Frisk Damage Reduction and Sans SI and 4th wall awareness, breaking.

[ShionAH]

Frisk needs a DR ability with determination.

First scan:



Second scan:




Thats pretty much it. Soul INV and Body INV for frisk lets go.

Also Social Influencing for sans




4th wall breaking for sans





Damage Reduction

Agree: @Comiphorous @Sans2345 @Overlord_THE_END @Lynieryz @Da3ggman @TheKingStrategist13 @thetechmaster36 @DaReaperMan @Lord_JJJ @Psychomaster35 @Lonkitt @Theglassman12
Disagree:
Neutral: @TheMonkeMan

Social I.
Agree: @Comiphorous @Sans2345 @Lynieryz @thetechmaster36 @Lord_JJJ @Psychomaster35 @Lonkitt @Theglassman12
Disagree:
Neutral: @TheMonkeMan @Overlord_THE_END @TheKingStrategist13 @DaReaperMan


4th Wall
Agree: @Overlord_THE_END @Lynieryz @thetechmaster36 @Lord_JJJ @TheMonkeMan @Psychomaster35 @Lonkitt @Theglassman12
Disagree:
Neutral: @Comiphorous @Sans2345 @DaReaperMan

 

[Comiphorous]

Honestly based. I agree with invulnerability and social influencing but idk about 4th wall break. Keep me neutral on that.

 

[ShionAH]

Honestly based. I agree with invulnerability and social influencing but idk about 4th wall break. Keep me neutral on that.

Is looking at the player not enough?

 

[Da3ggman]

Completely disagree on Invulnerability. In the first scan, Frisk is straight up taking damage, just a reduced amount due to their determination. In the second scan, it's just Sans getting tired and being unable to damage you anymore, since nothings suggests that Frisk is getting more determined in that moment.

 

[ShionAH]

Completely disagree on Invulnerability. In the first scan, Frisk is straight up taking damage, just a reduced amount due to their determination4

They are taking damage but they are not taking the killing blow no matter what. Idk what that would qualify as expect for INV.

. In the second scan, it's just Sans getting tired and being unable to damage you anymore, since nothings suggests that Frisk is getting more determined in that moment.

Wrong. Even if you get into that attack with 1 HP sans wont be able to kill you. No matter what happens you cannot die

 

[Sans2345]

Agree with social influencing and invulnerability, kinda neutral on 4th wall awareness.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

1st seems more like damage reduction, mayyyybe immortality if you want to stretch it. The second attack is consistent with any other Time Sans uses his telekinesis- It never causes damage to Frisk directly if I recall correctly. So, it seems more like the move itself just doesn't deal great amounts of damage.

Social Influencing is alright though. Frisk/Chara at this point is proven to be a cold killing genocidal machine, so for Sans to convince them to give up on it is impressive... Though, I can see one counter argument being that, much like Flowey, this is a instance of the character simply wanting to see everything they can, knowing they can go back anyways and still kill Sans.

Neutral to 4th Wall Awareness.

 

[ShionAH]

1st seems more like damage reduction, mayyyybe immortality if you want to stretch it. The second attack is consistent with any other Time Sans uses his telekinesis- It never causes damage to Frisk directly if I recall correctly. So, it seems more like the move itself just doesn't deal great amounts of damage.

Actually the last TK does do damage 1 at a time. Thats why sans is 9-A, frisk survives it even if they only have 1 hp when they should die

Social Influencing is alright though. Frisk/Chara at this point is proven to be a cold killing genocidal machine, so for Sans to convince them to give up on it is impressive... Though, I can see one counter argument being that, much like Flowey, this is a instance of the character simply wanting to see everything they can, knowing they can go back anyways and still kill Sans.

Maybe.

Neutral to 4th Wall Awareness.

I see.

 

[ShionAH]

Would sans also get resistance to fear manipulation? Frisk in genocide was crazy scary to the point they can make blind dogs shake in fear, Undyne and Sans seems to be brave enough to ignore it sans kinda even makes fun of us lol

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

All to say to this thread.
I agree to Invunerability and 4th wall awareness. But neutral on Social Influencing, it's a one off things so I'm not sure if it's a consistent trait of Sans or simply Frisk get touched by Sans attempt and get guilt tripped to stop.

 

[ShionAH]

I'm not sure if it's a consistent trait of Sans or simply Frisk get touched by Sans attempt and get guilt tripped to stop.

I mean changing a genocidal maniac to spare you just by your words is pretty good feat.

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

I mean changing a genocidal maniac to spare you just by your words is pretty good feat.

That's true.
I guess let's chalk it to the staff and hear their opinoin. In any case, this is a concise and straight forward revision, good job.

 

[Da3ggman]

They are taking damage but they are not taking the killing blow no matter what. Idk what that would qualify as expect for INV.

Well it wouldn't count as Invulnerability, since they are visibly taking damage.

Wrong. Even if you get into that attack with 1 HP sans wont be able to kill you. No matter what happens you cannot die

In that case it seems like this is PIS, because why would Frisk get more determined in that specific moment and not literally any other moment of the fight?

 

[ShionAH]

Well it wouldn't count as Invulnerability, since they are visibly taking damage.

They dont die thought. You can just argue it activates near death

In that case it seems like this is PIS, because why would Frisk get more determined in that specific moment and not literally any other moment of the fight?

We dont know if its with DT tbh. I just assumed that since basically same happened with asriel, I think the fight is supposed to be where at first sans is more determined then us but at the end our DT surprasses his DT and even his attacks

 

[Da3ggman]

They dont die thought. You can just argue it activates near death

Bruh. If their taking damage, then Frisk isn't invulnerable to the attack. This would just be an extreme case of damage reduction.

We dont know if its with DT tbh. I just assumed that since basically same happened with asriel, I think the fight is supposed to be where at first sans is more determined then us but at the end our DT surprasses his DT and even his attacks

If you don't know and are just making assumptions, why do you have it in you CRT?

 

[ShionAH]

Bruh. If their taking damage, then Frisk isn't invulnerable to the attack. This would just be an extreme case of damage reduction.

Extreme case of damage reduction which doesnt allow frisk to die no matter damage. Makes no sense its either INV or something else

If you don't know and are just making assumptions, why do you have it in you CRT?

So people can argue about it-? Doesnt matter. In the first clip frisk doesnt die with DT no matter the damage and in rhe second one sans no matter how much he tries cannot kill frisk. “Passive INV activates near death” makes sense to me.

 

[Lynieryz]

I agree with everything FRA

If anyone is interested: https://vsbattles.com/threads/undertale-discussion-thread.149700/

 

[Da3ggman]

Extreme case of damage reduction which doesnt allow frisk to die no matter damage. Makes no sense its either INV or something else

Yeah, but he's still taking damage. For Christs sake, I don't know what it would fit, but it isn't invulnerability. The page says "Invulnerability is the power to be immune to conventional harm." He's not immune to the harm being done unto him, thus he's not invulnerable.

So people can argue about it-? Doesnt matter. In the first clip frisk doesnt die with DT no matter the damage and in rhe second one sans no matter how much he tries cannot kill frisk. “Passive INV activates near death” makes sense to me.

BUT WHY DOESNT HE DO IT AT ANY OTHER TIME. That's my problem here; he dies so many times in the Sans fight, and yet be doesn't become "invulnerable". He's near death at those times, so why wouldn't he?

 

[thetechmaster36]

Extreme case of damage reduction which doesnt allow frisk to die no matter damage. Makes no sense its either INV or something else

That's not how Invulnerability works; you either take damage with invulnerability or you don't. Frisk taking damage inherently debunks the idea of it being invulnerability. This is just really good damage reduction with insane determination.

in rhe second one sans no matter how much he tries cannot kill frisk.

Frisk also takes damage from Sans slamming them around (though it's only one damage) until they get to or are at 1 HP, and then it stop. Them being hurt by it before getting to 1 HP also debunks invulnerability. Plus, you could argue that Sans not being able to kill Frisk is simply to make the end part of the fight more passable and less of a need to have as much HP as possible.

 

[ShionAH]

Yeah, but he's still taking damage. For Christs sake, I don't know what it would fit, but it isn't invulnerability. The page says "Invulnerability is the power to be immune to conventional harm." He's not immune to the harm being done unto him, thus he's not invulnerable.

Then tf is it? It seems to be just a Inv that is uses when near death

BUT WHY DOESNT HE DO IT AT ANY OTHER TIME. That's my problem here; he dies so many times in the Sans fight, and yet be doesn't become "invulnerable". He's near death at those times, so why wouldn't he?

A real lore answer? They probably dnt have enough DT
A game answer? It would break the game

 

[ShionAH]

That's not how Invulnerability works; you either take damage with invulnerability or you don't. Frisk taking damage inherently debunks the idea of it being invulnerability. This is just really good damage reduction with insane determination.

Frisk also takes damage from Sans slamming them around (though it's only one damage) until they get to or are at 1 HP, and then it stop. Them being hurt by it before getting to 1 HP also debunks invulnerability. Plus, you could argue that Sans not being able to kill Frisk is simply to make the end part of the fight more passable and less of a need to have as much HP as possible.

So frisk gets Insane damage reduction even when sans fight proves its INV. If you enter that cutscene with 1 HP you dont take danage

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

So frisk gets Insane damage reduction even when sans fight proves its INV. If you enter that cutscene with 1 HP you dont take danage

But if you enter it with more than one you do according to what is being said here. That's not invulnerability.

 

[ShionAH]

But if you enter it with more than one you do according to what is being said here. That's not invulnerability.

Thats why I said it makes more sense for it to be a INV that activates near death. Like 1HP for example

 

[Da3ggman]

Then tf is it? It seems to be just a Inv that is uses when near death

I don't know, but their still taking damage, so its not invulnerability. The ability to not die from an attack is different from not taking any damage at all.

A real lore answer? They probably dnt have enough DT

Why would they have more determination at that point than any other moment in the fight?

 

[thetechmaster36]

Sans' case is weird because he's doing damage to you before you get to 1 HP; even if you're at like 2 HP without KARMA it still happens.

But in Asriel's case, Frisk is VERY CLEARLY being harmed as evident by their HP getting smaller and smaller. You know what that isn't? Invulnerability. That just means it's really good damage reduction.

You cannot claim invulnerability from one instance and apply it to the other when what we are shown INHERENTLY DEBUNKS that claim.

 

[ShionAH]

Why would they have more determination at that point than any other moment in the fight?

The Game wouldnt exist.

Sans' case is weird because he's doing damage to you before you get to 1 HP; even if you're at like 2 HP without KARMA it still happens.

But in Asriel's case, Frisk is VERY CLEARLY being harmed as evident by their HP getting smaller and smaller. You know what that isn't? Invulnerability. That just means it's really good damage reduction.

You cannot claim invulnerability from one instance and apply it to the other when what we are shown INHERENTLY DEBUNKS that claim.

Or maybe asriel is able to overcome this because he is 2-B while sans is 9-A
Plus in other fights frisk has inviciblity franes where they DONT take damage after they get hit another evidence of a INV ability.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Thats why I said it makes more sense for it to be a INV that activates near death. Like 1HP for example

Considering that A, that's a one time instance of this, B, that this doesn't correlate with how INV normally works, and C, Sans can still kill you through other means in the fight, I doubt this can really apply as Invulnerability.

 

[ShionAH]

So do you guys agree on Damage Reduction? Would INV work because of the Invicibility frames

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

I can agree on Damage Reduction w/ Determination, seeing as it's explicit that the Asriel Fight was one of the times Frisk was most Determined.

 

[Da3ggman]

Yeah, I'm down for Damage reduction

 

[ShionAH]

Then Damage Reduction it is!

Would the invicibilty frames give possible INV?

 

[thetechmaster36]

Or maybe asriel is able to overcome this because he is 2-B while sans is 9-A

Or maybe what you're claiming is simply false and there is no invulnerability to begin with.

Tiering regularly doesn't matter in regards to invulnerability unless the invulnerable character in question has 3D durability, whilst the opponent has 4D AP. But uhhh

up to Low Multiverse level, possibly Multiverse level with Peak Determination (Kept up with and took many hits from Asriel and even survived one of his strongest attacks)

Oops.

 

[ShionAH]

Or maybe what you're claiming is simply false and there is no invulnerability to begin with.

Tiering regularly doesn't matter in regards to invulnerability unless the invulnerable character in question has 3D durability, whilst the opponent has 4D AP. But uhhh

Oops.

Alright alright do you agree with the rest and stuff? Damage Reduction etc.

 

[thetechmaster36]

Yeah that stuff is fine, just change Invulnerability to Damage Reduction and that's fine w/ me

 

[ShionAH]

Yeah that stuff is fine, just change Invulnerability to Damage Reduction and that's fine w/ me

Done

 

[Sans2345]

Would sans also get resistance to fear manipulation? Frisk in genocide was crazy scary to the point they can make blind dogs shake in fear, Undyne and Sans seems to be brave enough to ignore it sans kinda even makes fun of us lol

Yeah that makes sense, those are the only characters that are not scared of a genocide Frisk that even caused Flowey to feel scared when he was a souless flower that "couldn't feel fear".

 

[Sans2345]

Also, his 4th wall awareness might be minor or limited, as he rarely interacts with the viewer, sure you could count the Dirty Hacker ending as canon, but i believe it's just gameplay mechanics at best.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I'm neutral on SI and 4th wall, I agree with invul/damage reduction

 

[ShionAH]

I'm neutral on SI and 4th wall

Can I learn why?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Can I learn why?

Aside from the fact I don't care... mostly because SI is debatable and 4th Wall can be a little eh