Elemental Manipulation Page Removal

[Bobsican]

After some thought, this page suffers the exact same issue Hellfire Manipulation did, it tries to generalize a power that's too variable, and would be best just being managed by other power pages we already have, for example, it's better to list that someone has Fire Manipulation, Water Manipulation, Earth Manipulation and Air Manipulation over just slapping "Elemental Manipulation", and you know the page isn't worth keeping when users are encouraged to list the specific subsets of this "ability" anyways.

Overall, the page is just detrimental for indexing and the site would benefit from it removal by preventing pages from only having listed "Elemental Manipulation", which by itself is basically a waste of time reading, and by that point it's just a burden and has no proper meaning by itself, as said before.

 

[Keeweed]

I think elemental manipulation makes way more sense than hellfire. Hellfire can mean literally anything since it always varies from story to story. But elemental manipulation is an easy way to save space and that’s it’s purpose. Since if a character can manipulation lightning, fire, and ice it’s easier to say they have elemental manipulation and say they can manipulate those three things verses listing all those elements individually.

What looks better:

Elemental Manipulation (Can control ice, fire, and lightning)

vs

Ice Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, and Lightning Manipulation (Can control ice, fire, and lightning)

I personally think just saying elemental manipulation makes way more sense because you can control multiple elements and it saves space and time.

 

[Antoniofer]

I assumed that Elemental Manipulation is mainly used to cover element from the periodic table (particular elements such aluminium, hydrogen, oxygen, etc.), those that does not fall under the classical elements. Although, most of time the power is just used when a character control more than one type of classical element.

 

[Keeweed]

I assumed that Elemental Manipulation is mainly used to cover element from the periodic table (particular elements such aluminium, hydrogen, oxygen, etc.), those that does not fall under the classical elements. Although, most of time the power is just used when a character control more than one type of classical element.

No that’s not what elemental manipulation is on this site. What you described was matter manipulation. Elemental manipulation is the classical elements. It purely exist to save space on profile and because it’s more accurate to say a character has elemental manipulation if they can control a multitude of elements vs listing the powers individually.

 

[Antoniofer]

Considering there is only 4 classical elements, don't think is that much of a trouble to list them individually.

 

[Keeweed]

Elemental manipulation on this site also includes sand, smoke, and other powers. And the work it would take to remove elemental manipulation is definitely not worth it. It has a good purpose, it saves a ton of space and it’s technically more accurate to say most the time. It isn’t worthless and so removing it just is a negative, even if it is a small one.

 

[Bobsican]

I think elemental manipulation makes way more sense than hellfire. Hellfire can mean literally anything since it always varies from story to story. But elemental manipulation is an easy way to save space and that’s it’s purpose. Since if a character can manipulation lightning, fire, and ice it’s easier to say they have elemental manipulation and say they can manipulate those three things verses listing all those elements individually.

What looks better:

Elemental Manipulation (Can control ice, fire, and lightning)

vs

Ice Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, and Lightning Manipulation (Can control ice, fire, and lightning)

I personally think just saying elemental manipulation makes way more sense because you can control multiple elements and it saves space and time.

The latter option actually looks better, as at that point the former option is just a broad term to not link to the pages of the powers it actually fits as (Visitors of the site won't be aware that we have a page for Fire Manipulation if it isn't even linked, they aren't going to dig for it).

Simply put, not everyone is going to have every single part of what Elemental Manipulation is, and so the issue is that it's too broad and non-specific for our purposes, leaving details more unecessarily vague, and even redundant at times.

When someone mentions "Elemental Manipulation", you don't think immediately something in specific like when Fire Manip is brought up and you think about flames and so on, but multiple entirely unrelated powers that are "merged" just because some verses happen to do so, and not even in a consistent and common enought way to make an entire power like that.

Elemental manipulation on this site also includes sand, smoke, and other powers. And the work it would take to remove elemental manipulation is definitely not worth it. It has a good purpose, it saves a ton of space and it’s technically more accurate to say most the time. It isn’t worthless and so removing it just is a negative, even if it is a small one.

It's definitely worth it, pages that would be listing the actual subsets as you would say are fairly easily to change accordingly without compromising content in a page, cases that don't just get the whole power removed, as usual.
However, it seems there's about 3000 pages on the site that link to it, so it would have to be a site-wide proyect.

 

[Antvasima]

You are technically correct in that this power is somewhat redundant, but it is still rather convenient for our purposes, rather than write 4 other powers after each other, and it is lots of unnecessary work for no actual benefit to revise almost 1450 pages in this manner.

Pages that link to "Elemental Manipulation" | VS Battles Wiki | Fandom

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Bobsican]

Well, the problem is that cases where only that power is listed without further detail isn't unheard of. At the very least, if the power has to remain out of being arguably a low priority for removing, it should be noted on the page that at least one of the "subpowers" of it have to be listed, as otherwise the power "by itself" has no meaning, although at that point it's unecessary to list (or have) in the first place beyond saving a few words at most.

 

[Keeweed]

“so it would have to be a site-wide proyect.”

So it wouldn’t be easy to change, at all. Also I think having one power to explain the elements looks vastly cleaner. Why list 6 separate powers when there’s one word that describes them all and it’s vastly more accurate in that scenario.

Elemental Manipulation isn’t vague, it’s a bit broad (which is the point of the power) but that’s why powers have descriptions. If people don’t put the descriptions then that’s a problem on them not on the power. Just listing soul manipulation happens a lot and it causes a lot of problems.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the problem is that cases where only that power is listed without further detail isn't unheard of. At the very least, if the power has to remain out of being arguably a low priority for removing, it should be noted on the page that at least one of the "subpowers" of it have to be listed, as otherwise the power "by itself" has no meaning, although at that point it's unecessary to list (or have) in the first place beyond saving a few words at most.

I suppose that seems reasonable.

 

[Abstractions]

Well, the problem is that cases where only that power is listed without further detail isn't unheard of.

People should be listing the reasonings for giving powers like this anyway, the problem you would be having isn't with Elemental Manipulation at this point, it's just those who aren't putting justifications on pages.

 

[Antvasima]

That is true.

 

[Bobsican]

People should be listing the reasonings for giving powers like this anyway, the problem you would be having isn't with Elemental Manipulation at this point, it's just those who aren't putting justifications on pages.

Yes, but unlike other powers where it's pretty self explanatory, like with Fire Manipulation, for all we know the Elemental Manip on X character with no details can cover about anything that's listed, or even just one of the "subset" abilities in it.

That being said, the power being around makes more negatives than positives overall, and saying directly the powers someone has, for example, "[[Fire Manipulation]], [[Ice Manipulation]], [[Electricity Manipulation]]" takes less effort to write and understand than "[[Elemental Manipulation]] ([[Fire Manipulation|Fire]], [[Ice Manipulation|Ice]] and [[Electricity Manipulation|Electricity]])", after all, at this point justifications aren't being listed, but entire powers as well, which is problematic.

This is like as if we had a category for "Water-related powers" and we just listed that over specifically listing Water Manip, Ice Manip and Smoke (Vapor) Manip, even if that just gives issues and is overall unecessary for indexing as at that point we're better just listing the powers without the "broader category".

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

I think elemental manipulation makes way more sense than hellfire. Hellfire can mean literally anything since it always varies from story to story. But elemental manipulation is an easy way to save space and that’s it’s purpose. Since if a character can manipulation lightning, fire, and ice it’s easier to say they have elemental manipulation and say they can manipulate those three things verses listing all those elements individually.

What looks better:

Elemental Manipulation (Can control ice, fire, and lightning)

vs

Ice Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, and Lightning Manipulation (Can control ice, fire, and lightning)

I personally think just saying elemental manipulation makes way more sense because you can control multiple elements and it saves space and time.

If you're using [[Electricity Manipulation|Lightning Manipulation]], as I think you are, the part in brackets can now be dropped.

Sorry for going back to this.

 

[Keeweed]

That’s not how you list elemental manipulation though (Referring to Bob). If we listed it like that then I would be fine getting rid of it, but we don’t link the other powers within the description of elemental manipulation. You do what I did earlier, you just say what elements they are shown to control. Like if you can make ice spikes and make it rain fire you would say:

Elemental Manipulation (Can make ice spikes out of the ground and make it rain fire)

vs

Ice Manipulation (Can make ice spikes out of the ground), Fire Manipulation (Can make it rain fire).

Add in like 6 more powers to the second list (lightning manipulation, smoke manipulation for example) and you can see why elemental manipulation is helpful.

 

[Keeweed]

If you're using [[Electricity Manipulation|Lightning Manipulation]], as you might be, the part in brackets can now be dropped.

Sorry for going back to this.

That’s if you just have super generic version of the power though. If you can only do a specific thing with each element then you need to list that and thus the powers can begin to take up a ton of space.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

That’s not how you list elemental manipulation though (Referring to Bob). If we listed it like that then I would be fine getting rid of it, but we don’t link the other powers within the description of elemental manipulation. You do what I did earlier, you just say what elements they are shown to control. Like if you can make ice spikes and make it rain fire you would say:

Elemental Manipulation (Can make ice spikes out of the ground and make it rain fire)

vs

Ice Manipulation (Can make ice spikes out of the ground), Fire Manipulation (Can make it rain fire).

Add in like 6 more powers to the second list (lightning manipulation, smoke manipulation for example) and you can see why elemental manipulation is helpful.

I am now starting to see that the same argument could be made for magic.

That’s if you just have super generic version of the power though. If you can only do a specific thing with each element then you need to list that and thus the powers can begin to take up a ton of space.

As was the case in your example. Space well spent.

 

[Keeweed]

That isn’t space we’ll spent. It’s space completely wasted. It takes time to type out and it takes time to read through for everyone else. What’s wrong with use one word to describe the powers when that word is easier and more accurate. Ignoring all the work that would be required to remove the power. Why edit 3000 pages over personal preference, it reminds me of when mid regeneration started to include brain damage rather than pure decapitation. Technically low mid regeneration would be more accurate towards regening brain damage, but so many profiles and the power description already counted it as mid so people decided it wouldn’t be worth changing.

This has even less of a reason to change. Elemental manipulation is absolutely the correct power and it has a purpose, to save space. Getting rid of it is such a waste of time and resources just to make pages more cluttered.

 

[Bobsican]

That isn’t space we’ll spent. It’s space completely wasted. It takes time to type out and it takes time to read through for everyone else. What’s wrong with use one word to describe the powers when that word is easier and more accurate. Ignoring all the work that would be required to remove the power. Why edit 3000 pages over personal preference, it reminds me of when mid regeneration started to include brain damage rather than pure decapitation. Technically low mid regeneration would be more accurate towards regening brain damage, but so many profiles and the power description already counted it as mid so people decided it wouldn’t be worth changing.

This has even less of a reason to change. Elemental manipulation is absolutely the correct power and it has a purpose, to save space. Getting rid of it is such a waste of time and resources just to make pages more cluttered.

It doesn't make the pages "more cluttered" for no reason, it turns them novice-proof by forcing users to just list the respective powers instead, especially considering that for the purposes of explanations, Elemental Manip isn't really a power on its own, as said before, and so is redundant and overall unecessary.

Keeping Regeneration the same as it was out of some semantics is fine as the effort arguably isn't worth it and there was no big need to change, but the same can be said for most revisions, and we don't just dismiss them out of that. In addition, unlike that case, removing it wouldn't compromise a ton of profiles, given that it's far more clear if someone has Element Manip or not (and so it can be edited accordingly without compromising content in a page, if it's just listed "blank" with nothing else, it's just removed, like we do with nearly anything else), rather than meeting some specific new criteria on Regen, so false equivalence right here.

While Magic is a pretty broad term, unlike Element Manip, it isn't used as a substitute to index several other powers, but rather a power of its own that explains how many other powers in a setting may be done, which is relevant out of there being many verses that disrupt or otherwise interact with this particular method.

 

[Abstractions]

Yes, but unlike other powers where it's pretty self explanatory, like with Fire Manipulation, for all we know the Elemental Manip on X character with no details can cover about anything that's listed, or even just one of the "subset" abilities in it.

I'd say that isn't necessarily true, someone with fire manipulation may only be able to manipulate pre-existing sources, or it only apply to certain things, like lighting a candle. The same thing can be applied to Healing, where we don't know to what extent a character can heal with it unless it is specified.

Another offender in this regard would probably be Weapon Mastery, as we know, tons of weapons exist, and if it isn't specified we cannot know which this applies to.

A general rule of thumb should be that everyone list the justifications for such abilities regardless.

That being said, the power being around makes more negatives than positives overall, and saying directly the powers someone has, for example, "[[Fire Manipulation]], [[Ice Manipulation]], [[Electricity Manipulation]]" takes less effort to write and understand than "[[Elemental Manipulation]] ([[Fire Manipulation|Fire]], [[Ice Manipulation|Ice]] and [[Electricity Manipulation|Electricity]])", after all, at this point justifications aren't being listed, but entire powers as well, which is problematic.

Despite how much it takes up in code, it still looks more condensed on the page when viewed normally, which is arguably all that matters to some.

 

[Bobsican]

I'd say that isn't necessarily true, someone with fire manipulation may only be able to manipulate pre-existing sources, or it only apply to certain things, like lighting a candle. The same thing can be applied to Healing, where we don't know to what extent a character can heal with it unless it is specified.

Another offender in this regard would probably be Weapon Mastery, as we know, tons of weapons exist, and if it isn't specified we cannot know which this applies to.

A general rule of thumb should be that everyone list the justifications for such abilities regardless.


Despite how much it takes up in code, it still looks more condensed on the page when viewed normally, which is arguably all that matters to some.

TBH Weapon Mastery isn't exactly a power and would be better in the intelligence section, but then again, we have Social Influencing.
Anyways, here's the thing, all of the possible uses of Fire Manipulation still give a blatant hint, that fire is involved, but in Elemental Manip, it's even more vague, as by itself it basically has no meaning, it can be multiple kinds of water manip, blowing air, summoning magma, or even a combination of those and more. However, I do agree that in any case being specific on the applications and what's involved is best, yes.
Regarding the last point, I think it's best to see what others think, although letting this be may set a bad precedent to let around power pages that would fit far better as just a category if anything.

 

[Keeweed]

“Despite how much it takes up in code, it still looks more condensed on the page when viewed normally, which is arguably all that matters to some.”

I meantion earlier that’s not how we write elemental manipulation descriptions. You don’t link the other powers in the description because the elemental page already has their links. Though I’m working right now so I’ll be back later

 

[Abstractions]

“Despite how much it takes up in code, it still looks more condensed on the page when viewed normally, which is arguably all that matters to some.”

I meantion earlier that’s not how we write elemental manipulation descriptions. You don’t link the other powers in the description because the elemental page already has their links. Though I’m working right now so I’ll be back later

I was more so tackling what example Bob provided regardless of if it's correct or not, but thank you.

TBH Weapon Mastery isn't exactly a power and would be better in the intelligence section, but then again, we have Social Influencing.

That would be why it's called powers and abilities.

I could say a lot of verses don't treat superhuman strength as a power and rather a character's natural strength, which would end up making it not apply in cases it's not considered such. (Lots of Power Nullification cases don't apply to it), but this is nitpicky semantics.

 

[Bobsican]

That would be why it's called powers and abilities.

I could say a lot of verses don't treat superhuman strength as a power and rather a character's natural strength, which would end up making it not apply in cases it's not considered such. (Lots of Power Nullification cases don't apply to it), but this is nitpicky semantics.

TBH "Superhuman Physical Characteristics" is unecessary given that it's exclusively based on stats, and the tiering system itself already covers that sort of purpose if anything, but it would be nearly impossible to consistently remove it at this point, although that's somewhat off-topic.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Elemental Manipulation (Can control ice, fire, and lightning)

vs

Ice Manipulation, Fire Manipulation, and Lightning Manipulation

Written this way, it takes up about as much space and conveys the information just as well

 

[Keeweed]

Well that’s with only two to three elements. But imagine if you had all of them.

Elemental Manipulation vs fire, ice, lightning, water, light, and darkness manipulation. The point of elemental manipulation is to be broad so when you come across a character with a broad range of elemental powers you can quickly shorten it.

If someone can only manipulate fire go with fire manipulation, if someone can manipulate like 6 separate elements, elemental manipulation would be the way too go.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

“Despite how much it takes up in code, it still looks more condensed on the page when viewed normally, which is arguably all that matters to some.”

I meantion earlier that’s not how we write elemental manipulation descriptions. You don’t link the other powers in the description because the elemental page already has their links. Though I’m working right now so I’ll be back later

Like for plastic, which is an actual element in an actual game with profiles here.

 

[Antvasima]

Abstractions and Keeweed:

What do you think that we should do here?

 

[Keeweed]

When you say it like that it sounds bias. The discussion isn’t over yet, so asking one side what to do is slightly rude. Though I mean I personally think nothing should be done, no profile needs to change, and the thread definitely shouldn’t be closed, unless the creator of it wants it closed.

 

[Bobsican]

I'm fine if the "power" remains even if only for the sake of convenience out of the preference of some editors, even if it's redundant and overall unecessary in my point of view, but...
1: Perhaps the page should list that it being listed is optional? After all, by itself it covers nothing, and just listing directly each "subset" of it is about as effective.
2: The category "Element Users" should be added to all characters that have at least two or more of its "subsets" regardless of if Elemental Manipulation is actually listed or not?
I also would suggest contacting Content Mods, given that page formatting is within their area.

 

[Antvasima]

When you say it like that it sounds bias. The discussion isn’t over yet, so asking one side what to do is slightly rude. Though I mean I personally think nothing should be done, no profile needs to change, and the thread definitely shouldn’t be closed, unless the creator of it wants it closed.

Well, you two seemed to know what you were talking about, but all right then.

 

[Antvasima]

I'm fine if the "power" remains even if only for the sake of convenience out of the preference of some editors, even if it's redundant and overall unecessary in my point of view, but...
1: Perhaps the page should list that it being listed is optional? After all, by itself it covers nothing, and just listing directly each "subset" of it is about as effective.
2: The category "Element Users" should be added to all characters that have at least two or more of its "subsets" regardless of if Elemental Manipulation is actually listed or not?
I also would suggest contacting Content Mods, given that page formatting is within their area.

I do not mind if the pages with elemental manipulation listed also get an "Element Users" category.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

2: The category "Element Users" should be added to all characters that have at least two or more of its "subsets" regardless of if Elemental Manipulation is actually listed or not?

Would that just be fire, air, earth and water?

 

[Bobsican]

Yes, but I meant over cases of characters, for example, that have listed only "Fire Manipulation, Electricity Manipulation", but with no "Elemental Manipulation" listed being qualified to have the Element Users category regardless, given that this "power" is really nothing but a way to ease listing a few powers that are quite self-explanatory, more complicated cases can just be listed separately with their respective powers, in fact, for such cases, Elemental Manipulation being around is a burden as it makes formatting a mess, as either you list a large blob of text as a subsection of Elemental Manip, or abruptly skip that one and list it separately, further showcasing its uselessness beyond saving a few words in certain contexts.

 

[Keeweed]

I’m working right now, but I disagree with it being completely worthless. Though I don’t have time to discuss that right now.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Yes, but I meant over cases of characters, for example, that have listed only "Fire Manipulation, Electricity Manipulation", but with no "Elemental Manipulation" listed being qualified to have the Element Users category regardless, given that this "power" is really nothing but a way to ease listing a few powers that are quite self-explanatory, more complicated cases can just be listed separately with their respective powers, in fact, for such cases, Elemental Manipulation being around is a burden as it makes formatting a mess, as either you list a large blob of text as a subsection of Elemental Manip, or abruptly skip that one and list it separately, further showcasing its uselessness beyond saving a few words in certain contexts.

"Over cases?"

 

[Bobsican]

"Over cases" as in "in this sort of situations"

The only use it has to be useful is to ease listing multiple possible options, but unlike other powers that simply have subsets, for example, Time Manipulation can include Time Stop, but Time Stop doesn't include Time Manipulation as a whole, Elemental Manipulation is its subsets, being just a way to list these "subsets", making it unecessary for indexing beyond the mere preference of some.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

That's not grammatically correct.

 

[Bobsican]

Well, please excuse me, English isn't my primary language, but at least the idea is clear enought now.