrelated to what I'm proposing now. Furthermore, this was back when PoC was still being used; However, that is no longer the case, so the context is a lot different now.

Oh, okay.

 

[Palito266]

Also wasn't the HW part of the DW initially? How does it make sense for one to be above the other?

A Higher Dimension can have a Lower Dimension inside of it.
Anyway, i'm going to be (FOR THE TIME BEING) agreeing on the OP here since now i actually have time to read it and stuff, i've never actually agreed on Solid L1-C for DW unless it was with Peak of Combat (which directly calls it a higher dimension) but since that's a goner, then it just can't happen.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

A Higher Dimension can have a Lower Dimension inside of it.
Anyway, i'm going to be (FOR THE TIME BEING) agreeing on the OP here since now i actually have time to read it and stuff, i've never actually agreed on Solid L1-C for DW unless it was with Peak of Combat (which directly calls it a higher dimension) but since that's a goner, then it just can't happen.

But they weren't different dimensions. They were literally one and the same like the king of hell said in my scan. Just that demons are Saiyans and the humans are...well humans.

 

[Palito266]

But they weren't different dimensions. They were literally one and the same like the king of hell said in my scan. Just that demons are Saiyans and the humans are...well humans.

If you take an infinitesimal 0-D Point off from a 1-D Line, is the 1-D Line not 1-D anymore?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

If you take an infinitesimal 0-D Point off from a 1-D Line, is the 1-D Line not 1-D anymore?

Are you suggesting that somehow the HW would lack any dimensionality the DW has? That's a pretty big claim.

 

[Palito266]

Are you suggesting that somehow the HW would lack any dimensionality the DW has? That's a pretty big claim.

I'm not suggesting anything. I already said i agreed to Fuji's claims, i was just answering your question on why it would make sense for the HW having a lower dimensionality in regards to the DW (tho given what Fuji said this isn't the case)
Besides that, being infinitely larger than the HW wouldn't grant the DW another tier like more high into 2-C or 2-A?

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I'm not suggesting anything. I already said i agreed to Fuji's claims, i was just answering your question on why it would make sense for the HW having a lower dimensionality in regards to the DW (tho given what Fuji said this isn't the case)
Besides that, being infinitely larger than the HW wouldn't grant the DW another tier like more high into 2-C or 2-A?

That I don't exactly know. Exactly what degree destroying the DW would reach. It should still be 2-C though. Low 1-C doesn't make sense at least for me.

 

[Tanin_iver]

Oh yeah, I almost forgot.

@Tanin_iver

Pardon my delay, I was catching up on some reading.
Oh, I see, another Demon King has resurrected and you need my help eh?

I would rather not be here.

We all agree, you shouldn't be here.

Spoiler: The Basis of the CRT

Well before we can even begin, I think we should all know how this CRT came to be.

Has anyone ever proven that "infinitely larger" in this context actually refers to R > F? Because there's no reason to assume that over the Demon World just... having infinitely more space.

Sorry, meant qualitative superiority.

So, the OP here isn't aware of how our tiering system works or even acquainted with what is qualitative superiority and what are the different types of qualitative superiority accepted within the wiki. Honestly, it should have been a Q&A thread instead of downgrade CRT.
Now, to clear OP's misconceptions, the tiering system is primarily based on the concept of size.

Qualitative superiority, also sometimes called being qualitatively greater, is a term colloquially used to mean that something is superior to an extend that it justifies being on a higher tier of infinity in terms of our Tiering System than the thing they are superior to.

A space being qualitatively superior to another space, means that destroying that space would land you on a higher level of infinity in the Tiering System than destroying the space it is superior to. In rough terms it means as much as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size".

The reason it is called qualitative superiority is that, instead of quantitative terms such as being 2 times, 100 times or even infinite times more powerful or greater, this type of superiority is typically justified by the nature of the superiority. The most standard case is dimensionality, where a difference in the quality that is dimensionality, implies the necessary quantitative difference. Another typical example is reality-fiction differences. Those are cases like viewing a plane of reality as mere fiction, like for example writing on a sheet of paper or a dream. They are assumed to imply superiority of a similar scale.
Of course, the same levels of superiority can also be reached via sufficiently explicit quantitative statements, such as when cardinalities above countably infinite get involved in a manner that implies a corresponding difference in power/size.

In short, Qualitative Superiority is used to denote the superiority of a structure or character such that it qualifies for a higher level/cardinal of infinity in our tiering system. There are various types of Qualitative Superiority accepted in our wiki, such as Higher Spatial dimensions, R>F transcendence, Ontological Superiority, viewing a plane of reality like a dream, or even uncountably infinite difference in size/power. They are all equalized to +1 dimension in our tiering system unless stated otherwise.

But I do really want to see tier 1 DMC Biden Blasted from existence ngl

Like I could just take 3 statements from all of 2hu and get the entire damn verse to 6D with that logic, it's just abysmal wank at that point.

OP created this thread primarily out of spite rather than good faith or concern with the accuracy of ratings, from the looks of it.
I would rather suggest OP to make CRTs on Tohou to upgrade them if this was the case, instead of wasting time creating downgrade threads out of spite. It will be a more productive use of OP's time and will save our collective time too.

We don't consider manga adaptations of things like games primary canon by default

I am not sure if you are trying to imply this, but I am still clarifying that the Manga is not an adaptation of the game, the manga acts as a prequel to the game. It is considered canon as clarfied by the devs.

Spoiler: Higher-Dimensional Demons

Higher-Dimensional Demons?!?!?!

I’ve occasionally seen these scans crop up as arguments for the DW having some sort of superiority. These are pretty easy to tackle one by one:

-This is referring to the war between humans and demons before Sparda showed up and cleaned house, the obvious implication being that humans were getting massacred because they cannot physically compare to demons. Doesn’t have much of anything to do with dimensions.

-This was originally claimed to be Mundus creating a world of “similar proportions” to the DW, which uh… no??? It’s said to be infinitely expanding, but no scan compares it to the DW in any way - It’s its own thing entirely. Even if the comparison were valid, being “beyond human comprehension” doesn’t mean a whole lot; Not only are there a lot of things humans can’t comprehend that aren’t higher dimensions, but demons and the DW both already induce madness by existing, which fits the bill for “beyond comprehension” just fine.

-This is the “scan” for the third claim, that being that the DW can affect large parts of the HW just by merging a small part of itself with it. Aside from the obvious issue of “why the ***** are you linking an entire CRT as your evidence instead of just a regular scan”, this feat, again has nothing to do with dimensional superiority. Not relevant in the slightest.

-There’s this scan which… aside from the fact that it’s just kinda hard to read, referring to a human as an “insignificant insect” is just tropey villain talk. It’s no indication of dimensional superiority, or any real superiority at all since words like this are obviously just bragging.

-Finally there’s the statement of it being like one is looking at infinity compared to a demon. Again, as we’re dealing with regular humans here, it’s natural to assume that this is in reference to the very clear difference in power between humans and demons. A Normal Guy would, in fact, feel pretty insignificant next to a literal demon from hell that brings despair in their wake and has enough power to tear the universe apart, regardless of higher-dimensional nonsense.

So yeah, none of these statements are particularly relevant, but they’ve been used as supporting evidence before so I wanted to tackle them anyways.

This entire section is completely irrelevant to the current justifications of Tier 1 ratings, so I will save everyone's time and not bother with it. Everyone can skip ahead.

Spoiler: Ray of Light

Then you’d be using a one-off, possibly flowery statement in secondary canon in order to scale an entire verse to higher-dimensional levels of power.

I am sure this was already tackled in the previous downgrade thread and also by Tony and Vietthai here, so I will not bother with this.

But ignoring that, at least this single statement still fits the low 1-C criteria, right? Uh…

“Characters or objects that can universally affect, create and/or destroy spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.)

Uhh yes it does, the Human World is the Low 2-C structure here, and the Demon World is infinitely bigger than the Human World and trivializes it as an infinitesimal structure, like a ray of light compared to endless darkness. So, the Demon World would qualify for a higher level of infinity and hence Low 1-C.

This is fine. If this was the only paragraph describing low 1-C, DMC would qualify if you buy the ray of light thing. But the requirements for tier 1 don’t stop there:

“Characters or objects that can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal.”

So, it hammers the fact that levels of infinity greater than standard universal model is enough for Low 1-C as we can see above. You seem to have conveniently ignored this part.

That’s where we run into qualitative superiority, which has a few interesting caveats to it:
Right off the bat, it’s made clear that being countably infinitely greater than a low 2-C space is not enough; Rather, you need to go one step beyond that. The DW has no statements or implications that’d place it above countable infinity in terms of its size difference when compared to the HW.
Here, it’s yet again stated that an infinite difference is not enough to qualify for qualitative superiority; Instead, the difference is reliant on things such as R > F difference (not relevant here), and a difference in dimensionality. Now the obvious issue is that the ray of light statement doesn’t really go into too much detail, which makes it impossible for us to go “yeah sure it’s talking about higher dimensions”.
And then we wrap right back around to most statements of superiority, even those referring to infinite gaps above infinity, are simply not enough to qualify.

As you can plainly see, just being vaguely infinitely greater than a low 2-C space is not in fact sufficient to reach low 1-C levels of power. We have blatant rules in place to prevent a vague “infinitely larger than” statement from upgrading an entire verse to low 1-C. Take the ray of light statement as you will, it’s way too vague to assume it’s referring to dimensionality and not just size (or literally any other metric of measurement that people tend to think of before higher dimensions). The nature of this superiority is simply not elaborated on in any other DMC content; Taking it as qualitative superiority by default is a massive reach, especially since it’s just one statement.

Ultima already called you out on this and I would also like to point out the flaws in your arguments by posting the whole of the FAQ section for extra context.

Qualitative superiority, also sometimes called being qualitatively greater, is a term colloquially used to mean that something is superior to an extend that it justifies being on a higher tier of infinity in terms of our Tiering System than the thing they are superior to. That means a character qualitatively superior to the usual spacetime continuum would, for example, be Low Complex Multiverse level (Tier Low 1-C) at the level represented by the R^5. Someone qualitatively superior to that would have the same tier, but on the higher level of infinity represented by the R^6 and someone qualitatively superior to that level would be baseline Complex Multiverse level (Tier 1-C).
In the same vein a space being qualitatively superior to another space, means that destroying that space would land you on a higher level of infinity in the Tiering System than destroying the space it is superior to.
In rough terms it means as much as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size".

The reason it is called qualitative superiority is that, instead of quantitative terms such as being 2 times, 100 times or even infinite times more powerful or greater, this type of superiority is typically justified by the nature of the superiority. The most standard case is dimensionality, where a difference in the quality that is dimensionality, implies the necessary quantitative difference. Another typical example is reality-fiction differences. Those are cases like viewing a plane of reality as mere fiction, like for example writing on a sheet of paper or a dream. They are assumed to imply superiority of a similar scale.
Of course, the same levels of superiority can also be reached via sufficiently explicit quantitative statements, such as when cardinalities above countably infinite get involved in a manner that implies a corresponding difference in power/size.

As the idea of "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size" implies, most statements of superiority wouldn't suffice to reach qualitative superiority, even if applied to already being infinitely stronger than the baselines for the level. E.g. being twice, a hundred or even infinite times stronger than a Multiverse level+ character, who already has infinite multiversal strength, would still not be enough to reach qualitative superiority over a multiverse.

I have already explained what is qualitative superiority in the previous sections, and I will reiterate this again, that the tiering system is primarily based on size. The qualitative difference implies the necessary quantitative difference. And with explicit quantitative statements, such as when a level of infinity is trivialized to being an infinitesimal by another level of reality, the reality corresponds to a higher level of infinity or size. This is basically what Low 2-C being infinitesimal to Low 1-C is. This is exactly the difference between the Human World and the Demon World. So it qualifies for current Low 1-C standards.

Of course, what about the other two standards I see DMC supporters use to defend tier 1? Well, they have their own reasons for being inapplicable here:

Given that the mirror world can either be the same space-time as the DW, or not part of the DW at all, it wouldn’t be “embedded” in anything.

“One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc.”

Well the whole of HW was embedded in DW as an infinitesimal subset before they were split. Low 2-C HW embedded in Low 1-C DW. So your point being?

So… the ray of light meets the standards for qualitative superiority on its own, the mirror world doesn’t even need to be factored into this argument at all, and PoC is in Beta.
So what does that leave us with? That’s right, Fuji crying.

Spoiler: The Mirror World

I will fill this up later with an edit, if I feel like it. It isn't even needed currently, just works as supporting evidence.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well before we can even begin, I think we should all know how this CRT came to be.

So, the OP here isn't aware of how our tiering system works or even acquainted with what is qualitative superiority and what are the different types of qualitative superiority accepted within the wiki. Honestly, it should have been a Q&A thread instead of downgrade CRT.

"As you can see, the OP made a typo in a Q&A thread therefore they do not know what they're talking about". Give me one reason why I should bother responding if this is what you lead with.

 

[Tanin_iver]

Granted, I did write something for the Higher-Dimensional Existence page, recently, namely:

Not a fan of this current standard I must say, primarily for two reasons:

1. We don't use Long Line topology in the wiki and our tiering system currently, and introducing this concept out of nowhere will it not make HDE a bit inconsistent with higher tiers as both have different qualifiers with regards to levels of infinity.
2. Correct me if I am wrong but will this also not cause conflicts in the current system, like Alep-1 number of universes will no longer be Low 1-C due to the long line being capable of holding such a quantity of universes and just be still Low 2-C and the timeline being considered as uncountable infinite snapshots of 3D volumes will not qualify for Low 2-C and still be 3D?

So the Demon World may well fall under a similar case, being more an extension of the axes present in the Human World than something that requires a whole new axis.

Well the Demon World is not defined as a ray of light that is longer than another ray of light that is the human world but as endless darkness compared to it. Both are objectively defined as different qualities with being darkness and light, and the Demon world can embed other Low 2-C structures such as the Mirror world as infinitesimal structures within itself beyond just the HW. The the darkness completely dwarfs and is considered endless compared to the ray of light.
So, regardless of the new standard the DW is still a sufficient higher level of infinity that is necessary to trivialize the HW so nothing should change logically speaking. It will just compensate by being even bigger according to our standards IMO.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Actually this is just the same misunderstandings yet again, god

-The higher-dimensional demons were used as arguments in prior threads on this topic. I wanted to debunk them in the OP. It's that simple.
-This is not a spite thread; I want to see low 1-C nuked because it is wrong. It's not that deep.
-I'd like to see the statements about the manga's canonicity if you happen to have them.
-You do not understand the tiering system, simple as. It clearly says that you need to have a more than countably infinite size difference in order to get low 1-C. You have proven a countably infinite size difference, true. But where's the evidence that the size difference is even greater than that? Again, to be 100% clear about this, AN INFINITE SIZE DIFFERENCE ALONE IS NOT ENOUGH TO GET LOW 1-C.
-Quoting Ultima is a horrible idea when he gave me yet another statement to use that proves low 1-C wrong:

As far as being larger than infinitely-sized objects or spaces goes, one must analyze the context of the feat in question to determine if it truly qualifies for Higher-Dimensional Existence. In terms of volume (Or, more generally, measure), the only way to be truly bigger than an object of infinite size is to have a non-zero size in a space of more dimensions than the object in question. However, portrayals of more expansive realms containing infinitely large things within themselves are not necessarily indicative of such.

A good construction to exemplify this is the topological space known as the long line. In essence, it is a space obtained by taking an uncountably infinite number of line segments and “gluing” them together end-to-end, and so it is in some sense much longer than the real line, which is comprised of only a countably infinite number of such line segments. Nevertheless, they are both 1-dimensional spaces.

The long line itself can also be generalized into 2-dimensional and 3-dimensional analogues, and as such the same principle holds for higher dimensions as well.

As you can see, merely containing infinity or being larger than it (even infinitely larger!) is not enough to be considered higher-dimensional.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well the Demon World is not defined as a ray of light that is longer than another ray of light that is the human world but as endless darkness compared to it. Both are objectively defined as different qualities with being darkness and light, and the Demon world can embed other Low 2-C structures such as the Mirror world as infinitesimal structures within itself beyond just the HW. The the darkness completely dwarfs and is considered endless compared to the ray of light.
So, regardless of the new standard the DW is still a sufficient higher level of infinity that is necessary to trivialize the HW so nothing should change logically speaking. It will just compensate by being even bigger according to our standards IMO.

1. You have not even bothered to defend the mirror world thing, and it being low 2-C at all was rejected. If there are other possible low 2-C structures, then elaborate.
2. The long line analogy works for all dimensions, not just 1 dimensional lines.
3. This still does not solve the issue of countably infinite vs uncountably infinite. You've proven the former, now prove the latter.

 

[Georredannea15]

Not a fan of this current standard I must say, primarily for two reasons:

1. We don't use Long Line topology in the wiki and our tiering system currently, and introducing this concept out of nowhere will it not make HDE a bit inconsistent with higher tiers as both have different qualifiers with regards to levels of infinity.
2. Correct me if I am wrong but will this also not cause conflicts in the current system, like Alep-1 number of universes will no longer be Low 1-C due to the long line being capable of holding such a quantity of universes and just be still Low 2-C and the timeline being considered as uncountable infinite snapshots of 3D volumes will not qualify for Low 2-C and still be 3D?

I mean... Now I can say that the current standards don't take things like "size" and "large" very seriously, and now more attention is paid to volume and ontological transcendence.

So yes, even if the straight line is infinitely large, it does not provide an extra axis because it grows linearly in one axis. Or something like that

 

[Tanin_iver]

You do not understand the tiering system, simple as. It clearly says that you need to have a more than countably infinite size difference in order to get low 1-C. You have proven a countably infinite size difference, true. But where's the evidence that the size difference is even greater than that? Again, to be 100% clear about this, AN INFINITE SIZE DIFFERENCE ALONE IS NOT ENOUGH TO GET LOW 1-C.

You failed to understand that 4D to 5D is an uncountable infinite difference. The HW is Low 2-C which is an infinite 4D structure. And the next jump that is infinitely larger and can trivialize the Low 2-C as an infinitesimal structure is Low 1-C or 5D. Hence, why the DW is Low 1-C.
The next jump higher than infinite 4D is 5D, get it now? Get how the uncountable infinite difference came from.
This exact same thing has gone over your head yet again. I hope u mange to understand this time.

This is not a spite thread; I want to see low 1-C nuked because it is wrong. It's not that deep.

Based on a false premise that it must not be Low 1-C and must be nuked. Sounds like spite to me. Instead of u know just querying if this is sufficient evidence outright.

As you can see, merely containing infinity or being larger than it (even infinitely larger!) is not enough to be considered higher-dimensional.

As you could see above, I am contending with his position. Since, it is not consistent with our current tiering system and also isn't dealing with the same, but only related topic, which is HDE.

 

[Palito266]

-I'd like to see the statements about the manga's canonicity if you happen to have them.

I got you.
The manga happens 1 year before DMC 3, this is because as we see in the game, Dante clearly states that they haven't seen each other ever since almost a year, which happens in the manga. There's also the fact that the manga helps us explain Arkham's presence and how Vergil deactivated the previous seals Sparda made to the Temen-Ni-Gru tower, and it also shares the same intro where Vergil is in the library and Arkham convinces him to join him. (It's important to note that Vergil's campaign, the one that comes with the special edition was released back in 2006 whilst the manga was released in 2005)

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I got you.
The manga happens 1 year before DMC 3, this is because as we see in the game, Dante clearly states that they haven't seen each other ever since almost a year, which happens in the manga. There's also the fact that the manga helps us explain Arkham's presence and how Vergil deactivated the previous seals Sparda made to the Temen-Ni-Gru tower, and it also shares the same intro where Vergil is in the library and Arkham convinces him to join him. (It's important to note that Vergil's campaign, the one that comes with the special edition was released back in 2006 whilst the manga was released in 2005)

That works for me, thanks.

You failed to understand that 4D to 5D is an uncountable infinite difference. The HW is Low 2-C which is an infinite 4D structure. And the next jump that is infinitely larger and can trivialize the Low 2-C as an infinitesimal structure is Low 1-C or 5D. Hence, why the DW is Low 1-C.

Dude. Please. You have proven a countably infinite difference. That is not good enough. What do you think this part of the FAQ means?

"In the same vein a space being qualitatively superior to another space, means that destroying that space would land you on a higher level of infinity in the Tiering System than destroying the space it is superior to. In rough terms it means as much as being "more than countably infinite times greater in power or size".

Based on a false premise that it must not be Low 1-C and must be nuked. Sounds like spite to me. Instead of u know just querying if this is sufficient evidence outright.

"I think you are incorrect, therefore this is spite". I'm not exactly in the mood to play games today,, cut the bullshit or I'll push for a threadban. Not every downgrade is spite.

As you could see above, I am contending with his position. Since, it is not consistent with our current tiering system and also isn't dealing with the same, but only related topic, which is HDE.

Those are the standards we're working with, buddy. Don't like them? Change them.

 

[Tanin_iver]

Dude. Please. You have proven a countably infinite difference. That is not good enough. What do you think this part of the FAQ means?

Mathematically prove to me that there is a level of infinity between R^4 and R^5. Unless you can prove this, nothing changes. You just said that being infinitely bigger such that the R^4 is infinitesimal, not just infinitely big is not equal to R^5 but still R^4. So u are suggesting that there are levels of infinities between R^4 and R^5.

Those are the standards we're working with, buddy. Don't like them? Change them.

I think you are the one that needs to change the standards here, those are for HDE not for Tier 1. The standards actually haven't even changed for tier 1, if they do, then I will concede.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Mathematically prove to me that there is a level of infinity between R^4 and R^5. Unless you can prove this, nothing changes. You just said that being infinitely bigger such that the R^4 is infinitesimal, not just infinitely big is not equal to R^5 but still R^4. So u are suggesting that there are levels of infinities between R^4 and R^5.

Take it up with the tiering system and DT, not me. Because you can argue the absurdity of that standard all you want, but it will not change the fact that it is a real standard that you need to abide by.

 

[Tanin_iver]

Take it up with the tiering system and DT, not me. Because you can argue the absurdity of that standard all you want, but it will not change the fact that it is a real standard that you need to abide by.

I am sorry, but u are not comprehending this properly, just being infinitely big is considered countable infinity since it is in a vaccum with no real size comparison to another structure. But, being infinitely bigger than another infinitely big thing say A such that A is infinitesimal is a higher level of infinity, an uncountable infinite difference according to the tiering system. This is exactly what is explained in the FAQ, which u are missing out every time.

So there is nothing wrong in the FAQ or DT's explanations regarding size that I presented in my first post here.
.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I am sorry, but u are not comprehending this properly, just being infinitely big is considered countable infinity since it is in a vaccum with no real size comparison to another structure. But, being infinitely bigger than another infinitely big thing say A such that A is infinitesimal is a higher level of infinity, an uncountable infinite difference according to the tiering system. This is exactly what is explained in the FAQ, which u are missing out every time.

"In rough terms it means as much as being "MORE THAN COUNTABLY INFINITE times greater in power or SIZE".

Also to be clear this is about QS over low 2-C. So yes, for the 50th fvcking time, being countably infinitely larger than low 2-C is not good enough.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Umm again the DW and the HW where one and the same. They were just cut. Nothing more nothing less.

"In rough terms it means as much as being "MORE THAN COUNTABLY INFINITE times greater in power or SIZE".

I believe we should just wait for the staff to weight in.

 

[Tanin_iver]

"In rough terms it means as much as being "MORE THAN COUNTABLY INFINITE times greater in power or SIZE".

Characters or objects that can significantly affect spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces, usually represented in fiction by higher levels or states of existence (Or "levels of infinity", as referred below) which trivialize everything below them into insignificance, normally by perceiving them as akin to fictional constructs or something infinitesimal.”

Characters or objects that can universally affect, create and/or destroy spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model (Low 2-C structures, in plain English.) In terms of "dimensional" scale, this can be equated to 5 and 6-dimensional real coordinate spaces (R ^ 5 to R ^ 6)”

Take it up with the tiering system and DT, not me. Because you can argue the absurdity of that standard all you want, but it will not change the fact that it is a real standard that you need to abide by.

The same applies to you. If you feel that these are contradictory standards than take it up to the staff who made the rules not me or a specific verse.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The same applies to you. If you feel that these are contradictory standards than take it up to the staff who made the rules not me or a specific verse.

Okay I'm gonna have to kindly ask you to stop talking because you're just going in circles now. When those quotes say "something infinitesimal", they're referring to how the thing above them needs QUALITATIVELY SUPERIOR SIZE ("spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces"). QUALITATIVELY SUPERIOR SIZE is defined as "MORE THAN COUNTABLY INFINITE".

If you understand, great. If you don't, then don't reply because I know you'll say the exact same thing you've said 50 times in a row.

 

[KLOL506]

Fujiwara, Tanin, calm the **** down. There's no need to get heated over this.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Let's just wait for other staff. What is the current vote?

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Let's just wait for other staff. What is the current vote?

@Qawsedf234 agrees with the OP for now, DDM is neutral, and idk Ultima's stance (although I'm pretty sure he's neutral). So 1 agree, 0 disagrees, and 2 neutral votes.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

@Qawsedf234 agrees with the OP for now, DDM is neutral, and idk Ultima's stance (although I'm pretty sure he's neutral). So 1 agree, 0 disagrees, and 2 neutral votes.

Ok that's good. @KLOL506 can you tag some staff?

 

[Tanin_iver]

Okay I'm gonna have to kindly ask you to stop talking because you're just going in circles now. When those quotes say "something infinitesimal", they're referring to how the thing above them needs QUALITATIVELY SUPERIOR SIZE ("spaces of qualitatively greater sizes than ordinary universal models and spaces"). QUALITATIVELY SUPERIOR SIZE is defined as "MORE THAN COUNTABLY INFINITE".

Well, I should be the better person and try to ELI5:
How, could you non-mathematically define a more than uncountably infinite sized dimension B over another countably infinite sized dimension say A.

Still, I will give you a hint, if A is infinite in size, and B is just described as infinitely big without any size comparison to A, it will be the same level/cardinal of infinity.
If however B is described as infinitely bigger than A such that A is infinitesimal, B will have to have a higher cardinality not the same cardinality as A. This is a higher level of infinity, hence a larger size, meaning a higher dimension. This is because there is no level of infinity between them other than another higher cardinal. Are you starting to get what I am saying?

You can still try and give your own input regarding this and how you may think this is right or wrong. I am genuinely trying to discuss now and try to reach an understanding.