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@BFF I don't think so, it'll probably only scale to Zeref with prep. But if it's legit, then it's quite the shock that this even happened.
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Fairy Tail Upgrade?
- Thread starter Perilouss
- Start date
- Status
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He owns the ravines, therefore that shouldn't account as prep. The sole fact that he can even create a weapon like that would make him scale.
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No, Acnologia doesn't scale, only Zeref
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Yes but he created it even before that. Walking through it is irrelevant, him being able to make something like that is the actual feat, not him walking through it. Making a Low 2-C weapon is Low-2-C, I think that goes without saying.
Furthermore, it supports both his statements which said he was above space-time, making it extremely consistent
Furthermore, it supports both his statements which said he was above space-time, making it extremely consistent
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@Shadowsoul
Fair enough. But that brings me to my next line of reasoning. What Zeref is doing is effectively enacting a Peggy Sue fanfic in which he sends his memories back in time to his past self to prevent the mistakes he's made in the present. This may or may not actually constitute timeline destruction, but I'd like more input on this.
Fair enough. But that brings me to my next line of reasoning. What Zeref is doing is effectively enacting a Peggy Sue fanfic in which he sends his memories back in time to his past self to prevent the mistakes he's made in the present. This may or may not actually constitute timeline destruction, but I'd like more input on this.
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@Repp I don't know why but the idea of Zeref writing a fanfic is somewhat hilarious... and oddly fitting.
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I want to read it~
Okay, but if Zeref gets upgraded, would he be 6-B normally (with Etherion) and Low 2-C with hax? Or Low 2-C overall?
Okay, but if Zeref gets upgraded, would he be 6-B normally (with Etherion) and Low 2-C with hax? Or Low 2-C overall?
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I think you've misunderstood. Through resetting time he will revert to how he was before, mortal, but will keep his memories so he doesn't make the mistakes he did.
He doesn't mention sending memories to a previous version of himself, he says himself that he will become normal agai
He doesn't mention sending memories to a previous version of himself, he says himself that he will become normal agai
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How is this any different from Frisk "resetting" back to a previous time period?
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How was that judged?Saikou The Lewd King said:
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Purely hax. Not even "Low 2-C via hax". Just...hax.
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Should this be highlighted?
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You're going have to tell me how Frisk reset time because I can't relate
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You guys should make another thread if you're going to upgrade FT to Low 2-C imo. This one's a bit too long.
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Well what were the circumstances surrounding this? To at least give a better ideaSaikou The Lewd King said:
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@Reppuzan
So I think a Universe Level+ (Transcended Time and reset the timeline) would be appropriate
So I think a Universe Level+ (Transcended Time and reset the timeline) would be appropriate
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I agree with others in saying this is just hax. The fact that this is even called Neo Eclipse (after the Eclipse Gate which was effectively a time travel portal) makes it a lot more likely that Zeref is basically rewinding time to before he became immortal but keeping his current knowledge so that he can prevent bad things from happening. I know a low Tier 9 character that has basically the same ability on a lesser scale that pulled Zeref's plan successfully in his own series. So far this is just mental time travel, not a Low 2-C feat.
"The world will crumble" is just an expression meant to say that the current world will stop existing because he plans to retcon it through time hax and shouldn't be considered a valid statement, it's a common villain phrase. Zeref says he's not traveling to the past or future because effectively it's just his mind/memories traveling to the past. If he was physically traveling to the past/future, there would be two Zerefs existing at the same time, which is not the case. We know this because it's how it worked with Eclipse, we had two Lucys and two Rogues running around in the same world.
"The world will crumble" is just an expression meant to say that the current world will stop existing because he plans to retcon it through time hax and shouldn't be considered a valid statement, it's a common villain phrase. Zeref says he's not traveling to the past or future because effectively it's just his mind/memories traveling to the past. If he was physically traveling to the past/future, there would be two Zerefs existing at the same time, which is not the case. We know this because it's how it worked with Eclipse, we had two Lucys and two Rogues running around in the same world.
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@Hunter I'm inclined to disagree that this is simply mental time travel. Zeref specifically notes that this isn't any form of time travel and instead described it as resetting time and as consequence destroying the current timeline.
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@Apple it will definitely fail, but we already have a pretty damn specific description of how Neo Eclipse works. So any waiting at this point isn't really going to give us anything new, and I don't think simply because the spell is named after th Eclipse gate that we should use that as a standard for how it functions, especially considering that the ravines of time also play a role (considering this is a void where space and time do not exist)
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Yeah, Zeref basically is just sending his memories from the future to evade his mistakes.
Is like if we try to upgrade a time traveler to Low 2-C because it changed some events in the past and "deleted" the previous timeline
Is like if we try to upgrade a time traveler to Low 2-C because it changed some events in the past and "deleted" the previous timeline
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@Davidsteel1
I already explained why he's saying that. If it was regular time travel, there would be two Zerefs in the past. Most importantly, it wouldn't take away Present Zeref's immortality, which is his main goal here besides defeating Acnologia.
And I don't see Zeref saying that he will reset and destroy the timeline. He says that the world (present) will crumble and his world (new life) will start. This is obviously just an expression. His exact words in the explanation are:
"With Mavis' power, I can return... to my normal self..." <- He's going back to the time where he was a normal human.
"Neo Eclipse. I'm not talking about traveling to the past or the future." <- The name makes it a clear reference to the Eclipse Gate, that can and has been used in the series to physically travel to the future or past, that is why he mentions both despite his plan only involving the past. He's saying that what he's going to do doesn't work like the Gate.
"I'll live my life over again, by resetting time. I'll return to the time before I became immortal." <-He's "resetting time", an expression meant to say he is rewinding time to the point before he became immortal. Resetting time would mean starting the timeline from zero, which is obviously not the case. As I've said above, in practical effects, he's going to rewind time to time travel mentally, not physically, which gives him the chance to change things.
Natsu then asks what will happen to the rest of them in the present after Zeref is gone.
"Who knows? After all, this isn't my world anymore." <-Zeref doesn't know or care, since he will be in the past, in his "new world".
So far no proof of him resetting and destroying the timeline. From what we can gather, he's effectively rewinding time and keeping his memories to change the past. Would this retcon the present? Most likely, but this doesn't warrant a Low 2-C rating more than the character I mentioned rewinding time 8 years to change the past and avoid several deaths, thus changing the timeline, does. Any time traveler from a non-deterministic series could change the past and retcon the present, this isn't considered Low 2-C as far as I know.
I already explained why he's saying that. If it was regular time travel, there would be two Zerefs in the past. Most importantly, it wouldn't take away Present Zeref's immortality, which is his main goal here besides defeating Acnologia.
And I don't see Zeref saying that he will reset and destroy the timeline. He says that the world (present) will crumble and his world (new life) will start. This is obviously just an expression. His exact words in the explanation are:
"With Mavis' power, I can return... to my normal self..." <- He's going back to the time where he was a normal human.
"Neo Eclipse. I'm not talking about traveling to the past or the future." <- The name makes it a clear reference to the Eclipse Gate, that can and has been used in the series to physically travel to the future or past, that is why he mentions both despite his plan only involving the past. He's saying that what he's going to do doesn't work like the Gate.
"I'll live my life over again, by resetting time. I'll return to the time before I became immortal." <-He's "resetting time", an expression meant to say he is rewinding time to the point before he became immortal. Resetting time would mean starting the timeline from zero, which is obviously not the case. As I've said above, in practical effects, he's going to rewind time to time travel mentally, not physically, which gives him the chance to change things.
Natsu then asks what will happen to the rest of them in the present after Zeref is gone.
"Who knows? After all, this isn't my world anymore." <-Zeref doesn't know or care, since he will be in the past, in his "new world".
So far no proof of him resetting and destroying the timeline. From what we can gather, he's effectively rewinding time and keeping his memories to change the past. Would this retcon the present? Most likely, but this doesn't warrant a Low 2-C rating more than the character I mentioned rewinding time 8 years to change the past and avoid several deaths, thus changing the timeline, does. Any time traveler from a non-deterministic series could change the past and retcon the present, this isn't considered Low 2-C as far as I know.
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This is arguably the most specifically described spell in the entire series, I really don't see how everyone is mistranslating it. Zeref specifically says "this gate leads neither to the past nor future it starts everything over. It resets time itself." I'm perfectly aware that a tier jump of this level is unusual, but I also feel that mistranslating and misinterpreting the spell in question is a bigger issue. If Zeref is not going to get the tier jump let's at least refute it based on the information we are clearly given.
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I agree with Lazy Hunter
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@Davidsteel1
You do realize that sentence is likely another reference to the Eclipse Gate, a gate previously seen in the series that did lead to the past or future and that Zeref himself created and was involved with, right?
Also, from Chapter 534
"I will relive my life once more, while keeping the memories I have now."
Only way to do this is by either sending your memories to your past self or rewinding time to a past moment while keeping your memories intact. The memories of present Zeref have to go back to the past in some way at some point for this sentence and Zeref's entire plan to make sense, since if Neo Eclipse doesn't involve him sending his mind/memories back in time when he's "resetting" and just resets the entire timeline, you do realize what would happen, right?
Past Zeref does not gain knowledge of future events -> Past is not changed -> Present and Future are not changed
You do realize that sentence is likely another reference to the Eclipse Gate, a gate previously seen in the series that did lead to the past or future and that Zeref himself created and was involved with, right?
Also, from Chapter 534
"I will relive my life once more, while keeping the memories I have now."
Only way to do this is by either sending your memories to your past self or rewinding time to a past moment while keeping your memories intact. The memories of present Zeref have to go back to the past in some way at some point for this sentence and Zeref's entire plan to make sense, since if Neo Eclipse doesn't involve him sending his mind/memories back in time when he's "resetting" and just resets the entire timeline, you do realize what would happen, right?
Past Zeref does not gain knowledge of future events -> Past is not changed -> Present and Future are not changed
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@Lazy chapter 530 the first time that Neo Eclipse is ever mentioned, that sentence was the very first thing that Zeref used to explain Neo Eclipse to Natsu after he mentions it. Also considering Zeref is the one that is casting Neo Eclipse and has shown some ability in Time manipulation it wouldn't be particularly far fetched to imagine he can remove himself from the influence of Neo eclipse. And if in fact the entire plan was to simply send his consciousness back in time, what role would the ravines play?
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@Davidsteel1
I know that. I posted the explanation and what it likely means in my second post. Refer to that for my answer to it.
Considering he has already shown the ability to rewind time on a small scale, I think that Neo Eclipse being the same but on a bigger scale it's a much more reasonable assumption to make given the lack of information we have. As for the ravine, we don't know since he hasn't fully explained it other than he needs both that and Fairy Heart to pull off Neo Eclipse. So hypothetically I'd say it could be either a power source (doubtful, since he already has infinite amounts of magic power with Fairy Heart) or a tool. Given that it is a distortion in time, it might be just the way for him to return to the time before he became immortal, with Fairy Heart fueling the process, since we know from what happened to Ultear that rewinding time even a little requires vast amounts of magic energy.
I know that. I posted the explanation and what it likely means in my second post. Refer to that for my answer to it.
Considering he has already shown the ability to rewind time on a small scale, I think that Neo Eclipse being the same but on a bigger scale it's a much more reasonable assumption to make given the lack of information we have. As for the ravine, we don't know since he hasn't fully explained it other than he needs both that and Fairy Heart to pull off Neo Eclipse. So hypothetically I'd say it could be either a power source (doubtful, since he already has infinite amounts of magic power with Fairy Heart) or a tool. Given that it is a distortion in time, it might be just the way for him to return to the time before he became immortal, with Fairy Heart fueling the process, since we know from what happened to Ultear that rewinding time even a little requires vast amounts of magic energy.
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@Lazy Ultears event is actually y I don't think this is a simple time travel event. Ultear managed to turn back time for a single minute without the need to access an external source, where she failed was the fact that the time she traded was only enough for a single minute, Zeref on the other hand is immortal and hence doesn't suffer from such a limitation (considering Last Aegis doesn't consume magical energy but instead the time of the user) so saying Zeref would need to go to these ridiculous lengths to accomplish what he could very well do normally just doesn't fit into the scale of the current events nor does it fit into the narrative.
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@Davidsteel
The problem with that logic is the fact that Last Ages, a vastly inferior spell, did not require Ultear to create a gate to walk through to reverse time. If it was just turning back time, then Zeref would not have any problems compared to Ultear.
He would not have needed to go through the trouble of acquiring Fairy Heart and making a gate.
The problem with that logic is the fact that Last Ages, a vastly inferior spell, did not require Ultear to create a gate to walk through to reverse time. If it was just turning back time, then Zeref would not have any problems compared to Ultear.
He would not have needed to go through the trouble of acquiring Fairy Heart and making a gate.
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@Davidsteel1
My mistake on the Last Ages spell. Then we don't know why Zeref doesn't try using that spell. However, then this is not proof supporting any of our sides. It could be for whatever reason that Mashima hasn't decided to share or hasn't even thought up. It could be the spell has a limit as to how much time it can rewind and this makes it useless for Zeref since he has to go back a lot, it could be that immortals like Zeref that can't age can't pay the price of the spell and thus can't use it... It could even be just because of Zeref's whim, remember that he created Eclipse Gate, which we already know works fine for time traveling, to avoid Natsu's death, only to then use it for another completely different plan. I can't remember if we found out why he did so.
As I've said several times, there's no proof that he's destroying a timeline. Whatever the exact mechanics of Neo Eclipse are we can only be certain of two things, which I hope we can agree on:
a) Zeref will return to the past before his immortality to relive his life differently while keeping his current memories. He said this twice.
b) By doing this Zeref hopes to change the past, avoiding Natsu's death and turning into END, and also defeating Acnologia.
But changing the past like that to alter a timeline is not a Low 2-C feat. A Low 2-C feat of changing a timeline would be a character that freely rewrites the timeline so that events happen the way they want to happen. Zeref would have a Low 2-C feat if he, for example, retconned away Acnologia's rise to power and Natsu's death from the present without having to live through those events and change them with his actions.
My mistake on the Last Ages spell. Then we don't know why Zeref doesn't try using that spell. However, then this is not proof supporting any of our sides. It could be for whatever reason that Mashima hasn't decided to share or hasn't even thought up. It could be the spell has a limit as to how much time it can rewind and this makes it useless for Zeref since he has to go back a lot, it could be that immortals like Zeref that can't age can't pay the price of the spell and thus can't use it... It could even be just because of Zeref's whim, remember that he created Eclipse Gate, which we already know works fine for time traveling, to avoid Natsu's death, only to then use it for another completely different plan. I can't remember if we found out why he did so.
As I've said several times, there's no proof that he's destroying a timeline. Whatever the exact mechanics of Neo Eclipse are we can only be certain of two things, which I hope we can agree on:
a) Zeref will return to the past before his immortality to relive his life differently while keeping his current memories. He said this twice.
b) By doing this Zeref hopes to change the past, avoiding Natsu's death and turning into END, and also defeating Acnologia.
But changing the past like that to alter a timeline is not a Low 2-C feat. A Low 2-C feat of changing a timeline would be a character that freely rewrites the timeline so that events happen the way they want to happen. Zeref would have a Low 2-C feat if he, for example, retconned away Acnologia's rise to power and Natsu's death from the present without having to live through those events and change them with his actions.
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God in heaven this is y I'm not fond of feats above tier 5, they all become convoluted and confusing.
Ok ok. I'm not going to pretend I completely agree with u, but I do recognise when I'm in over my head so I'll defer to u guys concerning this matter.
Ok ok. I'm not going to pretend I completely agree with u, but I do recognise when I'm in over my head so I'll defer to u guys concerning this matter.
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I agree. I love Tiers 8, 7, 6 myself for this reason and another. Tier 7 in particular is a nice sweet spot for me.Davidsteel1 said:
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