From Moonrise to Moonset Quarterfinals, Match 3: Nacht vs Link

[Chariot190]

Seems like there is a catch if it wasn’t mentioned for this long

There isn't a catch (beyond just using it), it just slows down time to 30% the original speed, it also effects the speed of NPC's and some enemies as well like Them.
And it's a extremely crucial part of Link's MO and used as a lead, for the whole game in order to enable Link to get as much done in his 3 day window as possible (He basically spams it and has it up at all times).

There's a few other things Link has that are quite good, I just haven't had time to write a concise reply yet.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The "Inverted Song of Time" lets Link slow the flow of time. When played, all events related to the flow of time will move at 30% of their original speed. Events that are not directly involved with the flow of time, such as an enemy attacks or the rate at which Link can move, are not affected.

From Zelda wiki. Hmm…

 

[Chariot190]

From Zelda wiki. Hmm…

I said some enemies lad, even gave an example of Them (Them is the actual name of the enemy).
Just because some enemies resist it doesn't mean they all do, such as
Every single human character in the game (like Sakon the thief for example), literal aliens and more.

Nact doesn't ignore the flow of time last I checked.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Seems like Link’s page is outdated.

 

[Chariot190]

While it is a bit outdated for other reasons
He has time slow listed?
"Time Manipulation (Can speed up, slow, and rewind time with the variations of the Song of Time)"

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah but the 30% 50% things aren’t there. So I assumed they were unquantifiable. Lowkey hate when a page doesn’t have everything listed properly and and those unlisted things are used in threads.

 

[Chariot190]

Oh btw, I wasn't saying Zora field would harm Nacht, just that it could possibly destroy the hands that try to grab him as it covers his whole body and is used specifically to stop and destroy things that grab you, like the Dexihand enemy or Wallmasters.
Link has NPI and can interact with shadow beasts like Bongo Bongo, so I presume he could interact with them here too?

If not then yeah, hands might be a huge issue and could serve as a wincon unless Link starts with Giant Mask or some other loophole Mask (Bomb Mask? Stone Mask?), but that depends on what "partial knowledge" entails, because I don't think he'd use that as a lead unless he knows it's an uphill battle.

Yeah but the 30% 50% things aren’t there. So I assumed they were unquantifiable. Lowkey hate when a page doesn’t have everything listed properly and and those unlisted things are used in threads.

Oh hmm, fair enough. Will remember to note that.
Then you might hate what I'm bout to bring up next


Probably not the case, but just to make sure, this dude isn't evil right?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Dumb resistance to time manipulation isn’t even on Majora’s page. Sigh. The pages are pretty outdated tbh.

 

[Chariot190]

Majora is missing a bunch of funny meme hax, he's cracked the **** out, but Link is what matters here, and while he's missing a few details or a few unconventional powers, as well as the fact he has a pocket High 6-A mask and projectiles which the lads have more or less agreed with being the case he's more or less getting the point across of what he do.

The scariest thing about Majora is the fact I think he might have res negation

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Oh btw, I wasn't saying Zora field would harm Nacht, just that it could possibly destroy the hands that try to grab him as it covers his whole body and is used specifically to stop and destroy things that grab you, like the Dexihand enemy or Wallmasters.
Link has NPI and can interact with shadow beasts like Bongo Bongo, so I presume he could interact with them here too?

Yeah but do shadows really get fried? By destroyed you mean heat wise right? Nacht has the heat resistance for it anyway.

 

[Chariot190]

It ain't heat, it's like, a funny forcefield that covers him that just has some electrical properties (what I meant by "Fried", like being hit by lightning), but it deals damage like anything else.

Here's the lowest possible resolution gif of it I could find off google

 

[Arnoldstone18]

It ain't heat, it's like, a funny forcefield that covers him that just has some electrical properties (what I meant by "Fried", like being hit by lightning), but it deals damage like anything else.

Here's the lowest possible resolution gif of it I could find off google

Is there like a time limit? Or is it until his power runs out.

It won’t really do much, he can just yknow add more arms because it will take a min to destroy the arms already on him due to Nacht’s upscale chain.

Btw Koopa was trying to send an example of link being able to change masks while completely restrained. Do you think he can change masks while restrained or paralyzed?

 

[Chariot190]

Infinite as long as he has magic.
(Note Link has a item that grants him infinite magic when used).

Though, really he just needs to fend them off long enough to swap to Giant's in this case, not inherently kill the shadows.

Btw Koopa was trying to send an example of link being able to change masks while completely restrained. Do you think he can change masks while restrained or paralyzed?

Maybe? I recall you being able to change masks when restrained by Dexihands and Wallmasters, but idk if that's gameplay or not. There's a lot of things in the game that are ambiguously gameplay a big one being how time literally stops when Link plays the Ocarina of Time, that could just be gameplay mechanics so you don't get interrupted while playing, or it could be actual time stop, it's vague as ****. Was just discussing that with Dust meaning idk, maybe, he can at least do it in gameplay, but whether that gameplay is lore accurate is hard to say.


Also I'm about to ruin your day even further sorry mate.
Link can read minds with the Mask of Truth so he should be able to figure out his foe's gimmicks if used.
He also has the Song of healing (and sun song), with the former being able to pacify and calm others (empath manip, though he doesn't really use it in a fight so there's that caveat).
And finally, given I checked in with dust and concluded it's probably just Majora being cracked as **** (as in resistance nullification), the Triforce of Courage nullifies any "evil" magic used upon Link, if Nacht is evil or his magic is deemed "bad" or stems from something "dark and evil" (Kinda like how Midna is good, but Twili magic is evil in nature), things like that shadow parahax would be nullified on Link, but idk if he's evil, has evil magic or the magic is evil in nature or comes from something evil, so I'm asking that because idk.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Currently in class atm.
But no Nacht is not evil.

 

[Chariot190]

But is his magic evil? Or originates from something evil, malicious or dark in nature? (Not dark as in, well, the absence of light, more in the manner of demons, ill intent, dark malicious forces, "evil", and what not).

And that's fine, take your time.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

But is his magic evil? Or originates from something evil, malicious or dark in nature? (Not dark as in, well, the absence of light, more in the manner of demons, ill intent, dark malicious forces, "evil", and what not).

And that's fine, take your time.

His Devil Union draws power from a devil. I am also looking through the manga for times he drew power from a devil without transforming.

The Devils are "supposed" to be evil because their magic is malicious but I guess they started to like Nacht and act funny at times. So idk if they can still be classified as evil after all the good they've done. It's basically similar to Asta's devil who basically wants to kill other devils.

Generally no, Nacht or his magic isn't inherently evil, and if I can confirm he can use devil power without devil union then idk if that would count as evil, but the power is malicious in nature so i guess it should count.

 

[Chariot190]

The Devils are "supposed" to be evil because their magic is malicious but I guess they started to like Nacht and act funny at times. So idk if they can still be classified as evil after all the good they've done. It's basically similar to Asta's devil who basically wants to kill other devils.

If memory serves, Midna's Twili Magic is deemed "evil", even though Midna herself is a core ally, good and actively fights against the main enemy and helps Link constantly and the Twili in general are a good race, it's just the magic was created by the original Twili, who were dark in nature.

It's why Link turns into a Wolf and why the Master Sword reverted it (Blade of "Evil's" Bane and all that. Link doesn't have the master sword in this key, but ToC does the same shit), so a good person can still use "evil" magics in the context of Zelda. In that case, I guess the question is, is Nacht's magic stemming from an evil place or evil inherently?
(Note, this doesn't mean he wouldn't be able to use his magic to fight or attack, it just means he can't status Link or anything like that, such as transmutation as a major example Link's artifacts commonly neg).

Edit: Actually the ToC is why Link turns into a wolf (he was supposed to turn into a disembodied soul but the ToC protected it against that. The MS removed the shard later on). Zelda's did the same, but without the wolf shit (she just stayed normal).

 

[Arnoldstone18]

If memory serves, Midna's Twili Magic is deemed "evil", even though Midna herself is a core ally, good and actively fights against the main enemy and helps Link constantly and the Twili in general are a good race, it's just the magic was created by the original Twili, who were dark in nature.

Oh okay the Devil power would count as "evil" magic.

In that case, I guess the question is, is Nacht's magic stemming from an evil place or evil inherently?

His magic is neutral, and comes from mana like every other human. Nacht can use devil power if he wanted to, I found a few instances where he use devil power to get the attention of captains because Devil power display horns on whoever uses it. Apart from this instance, Nacht uses a bigger devil power amp that is restricted in this tournament.

So I guess I should add devil power to Mana Zone and Reinforcement Magic as the number of amps Nacht has.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I recall you being able to change masks when restrained by Dexihands and Wallmasters,

How thorough is their hold?

Also, this is the problem with game characters with their mechanics. A person who is literally paralyzed should not be able to access their bag for shit.

Link can read minds with the Mask of Truth so he should be able to figure out his foe's gimmicks if used.
He also has the Song of healing (and sun song), with the former being able to pacify and calm others (empath manip, though he doesn't really use it in a fight so there's that caveat).
And finally, given I checked in with dust and concluded it's probably just Majora being cracked as **** (as in resistance nullification), the Triforce of Courage nullifies any "evil" magic used upon Link, if Nacht is evil or his magic is deemed "bad" or stems from something "dark and evil" (Kinda like how Midna is good, but Twili magic is evil in nature), things like that shadow parahax would be nullified on Link, but idk if he's evil, has evil magic or the magic is evil in nature or comes from something evil, so I'm asking that because idk.

Earlier I said that Nacht's Mana Zone spell can prevent Asta from sensing him. Asta has enhanced senses, likened to an animal. Asta can also sense a person from their life force which is actually used to predict moves, and obtain info about a person's strength and all of that. Nacht's Mana Zone spell stops all of that. So would the Lens of truth work at all in that case?

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

But is his magic evil?

Shadow magic is magic and this Natch can only use his base magic, not his devil magic

If he were using devil union, is evil, his base magic can´t be categorized like that

 

[Chariot190]

How thorough is their hold?

Wall Masters are human sized hands, pretty thorough imo, dexi hands less so, they're just long gangly arms with above average sized hands, but multiple can grab at once.

Also, this is the problem with game characters with their mechanics. A person who is literally paralyzed should not be able to access their bag for shit.

Shrug

Earlier I said that Nacht's Mana Zone spell can prevent Asta from sensing him. Asta has enhanced senses, likened to an animal. Asta can also sense a person from their life force which is actually used to predict moves, and obtain info about a person's strength and all of that. Nacht's Mana Zone spell stops all of that. So would the Lens of truth work at all in that case?

Yeah but Link has Enhanced Senses as well, able to see souls, ghosts, and poes (Something that TP Link needs the enhanced senses of Wolf Link for, while this Link does not), feel the presence of ninja's who don't make a sound or movement even from behind and being sneaked attacked and a bunch of other minute things, and yet the Stone Mask invalidates all that and you straight up can't even perceive one who wears it, even Link can't see those who wear it.

Yet with the Lens of Truth, he completely bypasses that, and he can see the lone guard just fine plain as day, it also lets him see through illusions, fake stuff, see through things in general, actual invisibility, souls, that which should not be and more. And The Lens is toggable btw, it ain't a mask, he can use it in conjunction with them.
I don't see why the lens wouldn't just show Link what things are like it does with everything else. He also has Tatl to help too in pinpointing stuff or alerting him of his surroundings, plus some lukewarm info analysis, coupled with the Mask of Truth, Link should be able to easily gather all the intel required on his foe and how his stuff works.

If that's the case that's fine for the magic, but it does mean anything devil related is invalidated.

 

[Chariot190]

Nacht without mana zone is similar to the ninja and even the way the ninja was dealth with was similar to Nacht. But with Mana Zone Nacht’s Stealth Mastery is even greater because he’s able to dampen his presence entirely to the point that extrasensory perception wouldn’t work on him. So I doubt Link can react to attacks within Nacht’s Mana Zone spell.

Lens of Truth can sense those who can't even be sensed by those with esp and enhanced senses, as you said yourself, they have numerous similarities but the only difference is that Nacht can sense magic as said below, and given how much the lens just negs any and all types of perception and stealth of all kinds, including the stone mask, I don't see any actual reason why it wouldn't work here? It isn't like Mana Zone is layered, and if it's a potency thing the Lens has shown to be able to make things with very high potency visible regardless, such as that mask.

The Stone Mask is similar to Nacht’s Mana Zone spell. With so many similarities they should start dating or something idk lol. The only difference is that Nacht’s can neg magic sensing whereas link can’t. So Nacht will be fine with sensing link’s magic.

Just use up his magic? Given he can read minds, he'd know to do that, it's why I brought up the Mask of Truth (that doesn't require magic btw).
And if for whatever reason he needs magic back, he has potions for that.

Though, OP says they have partial knowledge, what exactly do they know about each other? That's important to know what they're actually leading with.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah but Link has Enhanced Senses as well, able to see souls, ghosts, and poes (Something that TP Link needs the enhanced senses of Wolf Link for, while this Link does not), feel the presence of ninja's who don't make a sound or movement even from behind and being sneaked attacked and a bunch of other minute things, and yet the Stone Mask invalidates all that and you straight up can't even perceive one who wears it, even Link can't see those who wear it.

Yet with the Lens of Truth, he completely bypasses that, and he can see the lone guard just fine plain as day, it also lets him see through illusions, fake stuff, see through things in general, actual invisibility, souls, that which should not be and more. And The Lens is toggable btw, it ain't a mask, he can use it in conjunction with them.
I don't see why the lens wouldn't just show Link what things are like it does with everything else. He also has Tatl to help too in pinpointing stuff or alerting him of his surroundings, plus some lukewarm info analysis, coupled with the Mask of Truth, Link should be able to easily gather all the intel required on his foe and how his stuff works.

If that's the case that's fine for the magic, but it does mean anything devil related is invalidated.

Nacht without mana zone is similar to the ninja and even the way the ninja was dealth with was similar to Nacht. But with Mana Zone Nacht’s Stealth Mastery is even greater because he’s able to dampen his presence entirely to the point that extrasensory perception wouldn’t work on him. So I doubt Link can react to attacks within Nacht’s Mana Zone spell.

The Stone Mask is similar to Nacht’s Mana Zone spell. With so many similarities they should start dating or something idk lol. The only difference is that Nacht’s can neg magic sensing whereas link can’t. Actually base Nacht can neg that too. So Nacht will be fine with sensing link’s magic.

The two paragraphs above were sent as messages, I recently deleted them because I didn’t read the whole thing you sent but I think I’ll just resend the two paragraphs.

Anyway yes the Lens of Truth will work in his Mana Zone. this next question may sound dumb, but at times the most trivial things are the best ones. Can the mask see in the dark? The whole environment within Nacht’s mana zone is pitch black. So would the lens of truth only reveal the darkness?

Another point I want to bring up is that with Extrasensory perception Nacht blends his presence with his magic. When Asta could sense him before mana zone was used, all he said that his presence was everywhere in his magic. So he struggled to sense which one was truly Nacht (Asta was fighting shadow clones at the time.)

Last point. Nacht is capable of just straight up sinking into the shadows and watching his opponents moves before attacking them, he does this in his debut. Although it’s possible he went somewhere and just straight up attacked him afterwards. Given Nacht’s massive range with his magic, isn’t that a bit of a problem for Link? With partial knowledge won’t Nacht straight up range spam shadow magic attacks?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Just use up his magic? Given he can read minds, he'd know to do that, it's why I brought up the Mask of Truth (that doesn't require magic btw).
And if for whatever reason he needs magic back, he has potions for that.

Though, OP says they have partial knowledge, what exactly do they know about each other? That's important to know what they're actually leading with.

Weird how Link would just straight up do that. Is he really intelligent enough to fight like this? Isn’t his genius intelligence skill based? Well that’s fine… I don’t mind.

Can the masks be destroyed?

Damn I ask a lot of questions.
Just all these information and I don’t want to be surprised with more shit.

 

[Chariot190]

Anyway yes the Lens of Truth will work in his Mana Zone. this next question may sound dumb, but at times the most trivial things are the best ones. Can the mask see in the dark? The whole environment within Nacht’s mana zone is pitch black. So would the lens of truth only reveal the darkness?

I would assume yes, in fact pretty sure that's a key component of it. It lets him see the completely invisible bongo bongo in a dark as **** arena, in tombs and what not, plus Link can always just light up a high 6-A Light Arrow if need be anyhow.
The lens isn't a mask btw, it's just a item, even OOT Link has it.

Another point I want to bring up is that with Extrasensory perception Nacht blends his presence with his magic. When Asta could sense him before mana zone was used, all he said that his presence was everywhere in his magic. So he struggled to sense which one was truly Nacht (Asta was fighting shadow clones at the time.)

That's cool but Link doesn't rely on sensing magic so it wouldn't really effect his game plan.
If shadow clones are at play, Tatl could probably help, assuming the lens don't just show the clones as they really are, fakes.

Last point. Nacht is capable of just straight up sinking into the shadows and watching his opponents moves before attacking them, he does this in his debut. Although it’s possible he went somewhere and just straight up attacked him afterwards. Given Nacht’s massive range with his magic, isn’t that a bit of a problem for Link? With partial knowledge won’t Nacht straight up range spam shadow magic attacks?

Link can teleport as well on at least a country wide scale, the issue is just zoning him.
Assuming he doesn't say **** it and whip out Giant's Mask.
Though if Link himself gets knowledge of that as well, that would be quite dangerous as he could just obliterate the shadows with a light arrow.

I want to point out though, Mask of Truth let's Link read minds and hearts of others, coupled with Tatl, it might be difficult to get the drop on Link when coupled with slow down, he should be able to avoid many attacks and whip out a reliable counter as he's 3x faster.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

The definition of “partial knowledge” is unclear

Cuz Link would probably know Nacht can use Shadow arms, but would he know how or when Nacht will use them?

All of these things you’ve said counter how Nacht will use them but would he be able to get off all these things off before Nacht attacks?

Nacht’s starting moves are always mana zone (not the dark hunting ground spell), shadow paralysis, shadow arms pinning, crushing, or choking out.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

If Link gets pinned we don’t know how he will break out. We don’t know if he can switch masks while his entire body is pinned with arms.

If link is choked out or crushed with arms spawning and wrapping all over, is that a wincon? It should be

If Link is literally paralyzed. Again we don’t know how he will even break out of the paralysis.

These are all starting moves, even without partial knowledge and it’s weird how Link has so many starting moves all at once. He can’t just say “aight I’ll start by using giant mask that drains my magic while also using mask and lens of truth while also slowing down time while also…” huhh??

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Maybe you didn’t literally say those are his starting moves but that’s how I’m currently seeing it. Maybe I’m just tired from all the work. Will go rest.

Game Mechanics shouldn’t matter. Link should be incapable of accessing inventory when thoroughly pinned, eating dirt, with a shadow arm to every part link’s body. Paralysis inducement should be a clear wincon, Nacht has enough magic to last days and this is a 12 Hr tournament.

Partial Knowledge needs to be defined.

 

[Chariot190]

Weird how Link would just straight up do that. Is he really intelligent enough to fight like this? Isn’t his genius intelligence skill based? Well that’s fine… I don’t mind.

Can the masks be destroyed?

Damn I ask a lot of questions.
Just all these information and I don’t want to be surprised with more shit.

If he learns his foe senses him via magic, why would he keep up his magic? He can work around it, and Link don't got a PhD, but he ain't dumb. And his intelligence is combat as a whole. He doesn't know things like math, science and what not, but skill, combat, critical thinking, puzzle solving and abstract thinking and what not he excels in.

Some Masks can be destroyed, maybe, idk, literally never happened. But they're at least as durable as Link himself, Transformation masks basically fuse with him (they hold the souls of others and literally transmutate Link into a different biological entity, mask fusing with him to become the face), and then we got some masks like the bomb mask that can tank blowing itself up with a blast that can harm Link, etc.
They're definitely durable at the very least, and some I'd say would be completely unreasonable to assume could be destroyed in this match like bomb or giant or the transformation ones just given how they work.
Some like the mask of scents, bunny hood and more I don't see being anything special tho or have feats to suggest insane toughness.

Also if you don't want to be surprised, here's just about everything I can think off the top of my head Link has that might be useful here

• Mind Reading via Mask of Truth, let's him read minds and see into the hearts of others; Should enable him to learn the quirks of what his opponent can do.
• Stone Mask, makes him imperceptible and possibly causes others to just register his existence as that of a basic stone, thus ignored, given Link resists perception manip, and this mask effects even him, it's layered +1. Nacht could likely sense him via magic, but if Link picks up on this through one of a few ways, he'd know to work around it by just wasting his magic.
• Song of Inversed Time, slows down the flow of time to 30% while Link remains at normal speed, effectively a 3x+ boost in reaction and combat speed, would help him dodge and avoid attacks, get his own attacks off and more, thus while his foe has a huge advantage in movement, Link is going to have a noticeable advantage in actual combat and what not.
• Rewind, let's him redo everything with prior knowledge basically and try a better method at winning, stacked onto slow down, it'd be a lot less difficult to get off.
• Fairy. Upon death or when he needs to be healed, it will do so automatically.
• Romani, grants him infinite magic to use when consumed for that time cycle (Upon rewind the effect is lost tho).
• Zora Field cloaks him in a forcefield that damages anything that comes into contact with it, would help against the shadow hands due to Link having NPI and what not.
• Giant's Mask, grants Link Class E LS, asinine boost in strength making him high 6-A. If used he basically dogwalks the fight, can't be pinned, restrained or anything of the sort not to mention he just hits way harder.
• Deku Nuts have temporary parahax and also emit a bright flash of light (they're basically just stun grenades, not the largest range).
• Song of Healing calms those who hear it and pacify them and traps souls into a mask he can use to take on their form and powers,
• Couple's Mask ends fights and bickering, could help end the fight maybe? It's listed as empath hax on the profile.
• Lens of Truth negs invisibility, perception manip, illusions and more, can be coupled with any mask.
• Goron Lullaby, makes those who hear it drowsy and falls asleep (This isn't magic or a spell btw, nor does Link vocalize anything, it's just a melody played on a instrument, that has funny effects because it just do), as with all the songs.
• Bomb Mask, basically blows himself up, could be used to fend off the hands and give him enough time to swap to giant's.
• When Link plays the ocarina everything halts and thus he should be able to do his songs without any issue
• Link has temporal teleportation, can warp to different points in time (usually at the hour, in a span of 72 hours), though based on time blocks in OOT, he can seemingly warp things through time by 7 years.
• He has elemental arrows that can immolate, but more notably freeze (Can even freeze shadow beast bongo bongo's hands completely solid, so they got NPI), and light arrows (parahax, holy and light manip, arguably the strongest weapon this Link has). Normally I'd say anyone skilled enough could dodge them from a distance, but they'll be 3x as fast as his foe, they very well could hit and the light arrow could just straight up neg the shadows and dispel magic according to the profile.
• Mirror Shield, can reflect and absorb light and elemental magic if struck and even reflected back, but I don't think nacht uses anything that can be utilized against him.
• Health Potion, Mana Potion, Double Potion (heals both).
• Mask of Scents (gives him really good smell ig? idk probably useless).
• Sealing with bottles (He has 6 total, his potions in them but obviously they can be used once wasted or used), can seal things like ghosts or even something like the Deku Princess. Really don't know what to think about this one myself.
• Can summon 4 High 6-A entities with the Oath to Order in the form of the Giants
• Link can dispel curses
• Triforce protects against evil magic and status effects and other magical properties (I only bring this up still because I'm not sure if the shadow parahax would be protected against, or if it'd work).
• Link actually resists perception manip as listed on his profile (meaning the stone mask is layered perception manip), idk if mana zone is perception manip but if it involves that then at the very least that part of it would be rendered moot
• Tatl has info analysis, not great though but it helps.
• Apparently Link has the range advantage? Personally that's sus as **** bar like maybe arrows but he has dozens of km listed for ranged attacks on the profile... Tbh I'd be willing to handwave this as the Link profile being a tad forgotten compared to someone like Ganon, but it do be saying that, I'll let others decide.

There's other stuff but it ain't on the profile so shrug (also that time stop thing is a joke but only slightly), also the songs don't require magic and spells so idk if we wanna actually treat them as standard magic. So there, I don't think anything else of note is gonna be brought up unless it involves the triforce (because that shit has feats from like 20+ games and I can't be assed to remember every little thing it helped with atm).

These are all starting moves, even without partial knowledge and it’s weird how Link has so many starting moves all at once. He can’t just say “aight I’ll start by using mask and lens of truth while also slowing down time while also…” huhh??

Video game character issue, hard to figure out a lead when you, the player, decides the lead and what to do and the only confirmed thing he's done in a fight in MM is use the Fierce Deity Mask against Majora, everything else is up to you, and even worse because the bosses in MM can be killed in a multitude of ways pre 3D. i will agree though, it is annoying and why I usually don't use player characters in matches myself.
Song of inverted time is like the only think I will attest to as being a lead 90% of the time, and mostly because the game is built around it. Link has three days, 72 hours to do things, and try to to stop Majora from ending the world, so he uses it at the start of each cycle to get as much done as he possibly can in his time limit, before rewinding time and starting again, slowing down time so he can do as much again in the next loop. Given he can't do all the quests, temples and more to rescue the giants in the 72h time limit he's given before the end of the world.
Everything else is just case dependent.

Game Mechanics shouldn’t matter. Link should be incapable of accessing inventory.

Link shouldn't even be able to carry about 10 tons of equipment in his nonexistent pockets in the same way someone like Solid Snake can carry about 40+ guns on him in 4. It's just video game logic, comes coupled with the characters.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Just read everything

Something came up so Ill have to reply later, probably tomorrow. Thank you for outlining everything for me.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Okay I’m back, was pretty rough. So let’s continue.

Paralysis would be Nacht's insurance wincon because Link has nothing to counter (at the start of the match at least). That's a win via pinfall with Nacht just leaving him there and letting the timer run out or Nacht just goes for the kill which is more likely.

So let's go over what else Nacht can do.

Nacht is capable of casting multiple shadow arms from any shadow in the area including Link's own shadow. With Mana Zone he doesn't need a shadow, he can cast shadow arms from all directions and they spawn anywhere within range. Mana Zone takes control of the magical energy in the area and if Nacht wanted to, he can nullify spells by having a strong enough control thus messing with the magic. Due to the Link not even scaling to Magna (one of the weakest that scale to Nacht's AP value, Nacht upscales off multiple characters within that value. Pre-SCDM Training Magna < Post-SCDM Training Magna =< Leopold = Luck = Asta/Yuno < Nacht), Link using magic would be practically pointless. Nacht with mana skin can also prevent a weaker opponent with magical nullification from nullifying their magic so idk if Light Arrows will have an effect. His magic isn't evil. It may look evil due to it being shadow magic but his magic just manipulates literal shadows. His magic needs NPI for it to be affected. Nacht with mana skin can resist the heat of lightning, the resistance grows the stronger your mana skin, and the one who he scales from is massively weaker than him. Nacht has the superior LS too and that too has a long scaling chain that can be augmented with mana zone and reinforcement magic. He can use some devil power if he wanted to but Link can take care of that, but the power could still be used for amping stats like speed. His stealth mastery is pretty good, his magic can't be sensed magically, while you know the Mana Zone spell that makes even his very life force undetectable (though Link counters with Lens of Truth)


So now let's argue on Nacht's second wincon. Shadow arms.

So we know Nacht can spawn Hundreds if not thousands of shadow arms with Mana Zone. Infact that Mana Zone spell I was talking about is made up entirely of his shadow arms. So even if Nacht doesn’t have the speed, he has sheer numbers as well. So with that + Nacht’s “Partial Knowledge” of the time manipulation, his ability to cast arms literally anywhere within range, his sheer dexterity with the free maneuverability of the shadow arms and his own speed amps to reduce the gap: Nacht will definitely catch Link and either Choke him out, Crush him, pin him or do whatever the **** one can do with arms.



Idk Game logic is literally stupid af but IF he can switch masks while pinned down then pinning down isn’t an option. I’m sure with “partial knowledge” Nacht would less likely go for that based off the name “Giant” mask (can’t get more “partial” than the ******* name I guess) and it’s not like he needs Link alive for anything nor does he know the rules of this match where he can at least think about pinning as an option so there is no point pinning. Also the reason why I said Nacht has the superior range is because he can cast shadow arms through a shadow portal. And he can create portals of off link’s shadow like he did to Asta. Nacht has several hundreds (if not thousands because he can sense and go to anyone’s shadow from any part of the continent) of kilometers of range with portals and teleportation.





Link’s miscellaneous abilities won’t be helpful early on because he would’ve probably already died at the start. Nacht goes for the kill and he does it as quickly and as fast as possible. He paralyzed Asta and he hasn’t even met him physically before but he needed him alive. He instantly killed a mage who caught him collecting info on their kingdom’s affairs. He doesn’t go for the kill instantly in training, however when training was over he went for the kill immediately so that his trainee (Asta btw) can grow somehow.



Let’s look at the LS difference. Link normally starts at scales to 173,395 joules while Nacht massively upscales from 4,675,600 Joules with a higher chain than his AP. He shows up around a time where a lot of characters on his level were literally about to reach Class T with their next power up. INFACT, his LS is so much ******* higher into Class K that he can literally hold down a supreme devil (that scales to Class T) in base form for a single moment. A moment long enough for Asta to catch up and deliver a killing blow. So that makes Nacht far far far more than 27x greater than Link. Shit I might even make a CRT for Nacht to downscale from the ******* Class T value with that info. Sorry for hopping on Nacht’s dick like this.



In conclusion, Nacht would not need Link alive. So he would immediately go straight for the kill. Link starts by slowing time by 30%, but he can’t escape his own shadow where Nacht can attack from. Nacht mostly uses Devil Union. Since that is restricted he will immediately use Mana Zone. It’s activated instantaneously (but the mana zone spell, dark prison hunting ground, requires the shadow arms to fill the mana zone to make it pitch black). If you somehow believe a 3x speed boost is enough to dodge the plethora of shadow arms then you can’t possibly think they can with Mana Zone amping it’s speed, increasing it’s number, and allowing it being cast from the space around Link and not just his shadow. Once the arms grab link they will immediately move to crush him easily, killing him.



TL; DR

Nacht paralyzes Link, since he doesn’t need link around he can kill him.


Nacht can still grab Link despite starting with 3x speed amp (which isn’t a speed blitz amp) 90% of the time, then crushes link with so many shadow arms appearing from his own shadow or space itself. Link still can’t physically outrun the shadows or he will get blitzed.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

So I guess I’m voting Nacht based off all that.

You said you aren’t voting right?

 

[Chariot190]

You know killing Link isn't an option right? He has fairies. He automatically revives upon death.

All killing Link is going to do is revive him but now he knows exactly what to do to counter. Plus you forget Link has a 3x speed advantage, why can't Link quickly swap before he gets attacked? He's 3x faster than the attack after all, that should be ample time to swap

And for parahax, that's why I mentioned the Triforce

Triforce protects against evil magic and status effects and other magical properties

Right here. I'm not so sure it'd work given all it can protect against, coupled with Link himself dispelling curses and magics against him.

Plus some of the arguments you made were based on partial knowledge, does Link not get partial knowledge of these as well? Wouldn't knowing he can cast shadow arms illicit him to make sure he's in giant or at the very least zora to fend them off?

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Ok, I am searching about Link having triforce of courage in Majora´s mask

What is the reasoning appart of the small note of his profile? Because for example I remember Link being scared during his Deku transformation by Majora

I am not saying that he should not have the powers, I just want to see the logic behind it

 

[Chariot190]

Majora's Mask is apart of the Child Timeline, which goes OOT>MM>TP

WW is apart of the Adult timeline, where Link shed his piece of the Triforce, that timeline goes OOT>Link ******* vanishes from the face of the world (time travel)>WW.

Zelda has three timeline splits at OOT, the third being Link straight up gets killed by Ganon and then it goes into AlttP, first split leads in Majora, the second leads into WW.

What about Deku Link?

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

OOT>Link ******* vanishes from the face of the world (time travel)>WW.

I though it was that link could choose not to leave the future but okay

The Deku part is Link when he is being transformed in a Deku when he is following Majora, which I thought can´t happen because he has the Triforce of Courage so it should protect him

Probably Majora just overpowers the resistance, I don´t know, one of the reasons I just enjoy the game without thinking of the other entries

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah, I discussed that with Dust yesterday actually, Majora probably gonna get resistance negation or something (though he very well could just neg it entirely, Majora scales literally magnitudes above a piece of the triforce, the thing is tier 4 casually while ToC is only high tier 6. Plus his transmutation is cracked, it's implied he warped not only the moon into what we see, but the whole universe into a world based on Skull Kid's dreams), because transmuation is in fact something that can't happen due to the ToC, explicitly, it's most common feat is preventing transmutation, most obvious example is Zelda's piece straight up negating all the effects of the twilight on her, which includes transmutation explicitly. As a plot point mind you.

And yes fair, battle boarding zelda can be messy, it's not exactly done with this in mind.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

You know killing Link isn't an option right? He has fairies. He automatically revives upon death.

Yeah he has lives, does he not revive where he’s killed? Y’know in the arms that crushed his body, in the shadow where he’s paralyzed.

Cant the fairies be attacked?

Plus some of the arguments you made were based on partial knowledge, does Link not get partial knowledge of these as well? Wouldn't knowing he can cast shadow arms illicit him to make sure he's in giant or at the very least zora to fend them off?

Link gets partial knowledge but it simply won’t matter. He can’t turn into a giant due to being paralyzed. Zora mask is not a good idea due to the number of arms he has to destroy. Don’t forget Nacht has a sizeable scaling chain on top of his mana zone amp and mana skin protecting it so the arms won’t get destroyed easily and the shadows can recuperate.
Crushing Link would be easy and fast as explained.

And for parahax, that's why I mentioned the Triforce
Right here. I'm not so sure it'd work given all it can protect against, coupled with Link himself dispelling curses and magics against him.

But I already mentioned the fact that Mana Skin prevents Nacht’s magic from being dispelled. He has resistance to magic nullification.

Also the fact that you’re emphasizing the use of the Triforce with such uncertainty isn’t fair : / It hasn’t protected Link against parahax* has it?

*I never knew parahax was paralysis, my bad.

 

[Chariot190]

Yeah he has lives, does he not revive where he’s killed? Y’know in the arms that crushed his body, in the shadow where he’s paralyzed.
Cant the fairies be attacked?

Probably, if he knows they're there anyway or would be willing to kill innocent 3rd parties, but even Navi survived Ganon telling her to **** off even if it was literally just him telling her to **** off. Plus it's automatic, killing them won't prevent Link res, maybe, at the very least it won't do anything if he already revives.
Again, not so sure about the parahax.

Link gets partial knowledge but it simply won’t matter. He can’t turn into a giant due to being paralyzed. Zora mask is not a good idea due to the number of arms he has to destroy.

He doesn't need to destroy them all, he just needs them to **** off for not even a fraction of a second. Remember, he's 3x faster than them, and can swap masks in frames, and he can swap while using the things like the field. If he's untouched for even a moment, he can get out of there.

Don’t forget Nacht has a sizeable scaling chain on top of his mana zone amp and mana skin protecting it so the arms won’t get destroyed easily and the shadows can recuperate.

He literally only needs a split second, less given time dilation. And again, not so sure on parahax. I'm not saying he can destroy all the arms, in fact I doubt he could destroy thousands, I'm just saying it should at least give him a second and **** with the arms actively touching him.

Crushing Link would be easy and fast as explained.

And what if he leads with Giant's Mask due to partial knowledge? Or whips out a light arrow due to fighting a shadow manipulator which I'd assume would be a given in the partial knowledge? Either one should work.

But I already mentioned the fact that Mana Skin prevents Nacht’s magic from being dispelled. He has resistance to magic nullification.

From something as powerful as the Triforce? And you misunderstand, I'm not saying his magic would be nullified, he can still use it, just the effect on Link itself would be negated. Think of it as a passive healing, like an automatic full heal from Pokemon or something, TF doesn't stop others from using magic, it just makes the effects on Link himself moot and not effect him himself (it can effect everything else tho and others just fine). It dispels curses and magics against him, notably evil ones apparently but everywhere I read it doesn't actually specify evil except maybe the dark world (Master Sword is exclusively evil tho I know that).

Also the fact that you’re emphasizing the use of the Triforce with such uncertainty isn’t fair : / It hasn’t protected Link against parahax* has it?

It protects against magic and effects and what not used against him so shrug If the parahax wasn't magical in nature like a straightup flash grenade or normal lightning I'd say that'd be fair game (which it would be, Link's been effected by nonmagical stuff just fine before), it's more the fact it's magic that I'm arguing it
To be honest I don't even know where half the shit Link's stuff comes from because he has zero citations, I have a general idea but that's just going off my own knowledge of the games, like "Dispels curses", what's that from? Is it the Triforce? It could be as that can dispel curses. Or is it just from milk (his milk heals curses). That could also be it. Maybe it's both? Who knows, he has no scans. Some is obvious (like mind reading via mask of truth) but some just doesn't elaborate.

And the Triforce yeah, ngl, I'm just going on memory and occasionally looking through guides and the zelda wiki given it spans across 30 years of games and knowing every feat off the top of my head is a bit ridiculous, I like Zelda, but I ain't the Zelda dude, that would be Dust. It ain't like JoJo where I've memorized just about everything.
After this is done, I planned on playing Majora to add scans and spruce up Majora's Mask, but probably going to do so for Link as well given, well not inherently missing a lot, none of that shit is explained at all and is overly vague and lacks any examples.


Again, I'd like to ask what does Link and Nacht actually know about each other? Link could get ****** if he doesn't know what to do and leads with some stupid shit like bunny hood that does nothing here or the mask of scents, or he could dogwalk if he knows enough to lead with the Giant's Mask or to have a light arrow lit at all times or maybe even the Couple's Mask which is basically passive empath hax to end fights or summoning 4 High 6-A entities to come bully his foe for him.
Link has easy winconditions, but he also has just as many lose conditions if he leads with a wrong thing. And as said above, knowing what Link leads with beyond time dilation is impossible because video game, OP needs to elaborate what Link and Nacht know of each other so we can figure out what they're likely to use, or at least Link would use.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

He literally only needs a split second, less given time dilation. And again, not so sure on parahax. I'm not saying he can destroy all the arms, in fact I doubt he could destroy thousands, I'm just saying it should at least give him a second and **** with the arms actively touching him.

Sigh, likewise Nacht because Link and the shadows are in touching distance, it will only take a fraction of a second to grab and crush him. Though the parahax is instantaneous given the fact that he’s in touching distance with his shadow on the ground

And what if he leads with Giant's Mask due to partial knowledge? Or whips out a light arrow due to fighting a shadow manipulator which I'd assume would be a given in the partial knowledge? Either one should work.

Wont Nacht just have to wait? Link won’t last very long in that giant form. The light arrows dispel magic right? Nacht had the mana skin thing to counter his magic being dispelled. The Giant form would work but only temporarily Nacht with the same partial ******* knowledge (I’ll call the OP) can decide to **** off to a far away place and attack through portals or just wait.

From something as powerful as the Triforce? And you misunderstand, I'm not saying his magic would be nullified, he can still use it, just the effect on Link itself would be negated. Think of it as a passive healing, like an automatic full heal from Pokemon or something, TF doesn't stop others from using magic, it just makes the effects on Link himself moot and not effect him himself (it can effect everything else tho and others just fine). It dispels curses and magics against him, notably evil ones apparently but everywhere I read it doesn't actually specify evil except maybe the dark world (Master Sword is exclusively evil tho I know that).

I was referring to Link himself when I said that, not the Triforce. AND HOW STRONG IS THE TRI FORCE? 3-A?? do we have a Lowkey Smurf on our hands . If it’s 6-C Nacht override it. I’m confused about what you said. If the effect of his magic is negated doesn’t that mean his magic is nega-??? That’s a bit of a paradox. He’s using his magic but isn’t? The effects of the paralysis is him continuously using his magic. Right??

It protects against magic and effects and what not used against him so shrug If the parahax wasn't magical in nature like a straightup flash grenade or normal lightning I'd say that'd be fair game (which it would be, Link's been effected by nonmagical stuff just fine before), it's more the fact it's magic that I'm arguing it
To be honest I don't even know where half the shit Link's stuff comes from because he has zero citations, I have a general idea but that's just going off my own knowledge of the games, like "Dispels curses", what's that from? Is it the Triforce? It could be as that can dispel curses. Or is it just from milk (his milk heals curses). That could also be it. Maybe it's both? Who knows, he has no scans. Some is obvious (like mind reading via mask of truth) but some just doesn't elaborate.

And the Triforce yeah, ngl, I'm just going on memory and occasionally looking through guides and the zelda wiki given it spans across 30 years of games and knowing every feat off the top of my head is a bit ridiculous, I like Zelda, but I ain't the Zelda dude, that would be Dust. It ain't like JoJo where I've memorized just about everything.
After this is done, I planned on playing Majora to add scans and spruce up Majora's Mask, but probably going to do so for Link as well given, well not inherently missing a lot, none of that shit is explained at all and is overly vague and lacks any examples.

Idk why that isn’t power null. You’re literally negating the function of the magic itself on Link. That happens in black clover too. Infact when this same mana skin was first introduced it protected against the effects of a magical vulcano. Later on it, ironically, it was used to negate other abilities that function similar to mana skin. For examples Elves can protect themselves from magic and it’s effects with their aura, Noelle then used her mana skin to neg that. The elf then layered her shit with a spell to neg Noelle’s mana skin and Noelle straight up negged even that with a higher transformation Nacht and other mages who learned mana skin on Noelle’s level can do the same with Triforce if it’s not some Smurf shit.

I won’t be surprised if TLOZ is a magical verse. I remember my older cousins playing it when I was a kid. Filled with a lot of magical shit.

Maybe the OP meant full knowledge on immortality and dangerous shit and no knowledge on other stuff. Idk I’ll let him know.