Final Fantasy Discussion thread IV: Elemental Fiends, assemble!!

[PaChi2]

I dont have the game, Im afraid. And I have a list of games to play before considering it. I expected more discussion tbh.

 

[ZERO7772]

I don't own a PS4 so I don't have the game either.

Yeah, weird how there is barely any discussion about the game after a week of release. We analyzed the hell out of DMC 5 when it first came out.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Finished the game just now. Was avoiding the thread to not come across spoilers, especially as the ending was being discussed on the day of release already. Gonna share my thoughts on it in a while.

Honestly, I thought the game was pretty solid, though I have mixed feelings on some stuff.

 

[PaChi2]

The most dramatic version of the song.

Omg. I love it.

 

[ZERO7772]

I still prefer the AC version....

 

[TartaChocholate]

Okay, soo... long ass post. As always. Apologies in advance:

First some thoughts on the game itself, gonna rather blunt about, but don't mean disrespect or anything to anybody.

Elephant in the Room - The Ending

They actually were hinting as far back as the first trailer and Mobius Final Fantasy, with the FFVII Crossover, that the Remake was gonna take its own spin. Honestly... I am all in for the story going in an unexpected direction. I actually think that's pretty exciting. New twists, new suprises and a new experience for us who already played the original. Taking popular what if scenarios and seeing what would happen in them is not a bad choice per se, as you can experiment new developments for the cast and such. However, I think they should not try to balance events from the original game with newer ones as that creates very tone deaf and poorly paced moments for the plot, which is an issue that happens several times in the Remake. Given they already made it clear they want to go crazy, I say okay, but fully embrace that and make everything new, take elements from the original but don't use the original events anymore. Build up from zero. Don't tie yourself anymore, take it and run the whole marathon with it. That said... Not a fan at all of how this was made in the story, the in-game reason why the Remake deviates from the original. It could have simply been with the events being unraveled to be pretty different from the original or events turning out with different outcomes as you progress, I dunno. I'll be blunt, Time Travel, Alternate Timelines, Parallel Worlds, the Primordial Origin of the Universe, the defiance of fate... that sounds grandiose and everything, but there are several issues with these tropes in FFVII and especially in Squeenix's hands: On one had, those things were never part of the original setting and the Remake never built them up aside an excuse of sorts to justify going off the rails, it's a pretty jarring shift of lore that's slapped in the player's face, and the buildup of the entire game is suddenly thrown out the window for the sake of the plot twist. Yes, the Whispers were around since the beginning, but the whole Sephy is Remaking history (TITLE DROP!) suddenly pops up and eats up the plot at the end, triviallizing the Shinra conflict. No, the original didn't do the same, while Sephiroth's presence cast a bigger shadow, Shinra was still the inmediate enemy which you were racing with to reach Sephiroth and the Promised Land, Sephiroth's presence was still vague and shrouded in mystery to not fully overshadow the current events and a prologue section of 4 hours is pretty different from a 40 hour game building, expanding and deepening the conflict with Shinra to have everything discarded at the last minute for Sephiroth threatening the universe/multiverse. Also, Squeenix argues to take the Remake in a new direction, but... all those elements I mentioned above, they have been using them a lot in their modern games, and with pretty controversial resutls: Kingdom Hearts (As much as I love this franchise, the story has gone under more and more criticism as it has gotten more convoluted and shocking for the sake of it), FFXIII, Bravely Series (Mostly the original game, though), Type-0, Parasite Eve: The 3rd Birthday (an absolutely huge example of butchering a series with a story that had no relation in tone, motives, elements with what cemented it in the first place and just went for the Time stuff because it seemed "greater"). By themselves these elements aren't bad... but I fear that Nojima, Toriyama and especially Nomura are slapping the stuff they have an appeal for in a game regardless of whether it fits or not, works or not. Being honest, I don't really trust Nomura's storytelling nowadays, not when he's alone, same for Toriyama and Nojima. Those guys with Kitase make a very powerful team, beacuse they compliment and balance out their decisions, but leave them by themselves and you get more often than not hair pulling results: I went through the whole compilation, emo Cloud and overly forced drama and teenage angst was pretty much Nojima's idea of good characterization (Advent Children, also read on The Way to a Smile and The Turks are Alright), Kitase and Toriyama were those who thought that XIII was good by sacrificing gameplay and just turning the whole thing into a borderline interactive movie and that it was alright to shove all the important background in a Glossary to read through instead of proper narrative, Toriyama was the guy who thought that turning Parasite Eve, a horror game with a mix of sci-fi and fantasy touches rooted in real New York should become about Timelines and interdimensional Eldricth Parasites and time travel retconning the series (because they wanted to reboot the series and take it into a new direction, you see), and Nomura has stated that he prioritizes shocking the players over anything, regardless if it's coherent or not and KH shows he likes to put crazy abstract stuff all over. I love KH, I really do, and you can tell that's Nomura's brain child, but I don't want him to turn FFVII into KH, to force the style he has into a work that couldn't be more different and just shove in all the tropes he has a shine for into a game that's not KH. The issue is similar to what has with the rest of the compilation: flash over substance, stuff that looks cool but falls appart by itself and that's what I am worried about here: plot points that are bigger on scale don't necessarily mean they will give a good story. Sure they seem so grandiose, so spectacular, but I insist, SQUEENIX can get pretty bad with style over substance, stuff that flashes all over but doesn't hold up which is what happened to the Compilation. That's why I am wary with Kingdom Fatasy 3rd. Especially as the way things got handled in the Remake with the new elements was incredenly messy compared to everything else they did, spoiling most of the original plot twists, eating up the current conflict built over 40 hours, putting fanservicey scenes all over the Final Battle, etc. Now, that said I'll be more than happy to eat my words if I am proven wrong with the later entries of the Remake and they actually do work these elements well and pull a good story with it. Though to be fair, I can see why they could not simply advertise from the get go that they wanted to reimagine the story. Given how the changes were a hot issue since day one, saying they were going to a new place directly would have hurt the game and its reception preemtively.

Thoughts on the Game

Aside my worries with the new plot elements in the ending... I really liked this game. As in, a lot lot. For starters, the game is frigging gorgeous. You can tell how much love and care went to create Midgar's setting and atmosphere and it truly feels alive now, with many details such as the slums you can explore, people's thoughts on the events that let you know what effects have your actions, what is happening around you, etc. Big events like the fall of the plate or the destruction of reactors now feel like are indeed massive acts with consequences, something that undestandably the original couldn't really fully convey. The gameplay is an absolute blast. A fear I usually have with Action RPGs is that fights usually become "turn the enemy into a punching bag and stagger it in an endless combo, but if you miss once it will break free graze you and kill you in a single hit". Not happening here, you really need to balance out how you play your characters and tactics. It's not as acton oriented like Kingdom Hearts, but if you want to go through stronger enemies, especially on Hard mode, you have to have a strategy prepared and pull it off properly in battle. Boss Battles are spectacular, all of them, even filler bosses are almost cathartic; they look fantastic, the atmosphere is great, the fights are flashy without being intrusive. Poignant bosses such as Reno at the Pillar or even a previously unremarkable boss like Rufus became incredibl (though while the fight itself is amazing, the context of his fight suffered a lot given how the Fate plot had already taken over, Shinra's plans had already been swept under the rug and they removed his intro speech and all dialogue) Reno and Rude in particular may be my favorite boss of the game. And not gonna lie, the final battle against Sephiroth is also incredible and ******* gorgeous. Credit has to be given where it's due, while the context may have been iffy for me, the presentation was impeccable, exciting and climatic. Music is, as you'd expect, amazing. It's a Squeenix game after all, so they never disappoint here. But they finally retrieved iconic pieces of the original game instead of just remixing Aerith's Theme, One Winged Angel and the Main Theme for the 30th time. I was pretty disappointed when Crisis Core went through the Nibelheim incident without bringing back Those Chosen By the Planet (though, to be fair, the whole event was very downplayed aside the boss fight) Glad the Turks and Rufus got their own battle themes, to put them appart from other encounters. One Winged Angel Rebirth is, as expect, amazing. Aside my gripes with the new plot elements to justify the ending, I think the writting was excellent for the most part. I mean, finally, FINALLy they moved away from the damn compilation characterizations; no more bleeding heart Cloud, no more saint Aerith, Sephiroth has a proper objective instead of just trolling Cloud, the Shinra is portrayed as an evil and amoral company instead as lovable antiheroes (looking at Reno and Rude here), Tseng is an amoral bastard again and not the heroic moral code tied bitch he became later on (Turks are Alright is his lowest point). Loved that Cloud while still quite different from the original game, was given a pretty pronounced personality. They made him an anti social, aloof jerk, but they also gave tons of moments of awkwardness and insecurity that made it clear that it's not "2edgy4u" but rather genuine slumps for him. And really loved that his relationship with Tifa got much more fleshed out. Now it can be seen Cloud values her, but his issues still make it awkward for both, yet he actually tries for her, and when he realizes Tifa is in a bind and he just brushed her off, he genuinely feels terrible about it and tries to help her for real the next time. Many complain that the chapter where Tifa introduces the side missions is filler, and to be fair it is, but it also shows how Tifa cares and goes out of her way to help Cloud, something SOLDIER boy does appreciate and value And of course they didn't cut down the silly moments of the original, something the compilation really lacked when it tried too hard to be dramatic and dark. This puts Cloud in amusing situations where his awkwardness comes in full force, makes him give comedic quips and just show him with a side that's not just stoic cool guyz. It also rescues something the original game had. The original had plenty of dramatic moments but it balanced them out with silly, kinda self referential ones, and horror themes, that were done away in other entries for full on drama, that came as tiresome, forced and just lacking impact since everything was suffering for everybody (especially Cloud). Here the changes in tone make you feel the turns for the worse. This also gives minor moments to show how characters react in little situations, not just their epic speech to bad guy destroying the world. Barret, Tifa and Aerith benefit a lot from that. Speaking of... Despite being a beloved character and promoted as the co-heroine of the game, Tifa always got the short end of the stick as Aerith got the lion share of the attention, both in story importance, her relationship with Cloud and screen time. Granted it's still like that, but they actually inspected Tifa's character more here. She's still second fiddle to Aerith in every sense (it's pretty clear the staff has a favorite >_>, but at the very least we can see how she feels about helping Avalanche, why she's there, why she doesn't want to do this or that, why she hesitates and how she and Cloud help each other, not just her having a crush on Cloud for vague reasons like in the original. I think that was an issue in the original game, Tifa would risk life and limb for Cloud, but as the Cloud's Mind segement reveals, there was little reason for it. They were never childhood friends (unlike what the compilation wants to tell you) and didn't interact that much until the main game itself when Tifa was already in love with him. Here the childhood friends is not yet established, but they have been together for a while helping each other and the game gives them several moments to bond. The original also gave them optional scenes based on relationship values, but were very shallow, especially compared to Aerith's, here they are meaningful but in a different way to Aerith's Barret L. Jackson completely steals the show, hot damn. The guy is so lively it's amazing. Given how they played up the conflict with Shinra he's given many more instances to show all the sides to him. But guess one of my favorites is how he is shown to be a real father to his boys and girls in Avalanche. Not just Marlene, obviously. Several moments of friendship talk with Tifa, comforting her when the plate fell. Tifa helping him out to look around him when he's blinded by rage. How he genuinely and steadily became BFFs with Cloud. (A minor thing, but if you finish a fight with little HP Cloud will remark "I'll do better next time" and Barret will retort "Pfeh! 1st Class my ass!", by the end-game it becomes "I'll do better next time, promise." with "Nah, it's cool man.") They also balanced out well things for the Turks. They still are villains, but the Plate Fall is clearly something they weren't happy to do. It's an inbetween with the original where they seemed to actually enjoy what they did and the compilation where it's ignored. Here Reno and Rude literally say that "It's bullshit" but orders are orders and given their line of work growing a conscience now would be hypocritical. Later on they are still trobled by it. Tseng on the other hand was just following orders, and while not really troubled by it, he was fully aware that had the Turks not done it another department would have been sent. A good compromise. Aerith got her sass and street smarts back, and it's glorious. She's still sweet and angel and all that crap, but one that was raised in the slums and it shows. Sephiroth is mostly the same as the compilation and non-canon appearances Not the unstable guy he was in the original, mostly the calm and unnerving guy he's later on But he has a porpuse again and he works for it, not just be there with flimsy reasons just to duel Cloud, and he actually does seem to need Cloud for something not just keep him around to make him miserable. And yeah, he actually won one of their fights. Finally his overwhelming superiority over SOLDIER boy actually translated in a win. Go Sephy, never, let CIS get to you. Many people disliked the Side Missions, feeling they were filler. I kinda disagree there. They maybe were rendered filler with the retcon, but that's another issue. I think they are kinda a step up from the Missions from Crisis Core, IMO They give hindsight on what's going on in Midgar and their inhabitants, as well as characterization and small moments for the party to grow a little something that piles up and makes things feel more alive They can become tedious, but they are varied on what you need to do, not just go to point A to point B and kill group of monsters. That's what hurt the missions in Crisis Core, they were way too many, the only ones that gave interesting lore were the ones in The Cave of Wonders at the end of the game and all of them were travel the same small maps and kill monsters. People are also divided on the new content (not ending related) such as the chapter with Jessie, Biggs and Wedge. I actually really liked it, because it let you get to know those three much better, care a lot more about them and was also one of the first steps that began Cloud's character development It's only filler if you compare it with the original game, but within the Remake's narrative it its well tied to the newer events. And holy frig yes, you can finally fight Summons and they actually have LORE behind them! Granted is pretty bare bones, but hey I'll take it. Maybe next entries will give more background on them. The Materia system was well balanced out IMO, or at least improved a lot from the Original Game. The concept in the original had the problem that it was excellent in paper, but in practice you didn't get to try stuff until way too late in the game and the game could be easily be beating simply by overpowering enemies, without really needing to strategize Here brutalizing bosses is impossible, you need a plan, you need to have something to fall back on be it your Weapons skills, Materia or something One last complain I have I guess... The pacing could have been better I guess Sometimes it felt the time between story beats stretched way too much. Stages last a lot, and sometimes you have to go through several each one with its own boss to make the plot move. Particularly bad is before the Plate Fall, you go through the sewers which are extended to three whole sections, then enter the Train Graveyard where they see the Turks going to the plate, you go through a whole section of it and have to enter a massive warehouse for a subplot about ghosts that hint about Aerith's power to hear the Planet, then when you finish that Cloud overhears a radio call that confirms the Plate is being dropped and you have to go through 2 sections of train graveyard again with Eligor as the boss. Then you reach the plate. In the meanwhile you kinda switch between "Ah frig the plate's gonna fall!" and "Woooow! Ghosts are magicaaal!", which is kinda funny tbh Oh, and on a side note, Leslie does find his fiancee. Later on, as seen in Kids are Alright, they are living together. Her being a Corneo girls is, understandably, a touchy subject.

VS Stuff

From a VS standpoint... I fully agree, the potential to go far here seems to be huge. Verses that deal with Timelines and Parallel Universes almost always land on Tier 2 at least. Depending on how far it goes Neo Exdeath may even get some 2-A buddies by the end. It really depends if things are covering the universe or localized to the planet, but it's unlikely thats the latter. Also pretty likely Sephy will mess with the Edge of Creation and cause Timelines to get messed up and some crazy shaeningan like that, which would be at least 2-C wouldn't it? I think we're better off giving the Whispers an Unknown rating until more info comes up and the Arbitrer and Latin Named ones a rating of "At Least" scaled to the party for their fight. Ad of now, as discussed I think it's too early to give around Tier 2 to anybody. We don't know if the Whispers control fate or simply patrol it and descriptions can get ambiguous. Similar to Sephiroth. There's not much info on what is exactly this Sephiroth; is he the one from the original compilation that went back in time? Is he from this time but gained precognition or was warned of his future? Is he a presence outside time and fate that doesn't want to be bound? We don't know for certain. Also given how easily he beat Cloud by simply trying a bit harder even after supposedly losing means there isn't really scaling to him, mostly to his displayed feats. The Meteor apparently kills you if it falls, so they can't scale to Sephy's summoning of it either. An important thing, given this is pretty much the original setting that deviated at the ending, maybe most of the stuff that was available for the original game can be applied here: mechanincs of Spirit Energy, Non-Physical Interaction and Regenerationn Negation, stuff like that. Though as event were already getting derailed in-story and needing to be re-railed by the retcon revenants, probably particular abilities should still be unique to the new profiles, especially if the character's moveset is too different, like Rufus. The lore of the Summons can be expanded a bit given now they actually have bits of background. For example, Shiva is mentioned to be the one that froze the North Pole to allow it to heal whe Jenova crashed, and though I haven't found the file, it seems that this time around it was Shiva who sealed Jenova in ice and forced her slumber. Which speaking of, given that you directly fight Shiva and how it has been stated VR Missions pose real danger for the participant, the cast can get Resistance to Absolute Zero from that. However, given you can't use Elemental linked with the Shiva Materia it seems we can't say they get it for themselves outside Summoning her. I am having a bit of trouble on figuring out how we can translate the ATB gauge outside the gameplay, especially as many Materia deal directly with it. Fortunately, a list of the most straightforward spells won't be hard. Though I don't think they will be answered, at least until the forum move, I already requested several feats to be calced in the Calculations Requests Thread. Mostly to have stuff to fall back on to. Given how action heavy the game is, not only in gameplay, finding feats is not hard. Likely we can give Aerith and Cloud Precognition, but not combat applicable as the extent of Aerith's knowledge on the future is still unclear and Cloud simply sees ocassional vague visions. I wanted to make a Galaxy Level joke as the 3rd Classes are now written as 3-C but it was lame.

 

[ZERO7772]

Gotta love how SE spent 5 years trying to come up with an excuse to why they changed the plot. I mean, if you wanna write something different, just do it! no need to shove deus ex machina to justify your changes.

Personally I didn't like Tifa's THAT much in the remake. I feel like they played up her angst too much " I like her dynamic with Cloud however. She saved his ass many time throughout the game but he also did the same for her so it's back and fourth unlike the OG where it was just Tifa picking up his **** all the time.

The surprisingly played up the Aertih romance, even hinting that Cloud is already in love with her this early in the story.

And yes, Sephiroth finally getting a W over Cloud (┬¼ÔÇ┐┬¼)

They didn't like how they turned Aerith into the leader of the group basically by the end tho.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Honestly, I commend them for the pretty ballsy move, even if I am not a fan of the method. I hope they don't chicken out on going the full way. I mean, they already spared Avalanche and Zack, so likely Aerith is getting saved as well. In itself not really a bad thing as the Remake is no longer playing by the original's themes and motifs, but they already took the big step so don't back off on other daring moves.

I can see what you mean regarding Tiff... though trust me, it's a huge step up from her On the Way to a Smile story were her angst was unbearable, and constantly kept telling her how she "hated herself" and "that pain in her heart". It does contrast with her AC characterization, oddly enough, where she kept things straing and in place for others, but in the original game we really didn't have much of her personality outside her caring and sweet side and the relationship with Cloud. I am guessing it's the in-between before she shapes up to her self we see in the movie (or at least an equivalent of)

Truth to be told, Aerith's relationship with Cloud was always played up as the more significant. Tifa essentially took over when Aerith was no longer around. But it was Aerith the one who managed to break Cloud's shell and make him to drop the facade little by little. Even if you played the relationship values to get Tifa's scenes, these were much shorter and less meaningful than Aerith's. I guess the catch in that was that it was "too good to last" with her death, but doesn't really change it. The Remake though, does give a much more meaningful and mutual relationship to Cloud and Tifa and you can see why they care so much for each other in the end, not just Tifa sticking her neck for Cloud. Of particular note is how Cloud remembers his promise, loved how after just brushing off Tifa's predicament, he remembers what they talked and comes to the realization "Holy crap, I'm an asshole!" and genuinely tries to listend and help her after that. It shows he actually cares and tries to be there for her as well.

Yeah... Sephy kept his smug smirk and his cryptic speeches, but I am bet he was screaming of joy inside at not getting Omnislashed for once.

I agree to you there to an extent. Don't mind Aerith being the leader, but it's becoming a bit too much that she does everything, she knows everything and she is the key of everything, leaving Barret, Tifa and Nanaki in nothing. Nanaki is a jarring case, as his species being supposedly ancient and close, connected to the planet as well, as well as coming from the place where all the studies of Planetology are made would make him a fine candidate for exposition and also contribute to know about the plot, but that's never been used even in the OG.

 

[PaChi2]

Inb4 ff VII crossover with other titles, making scaling wanky as hell.

2-A Cloud?

 

[TartaChocholate]

They have the perfect excuse to actually go there. Just throw in the Void and we're set. Might as well make Lavos a secret boss.

Honestly, if parallel worlds and timelines are used, and we have a primordial origin of everything of sorts, having a 2-A setting is not impossible. Depends on how crazy they want to make all things. And Toriyama is having a hand in this too, so yeah.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Final Fantasy already has several 2-A settings and everyone scales to eachother anyway, so...

Honestly yeah, 2-A cloud

 

[TartaChocholate]

@Zephyros: Well, yeah. I was mostly referring how the VII setting which was limited by being confined to the Planet now has a ticket to accompany the big boys like V, XIV and XIII which involve actual multiverses, dimensions and alternate universe mumbo jumbo in XIII's case.

 

[PaChi2]

How to link everything:

The Void

And they can add some of the XIII trilogy shenanigans like Valhalla and we are set.

 

[ZERO7772]

@TartaChocholate

Same. It may be a questionable move, but Zack is Back and he's frankly my second fav FFVII character right after Cloud so I can only be hyped no matter the outcome.

It does raise a lot of question however, what will they do with him? Make him playable, join the party? But adding Zack will make Cloud completely irrelevant as they both the the same fighting style, and Zack is FAR stronger than Cloud at this point in story. Maybe give Cloud his AC setup?

Oh yeah, on the way to smile..... Tifa was too Anxity in it, she could give Cloud a run for his money. They also added a subplot where Cloud leave Tifa sometimes and visit Aerith church "hence why he found Denzel" and Tifa have to constantly reminds him that it's "their" house and "their" family, it really feels like Tifa was the silver medal for Cloud despite everything she puts up with for him.

It literally took one move from Sephy to end the fight, it's kinda hilarious.

Yeah, she become the one giving speeches and even motivations for the team to go after Sephiroth, I mean, Tifa is there, Sephy killed her father and burned her village and she doesn't say one word about it which was weird.

 

[ZERO7772]

I think we can come up with some good feats for Sephy, although no one would scale him, however.

The cast feats are pretty inconstant, one moment Cloud can cut through buildings and jump 30 feet into the sky, the next he can't lift himself up with one arm.

the suspension of disbelief can get stupid at times. Dunno what to make of it.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Zack and Cloud kicking ass together at the same time, better yet in the same party in the same game is one of those moronic, cheesy fanfic ideas I genuinely hyperventilate at out of excitement.

Issue is that now the love triangle becomes true OTP CloudxZack vs CloudxSephy, leaving the girls in limbo OvO

Honestly, Zack is so powerful by this point that he trivializes the entire party, maybe Aerith who at most would play mission control and exposition as he breaks stuff. But this is an RPG we're talking about, scaling gets as stupid as the plots needs it to be. Or, dunno, maybe the retcon did more than save him, like Cloud wished himself to be a 1st Class to actually fight alongside Zack and Zack didn't become so powerful when not having to tackle all his problems alone, maybe Zack's injuries in the stand made him lose his top condition and still needs to recover, etc. But my money is on wonky scaling, if he joins right away in the next entry at least.

My question now is: What's gonna happen with the Buster Sword? Cloud seemingly keeps it, but the big reason why he got it is pretty much gone. Zack is not gonna let go of Angeal's gift so easily, so passing it on needs a whole new context. I personally think Cloud is just borrowing for now, and it gives a good excuse to shift weapons later on.

Tto be fair, aside using huge swords and some basics Cloud and Zack's movesets have become pretty different with time. Cloud mostly sticks to his swordsmanship and has developed a pretty aggressive and speedy style, while Zack carries more tricks and versatility while mixing up with hand to hand combat and magic via the DMW.

Yeah, I think that's one thing Remake nailed, that Cloud and Tifa's relationship while strained now seems to be mutual with actually both putting something for each other, not just Tifa. Girl needs a bit more credit for all she does, especially since now it's likely they won't kill off Aerith and it's pretty clear she's the favorite of Squeenix =V

In 2 of their 3 fights Sephiroth could end Cloud right away but didn't because the plot actually gave reasons not to: in CC his newfound megalomania was at peak point so having been wounding by this measly infantryman punk wasn't going to slip by, and in AC he had kind self obessed with Cloud to survive, so Trolling Cloud >>>>>>> Evil Plan. Difference is that now he actually tried to finish things right away according to a plan, not draw it out due to ego issues.

Gotta agree there as well, Cloud in the first reactor jumps like 10 meters and then can't jump into the barrier to get the card key into the security booth, Tifa almost killing herself falling from a second floor. >_>

Then again, scaling in JRPGs is kinda like that: first stage rescue kitty and beat up a thug, next day fight the evil dragon who vaporized the mountain, next week fight the evil god devouring the universe, post game the thug from the beginning knocks you out with a sucker punch.

 

[ZERO7772]

This level of fanfic is amazing~

It would be really stupid. They keep wanking Cloud throughout the game as the strongest party member but he was having issues with Roch and Turks who are just fodders in grand scheme of things. Zack is a genuine first class and one of the best actually, he bested the likes of Angel and Genesis respectful 1st class SOLDIERS in their own right.

There are several theories about this, either the Zack scene takes place in an alternate timeline to the remake one "aka the third timeline" or, The party are not affected by the history due to them being inside the singularity when the changes happened "which will be weird cuz that would mean there is two Clouds, 2 buster sword etc..."

That is true. I would still prefer it they give Cloud his fusion sword in case they decided to add Zack into the party.

You say this, but frankly, I don't see Cloud getting Aerith if they add Zack to the party. The only reason Cloud/Aerith is a thing I because Zack died. Cloud is probably destined with Tifa, no other girl can probably put up with his angst other than her ┬»\_(Òâä)_/┬»

Sephy gets 2-3 chances to crush Cloud in the Final Fight alone but he just teases him most of the time. He's still obsessed with him.

It's a general problem in all JRPGS. Not to mention you usually kill a god and your party has some 9 years old kid and some princess who never held a weapon in her life who has no legit reason to be here.

Zack was a freaking god in Crisis Core before he lost to Sephy. Let not forget that the game reminds you right off the bat that Zack is out of shape and weakened after he breaks out from the lab and he still takes out the whole Shinra army without any Materia. Cloud, on the other hand, runs away if he's faced with more than 5-6 of them lol.

 

[ZERO7772]

Btw, who is your top 5 Final Fantasy character everyone?

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Btw, who is your top 5 Final Fantasy character everyone?

In no particular order:

-Auron

-Barret

-Freya

-Vivi

-Celes

-Zidane

-Faris

-Vincent

-Tidus

-Yuna

 

[TartaChocholate]

Tthe Turks are a rather odd case when it comes to their power. In Before Crisis they steadily climbed up alongside the Player Turk, who in turn was able to fight against Zirconiade who is on equal level as individual Weapons. So they are not pushovers at all, which creates an inconsistency as how Reno was forced to flee in Midgar (and now both he and Rude be decisively defeated in the Pillar). Though, you actually get to fight Zack in a chapter with the Player Turk and he makes it's made pretty clear he could wreck you if he actually wanted to fight.

Zack did indee beat the crap out of the competition to establish himself as the strongest 1st Class after Sephiroth, who is essentially a cheat code, both his victories over Angeal and Genesis, even after he got back his prime form, were pretty decisive. Though I wouldn't really say his poor condition lasted much longer after he broke free from the Nibelheim Mansion, it seemed to aim that he couldn't just rush out of town right away and needed to recover if he actually wanted to save Cloud as well. In the later important fights he has his condition seems better than ever as only Minerva seems to really push him to the corner, everyone else just got a clean defeat at his hands.

From what's shown in Before Crisis, Scarlet's department actively collects intel on their enemies and develops weapons to deal with them. For example, the Prod Cloud was created to fight Weapons and Sephiroth, the Mighty Grunts used in Before Crisis were especially issued by President Shinra's orders to catch the traitor Turks and deal with Fuhito's Ravens which were noted to be growing in strength constantly. So I wouldn't be surprised that when they sent the army to get Zack they had them equipped with state of the art weaponry that could actually hurt him.

Seconded, give Cloud his swiss army sword and actually branch him into multi-wielding. Now we have a better excuse than ever to make AC Cloud playable beyond aesthetic changes. Besides with Zack around he wouldn't be abandoning the Buster Sword anymore, simply returning it.

Well, whenever Cloud tries to go brooding tryhard, Aerith counters with Manic Pixie Dream Girl and intercepting all his angst combos. Tifa plays more defensively, guards the first few rounds and strikes back when Cloud is exhausted. In all seriousness, as the games went on the similarities between Zack and Cloud became more and more thin, I mean, compare the douchebag Cloud is in Midgar to the Super Bro Zack is all the time, they even retconned Cloud's behaviour to mention that he was no longer emulating Zack but rather how Cloud thought a cool badass 1st Class was (with maybe a bit of a power trip there). Aerith's dialogue near the Gold Saucer also mentioned that she wanted to know the real Cloud not the person he was trying to project.

But eh, I am fine with Aerith and Zack together (together in death and all before the Remake). I am more of a CloudxTifa guy personally. It would only bother me because it sinks chances with Cissnei. ZackxCissnei fite me >=V

Well... for Sephy you could argue that he was trying to see if he could use Cloud before beating him this time around. He did offer him the chance to change fate by working togetther and goaded him into taking action with the cryptinc "seven seconds" speech, so at least it really came that he was using him out of pragmatism with fixation as something secondary. Though of course it depends on why he needs Cloud now, if at all. If Cloud must be the one to change Fate because "main character" then it makes sense, but otherwise yeah, bad habits still linger.

Reminds me of Bravely Default, you go from fighting a guy who busts mountains and jump to a god who is endangering the Multiverse. Not gonna lie, it was kind of awesome.

 

[TartaChocholate]

I'd say:

1. Cloud

2. Terra

3. Ramza

4. Tidus

5. Cecil

EDIT:

@Zephyros: Hey, there's something I am curious about. You mentioned that one of of Red XIII's Limit Breaks gave him a pretty good Speed Feat. I took a look at them but didn't find anything. What did you mean then?

 

[ZERO7772]

Are they ever going to fix Sephy's height? He's as tall as Barret in the remake. Dude is HUGE.

 

[PaChi2]

Its alternateverse!Sephy, he might as well be taller.

 

[TartaChocholate]

We all know Sephy's height number is just a formality. His real height is X+1 foot, X being the height of whoever is standing next to him.

 

[TartaChocholate]

A bit of bad news, and pretty late, probably you heard about it in other threads: Keiji Fujiwara passed away on April 12th from cancer. He was the voice for Reno in the Remake as well as Ardyn in XV.

 

[XDragnoir]

We all know Sephy's height number is just a formality. His real height is X+1 foot, X being the height of whoever is standing next to him.

So, his sword's size is (X+1)^2? Also, Keiji Fujiwara was a really good voic actor, being the voice of both Maes Hughes from FMA and Leorio from HxH.

 

[TartaChocholate]

You got the right formula, lol

Keiji was all around awesome, among his lesser known roles but one of my favorites was Tatsuya Kimura from Hajime no Ippo, as well. Dunno, was the kind of VA whose characters I could end up liking simply because he was voicing them =P

 

[ZERO7772]

A bit of bad news, and pretty late, probably you heard about it in other threads: Keiji Fujiwara passed away on April 12th from cancer. He was the voice for Reno in the Remake as well as Ardyn in XV.

It's been a few days. He passed away a few days after the release of the remake.

He was such a great VA, I loved almost every work of his.

RIP.

 

[ZERO7772]

The disrespect ╩ò•ß┤Ñ•╩ö

 

[XDragnoir]

You got the right formula, lol

Keiji was all around awesome, among his lesser known roles but one of my favorites was Tatsuya Kimura from Hajime no Ippo, as well. Dunno, was the kind of VA whose characters I could end up liking simply because he was voicing them =P

He voiced one of my favorite villains in Toaru, Kihara Amata. About FF, is that true that the VII Remake has new tier 2 feats?

 

[Bware1]

Not Tier 2 Feats, but Tier 2 potential

 

[ZERO7772]

I think we can put Remake Sephy at tier 6 easily.

Can't see the party going beyond tier 8 unless there is some hidden texts I missed.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

Ifrit exists in the game which is an automatic High 6-A

 

[ZERO7772]

You guys use cross scaling in FF? I see.

 

[ZephyrosOmega]

You guys use cross scaling in FF? I see.

This wiki is actually more strict on cross-scaling than it should be. Ifrit gets High 6-A because every game with it has had a stronger boss that scales to something higher

 

[ZERO7772]

That doesn't mean FF7R Ifrit is the same thought.

Personally I am against cross scaling, even if it supported by word of god at times. Each continuity should scale to what established within.

 

[ZERO7772]

VS stuff aside, gotta say, I REALLY hated the plot ghosts.

They keep interfering with the events, injuring character, saving some, killing some, delaying the arrival of our heroes. They tried to kill wedge twice because he's not supposed to survive but somehow they allowed Roche to intervene with Cloud and co and injured Jessie on purpose so Cloud go on the mission and even brought Barret back to life.

When they attempted to kill Wedge again I was seriously like "OMG! JUST F*CK OFF ALREADY!!" (ÒâÄÓ▓áþøèÓ▓á)ÒâÄÕ¢íÔö╗ÔöüÔö╗

 

[Regidian]

Shiva doesn't have page? Can't find her (Except ffxv shiva), ans if have one she could have one more key for shiva of ffxiv 5.2 since this shiva have the ice and light combined

 

[Regidian]

Oh and we have garuda and ifrit that can merge together to become Raktapaksa

 

[TartaChocholate]

@Zero: I too would prefer if we rely on what we see in the game directly, at least for now. Ifrit's position is... odd, from what I know, he more or less gets a pass with the strict cross scaling because he consistently shows High 6-A displays, but also because he's used as a lower end for the profiles that scale to him, while the higher ones are still coming from feats directly from the game itself.

@Regidian: Well, it's a work in progress... we kind of decided to make separate profiles for the different incarnations of the Summons as they got too clogged in a single profile. I made a profile for VII Shiva, though I was going to put it in a CRT along others before properly adding it to the site.