Final Fantasy Discussion Thread

[G33kedzinx]

And sephiroth shows him countless other worlds

How ? He specifically says “multitude” not countless and then shows only 5-10 other realities and Unlike countless multitude means the number can be counted and measured.

 

[Dalesean027]

How ? He specifically says “multitude” not countless and then shows only 5-10 other realities and Unlike countless multitude means the number can be counted and measured.

Sephiroth: "When he boundaries of Fate are breached, new worlds are born. The planet encompasses a multitude of worlds ever unfolding. Some quickly perish...while others endure. Yet even the most resilient worlds are doomed to fade."

Read and watch

 

[Theglassman12]

@G33kedzinx you do realize countless means a large number that’s really hard to count all the way there right? A billion or a trillion can be measured, that doesn’t mean it’s not countless, especially when counting all the way there will have folks lose track and it becomes too big to count.

 

[G33kedzinx]

Read and watch

Sephiroth explicitly says multitude worlds which means at most means vast not countless or infinite and ever unfolding does not immediately mean countless worlds. Within 7’s context he likely meant “ever unfolding” as ongoing continuous change, evolution, and discovery of a multitude or finite amount of worlds/realities.

 

[G33kedzinx]

you do realize countless means a large number that’s really hard to count all the way there right? A billion or a trillion can be measured, that doesn’t mean it’s not countless, especially when counting all the way there will have folks lose track and it becomes too big to count.

I know but the dictionary definition of multiple means identifiable quantity and that was the word Sephiroth used.

 

[TartaChocholate]

@G33kedzinx : Maybe worth checking the Japanese version and see what expression Sephiroth says there. Perhaps it's less vague about it. I recall when checking the Japanese script that English ocassionaly tried to sound cool and grandiose and made very straightforward lines sound different.

Interestingly, this revelation ties up with random statements found across the compilation (the Universe of Death/Creation mentioned in the Remake artbook, stories being born as possibilities from the Lifestream mentioned in Ever Crisis, everything moving according the Planet's will mentioned by Bugenhagen all the way back in Before Crisis in 2003)

@Chariot190 @Dalesean027 : Hmmm... I see your point. How do we handle the consistency in this scenario, though? Even the Summon scaling is considerably above the cast usual showings. Even by Advent Children, if you consider the Supernova an outlier, the most you get is tier 8 and maybe ocassional tier 7. I remember it was mentioned that using high end caps was acceptable given how bad antifeats could get in RPGs, reason why we have tier jumps like from High 6-A to 4-A to 2-A. Which makes me think, the original had some Tier 5 feats, a couple of tier 4 and a single tier 3 feat, but Remake and Rebirth seem to be pretty tame in that regard.

@Glass: Ivalice has some pretty busted stuff, but it relies on whether their scaling to Gilgamesh is valid. By themselves Ultima has a 5-A feat I think and Zodiark one that seems to be 4-A and could be interpreted as Low 2-C at most, both in XII. One thing that is consistent is that both XII and Tactics go out of their way to insist that the Lucavi are beyond human comprehension and with power that is incomprehensible, as in, they are meant to be all mighty and stuff.

 

[Dalesean027]

Sephiroth explicitly says multitude worlds which means at most means vast not countless or infinite and ever unfolding does not immediately mean countless worlds. Within 7’s context he likely meant “ever unfolding” as ongoing continuous change, evolution, and discovery of a multitude or finite amount of worlds/realities.

I know but the dictionary definition of multiple means identifiable quantity and that was the word Sephiroth used.

The planet encompasses a multitude of worlds ever unfolding

A multitude of worlds EVER UNFOLDING

Not ever until 5 worlds or 10, ever unfolding meaning continously without stopping. Ya think the developer maybe woulda have a number or stated it differently if they meant some lesser number but they specific described it as "a multitude ever unfolding" clearly showing its not stopping at some certain random finite amount, to me personally a multitude of worlds ever unfolding sounds a lot like countless worlds

 

[Theglassman12]

@G33kedzinx are you gonna keep ignoring the “ever unfolding” part he’s using in the same sentence? Because it means it expands on and on with seemingly no end.

@TartaChocholate oh… you don’t know of that statement huh?

 

[Chariot190]

Hmmm... I see your point. How do we handle the consistency in this scenario, though? Even the Summon scaling is considerably above the cast usual showings. Even by Advent Children, if you consider the Supernova an outlier, the most you get is tier 8 and maybe ocassional tier 7.

Summon scaling is fine at face value imo, the fact it's a bunch of summons with feats like that, gives way more credence, like Knights of the Round with the funny 4-A/3-B, and Supernova/Meteor, well that's like the whole plot of the game, it'd be dumb to ignore the literal mcguffin feat.

Note, it isn't the existence of lower feats that's an issue, take Goku, bro is like 99% 8-B to 7-C feats, but they're usually just collateral, casual, or whatever, they don't act as a cap. It's only an issue if said feats are implicated to be an upper limit.

Though I will say, summon scaling is kinda odd in the case of FF7R (note the R) due to Chadley and how they work from a lore pov, but at the same time, Whispers cut out the issue and make Bahamut scaling feasible for the end game either way. He made Cosmo Canyon iirc so that might be a good calc to do.

I remember it was mentioned that using high end caps was acceptable given how bad antifeats could get in RPGs, reason why we have tier jumps like from High 6-A to 4-A to 2-A.

Whoever said that was full of it, whether it's an RPG or a comic, there still has to be some semblance of common sense, the medium definitely does affect it to a degree (Like nobody is gonna say Samus ain't 9-B because the walls aren't destructible), but in no world do we ignore like 80 anti-feats for one big feat because of genre.
The majority of the jumps also get handwaved because there's the obligatory "oh they got a power boost and oops game ended", or some variant of, effectively creating a disconnect to past anti-feats. FF7R inversely has the issue of having low-end stuff, after the good shit, making the "well all the low-end stuff happened before so it don't count because they got stronger", thing isn't as straightforward.

Which makes me think, the original had some Tier 5 feats, a couple of tier 4 and a single tier 3 feat, but Remake and Rebirth seem to be pretty tame in that regard.

Og is fine except Tifa's LS calc, that's ******* stupid, especially with the funny dimension summon lore which feels like a deliberately tacked-on thing just so they can juice the cast up, like they obviously want cosmic high end shit. It's just, specifically, Remake atm is chocked full of caps, and even summon scaling is complicated compared to og. And slap a literal 2 infinity jump above what evidently ain't bit feats, but some hard-ass struggle feats, eh....

Atm I'd say scaling to Gil is an outlier, but that's just me, I doubt I'll even remember in a week.

 

[Theglassman12]

FF7R inversely has the issue of having low-end stuff, after the good shit, making the "well all the low-end stuff happened before so it don't count because they got stronger", thing isn't as straightforward

I know Cyber argued that the willpower alone allows the characters to reach insane levels of power, and with a weak will it makes them weaker iirc. It was used to address some of the anti feats like Zack’s death and whatnot, though I’m not sure how much this carries over to rebirth since I know the bare minimum.

 

[G33kedzinx]

Perhaps it's less vague about it. I recall when checking the Japanese script that English ocassionaly tried to sound cool and grandiose and made very straightforward lines sound different.

Yeah perhaps it is mistranslation

 

[G33kedzinx]

to me personally a multitude of worlds ever unfolding sounds a lot like countless worlds

Or the “ever unfolding” was used to clarify that the multiple worlds are uni+

 

[G33kedzinx]

are you gonna keep ignoring the “ever unfolding” part he’s using in the same sentence?

Ever unfolding doesn’t necessarily mean countless worlds though

 

[Theglassman12]

It means it expands constantly, which is the same as countless as it becomes too big you can’t count it anymore.

 

[TartaChocholate]

@TartaChocholate oh… you don’t know of that statement huh?

Oooooh, what am I missing?

Summon scaling is fine at face value imo, the fact it's a bunch of summons with feats like that, gives way more credence, like Knights of the Round with the funny 4-A/3-B, and Supernova/Meteor, well that's like the whole plot of the game, it'd be dumb to ignore the literal mcguffin feat.

Note, it isn't the existence of lower feats that's an issue, take Goku, bro is like 99% 8-B to 7-C feats, but they're usually just collateral, casual, or whatever, they don't act as a cap. It's only an issue if said feats are implicated to be an upper limit.

Though I will say, summon scaling is kinda odd in the case of FF7R (note the R) due to Chadley and how they work from a lore pov, but at the same time, Whispers cut out the issue and make Bahamut scaling feasible for the end game either way. He made Cosmo Canyon iirc so that might be a good calc to do.

So it's not the amount of low end feats, rather than how it relates to high ends. Meanwhile, high ends aren't enough with isolated cases, but it's a different story if they have a few backing each other up, correct? Especially if they don't contradict each other in some way; for example, a dude tanks a cannon ball, but all following chapters treat regular guns as life treatening. But it would be argueably different if guns are life threatening, but the dude has tanked a cannonball, survived a building destroying explosion, no selled a wrecking ball and blocked a bazooka rocket.

I'm guessing is that the old school FFs had little in the way of visual feats in the games, so it was hard to find stuff either for scaling or contradicting what you actually found. Not so much the case for the much more cinematic and actionized modern games. At least the lore seems to be consistent with the summons fought, helps that the Crisis Core stuff remains the same. Shiva also froze and created the Northern Continent, which also helps.

The majority of the jumps also get handwaved because there's the obligatory "oh they got a power boost and oops game ended", or some variant of, effectively creating a disconnect to past anti-feats. FF7R inversely has the issue of having low-end stuff, after the good shit, making the "well all the low-end stuff happened before so it don't count because they got stronger", thing isn't as straightforward.

To be fair, endgame scaling taking big leaps is kind of a necessary evil in games in general, otherwise how to explain that this bunch of country bumpkins managed to defeat the planet wrecker and stop his planet wrecking wave or, in usual JRPG fetish fashion, the local jerk god destroying all creation and assert they control their destiny. It doesn't take away from what you say that most of Remake's feats are pretty grounded, though. Would it help if by part 3 they fought more enemies of Gilgamesh's caliber?

Og is fine except Tifa's LS calc, that's ******* stupid, especially with the funny dimension summon lore which feels like a deliberately tacked-on thing just so they can juice the cast up, like they obviously want cosmic high end shit. It's just, specifically, Remake atm is chocked full of caps, and even summon scaling is complicated compared to og. And slap a literal 2 infinity jump above what evidently ain't bit feats, but some hard-ass struggle feats, eh....

Atm I'd say scaling to Gil is an outlier, but that's just me, I doubt I'll even remember in a week.

The former Class G feat?

To be fair, starry skies in itself is a rather controversial topic, not only in FF, it mostly happened that the whole scenario in VII aligned well with the standards for it =P. Though Knights of the Round is a more straighforward case, the Ultimania openly mentions it's a different dimension and that Arty destroys it with a single strike, and in the sequence you get to see a galaxy cluster and all.

Ngl, I am a bit disappointed on how they want the story to be over the top but shy away from really exaggerated stuff. I was really expecting Rebirth would give some crazy summon sequence or Sephiroth nuking something.

 

[Theglassman12]

@TartaChocholate ask me on discord and I’ll elaborate on the statement.

 

[Chariot190]

So it's not the amount of low end feats, rather than how it relates to high ends. Meanwhile, high ends aren't enough with isolated cases, but it's a different story if they have a few backing each other up, correct?

It's both. Take Batman for example , he has 4-B scaling feats, multiple times in fact, but it doesn't exactly add up with his 30,000+ showings otherwise, yea he might have drawn blood from Martian Manhunter that one time or made WW reel another or knocked Aquaman on his ass or made GL wince or etc, but that shit obviously don't add up as even though it's happened a few times, it ultimately isn't even 0.1%. And coupled with the other matter of displayed caps, effort, and struggle feats...

Both are important, it's just the existence of a low end feat doesn't inherently discredit a high end. I would say how they relate matters way more than just how many tho, numbers moreso come into play for extremely long-running verses like the aforementioned Batman.

Especially if they don't contradict each other in some way; for example, a dude tanks a cannon ball, but all following chapters treat regular guns as life treatening. But it would be argueably different if guns are life threatening, but the dude has tanked a cannonball, survived a building destroying explosion, no selled a wrecking ball and blocked a bazooka rocket.

At that point yeah, the guns can be handwaved.

I'm guessing is that the old school FFs had little in the way of visual feats in the games, so it was hard to find stuff either for scaling or contradicting what you actually found. Not so much the case for the much more cinematic and actionized modern games. At least the lore seems to be consistent with the summons fought, helps that the Crisis Core stuff remains the same. Shiva also froze and created the Northern Continent, which also helps.

Statement stuff is fine too btw. Just look at Pokemon, whole ass verse is 1 feat per 2000 statements.

To be fair, endgame scaling taking big leaps is kind of a necessary evil in games in general, otherwise how to explain that this bunch of country bumpkins managed to defeat the planet wrecker and stop his planet wrecking wave or, in usual JRPG fetish fashion, the local jerk god destroying all creation and assert they control their destiny.

Exactly, that fact alone makes the huge jump fine, who gives a shit if 30 chapter agos, two power ups and 100 levels ago bro had a few 9-A anti-feats, enough progress happened since that any jump in power won't really matter, they'd be disconnected in scaling. Even if they got an arbitrary boost five minutes before the boss, it'd be fine, as long as we can ascertain that between the sus stuff and the big stuff, some sort of amp or boost occurred.

It doesn't take away from what you say that most of Remake's feats are pretty grounded, though. Would it help if by part 3 they fought more enemies of Gilgamesh's caliber?

If they whip out another good feat and don't immediately turn around and invalidate it 5 times, yeah, the feat could be like 1-A let alone 2-A scaling, It just has to add up and not invalidate itself 10x over consistently.

Though, they're 100% gonna be 2-B/2-A at the end, it isn't even a "maybe".
I know we said nobody scales to the shit yet, but that's not completely true. Black Materia/Life Stream/Holy scale to it already, it's just nobody scales to those yet, but we know they will in 3 because
1. We're literally told what Black Materia will do to shit in FF7R^2, ******* up alt worlds is a key component
2. We know Seph is juicing up on the life stream even in this canon, they will obviously fight main body Seph come game 3
3. I guess Holy too given it's comparable to Black Materia.

It's gonna happen, just a matter of time.

The former Class G feat?

Former? Good. That shit was sus af.

To be fair, starry skies in itself is a rather controversial topic, not only in FF, it mostly happened that the whole scenario in VII aligned well with the standards for it =P. Though Knights of the Round is a more straighforward case, the Ultimania openly mentions it's a different dimension and that Arty destroys it with a single strike, and in the sequence you get to see a galaxy cluster and all.

Yeah, that's a good case of a good RPG feat. We know it's an alt dimension too explaining away the only fucky.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

I know Cyber argued that the willpower alone allows the characters to reach insane levels of power, and with a weak will it makes them weaker iirc. It was used to address some of the anti feats like Zack’s death and whatnot, though I’m not sure how much this carries over to rebirth since I know the bare minimum.

I'd assume it'd be the same, right? As far as I know, there isn't anything that indicates the mechanics of Spirit Energy are any different in the Remake timeline.

Also, wasn't there something brought up earlier from Final Fantasy XIV about all Final Fantasy characters protagonists possibly having variable strength?

 

[Theglassman12]

Unless the remake trilogy actively changes literally every single thing about how spirit energy works, I don't see why it shouldn't cross scale to the remake.

 

[TartaChocholate]

I'd assume it'd be the same, right? As far as I know, there isn't anything that indicates the mechanics of Spirit Energy are any different in the Remake timeline.

Also, wasn't there something brought up earlier from Final Fantasy XIV about all Final Fantasy characters protagonists possibly having variable strength?

Remake and Crisis Core Reunion pretty much establishes that the setting of Remake and Rebirth is the same as the original until Sephiroth's actions caused deviations to happen. Though dunno if Rebirth makes it a parallel timeline/world or something, but still it's the same rules.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Unless the remake trilogy actively changes literally every single thing about how spirit energy works, I don't see why it shouldn't cross scale to the remake.

I agree.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Remake and Crisis Core Reunion pretty much establishes that the setting of Remake and Rebirth is the same as the original until Sephiroth's actions caused deviations to happen.

That's what I thought.

Though dunno if Rebirth makes it a parallel timeline/world or something, but still it's the same rules.

Well, the director said the events of Crisis Core Reunion and the rest of the Compilation aren't canon to the Remake timeline (but that's just because they're different timelines). They clearly want people to know about the events of Crisis Core, so they probably think of them as the same setting/world.

 

[TartaChocholate]

That's what I thought.

Well, the director said the events of Crisis Core Reunion and the rest of the Compilation aren't canon to the Remake timeline (but that's just because they're different timelines). They clearly want people to know about the events of Crisis Core, so they probably think of them as the same setting/world.

Yeah, it essentially means the story will not go into the same future as the original game given how it split into a different timeline.

But, if you ask me, if Bugenhagen makes the same speech about the Spirit and the Lifestream at Cosmo Canyon then it pretty much confirms that it's the same workings.

 

[Theglassman12]

Bugenhagen

Why does this sound like something the Swedish Chef would say?

 

[TartaChocholate]

Well, Johannes Bugenhagen did bring Lutheranism to scandinavian territories...

 

[Dust_Collector]

Guys we need to upgrade Final Fantasy now, our rivals at Zelda are sitting at tier 1 and we're lagging behind we need to beat them

But, if you ask me, if Bugenhagen makes the same speech about the Spirit and the Lifestream at Cosmo Canyon then it pretty much confirms that it's the same workings.

Dunno if this really counts as a spoiler but I'll blur it anyway
Yeah he pretty much makes the same speech, although I think he expands on a few more things a bit more than he did in the original

 

[Theglassman12]

likely from Universe Level+ to Multiverse Level to High-Multiverse Level + (Reality Warped the whole world of Termina wich is stated to be their own universe, also created his own universe inside the moon and seperate Parallel Universes. Game consist of a 5 layer dimsensionality construct with 3 save files consisting with the world of Termina + The realm of Skull Kid/Majora, since we know that Skull Kid/Majora wants to destroy the whole Universe out of Revenge as shown in the alternative ending where The Player loses it isnt hard to say that he will probably destroy the whole construct out of revenge so nothing will be left + the Universe of OOT. In wich he would be in control of a completely new construct now, also MM is connected to OOT wich would result in changes in the Universe of OOT since Majora power would affect its Universe, also can harm Fierce Deity Link wich is his strongest form)

I think my brain cells just got thanos snapped trying to read this entire thing with no scans for reference.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Sooo... some stuff I've been working on in the meantime. Sephiroth and Cloud are still works in progress and need some updates, removals and cleanups here and there, Cloud is also incomplete on the last half. This is also assuming the Spiritual Energy CRT goes through.

• Sephiroth
• Cloud
• Ifrit
• Shiva
• Bahamut

I had forgotten we consider Summons the same entities through the franchise until after doing the last 3 profiles, lol.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Sooo... some stuff I've been working on in the meantime. Sephiroth and Cloud are still works in progress and need some updates, removals and cleanups here and there, Cloud is also incomplete on the last half. This is also assuming the Spiritual Energy CRT goes through.

• Sephiroth
• Cloud
• Ifrit
• Shiva
• Bahamut

I had forgotten we consider Summons the same entities through the franchise until after doing the last 3 profiles, lol.

Should Sephiroth have a key for the Remake timeline? (Also, you misspelled "Immeasurable" in Sephiroth's Lifting Strength).

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

I had forgotten we consider Summons the same entities through the franchise until after doing the last 3 profiles, lol.

Actually, about this part, I had a question for everyone. Summons all pretty much have the same abilities across the franchise, but is there any reason to cross-scale them?

I agree with it, but I know some people off-site who don't, so I was wondering why we do.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Should Sephiroth have a key for the Remake timeline? (Also, you misspelled "Immeasurable" in Sephiroth's Lifting Strength).

He should, it was done before it was known it was actually his AC self running around again. Which in hindsight was pretty obvious to be honest. I have to add all his new stuff and get rid of the note section trying to explain they are different Sephiroths since it's outdated information from what I know.

EDIT: This is a thing, right? During the Remake years it was heavily hinted Remake Sephiroth was not AC Sephiroth and even the Ultimania got into that. But I read around that Rebirth just flat out confirms it's AC Sephiroth back, is that correct? I still haven't played the game.

Yeah, my bad I tend to mispell Immeasurable a lot in english because the spanish word "Inmensurable" (my native language) keeps popping in my head.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

He should, it was done before it was known it was actually his AC self running around again. Which in hindsight was pretty obvious to be honest. I have to add all his new stuff and get rid of the note section trying to explain they are different Sephiroths since it's outdated information from what I know.

I see.

Well, from what little I know, that new key will be chock full of stuff.

Yeah, my bad I tend to mispell Immeasurable a lot in english because the spanish word "Inmensurable" (my native language) keeps popping in my head.

Don't worry, I get it. It's a pretty easy mistake to make as a native English speaker too (which I can attest to as a native English speaker).

 

[Theglassman12]

Sooo... some stuff I've been working on in the meantime. Sephiroth and Cloud are still works in progress and need some updates, removals and cleanups here and there, Cloud is also incomplete on the last half. This is also assuming the Spiritual Energy CRT goes through.

• Sephiroth
• Cloud
• Ifrit
• Shiva
• Bahamut

I had forgotten we consider Summons the same entities through the franchise until after doing the last 3 profiles, lol.

Those profiles are disgusting, how dare you give shiva and ifrit all of those abilities.... give them more.

 

[Quibster]

Peeking in here to ask

Any progress or word of Endwalker revisions? Emet needs a profile... I'd love to help out!

 

[Theglassman12]

We have a server you can join to talk to some 14 folks

 

[Quibster]

We have a server you can join to talk to some 14 folks

Feel free to convo me an inv if you wish!

 

[Hypertornado099]

What is Jenova doing here? Does she teleport the party or is she messing with Barret's mind? And is that strong gust of wind her doing?

 

[Quibster]

What is Jenova doing here? Does she teleport the party or is she messing with Barret's mind? And is that strong gust of wind her doing?

Looks like a form of BFR?

 

[Hypertornado099]

What level of healing does Cure in FF7 grant?

 

[Theglassman12]

it grants healing, duh