Equal Stats Tournament 2022: Messenger Nia vs Super Monkey

[DemonicDude]

Round 1:
(Match 2)
Same Rules as stated in the Tournament.
Anti-Spiral messenger has arrvided for her first match here in Round 1 and goes up against the all powerful sun god Super Monkey.
Who will advance forward ? let's find out.

Results:
Messenger Nia (Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann):
Super Monkey VTSG (Bloons Tower Defense): 1 (FRIMI)
Inconclusive:

 

[FRIMI]

Well the standard initial opening for VTSG (btw not a demi-god, just full god) would be to summon two planes that fire darts and bombs at her from further away while summoning dark avatars which get stat amp'ed by the Sun God to have increased AP and range. The planes should be the first things to attack, followed shortly by the avatars, and then the sun god itself which danmaku's with most of its abilities at once, with the primary mode of attack being rapid-fire large balls of resistance negating plasma shots mixed in with blades fired in all directions, bombs, ice magic, glue which has a slowing affect, missiles, homing electricity, and large tornados

 

[FRIMI]

the avatars also fire rapid-fire dark plasma which negates resistances, and they're typically weaker than the main attack, but the stat amp provided by VTSG makes the combination of avatars comparable to stronger than the Sun God itself which doesn't buff itself, only its allies

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Nia as Antispiral's Messenger, has the same knowledge as him. Antispiral was capable of keeping up in a fistfight with Simon who merged with every possible version of himself in an infinite multiverse, increasing at least all his already existing skills to infinity, which logically would give Nia comparable skill. Nia also has instinctive reaction for reacting to an attack she wasn't aware of, has instantaneous thought-based teleportation, High-Low regeneration, Non-Physical Interaction via being able to physically touch Antispiral, and Enhanced Senses for being able to see him, who is stated to be an invisible being. Most importantly has Reactive Evolution which becomes more powerful overtime in a fight, as her fighting spirit increases, her Spiral Power increases, thus the abilities given via Spiral Power usage is increased. She can even summon Mugann, which are capable of damaging an entire city with a single beam, along with giving Gurren Lagann a hard time

 

[Rikimarox2]

Nia as Antispiral's Messenger, has the same knowledge as him. Antispiral was capable of keeping up in a fistfight with Simon who merged with every possible version of himself in an infinite multiverse, increasing at least all his already existing skills to infinity, which logically would give Nia comparable skill.

That sounds really weird and iffy, any scan is appreciated.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

That sounds really weird and iffy, any scan is appreciated.

 

[FRIMI]

I should note that all monkeys in the bloons verse have enhanced senses such that they can sense when an enemy is in range, including in cases where they're teleporting which can be seen on certain maps where the track has discontinuities as well as with the golden bloon which behaves very differently to regular bloons.

 

[FRIMI]

the translation at the bottom cuts off, what does that say?

 

[BluudyManikin777]

the translation at the bottom cuts off, what does that say?

No matter where you go, you cannot escape. We repeat various lives in a closed, infinite universe. Into this universe of possibilities, Simon thrust a drill. He twisted his countless selves into a single, gigantic drill. Before he knew it, Simon was no longer there, and Gurren Lagann was standing there. Gurren Lagann was standing there, holding up the Giga Drill. “Let's go, buddy!”

 

[FRIMI]

I'm really not sure what this is meant to imply. Could you add some context? What's actually happening here?

 

[BluudyManikin777]

What's actually happening here?

He escapes Antispiral's Multiverse Labyrinth by integrating the Multiverse, and in turn merges with every version of himself

Visualization

 

[FRIMI]

so all of those characters around him are alternate versions of himself which he merges but how does this give him "infinite skill" and also how does the antispiral keeping up in a fight mean that the skill transfers? Could you show a scan of the fight? I mean sure, skill is important, but just by existing on the vsbattles wiki, I'm sure you know that pure skill is not always or even often what wins fights

 

[BluudyManikin777]

so all of those characters around him are alternate versions of himself which he merges but how does this give him "infinite skill"

Because he merges with alternate versions that exist in an infinite multiverse where recognizing possibility creates universes. We know that he's already trained in martial arts before merging with his selves, so that would already create alternate universes where he learns different things. And they're not just alternate versions he integrates, he also has the past and future versions of every version

and also how does the antispiral keeping up in a fight mean that the skill translates?

Why would it not translate? A brawler can't beat a martial arts master, let alone keep up

I mean sure, skill is important, but just by existing on the vsbattles wiki, I'm sure you know that pure skill is not always or even often what wins fights

Ik, but the skill is still very noteworthy, I did mention Nia's other abilities

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Could you show a scan of the fight?

 

[FRIMI]

So what I was trying to get at with the scaling logic was that typically just keeping up in a fight isn't a measure of comparable skill, but sure, I'll grant that they do appear similarly skilled in this fight scene. I'm still not sure how you can be sure that the merge gave him infinite skill. I mean its not like all their experiences were mutually exclusive. Is it actually canon that he's a master in every fighting style, has pretty much infinite knowledge, etc.? I just don't see how you get "infinite skill" from this, whatever that means anyway

 

[BluudyManikin777]

I'm still not sure how you can be sure that the merge gave him infinite skill. I mean its not like all their experiences were mutually exclusive

Every literal instant, new universes form. Alternate versions of alternate universes exist, like a tree. At that point, there are so many branches that there is without a doubt, different versions that experience entirely different things

Is it actually canon that he's a master in every fighting style, has pretty much infinite knowledge, etc.?

Lore doesn't say it directly, but feats say that logically this is the case

I just don't see how you get "infinite skill" from this, whatever that means anyway

Because there are infinite possibilities, his other innumerable alternative selves learned every martial arts skill there is to learn. I'm not saying he knows literally everything there is to know, but in terms of every already existing capability he had prior to the merge, they should def all be buffed

 

[FRIMI]

Every literal instant, new universes form. Alternate versions of alternate universes exist, like a tree. At that point, there are so many branches that there is without a doubt, different versions that experience entirely different things

why? Is there a universe where the gravitational constant is different? I would imagine that of course your skill increases merging with all your alternate selves, and there could very well be infinite variation. But that doesn't mean that every hypothetical universe exists. There is a difference. Do you know for sure that there exists a universe in which he masters any given fighting style, or really any given thing? Like, are you saying that there is also definitely a universe in which he is the world hot dog eating champion?

Lore doesn't say it directly, but feats say that logically this is the case

What actual feat is there, as that would be far preferable to this multiverse argument.

Because there are infinite possibilities, his other innumerable alternative selves learned every martial arts skill there is to learn. I'm not saying he knows literally everything there is to know, but in terms of every already existing capability he had prior to the merge, they should def all be buffed

I feel I already addressed this in my first paragraph. Infinite possibilities does not mean you get to pick specific skills you want him to have

 

[FRIMI]

Anyway, how well does Nia handle danmaku?

 

[BluudyManikin777]

why? Is there a universe where the gravitational constant is different?

That's not how a quantum multiverse works, laws of physics can't be different in other universes

Do you know for sure that there exists a universe in which he masters any given fighting style, or really any given thing?

Yes. Even if him doing it has even the smallest chance, it's happened infinite amounts of times throughout the infinite multiverse. Anything he possibly could've done; he's done it somewhere else

What actual feat is there, as that would be far preferable to this multiverse argument.

I mean, his skill is entirely dependent on merging with himself, so this is the feat

I feel I already addressed this in my first paragraph. Infinite possibilities does not mean you get to pick specific skills you want him to have

Of course not, I'm saying that it should increase his already existing skills, like piloting, leadership, h2h combat, etc. I'm not giving him every possible skill that I could think of, that would be NLF

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Anyway, how well does Nia handle danmaku?

With her Instinctive Reaction and instant thought-based teleportation, she should be able to handle it very well

 

[FRIMI]

Yes. Even if him doing it has even the smallest chance, it's happened infinite amounts of times throughout the infinite multiverse. Anything he possibly could've done; he's done it somewhere else

Is it stated that that's how this multiverse works? That if there's a nonzero chance of something happening then there is a universe in which it happened? Because again, that isn't something you should assume.

I'm saying that it should increase his already existing skills, like piloting, leadership, h2h combat, etc.

And I'm saying that this should not happen to an arbitrarily large degree.

I'm not giving him every possible skill that I could think of, that would be NLF

imo the "infinite skill" argument already is NLF

With her Instinctive Reaction and instant thought-based teleportation, she should be able to handle it very well

So based on the link gave earlier, she teleports directly to the Sun God ignoring the planes and avatars? Keep in mind they will continue continue rapid-firing bombs and dark sun beams respectively directly at wherever she is at any given moment even if they'd shoot in the direction of VTSG since their attacks have selective intangibility amounting to canonically turning off friendly fire

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Is it stated that that's how this multiverse works? That if there's a nonzero chance of something happening then there is a universe in which it happened? Because again, that isn't something you should assume.

Yes, it’s in the cosmology blog that was accepted. Nakashima, the writer, has said a couple times that TTGL has quantum cosmology. Something having a non zero chance of happening will happen, that’s how it’s theorized to work irl

And I'm saying that this should not happen to an arbitrarily large degree.

But if it isn’t at this level, it would go against the cosmology

imo the "infinite skill" argument already is NLF

It would be NLF if I said he has every possible skill there is to have

So based on the link gave earlier, she teleports directly to the Sun God ignoring the planes and avatars? Keep in mind they will continue continue rapid-firing bombs and dark sun beams respectively directly at wherever she is at any given moment even if they'd shoot in the direction of VTSG since their attacks have selective intangibility amounting to canonically turning off friendly fire

Well, she isn’t limited to just people, TTGL characters can teleport to any recognizable object they’ve observed, since in episode 23, Simon would teleport to Antispiral’s Main Planet by thinking of Nia’s ring. In the midst of a fight, Nia can use Reactive Evolution to become stronger and faster, and adapt to current situations. This ability also becomes better overtime. And like I said before she can dodge attacks she isn’t aware of, so she isn’t easily overwhelmed, plus her speed increase can eventually overcome all that

 

[Rikimarox2]

Ain't knowledgeable on TTGL, but even if the cosmology is a quantum one, it's really huge nlf to somehow assume someone has "Infinite skill" becuz lul cosmology.

If it wasn't directly stated or implied to us that they have infinite skill or smth, as absurd as that sounds, then we sure as hell can't use it. Hell, is that even accepted? I'm not seeing it anywhere on the profile.

 

[FRIMI]

... that’s how it’s theorized to work irl

thats butchering the science in a pretty serious way, like there's no actual irl multiverse theory that says that, for instance if I flip a coin and it creates two banches, one where it lands heads, one where it lands tails, maybe even another where it lands on its side. And even then its not like those are the only possibilities implied by flipping a coin. Maybe it bounces 2 times before landing, maybe it bounces 5. It could do 32 rotations before hitting the ground or it could do 582. In fact, there's an infinite number of probable paths the coin could travel in the air. All of these things have a nonzero chance of happening, but that doesn't mean that they all happen. Alternatively, the only things in the real world we know for sure aren't actually deterministic are on the quantum level. Technically this can make weird stuff happen on the macro scale, but its so unlikely that we say it's impossible. There is a nonzero chance that at any point in time all the subatomic particles in your body could individually spontaneously scatter across the universe, but we also dont say that for every single moment in time a universe is created among infinite others in that moment where this happens. I realize I kinda went on a semi-long rant that ended up moving away from the main point that I was trying to get at which is that the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is typically what's cited as saying this sort of thing, but that's not really how its understood broadly and also the many worlds interpretation =/= string theory which is what is more often cited when talking about the rules that fictional worlds follow. Also this isn't really what's said in "quantum cosmology" assuming you're referring to the attempt to reconcile quantum mechanics and general relativity.

It would be NLF if I said he has every possible skill there is to have

"Infinite skill in every martial art" is NLF on its own. I would honestly say that just the phrase "infinite skill" is NLF and really isn't even supported by your own argument, I could prove it mathematically (I don't mean that as a joke, I literally could if you want). But also, why is "infinite skill" any different to "every possible skill she could have" in your eyes? I mean, by the exact same logic you're using the latter would necessarily follow. In fact, it actually follows more smoothly than the infinite skill argument since even if we take for granted that the cosmology works the way you say it does, it still wouldn't follow that it amounts to infinite skill. It wouldn't even amount to finite, but arbitrarily large skill

Well, she isn’t limited to just people, TTGL characters can teleport to any recognizable object they’ve observed, since in episode 23, Simon would teleport to Antispiral’s Main Planet by thinking of Nia’s ring. In the midst of a fight, Nia can use Reactive Evolution to become stronger and faster, and adapt to current situations. This ability also becomes better overtime. And like I said before she can dodge attacks she isn’t aware of, so she isn’t easily overwhelmed, plus her speed increase can eventually overcome all that

this is honestly way more interesting than the whole infinite skill thing, so if you want we could just drop that aspect entirely instead of continuing down what is ultimately a semantic rabbithole; if she's exactly as skilled as the anti-spiral who is roughly as skilled as the guy who fused with his alternate selves then I can say that she's more combat skilled than VTSG. Anyway, VTSG's goal in this fight is probably gonna be to try to outrange her. whenever something is within several meters, it deploys a field of magic that knocks everything inside away, once again ignoring friendly fire. The knockback is far enough that sometimes it's actually all the way out of its projectile range (however both the god-buffed avatars and the planes have bigger range than the sun god, because the planes already have bigger range by default and the avatars get buffed by VTSG but it doesn't buff itself, also its missile attack can go outside its projectile range). How in character is it for Nia to actively use her teleportation mid-fight?

 

[FRIMI]

I'm not seeing it anywhere on the profile.

I didn't either, I looked at her profile at the start of the match and when the argument was first made I figured I didn't see it but its not there. I would've expected it to at least be mentioned under Intelligence, but its not

 

[FRIMI]

whenever something is within several meters, it deploys a field of magic that knocks everything inside away, once again ignoring friendly fire

for reference, here's a clip of the True Sun God (VTSG can do everything TSG does but better) indefinitely knocking back hundreds of Test Bloons:


Test bloons are special bloons only in sandbox mode that cannot be popped. Its not popping an indefinite stream of bloons, its repeatedly knocking them back. Note that this effect comes from both the knockback that the main attack already has in addition to the purple "forcefield" around it which has a stronger knockback effect and also affects everything in its range so unlike the main attack it can't be potentially dodged. It would be doing the forcefield more often, but the main attack knockback keeps the bloons far enough away from the range of the forcefield until it gets overwhelmed when it hits the pierce cap. It can be hard to tell what's going on because of all the golden beams over the track, but you can actually see the effects of the knockback because when the purple field knocks back the test bloons, the sun avatars stop attacking because the bloons are out of range for a brief moment.

Oh also, in this clip the avatars are all piled in one spot next to TSG, but that's not their usual behavior, VTSG can summon dark avatars anywhere in its range

 

[Nierre]

ohnaw seeing the term "infinite" is already having me weary for the rest of this tournament...

 

[BluudyManikin777]

I didn't either, I looked at her profile at the start of the match and when the argument was first made I figured I didn't see it but its not there. I would've expected it to at least be mentioned under Intelligence, but its not

Because she's obviously outdated, most of the stuff I mentioned isn't there

many worlds interpretation =/= string theory

The cosmology blog does use the many worlds interpretation. In episode 26, Antispiral stated that the consciousnesses of Team Dai-Gurren are trapped in a series of universes that are created instant to instant as they are perceived

How in character is it for Nia to actively use her teleportation mid-fight?

In every fight she's been in as a Messenger, she's never needed to use it. But in episode 22, she teleported out of the way from Gurren Lagann's drill last second. So, I guess she just uses it to dodge attacks. She also could teleport to Antispiral's Main Planet if she wanted

 

[FRIMI]

The cosmology blog does use the many worlds interpretation. In episode 26, Antispiral stated that the consciousnesses of Team Dai-Gurren are trapped in a series of universes that are created instant to instant as they are perceived

Firstly I just wanna say that "trapped in a universe" is a really funny phrase if you think about. Secondly, that doesn't imply the many worlds interpretation specifically, let alone the version of it you're describing. And once again, that still would not imply infinite OR arbitrarily large. I'm fine to concede that Nia is more skilled than VTSG, but this is ridiculous

In every fight she's been in as a Messenger, she's never needed to use it. But in episode 22, she teleported out of the way from Gurren Lagann's drill last second. So, I guess she just uses it to dodge attacks. She also could teleport to Antispiral's Main Planet if she wanted

so then if the teleport is not used offensively, she's gonna have a hard time getting within melee range. The initial teleport (assuming she uses it) will get her there briefly, but the knockback field will almost immediately knock her away while she's also being shot at from by bombs, missiles, magic, etc., and most prominently streams of plasma at least comparable to the core of the sun coming from up pretty much all angles. The plasma of the tier 2 base supermonkey is directly stated to vaporize everything it touches. VTSG main attack >> buffed dark avatar >= TSG main attack >> avatar >> vaporizing tier 2 plasma. (I know AP is equalized, this is more talking about the intensity of the plasma than the actual AP)

 

[FRIMI]

ohnaw seeing the term "infinite" is already having me weary for the rest of this tournament...

don't worry it's not infinite ;P

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Nia still has the ability to summon Mugann, and just teleport back to Antispiral's Main Planet

And once again, that still would not imply infinite OR arbitrarily large

the multiverse is accepted to be infinite via the blog

don't worry it's not infinite ;P

It's not universally accepted or rejected yet, we're not going to keep talking about it for the sake of it taking up too much time to talk about (and is not even a big factor of the match)

 

[FRIMI]

Nia still has the ability to summon Mugann, and just teleport back to Antispiral's Main Planet

Yeah I saw that come up in her page, but I'm not actually sure what/who Mugann is. Also I don't imagine teleporting back to Antispiral's planet will be particularly helpful in this fight

the multiverse is accepted to be infinite via the blog

I wasn't talking about the multiverse, I was talking about Nia's combat ability

don't worry it's not infinite ;P

It's not universally accepted or rejected yet, we're not going to keep talking about it for the sake of it taking up too much time to talk about (and is not even a big factor of the match)

I was just trying to be cheeky, but yeah we should just move on from this ultimately unimportant area

 

[FRIMI]

@DemonicDude btw you should probably know that the image you're using is of a Sun Avatar, not Vengeful True Sun God

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Yeah I saw that come up in her page, but I'm not actually sure what/who Mugann is. Also I don't imagine teleporting back to Antispiral's planet will be particularly helpful in this fight

Why not? All she has to do is have Mugann fight for her while she's an entirely different universe

Mugann are Antispiral's alien soldiers. Ima just say the relevant parts, with a single beam they can severely damage entire city blocks, and when severely damaged, will deconstruct into smaller fragments that explode on contact

 

[FinePoint]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/b...n/latest?cb=20180928232250&path-prefix=bloons

I can't be bothered to figure out how to embed this image, but this is more what the VTSG is like.
Its danmaku is pretty extreme, but mostly directional. It has blades which spread out more.
The planes will automatically track.

 

[BluudyManikin777]

Im tired ima sleep gn

 

[FRIMI]

ok gn, we can continue tomorrow. Although I will say that unless the Mugann have any comparable abilities to Nia herself, I don't think they're gonna be much help, however I do like the idea of Nia and VTSG just summoning foot soldiers at each other as an idea because picturing it in my head is pretty fun

 

[FRIMI]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/b...n/latest?cb=20180928232250&path-prefix=bloons

I can't be bothered to figure out how to embed this image, but this is more what the VTSG is like.
Its danmaku is pretty extreme, but mostly directional. It has blades which spread out more.
The planes will automatically track.

image isn't loading for me, can you upload it to imgur? Also, it should be noted that even though it is directional, it is always shooting every attack directly at its opponent with the exception of the knockback field and the blade attack.

I mean, if it's loading for other people then you shouldn't need to upload it again, I already know what VTSG can do

 

[FinePoint]

image isn't loading for me, can you upload it to imgur? Also, it should be noted that even though it is directional, it is always shooting every attack directly at its opponent with the exception of the knockback field and the blade attack.

I mean, if it's loading for other people then you shouldn't need to upload it again, I already know what VTSG can do

 

[FRIMI]

that VTSG is being homeland buffed, but it looks like the ability isn't active in that screenshot so its probably fine. Also, I totally forgot about those old MOAB textures before they updated it with the 3D model