Frisk Damage Reduction and Sans SI and 4th wall awareness, breaking.

[ShionAH]

Aside from the fact I don't care...

That was uncalled for

mostly because SI is debatable and 4th Wall can be a little eh

I see.

 

[DaReaperMan]

That was uncalled for

I see.

Listen my care for about 99% of Undertale threads has been Nonexistent, even if I like Undertale

 

[ShionAH]

Listen my care for about 99% of Undertale threads has been Nonexistent, even if I like Undertale

 

[DaReaperMan]

Basically!

 

[Eficiente]

I don't agree with DR, the 1° example is either Asriel holding back subconsciously or DT granting extra durability alone, the 2° is Sans being too tired for his attacks to have the power to finish off his foe.

The rest is fine.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Asriel holding back subconsciously

You got proof of that shit when he wanted Frisk to ******* die?

 

[Eficiente]

Yes, the fact that he was conflicted in that decision to the point of not wanting Frisk to die anymore seconds later. It's not binary, that he wanted Frisk to die isn't only followed by working 100% at his best to do that, because information is given to us that make that more complex.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Yes, the fact that he was conflicted in that decision to the point of not wanting Frisk to die anymore seconds later. It's not binary, that he wanted Frisk to die isn't only followed by working 100% at his best to do that, because information is given to us that make that more complex.

Ah yes, using an attack that's literally stronger then all of his other attacks to the point it puts Frisk on 1 health automatically is him subconsciously holding back, cause that makes apsolute sense.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

I disagree with Damage Reduction/Invulnerability. This is obviously just Sans getting getting tired and not slamming hard enough to deal damage.

 

[Lynieryz]

how does that even make any sense to anyone?

"sans is suddenly lazy at the exact moment you have 1 life point left and curiously hits weak enough for you to survive"

Like just call it an outlier and call it a day, is more believable than that thing.

 

[Eficiente]

Ah yes, using an attack that's literally stronger then all of his other attacks to the point it puts Frisk on 1 health automatically is him subconsciously holding back, cause that makes apsolute sense.

You're not thinking it right, picking what info to use or not use.

• Frisk was reaching Asriel with their words, Asriel showed being affected by it
• Asriel attacks with a laser bigger and stronger that drops their HP to 1
  • the continuous blast does not kill the Frisk with 1 HP, it doesn't cause as much damage as before, it causes less damage than before over time
• Asriel gives up wanting to attack right after that

So, the bigger energy beam and its initial power was Asriel wanting to kill Frisk, everything else wasn't. This is not some power Frisk has to reduce the damage of attacks they get, this is Asriel reducing the power of his own attack, because his mind is in the build up right before deciding to not want to attack anymore. That is objectively more reasonable. He even showed as Flowey the ability to lower the power of energy beams he shoots by making many that one-shot Frisk yet the last one leaving him on 1 HP.

Also the sarcasm is unnecessary.

how does that even make any sense to anyone?

"sans is suddenly lazy at the exact moment you have 1 life point left and curiously hits weak enough for you to survive"

Like just call it an outlier and call it a day, is more believable than that thing.

Not my argument.

 

[DaReaperMan]

You're not thinking it right, picking what info to use or not use.

• Frisk was reaching Asriel with their words, Asriel showed being affected by it
• Asriel attacks with a laser bigger and stronger that drops their HP to 1
  • the continuous blast does not kill the Frisk with 1 HP, it doesn't cause as much damage as before, it causes less damage than before over time
• Asriel gives up wanting to attack right after that

So, the bigger energy beam and its initial power was Asriel wanting to kill Frisk, everything else wasn't. This is not some power Frisk has to reduce the damage of attacks they get, this is Asriel reducing the power of his own attack, because his mind is in the build up right before deciding to not want to attack anymore. That is objectively more reasonable. He even showed as Flowey the ability to lower the power of energy beams he shoots by making many that one-shot Frisk yet the last one leaving him on 1 HP.

Also the sarcasm is unnecessary.

Not my argument.

Mental gymnastics. Nobody else in the entirety of Undertale reduces Frisk's health to less then 1, including characters who genuinely don't want to really hurt you like Papyrus and Toriel, but Asriel's faceblasting does.

 

[Eficiente]

So you're saying they're mental gymnastics because of that? You don't say anything else.

I'm not saying anyone else in the entirety of Undertale has the ability to do so, it's pretty special. It makes no sense to point out how they don't do that as that premise gives them a new ability to do something they didn't have before.

Even then, even if they could all do this (they can't), it makes sense that they don't gameplay wise and for this to be reserved in a more special case, that just means they limited to game mechanics. Imagine for example in a game a friend being able to kill the protagonist via shots in a fight whereas later some other character's shots can't kill the protagonist in-story, before they give up anyway. You can limit every characters via game mechanics but then randomly pick a character so that this doesn't apply to them so that once something happens in a story, that happens. It's also not sustainable as a mechanic to keep to work with HP going as low as 0.000001, that's only sustainable to show & then not do anything with it as we move on from it.

Asriel himself may not be able to do this, the numbers shown may just be for drama, game mechanics that simply mean that he attacked with lower and lower power as to not finish off Frisk.

It's a pretty bad argument overall.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I dunno man, I'm just out here looking at Papyrus railing your ass with hundreds of bones at once and that not doing 0.1 incriminates of damage. It's not game mechanics if Asriel is the only guy who puts you below 1 health still. Also arguing game mechanics or coding with a game where game mechanics are literally canon is the literal dumbest thing I've heard in awhile... and I've looked at Maou Gakuin a bit recently

 

[Eficiente]

I dunno man, I'm just out here looking at Papyrus railing your ass with hundreds of bones at once and that not doing 0.1 incriminates of damage.

That's the same argument I already replied to.

It's not game mechanics if Asriel is the only guy who puts you below 1 health still.

No you can't say that it can't be game mechanics if X character doesn't apply by them because, as I said before, the limits game mechanics give can be ignored at random by games to make special cases. This is not understanding game mechanics in games.

Also arguing game mechanics or coding with a game where game mechanics are literally canon is the literal dumbest thing I've heard in awhile... and I've looked at Maou Gakuin a bit recently

That's a horrible argument, that a game has some game mechanics be canon doesn't mean that all its game mechanics are canon. Even if that were to somehow be the case, that would only mean that characters are self aware of those limits, not that they can & will overcome them in-game, because in-game is where the game mechanics are.

 

[DaReaperMan]

That's the same argument I already replied to.



No you can't say that it can't be game mechanics if X character doesn't apply by them because, as I said before, the limits game mechanics give can be ignored at random by games to make special cases. This is not understanding game mechanics in games.



That's a horrible argument, that a game has some game mechanics be canon doesn't mean that all its game mechanics are canon. Even if that were to somehow be the case, that would only mean that characters are self aware of those limits, not that they can & will overcome them in-game, because in-game is where the game mechanics are.

And i answered it by tackling the core of the argument Efi.

no Efi, you don't seem to understand, if you want to call 0.1 incriminates game mechanics then you have to tackle Undertale as a whole, and breaking game mechanics... dude, Sans also does this by going first in his battle, Asgore too, he breaks the mercy button, this isn't an isolated occurrence, basically making this argument awful at best and ignorant of the verse at worst. I'm going with the best case scenario here.

When basically everything about the game mechanics are referenced in some way, yeah. And it's not even limits, unless you want to call Sans or Asgore special for breaking shit, the Game mechanics are very loose in this case, remember, this is Undertale your talking about, the 4th wall doesn't exist in regards to game mechanics and multiple characters Unga bunga break the game mechanics.

 

[Eficiente]

And i answered it by tackling the core of the argument Efi.

Not for the first sentence, that was just the same "Character who doesn't want you dead attacks you and the same doesn't happen". It doesn't even make sense for you as in canon Frisk doesn't die and is just captured, meaning that dying is just a game mechanic to transition into them being kidnapped.

no Efi, you don't seem to understand, if you want to call 0.1 incriminates game mechanics then you have to tackle Undertale as a whole, and breaking game mechanics... dude, Sans also does this by going first in his battle, Asgore too, he breaks the mercy button, this isn't an isolated occurrence, basically making this argument awful at best and ignorant of the verse at worst. I'm going with the best case scenario here.

When basically everything about the game mechanics are referenced in some way, yeah. And it's not even limits, unless you want to call Sans or Asgore special for breaking shit, the Game mechanics are very loose in this case, remember, this is Undertale your talking about, the 4th wall doesn't exist in regards to game mechanics and multiple characters Unga bunga break the game mechanics.

No, you just made up as a rule that I need to "tackle Undertale as a whole", with no logic behind it. Yes, a lot of things that are or aren't game mechanics happen, there is nothing to it that matters to this. Any 1 game mechanic that limits things is an isolated occurrence, out of all of them, that many times things that are or aren't game mechanics happen doesn't add less value to any 1 game mechanic not being a game mechanic, you made that up.

Many things about the game are special, what Sans does is special and thus you can't claim other characters can do the same. The Game mechanics are very loose, that's correct to say, the issue is that you don't follow logic at all to deal with it, there is just 1 thing you want and everything else accommodates to makes sense of it. The 4th wall exists, claiming it doesn't is nonsense, you don't know what you're talking about, if it didn't exist every character could do anything in that sense. At the end you repeat yourself.

If you want to go to the core of the argument then please don't repeat yourself and try to say the logic, not the occurrences in UT, as to why you believe what you do. I will then tell you why I find clear that that's not correct at all.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Not for the first sentence, that was just the same "Character who doesn't want you dead attacks you and the same doesn't happen". It doesn't even make sense for you as in canon Frisk doesn't die and is just captured, meaning that dying is just a game mechanic to transition into them being kidnapped.

No, you just made up as a rule that I need to "tackle Undertale as a whole", with no logic behind it. Yes, a lot of things that are or aren't game mechanics happen, there is nothing to it that matters to this. Any 1 game mechanic that limits things is an isolated occurrence, out of all of them, that many times things that are or aren't game mechanics happen doesn't add less value to any 1 game mechanic not being a game mechanic, you made that up.

Many things about the game are special, what Sans does is special and thus you can't claim other characters can do the same. The Game mechanics are very loose, that's correct to say, the issue is that you don't follow logic at all to deal with it, there is just 1 thing you want and everything else accommodates to makes sense of it. The 4th wall exists, claiming it doesn't is nonsense, you don't know what you're talking about, if it didn't exist every character could do anything in that sense. At the end you repeat yourself.

If you want to go to the core of the argument then please don't repeat yourself and try to say the logic, not the occurrences in UT, as to why you believe what you do. I will then tell you why I find clear that that's not correct at all.

Papyrus doesn't kill you at all. The screen fades to black and you pop up in his cage thing. Your literally confirming that you haven't played/watched Undertale recently enough to argue this at this point.

Efi, mate, if you don't even know Papyrus's fight fades to black after you lose to him, why should I, or anyone else, trust that what your saying on the verse is correct? Undertale is chocked full of game mechanics and multiple non-special characters break them, to say Sans is special unironically is honestly where I draw the line, so I'm gonna give you this(A full playthrough of Undertale), and I'm gonna tell you to please watch it and come back to kick my bony ass with refreshed memory and good ass arguments, okay?

 

[Eficiente]

Ok, I misremembered that. The jumps from that mistake are pretty absurd though:

Your literally confirming that you haven't played/watched Undertale recently enough to argue this at this point.

I remember the game pretty well, I misremembered one event that is optional to be seen when completing the game in all routes and looking up things about it, that has no basis to claim that it was "literally confirming that haven't played/watched Undertale recently", that's a nonsensical conclusion because it doesn't make sense, you lack the information needed to conclude that. You just felt like you could dig into that mistake, because it is a mistake from my part, and so the wrong approach you have to this made you overblow it as you believe all your comment to be correct w/o figuring out it's an obvious conjecture.

Efi, mate, if you don't even know Papyrus's fight fades to black after you lose to him, why should I, or anyone else, trust that what your saying on the verse is correct?

This is ludicrous, knowing about the verse doesn't have that fight as its chapter 1 with everything else followed afterwards. I don't think anyone else would make such conclusions, but I can see some people buying a narrative like that w/o needing to bet for it or anything hard, it's playing on easy mode.

Undertale is chocked full of game mechanics and multiple non-special characters break them

Correct, I didn't claim otherwise.

to say Sans is special unironically is honestly where I draw the line

You don't argue otherwise, Sans is special in what he does.

so I'm gonna give you this(A full playthrough of Undertale), and I'm gonna tell you to please watch it and come back to kick my bony ass with refreshed memory and good ass arguments, okay?

That's pretty considered all things considered, but again it comes from a conjecture that's very easy to see. Please do reply to the rest of my other comment.

 

[Comiphorous]

Least controversial Undertale CRT:

 

[DaReaperMan]

Sure, now that your memory is refreshed at least a little

No, you just made up as a rule that I need to "tackle Undertale as a whole", with no logic behind it. Yes, a lot of things that are or aren't game mechanics happen, there is nothing to it that matters to this. Any 1 game mechanic that limits things is an isolated occurrence, out of all of them, that many times things that are or aren't game mechanics happen doesn't add less value to any 1 game mechanic not being a game mechanic, you made that up.

Many things about the game are special, what Sans does is special and thus you can't claim other characters can do the same. The Game mechanics are very loose, that's correct to say, the issue is that you don't follow logic at all to deal with it, there is just 1 thing you want and everything else accommodates to makes sense of it. The 4th wall exists, claiming it doesn't is nonsense, you don't know what you're talking about, if it didn't exist every character could do anything in that sense. At the end you repeat yourself.

When a game has basically it's entire system forged on the cold Anvil of game mechanics, yes, yes you do.

First of all, strawmanning I said "The 4th wall doesn't exist in regards to game mechanics" not just "The 4th wall doesn't exist", I'd say that for something like Chowder or Deadpool, not UT... AAAAAANYWAYS UT throwing it's system out the window isn't uncommon for a named character to do, while yes, some form of normality has to be in place, but the fact the preminary boss of one route and the final bosses of two other routes as well as the boss of Snowdim certainly sets the stage for named characters throwing the basic mechanics out.

Ok, I misremembered that. The jumps from that mistake are pretty absurd though:

I remember the game pretty well, I misremembered one event that is optional to be seen when completing the game in all routes and looking up things about it, that has no basis to claim that it was "literally confirming that haven't played/watched Undertale recently", that's a nonsensical conclusion because it doesn't make sense, you lack the information needed to conclude that. You just felt like you could dig into that mistake, because it is a mistake from my part, and so the wrong approach you have to this made you overblow it as you believe all your comment to be correct w/o figuring out it's an obvious conjecture. This is ludicrous, knowing about the verse doesn't have that fight as its chapter 1 with everything else followed afterwards. I don't think anyone else would make such conclusions, but I can see some people buying a narrative like that w/o needing to bet for it or anything hard, it's playing on easy mode.

Listen I've barely touched Undertale(Let alone the Papyrus fight) within the past 6 months and I know that, in fact, it's why I am open to having my ass kicked and implied you probably would after refreshing your memory cause you'd have fresh events while I usually need to look shit up to make sure the nonsense I'm sputtering out is actually correct

 

[Lord_JJJ]

I agree with damage reduction and 4th wall breaking. Natural on Social Influence

 

[ShionAH]

Ok, I misremembered that. The jumps from that mistake are pretty absurd though:



I remember the game pretty well, I misremembered one event that is optional to be seen when completing the game in all routes and looking up things about it, that has no basis to claim that it was "literally confirming that haven't played/watched Undertale recently", that's a nonsensical conclusion because it doesn't make sense, you lack the information needed to conclude that. You just felt like you could dig into that mistake, because it is a mistake from my part, and so the wrong approach you have to this made you overblow it as you believe all your comment to be correct w/o figuring out it's an obvious conjecture.



This is ludicrous, knowing about the verse doesn't have that fight as its chapter 1 with everything else followed afterwards. I don't think anyone else would make such conclusions, but I can see some people buying a narrative like that w/o needing to bet for it or anything hard, it's playing on easy mode.



Correct, I didn't claim otherwise.



You don't argue otherwise, Sans is special in what he does.



That's pretty considered all things considered, but again it comes from a conjecture that's very easy to see. Please do reply to the rest of my other comment.

So whats your proposal with the CRT entirely?

 

[Comiphorous]

Going off nothing BUT the social influencing page, Sans convincing frisk, a now mass murderer, to stop fighting is social influencing. going into details like 'they could have been curious just to see everything' doesn't seem to be the case as sans' dialogue proceeding after sparing him seems to imply frisk was genuine about it.

agree with social influencing. whether or not sans' social influencing affected the anomaly isn't relevant to whether his social influencing affected FRISK.

 

[ShionAH]

Going off nothing BUT the social influencing page, Sans convincing frisk, a now mass murderer, to stop fighting is social influencing. going into details like 'they could have been curious just to see everything' doesn't seem to be the case as sans' dialogue proceeding after sparing him seems to imply frisk was genuine about it.

I feel like sans wouldn't do his talk and dialogue if frisk wasn't genuine he would be more like "That was not genuine at all. **** you" Kills the player

 

[Comiphorous]

I feel like sans wouldn't do his talk and dialogue if frisk wasn't genuine he would be more like "That was not genuine at all. **** you" Kills the player

"you're sparing me?
finally.
buddy. pal.
i know how hard it must be...
to make that choice.
to go back on everything you've worked up to.
i want you to know... i won't let it go to waste.
...
c'mere, pal."

sans did not see their expression as dishonest or doing it for the sake of it, coming back AFTER sans does this seems to support this even more, as frisk is visibly angry about what happened, which would only be the case if Frisk was actually fooled.

 

[ShionAH]

"you're sparing me?
finally.
buddy. pal.
i know how hard it must be...
to make that choice.
to go back on everything you've worked up to.
i want you to know... i won't let it go to waste.
...
c'mere, pal."

sans did not see their expression as dishonest or doing it for the sake of it, coming back AFTER sans does this seems to support this even more, as frisk is visibly ANGRY about what happened. Frisk was completely fooled by sans' words.

Yes I agree with you lol
Did I write the comment wrong

 

[Comiphorous]

Yes I agree with you lol
Did I write the comment wrong

just throwing it out there incase anyone else was skeptical about his social influencing.

 

[ShionAH]

bump

 

[Shmooply]

Second scan:

Yeah I don't agree with this based on reasons other people already brought up. Not all of Sans' abilities can insta-kill the protagonist, and that seems to be a weakness from his own abilities rather than some innate ability Frisk has, considering the KARMA thing can't kill you when you're at 1 HP either.

Also Social Influencing for sans

Neutral on this.

4th wall breaking for sans

Genuinely surprised this isn't on his profile already, agreed.

 

[ShionAH]

Yeah I don't agree with this based on reasons other people already brought up. Not all of Sans' abilities can insta-kill the protagonist, and that seems to be a weakness from his own abilities rather than some innate ability Frisk has, considering the KARMA thing can't kill you when you're at 1 HP either

Then what about the asriel scan

 

[Shmooply]

That's fine, I guess.

 

[ShionAH]

That's fine, I guess.

Alright. No mods agree here only users lmao

 

[Eficiente]

Sure, now that your memory is refreshed at least a little

You don't answer for your conjecture you sort of act in line with it in how you move on.

When a game has basically it's entire system forged on the cold Anvil of game mechanics, yes, yes you do.

"The cold Anvil of game mechanics" is needlessly grandiose, which is put in the belief that as I stated before is just dogmatism. Let's see how you back this up.

First of all, strawmanning I said "The 4th wall doesn't exist in regards to game mechanics" not just "The 4th wall doesn't exist"

I meant what you said, hence I said "could do anything in that sense".

I'd say that for something like Chowder or Deadpool, not UT...

Idk what does that even mean as the 4th wall exist for their verses. It's a bit that doesn't matter as you move on from it but you don't even up saying why it was strawmanning at all, you just quoted something you said to something incomplete I said and said it wasn't the same.

AAAAAANYWAYS UT throwing it's system out the window

Pause there; no, it doesn't, a number of characters can do certain things, which =/= the whole system is thrown out of window. Again it's a dogmatic belief you have that you can't back up with logic.

UT throwing it's system out the window isn't uncommon for a named character to do, while yes, some form of normality has to be in place

That's nonsense, you didn't get to have only "some form of normality" by the informaton so far of many character doing special things, the fact remains that those characters can do special things.

, but the fact the preminary boss of one route and the final bosses of two other routes as well as the boss of Snowdim certainly sets the stage for named characters throwing the basic mechanics out.

No you made it up that since other characters can ignore mechanics in some limited way then other characters that aren't the same can do the same in part via the value of being named characters. It's nonsense as nothing makes one thing follow the other, you just say that it "sets the stage" for it because you believe this, not because it makes sense, since it's made up nonsense you can break it down.

Listen I've barely touched Undertale(Let alone the Papyrus fight) within the past 6 months and I know that, in fact, it's why I am open to having my ass kicked and implied you probably would after refreshing your memory cause you'd have fresh events while I usually need to look shit up to make sure the nonsense I'm sputtering out is actually correct

Idk what this is.

 

[ShionAH]

Y

whats your answer to crt in general? also bump

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Frisk needs a DR ability with determination.

First scan:



Second scan:




Thats pretty much it. Soul INV and Body INV for frisk lets go.

Also Social Influencing for sans




4th wall breaking for sans





Damage Reduction

Agree: @Comiphorous @Sans2345 @Overlord_THE_END @Lynieryz @Da3ggman @TheKingStrategist13 @thetechmaster36 @DaReaperMan @Lord_JJJ
Disagree:
Neutral:

Social I.
Agree: @Comiphorous @Sans2345 @Lynieryz @thetechmaster36
Disagree:
Neutral: @Overlord_THE_END @TheKingStrategist13 @DaReaperMan @Lord_JJJ


4th Wall
Agree: @Overlord_THE_END @Lynieryz @thetechmaster36 @Lord_JJJ
Disagree:
Neutral: @Comiphorous @Sans2345 @DaReaperMan

Neutral on DR and SI and agree with 4th Wall Breaking.

 

[ShionAH]

Neutral on DR and SI and agree with 4th Wall Breaking.

Thank you TheMonkeMan. Very

 

[Lord_JJJ]

I change my opinion on Social Influence to agree after the more arguments that were given to it above

 

[ShionAH]

I change my opinion on Social Influence to agree after the more arguments that were given to it above

Done

 

[Psychomaster35]

I agree with everything here