From Moonrise to Moonset Quarterfinals, Match 3: Nacht vs Link

[Arnoldstone18]

Honestly with the way Link’s starting moves are set up depending on a gamer. It makes the likelihood of a giant being used very slow. Cuz you have to factor in bad players.

I found a rule on Game mechanics that make whatever the players do not canon. Aren’t there cutscenes to judge from?

Maybe starting moves from a cutscene or two or whatever. If that game doesn’t have cutscenes then wtf are we supposed to do given the rules?

 

[Chariot190]

Sigh, likewise Nacht because Link and the shadows are in touching distance, it will only take a fraction of a second to grab and crush him. Though the parahax is instantaneous given the fact that he’s in touching distance with his shadow on the ground

Yeah but he's 3x faster, if they come from the shadow, why can't Link just move his hand to use a mask before they grab hold of his arms? He should be fast enough to do so even if his legs get restrained

I found a rule on Game mechanics that make whatever the players do not canon. Aren’t there cutscenes to judge from?

No. It's a N64 game, it has like, 3 legitimate cutscenes, one at the start before you get to play, one post prologue and end of game cutscenes, most of which is dialogue (there's a few small ones throughout, but it's just talking), thank **** too we all know what happened when Zelda went cutscene heavy, that shit was annoying.
The only thing that's scripted in game within fights is

Giant's Mask is used to kill at least 1 Twinmold (In 3D).
Fierce Deity is used to kill Majora (This isn't even scripted, the only reason we know this is because a huge guide said this is how he killed him, in game you can beat the Tier 4 Mask with funny peashooter).
Link uses the song of time a lot and is required to do so.
And I guess the Inverted song of time against the ayy lmaos, but that isn't required, just highly suggested.

That is it, everything else is player choice for the most part.

Wont Nacht just have to wait? Link won’t last very long in that giant form. The light arrows dispel magic right? Nacht had the mana skin thing to counter his magic being dispelled. The Giant form would work but only temporarily Nacht with the same partial ******* knowledge (I’ll call the OP) can decide to **** off to a far away place and attack through portals or just wait.

The Light Arrows are giga **** you holy magic and light magic (that also induce temporary parahax based on how they effect Ganon, hard to tell how they effect most other things as they usually get vaporized). Though in this case I'm arguing less the magic thing, and the fact literal light >> shadows. Kinda a hard counter imo, what shadows is he gonna manipulate if Link lights up a funny magic light arrow?

Why would The Giant mask not last long? Link can grant himself infinite magic whenever he deems fit. In fact that's usually how most people do that part of the game, get the chateau that grants Infinite Magic, so when Twinmold happens you have infinite magic (This is also changed in 3D, the mask is indefinite and no longer uses magic, it's permanent while equipped).

Link also has cross country teleportation with song of soaring, I don't think teleporting away will help, and if he does and Link, for some reason, can't get to him? Play song of time, reset the fight, but now knowing exactly what to do and just do all the right moves before his foe warps away (It might be obvious, but just to clarify, only Link retains knowledge of the past loops, everything else doesn't, even the likes of Majora doesn't realize he's being looped). Link in giant mask is larger than starting distance btw (he's nearly 11m tall), rewind + giant into a grab is easy enough.

I was referring to Link himself when I said that, not the Triforce. AND HOW STRONG IS THE TRI FORCE? 3-A?? do we have a Lowkey Smurf on our hands . If it’s 6-C Nacht override it. I’m confused about what you said. If the effect of his magic is negated doesn’t that mean his magic is nega-??? That’s a bit of a paradox. He’s using his magic but isn’t? The effects of the paralysis is him continuously using his magic. Right??

Triforce of Courage, not the full thing, which is 3-A. I just don't feel like typing it out every time and thought it was obvious, my bad, but for future reference, this Link only has a single piece, that of courage, the only canon character to have the full thing is SS Link for a total of five seconds, and Downfall Ganondorf (who's amped by it).
Though, it has dispelled Ganon's magic before so that shit is very obviously cracked the hell out. A single piece of the Triforce is just high end of tier 6 (likely High 6-A), but we're talking funny magic hax here not AP.

No, the magic isn't negated, just the effects of it on Link himself. Like he can still use all his magic and they work as intended, but the ToC just negs what's effected onto Link himself. For example, Twilight covers chunks of a country (or continent? idk what TP Hyrule is considered as Hyrule changes between timeframes, in OOT it's a country, in WW it's a continent, in downfall it's a small nation), everything in it becomes a disembodied soul, a monster and so on (Unholy manipulation, corruption, soul manipulation, perception and stuff and more is what I think we qualify twilight as). Link is uneffected and is aware of it due to the ToC protecting him, but that doesn't mean the twilight isnt there or the fact it's effecting every other living thing.

Idk why that isn’t power null. You’re literally negating the function of the magic itself on Link. That happens in black clover too. Infact when this same mana skin was first introduced it protected against the effects of a magical vulcano. Later on it, ironically, it was used to negate other abilities that function similar to mana skin. For examples Elves can protect themselves from magic and it’s effects with their aura, Noelle then used her mana skin to neg that. The elf then layered her shit with a spell to neg Noelle’s mana skin and Noelle straight up negged even that with a higher transformation Nacht and other mages who learned mana skin on Noelle’s level can do the same with Triforce if it’s not some Smurf shit.

I won’t be surprised if TLOZ is a magical verse. I remember my older cousins playing it when I was a kid. Filled with a lot of magical shit.

Maybe the OP meant full knowledge on immortality and dangerous shit and no knowledge on other stuff. Idk I’ll let him know.

Idk if I'd call it power null, it's always treated as "protection".
And that depends, The Triforce has protected against shit way beyond anything Black Clover has, but when talking about hax, we get into potency and then it spirals out of control due to layers and stuff, like yeah sure the ToC can protect against magic that can effect millions and millions of people all at once with a bunch of wacky dangerous passive effects like it was nothing, but wiki standards weird so idk if that's enough. I wouldn't be surprised if Ganon has a **** ton of layers onto some of his shit though, but I never looked into it before so I can't say (ill ask thou), the most I've done in regards to zelda on the wiki is a few calcs and a few ability additions for Majora himself (and acrobatics for Link because he do funny flip).

Though, Giant Mask is just one issue, Couple's Mask is also a potential issue (just make nacht not want to fight anymore).
Beyond what "partial knowledge" entails, knowing what the **** the ToC can actively protect against is another thing, but I straight up can't confirm nor deny its limits at this time. I'll check in with Dust ig.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah but he's 3x faster, if they come from the shadow, why can't Link just move his hand to use a mask before they grab hold of his arms? He should be fast enough to do so even if his legs get restrained

Wont he have to activate the time stuff too tho
Link’s shadow is in point blank range, nacht can send multiple arms simultaneously to all parts of his body. with mana zone Nacht doesn’t even need a shadow (with partial knowledge of this Nacht is bound to use it). One of the perks from Mana Zone is a decent speed amp too. So can Link really activate the time stuff AND move his arm to do literally anything else ALL BEFORE it gets grabbed by MANY shadow arms travelling POINT BLANK ranges FROM ALL DIRECTIONS (with Mana Zone) towards his body??

WTF…

No. It's a N64 game, it has like, 3 legitimate cutscenes, one at the start before you get to play, one post prologue and end of game cutscenes, most of which is dialogue (there's a few small ones throughout, but it's just talking), thank **** too we all know what happened when Zelda went cutscene heavy, that shit was annoying.
The only thing that's scripted in game within fights is

Giant's Mask is used to kill at least 1 Twinmold (In 3D).
Fierce Deity is used to kill Majora (This isn't even scripted, the only reason we know this is because a huge guide said this is how he killed him, in game you can beat the Tier 4 Mask with funny peashooter).
Link uses the song of time a lot and is required to do so.
And I guess the Inverted song of time against the ayy lmaos, but that isn't required, just highly suggested.

That is it, everything else is player choice for the most part.

FFS
There needs to be a general rule on games like this.

The Light Arrows are giga **** you holy magic and light magic (that also induce temporary parahax based on how they effect Ganon, hard to tell how they effect most other things as they usually get vaporized). Though in this case I'm arguing less the magic thing, and the fact literal light >> shadows. Kinda a hard counter imo, what shadows is he gonna manipulate if Link lights up a funny magic light arrow?

There has never been an elemental interaction like that in black clover. But there are elemental weaknesses, just nothing confirmed for shadow and light.

I also don’t want to say shit like “there are always shadows where photons don’t travel to”. I’d rather say that Nacht can straight up summon shadows from thin air with Mana Zone if there are no shadows to work with. I think I already mentioned like 3-4 times that one of Mana Zone perk is for spells to be cast anywhere within the zone.

A woman named Mereoleona, a fire mage, was the first introduced user of Mana Zone. She could destroy elements she’s weak to like water and can burn fire. So yeah we don’t know what will happen in Nacht’s case.

Can’t Nacht’s shadow outrun the arrow’s attack speed.

Triforce of Courage, not the full thing, which is 3-A. I just don't feel like typing it out every time and thought it was obvious, my bad, but for future reference, this Link only has a single piece, that of courage, the only canon character to have the full thing is SS Link for a total of five seconds, and Downfall Ganondorf (who's amped by it).
Though, it has dispelled Ganon's magic before so that shit is very obviously cracked the hell out. A single piece of the Triforce is just high end of tier 6 (likely High 6-A), but we're talking funny magic hax here not AP.

No, the magic isn't negated, just the effects of it on Link himself. Like he can still use all his magic and they work as intended, but the ToC just negs what's effected onto Link himself. For example, Twilight covers chunks of a country (or continent? idk what TP Hyrule is considered as Hyrule changes between timeframes, in OOT it's a country, in WW it's a continent, in downfall it's a small nation), everything in it becomes a disembodied soul, a monster and so on (Unholy manipulation, corruption, soul manipulation, perception and stuff and more is what I think we qualify twilight as). Link is uneffected and is aware of it due to the ToC protecting him, but that doesn't mean the twilight isnt there or the fact it's effecting every other living thing.

So this shit really is 3-A…

Anyway, what you described is literally Mana Skin to the T, it’s just listed as “resistance to [insert effects of magic being negged here]” or "Power Nullification". For example: the elf was still able to use her magic against Noelle, the effects of her magic was ignored thanks to Mana Skin. There was a Vulcano that was exerting magic that burns anyone close to it to ashes, Rookie mages learned how to use Mana Skin to neg the effects of the volcano. Look at ******* Lucifero, his skin can resist practically so many haxes in BC. That’s why I said they were similar before and that’s why I said Mana Skin can be overridden — In Black Clover, the greater the magic power, the greater the capabilities of magic. That’s why there are so many examples of hax layers born from a simple increase in magic power. Nacht never interacted with someone who can neg his stealth mastery on the magic power level, so it was hard to say if his stealth mastery is layered. However, mana skin has layers. Normally mana skin works against greater magic, however it can still be bypass with an even greater magic. This is why some have greater resistances than others.

Although there are some things Mana Skin hasn't been shown to protect against, likewise Triforce. We still don’t know if Triforce can negate paralysis, but we know it might based off it being able to affect “magic” similar to MS. The profile did say evil magic, and we know Nacht isn’t evil so what now? You can’t find anywhere that states it? Ask dust.

Since the Piece of Courage isn’t smurf, I honestly still think Nacht can override it since it’s similar to Mana Skin protection against the effects of harsh magical environments. At the very least just attack him before he gets a chance to use it anyway. Bro there are so many things for Link to do in a single moment. Idek if he can use Triforce while paralyzed because Nacht can do it instantly by just standing there.

Why would The Giant mask not last long? Link can grant himself infinite magic whenever he deems fit. In fact that's usually how most people do that part of the game, get the chateau that grants Infinite Magic, so when Twinmold happens you have infinite magic (This is also changed in 3D, the mask is indefinite and no longer uses magic, it's permanent while equipped).

Link also has cross country teleportation with song of soaring, I don't think teleporting away will help, and if he does and Link, for some reason, can't get to him? Play song of time, reset the fight, but now knowing exactly what to do and just do all the right moves before his foe warps away (It might be obvious, but just to clarify, only Link retains knowledge of the past loops, everything else doesn't, even the likes of Majora doesn't realize he's being looped). Link in giant mask is larger than starting distance btw (he's nearly 11m tall), rewind + giant into a grab is easy enough.

Isn't Chateau optional equipment? Thats probably an item that can be bought or given to you at specific points of the game. Its probably not standard equipment. So Giant mask shouldn't last long (Considering the fact that you still claim its High 6-A, makes it unfair to still be using it as a counter)

Isn't Cross country teleportation like a back to checkpoint type shit or something like Genshin impact that takes the players to any tower? That shouldn't be effective. Looks like a self BFR imo. I wonder if he turns into a giant instantaneously or gradually.

Anyway, I still stand by Nacht being able to end the match at the very beginning. The probability is just too high at the start with 0 cutscenes to go off of, and other continuity showing him always starting with sword swings most of the time.

Idk if I'd call it power null, it's always treated as "protection".
And that depends, The Triforce has protected against shit way beyond anything Black Clover has, but when talking about hax, we get into potency and then it spirals out of control due to layers and stuff, like yeah sure the ToC can protect against magic that can effect millions and millions of people all at once with a bunch of wacky dangerous passive effects like it was nothing, but wiki standards weird so idk if that's enough. I wouldn't be surprised if Ganon has a **** ton of layers onto some of his shit though, but I never looked into it before so I can't say (ill ask thou), the most I've done in regards to zelda on the wiki is a few calcs and a few ability additions for Majora himself (and acrobatics for Link because he do funny flip).

Though, Giant Mask is just one issue, Couple's Mask is also a potential issue (just make nacht not want to fight anymore).
Beyond what "partial knowledge" entails, knowing what the **** the ToC can actively protect against is another thing, but I straight up can't confirm nor deny its limits at this time. I'll check in with Dust ig.

its the only way to describe protection afaik. I literally don't know any other ability that fits.

The Triforce maybe, cuz its ******* 3-A and can grant any wish, but has that piece protected against stuff beyond BC? affecting millions wont really be enough cuz like my volcano example, it can theoretically affect millions of people if its AOE was wide enough or if millions appeared within range.

The same argument for Giant mask would be for the Couple's Mask. **** Link up first before he does anything. I wont be surprised if that mask is ooc. I wonder what he used the mask for ingame.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

So yeah... This is what the OP said about partial knowledge

Well, I haven't read up on either hero just yet, but immortalities, and dangerous abilities is my general ideas. If you need any more clarification:

Partial knowledge - They know the ability exists and what it is capable of.

• Abilities that can instantly incapacitate - These characters know they are in a match and anything that will immediately or quickly make them lose will be known to them.
• Abilities that make the opponent incredibly hard to incapacitate - This can be regeneration, immortality, invulnerability, anything that preserves the life or prolongs the fight will be known.

Chariot, this is one course of action of point blank omnidirectional movement in great numbers at boosted speeds vs two courses of action (grabbing a mask and putting it tf on). I know there is no way Link would be able to do one course of action at equalized combat speeds and reactions under these circumstances because he is up against a speed advantage over point blank ranges.

Once grabbed Link gets mashed from all sides.

Knowing Nacht, with knowledge of all these shit, i won't be surprised if he amped the **** out his Mana Zone for this one attack out of pure desperation.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

 

[Kaio1277999]

Lol

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Bump

Oh so link has to pick up an instrument to play songs. Since time stops the moment he reaches for the instrument and before he even begins playing the instruments (y’know the stuff that actually allows him to manipulate time), then it’s a game mechanic. So Nacht won’t even let him use the instrument. I doubt the player can even play the instrument during certain boss fights.

 

[Chariot190]

Oh so link has to pick up an instrument to play songs. Since time stops the moment he reaches for the instrument and before he even begins playing the instruments (y’know the stuff that actually allows him to manipulate time), then it’s a game mechanic. So Nacht won’t even let him use the instrument. I doubt the player can even play the instrument during certain boss fights.

We're talking about a time manipulating instrument, it's hard to tell if it's actually a mechanic or a feature

 

[Arnoldstone18]

We're talking about a time manipulating instrument, it's hard to tell if it's actually a mechanic or a feature

Can players actually play it in fights?

Oh and I found a gameplay stuff where song of time didn't stop time, so why do we assume the inverted song does? odd. I have a feeling the song of time also stops time at literally any other points of the game play other than the one i watched on YT

 

[Chariot190]

Can players actually play it in fights?

Yeah? You can whip out the ocarina at any point in time? And play any song whenever? The main example of using time manip mid fight tho is against Them.

Oh and I found a gameplay stuff where song of time didn't stop time, so why do we assume the inverted song does?

What are the actual hell are you talking about????
Nobody said the song of time stops time? Nobody says the inverted song of time stops time either????
>odd. I have a feeling the song of time also stops time at literally any other points of the game play other than the one i watched on YT
????????????

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah? You can whip out the ocarina at any point in time? And play any song whenever? The main example of using time manip mid fight tho is against Them.

Game looks fun tho can't lie.. the songs are catchy.

What are the actual hell are you talking about????
Nobody said the song of time stops time? Nobody says the inverted song of time stops time either????
>odd. I have a feeling the song of time also stops time at literally any other points of the game play other than the one i watched on YT
????????????

I MEANT TIME STOPPING WHILE PLAYING IT. I DIDN'T MEAN THE FUNCTION OF THE SONG WAS TO STOP TIME.

 

[Chariot190]

I MEANT TIME STOPPING WHILE PLAYING IT. I DIDN'T MEAN THE FUNCTION OF THE SONG WAS TO STOP TIME

It happens in a few of the clips you sent tho
That wasn't an actual argument btw

I haven't replied to your last point atm btw because Dust made a CRT for light arrows and stuff upgrade, figured get that done first as giant mask is involved.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Oh okay then, I should make a CRT attempting to upgrade Nacht's LS

This match ends in a few days btw.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Oh okay then, I should make a CRT attempting to upgrade Nacht's LS

Done, will apply changes later.

 

[Naito-desu]

Anyway, we have 30 hrs remaining so people should focus now on voting with the time left so we can have a clean conclusion

 

[Naito-desu]

Less than 24 hours remaining cast your votes in

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Well, all possible outcomes of that upgrade thread would lead to Light Arrows and Giant being restricted or at least giant no longer viable wincon.



Anyway, I believe Nacht could get off his Shadow Arm wincon faster. I don’t think Link would be fast enough to grab an instrument to play with or a mask to put on. I also don’t see what Link can do with knowledge on Nacht’s shadow arms unless the fight drags on.

In a match where Nacht and Link both have good wincons and knowledge on each other’s wincons and annoying abilities that prevent incap (even if some of Link’s wincon might get restricted after upgrading), Nacht would win most scenarios either by immediately going all out and grabing link from point blank ranges, all directions and at boosted speeds. If Link gets passed the first bout… it would be a bit difficult or he could even win but I don’t think Link can use infinite magic for Giant Mask from a purchasable item. Etc. Link can also win via emphatic manipulation too by just ending the fight but I doubt Nacht would let him do that given the knowledge he has on that too but there would probably be nothing he can do if Link somehow plays a song that slows down time. Link winning is just dependent on Nacht ******* up with the knowledge he has of these things which is highly unlikely.

So with the superior AP and LS, I’m voting Nacht via Shadow arms with Mana Zone augmentation.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

It happens in a few of the clips you sent tho
That wasn't an actual argument btw

I haven't replied to your last point atm btw because Dust made a CRT for light arrows and stuff upgrade, figured get that done first as giant mask is involved.

I briefed everyone in the tournament about the current situation

here is what I said

Giant Link is getting an upgrade to High 6-A or his LS might get downgraded. That’s one of the wincons proposed so that could change.

Light Arrows too was proposed as a wincon but that may also getting upgraded in a crt. I don’t think it’s a valid wincon but that’s up to you guys to decide either way it might break the rules of the tourney soon.

https://vsbattles.com/posts/5214400/

So now,

We don’t know if Triforce can neg paralysis but it is likely will since it protects Link from the effects of magic.

So far Link’s remaining wincon is that he can end the match by playing a song to stop Nacht from fighting. He can technically still use Giant mask or light arrows before they get upgraded but I doubt Giant can be used at all as a valid wincon since the logic that got him to Class E can be negged along with the upgrade crt or if the CRT gets accepted the giant would be High 6-A thus breaking the rules.

My argument: Nacht has the superior AP and LS so I think Nacht wins by simply grabbing Link with shadow arms at boosted speeds, from close range + all directions and crushing Link before he grabs an instrument to play or a mask to put on. There is no reason Nacht would wait to see what happens given that he already knows what the masks can do and the song Link plays to time travel or end the match. Basically he knows how he can lose.


So even if Link knows how he can lose and has ways to beat Nacht, I argue that Nacht has a way to beat Link faster than Link can do anything about it. So now we are waiting for Chariot to finish the Link CRTs.

Is that okay?

 

[Naito-desu]

6 hours left, if time runs out Nacht advances with 1-0 voting score

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

I also vote for Nacht, Link can win in certain situations, but by probability he loses more often than not

 

[Kaio1277999]

I also vote for Nacht, Link can win in certain situations, but by probability he loses more often than not

NATCH FRA High Diff