Final Fantasy Tactics (Okay, let's try this again)

[TartaChocholate]

Alrighto, some complicated stuff came up IRL during the last Final Fantasy Tactics CRT so I had to request for it to be closed. Now, this does tie with the revision regarding FFVII, so I decided to finish that CRT and post them both at the same time, hence the delay.

Anyhow:

The idea here is to add magic from the game, Ivalician Magick, as a verse power of sorts and revise the Generic Job Classes of Final Fantasy Tactcis, as well as Ramza and Ultima's profiles, though this will be focused simply on abilities and powers. Ultima will also be covered because her abilities actually are relevant to overall ability scaling for other characters.

Here's the blog with the full explanations.

While the blog covers all the Lucavi, only Ultima has a profile proper, reason why she's the only one with a full revision for now.

Here's a rundown of what's being changed:

1. Ivalician Magick

Spoiler: Abilities

• Magic
• Soul Manipulation and Energy Manipulation
• Subjective Reality and Empowerment/Power Nullification
• Probability Manipulation
• Non-Physical Interaction (Spirit, Energy, Nonexistence and Nonduality)
• Regeneration Negation (Low-Godly)
• Immortality Negation (Types 2, 3, 4, 5, 7 and 8)
• Power Mimicry
• Absorption
• Damage Boost/Damage Reduction
• Reflection and Space-Time Manipulation Negation
• Subjective Reality and Power Nullification Negation

2. Bravery

Spoiler: Abilities

• Empowerment
• Weapon Mastery
• Instinctive Action

3. Squire and Chemist

Spoiler: Abilities

Squire:

• Weapon Mastery
• Statistics Amplification
• Healing
• Purification (Type 3)
• Power Bestowal
• Accelerated Development

Chemist:

• Weapon Mastery
• Healing
• Energy Manipulation
• Purification (Type 3)
• Resurrection
• Enhanced Senses
• Can prevent their equimpment being stolen or destroyed

4. Knight and Archer

Spoiler: Abilities

Knight:

• Weapon Mastery
• Statistics Reduction
• Energy Manipulation
• Can destroy enemy equipment

Archer:

• Weapon Mastery
• Enhanced Senses
• Damage Boost
• Accelerated Development
• Analytical Prediction

5. White Mage and Black Mage

Spoiler: Abilities

White Mage:

• Weapon Mastery
• Ivalician Magick
• Soul Manipulation and Holy Manipulation
• Reflection and Space-Time Manipulation Negation
• Healing
• Resurrection
• Regeneration (Low-Mid)
• Damage Reduction via Forcefield Creation
• Light Manipulation
• Purification (Type 3)
• Damage Reduction and Probability Manipulation

Black Mage:

• Weapon Mastery
• Ivalician Magick
• Fire Manipulation
• Ice Manipulation
• Electricity Manipulation
• Reflection and Space-Time Manipulation Negation
• Poison Manipulation
• Transmutation and Power Nullification
• Death Manipulation via Soul Manipulation
• Matter Manipulation (Sub-Atomic) and Radiation Manipulation
• Damage Boost and Probability Manipulation

6. Monk and Thief

Spoiler: Abilities

Monk:

• Martial Arts
• Chi Manipulation
• Energy Projection
• Vibration Manipulation
• Death Manipulation via Pressure Points
• Healing and Energy Manipulation
• Resurrection
• Purification (Type 3)
• Analytical Prediction

Thief:

• Weapon Mastery
• Non-Physical Interaction
• Empathic Manipulation
• Can steal enemy equipment
• Analytical Prediction

7. Mystic and Time Mage

Spoiler: Abilities

Mystic:

• Weapon Mastery
• Ivalician Magick
• Energy Manipulation and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2)
• Reflection and Space-Time Manipulation Negation
• Limited Precognition
• Sense Manipulation
• Absorption
• Empathic Manipulation
• Corruption (Type 2) and Necromancy
• Power Nullification
• Madness Manipulation (Type 2)
• Sleep Manipulation
• Petrification
• Damage Reduction
• Free Movement and Resistance to Weather Manipulation

Time Mage:

• Weapon Mastery
• Ivalician Magick
• Space-Time Manipulation and Law Manipulation
• Reflection and Space-Time Manipulation Negation
• Time Manipulation
• Time Stop
• Spatial Manipulation and Levitation
• Attack Reflection via Space-Time Manipulation
• Gravity Manipulation
• Damage Transferal
• Teleportation

8. Geomancer and Dragoon

Spoiler: Abilities

Geomancer:

• Weapon Mastery
• Elemental Manipulation and Probability Manipulation
• Power Nullification and Subjective Reality Negation
• Reflection and Space-Time Manipulation Negation
• Space-Time Manipulation
• Water Manipulation
• Plant Manipulation
• Earth Manipulation
• Air Manipulation
• Fire Manipulation
• Sand Manipulation
• Ice Manipulation
• Magma Manipulation
• Status Effect Inducement
• Paralysis Inducemente
• Transmutation
• Petrification
• Madness Manipulation (Type 2)
• Power Nullification
• Sleep Manipulation
• Death Manipulation
• Sense Manipulation
• Time Manipulation

Dragoon:

• Weapon Mastery
• Damage Boost
• Resurrection
• Acrobatics (Hypermobility)

9. Orator and Summoner

Spoiler: Abilities

Orator:

• Weapon Mastery
• Automatic Translation
• Social Influencing
• Morality Manipulation
• Empathic Manipulation
• Fate Manipulation and Death Manipulation
• Madness Manipulation (Type 2)
• Sleep Manipulation
• Resistance to Social Influencing
• Animal Manipulation
• Can beg for money (really)

Summoner:

• Weapon Mastery
• Ivalician Magick
• Summoning
• Reflection and Space-Time Manipulation Negation
• Healing
• Ice Manipulation and Absolute Zero
• Electricity Manipulation
• Hellfire Manipulation
• Fire Manipulation
• Earth Manipulation
• Water Manipulation
• Air Manipulation, Life Manipulation and Power Nullification
• Sense Manipulation and Power Nullification
• Darkness Manipulation
• Death Manipulation
• Matter Manipulation (Sub-Atomic) and Radiation Manipulation
• Damage Transferal
• Attack Reflection
• Light Manipulation
• Critical: Recover MP allows the user to fully restore their magical power upon being critically wounded.
• Halve MP cuts by half the magic consumed when using abilities.

10. Samurai and Ninja

Spoiler: Abilities

Samurai:

• Weapon Mastery
• Summoning and Soul Manipulation
• Power Nullification and Subjective Reality Negation
• Reflection and Space-Time Manipulation Negation
• Invisibility
• Unholy Manipulation
• Absorption
• Healing
• Water Manipulation and Time Manipulation (Slowdown)
• Damage Reduction
• Soul Manipulation, Death Manipulation, Fate Manipulation and Madness Manipulation (Type 2)
• Curse Manipulation
• Regeneration (High-Low) and Time Manipulation (Acceleration)
• Fire Manipulation
• Damage Transferal
• Martial Arts
• Free Movement

Ninja:

• Weapon Mastery
• Stealth Mastery
• Martial Arts
• Fire Manipulation
• Water Manipulation
• Electricity Manipulation
• Invisibility
• Enhanced Senses
• Free Movement (Water Walking)

11. Arithmetician and Mime

Spoiler: Abilities

Arithmetician:

• Weapon Mastery
• Mathematics Manipulation (Type 2)
• Ivalician Magick
• Energy Manipulation
• Genius Intelligence
• Healing
• Damage Transferal and Absorption
• Accelerated Development

Mime:

• Martial Arts
• Power Bestowal
• Power Mimicry

12. Dancer and Bard

Spoiler: Abilities

Dancer:

• Weapon Mastery
• Magic
• Energy Manipulation
• Life Manipulation
• Statistics Reduction
• Mind Manipulation
• Sense Manipulation
• Madness Manipulation (Type 2)
• Transmutation
• Sleep Manipulation
• Time Manipulation (Slowdown and Reset)
• Time Stop
• Poison Manipulation
• Power Nullification
• Statistics Amplification
• Empathic Manipulation
• Acrobatics (Hypermobility)
• Flight

Bard:

• Weapon Mastery and Sound Manipulation
• Energy Manipulation
• Healing
• Empathic Manipulation and Statistics Amplification
• Blessed
• Resurrection
• Damage Reduction
• Regeneration (High-Low)
• Time Manipulation (Acceleration and Set)
• Empathic Manipulation
• Flight

13. Dark Knight and Onion Knight

Spoiler: Abilities

Dark Knight:

• Weapon Mastery
• Empowerment
• Darkness Manipulation and Unholy Manipulation
• Absorption
• Time Stop
• Life Manipulation
• Vibration Manipulation
• Time Manipulation (Slowdown)
• Statistics Amplification
• Statistics Reduction
• Acrobatics (Hypermobility)

Onion Knight:

• Weapon Mastery
• Martial Arts

14. Ramza Beoulve

Spoiler: Abilities & Resistances

Innate Abilities:
Innate Resistances:
Unique Class (Squire):
Equipment Abilities:
Equipment Resistances:

14. Ultima, the Angel of Blood

Spoiler: Abilities & Resistances

Auracite:

• Reality Warping
• Blessing, Corruption (Type 2) and Possession
• Transformation
• Healing and Resurrection

Lucavi General:

• Immortality (Type 1)
• Teleportation
• Telepathy
• Unholy Manipulation
• Ivalician Magick
• Mind Manipulation, Soul Manipulation and Empathic Manipulation
• Summoning

Innate Abilities:

• Resurrection (Not combat applicable)
• Dimensional Travel
• Nonduality (Nature Type 2, Aspect 2)
• Acausality (Type 4)
• Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 2, Aspects 1 and 3)
• Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 1)
• Immortality (Type 5)
• Weapon Mastery
• Martial Arts
• Transformation

Battle Abilities:

• Life Manipulation and Energy Manipulation
• Magnetism Manipulation
• Power Nullification via Law Manipulation
• Empowerment
• Damage Transferal
• Minor Resistance Negation
• Minor Causality Manipulation

Magick & Technicks:

• Ivalician Magick
• Power Nullification and Subjective Reality Negation
• Reflection and Space-Time Manipulation Negation
• Energy Projection
• Chaos Manipulation and Existence Erasure
• Void Manipulation
• Petrification
• Sense Manipulation
• Madness Manipulation (Type 2)
• Transmutation
• Time Manipulation (Slowdown)
• Time Stop
• Power Nullification
• Energy Manipulation
• Time Travel (Reset)
• Damage Reduction via Forcefield Creation
• Holy Manipulation and Power Modification
• Healing
• Attack Reflection via Space-Time Manipulation
• Purification (Type 3)
• Instinctive Action, Absorption and Empathic Manipulation
• Flight

Resistances:

• Fire Manipulation, Ice Manipulation, Electricity Manipulation, Water Manipulation, Earth Manipulation and Air Manipulation
• Holy Manipulation (Absorption)
• Gravity Manipulation
• Petrification
• Time Manipulation
• Time Stop
• Absorption
• Death Manipulation and Fate Manipulation
• Sleep Manipulation
• Poison Mannipulation
• Transmutation
• Sense Manipulation
• Power Modification
• Organic Manipulation
• Disease Manipulation
• Perception Manipulation
• Empathic Manipulation
• Life Manipulation
• Necromancy, Blood Manipulation, Body Puppetry and Sense Manipulation
• Mind Manipulation and Madness Manipulation (Types 2 and 3)
• Power Nullification
• Morality Manipulation and Social Influencing
• Resistance Negation
• BFR
• Information Analysis
• Soul Manipulation
• Absolute Zero
• Matter Manipulation (Quantum), Radiation Manipulation and Explosion Manipulation
• Pressure Points
• Space-Time Manipulation and Law Manipulation
• Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2)
• Probability Manipulation
• Chi Manipulation and Sealing
• Sealing and Shadow Manipulation
• Biological Manipulation
• Ectoplasm Manipulation
• Corrosion Inducement
• Reality Warping
• Unholy Manipulation
• Chaos Manipulation, Void Manipulation and Existence Erasure
• Corruption (Type 1 and 2)
• Weather Manipulation

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looking pretty good.

 

[Rutæhh]

agree

 

[Hypertornado099]

Probability Manipulation: The higher an unit's Faith is, the higher the chances[3] of successfully inflicting magick's secondary effects, such as ailments or augments

This feels more like higher potency hax rather than manipulating luck

Non-Physical Interaction (Nonexistence and Nonduality) By the end of the story, sufficiently strong Magick can harm and kill Ultima, the Angel of Blood, a being who has been released from the principles of the world[1], being above dualities such as right and wrong, good and evil, creation and destruction, order and chaos[1], and existence and nothingness

Being released from the principles of the world is not evidence of being non physical, being neither good or evil counts for no ability. This scan says it brings creation, destruction and chaos, not that it is above those dualities. Bringing creation and destruction is not anything notable and bringing chaos is just bringing disorder, which is also not listed as any ability here. His magic "transcending existence and nonexistence" does not mean it also transcends them, and I feel like that doesn't mean anything?

Regeneration Negation (Low-Godly): Magick can lay to rest[7] ghostly entities and fully destroy[4] undead creatures. Spectral enemies[4] like is the case of Ghouls[4], are capable of reviving from pieces of their soul[4], and the ghosts of fallen warriors normally simply come back due to being unable[7] to rest in peace.

Immortality Negation (Types 2, 3, 4, 5, 7 and 8): Magick can kill monsters[4] who are defeated, but otherwise survive grievous injuries such as being reduced to pieces[7] of their bodies[8], as well as being capable[4] of destroying undead enemies[1] who simply revive and restore themselves from fragments of their soul[4] or corpse

Regen and Immortality negation are not abilities anyone who can kill immortality should get, only characters who actually remove their regen or immortality have it. Killing an enemy beyond the point of regeneration does not count for the ability, as stated here. "For negating Type 3 Immortality, killing someone beyond their shown regeneration capabilities would not qualify as it's not nullifying their abilities, but moreso them being destroyed beyond their shown feats of regeneration"

For this reason I don't think it should count for Low Godly regen negation as well as type 2 and 3 immortality, since you permanently defeat them because you destroy them until nothing is left. Also, where in this scan is an enemy restoring itself from a piece of its soul?

or are controlled and brought back[4] by the Lucavi, such was the case of Zalbaag, who was killed by Adrammelech and brought back as an undead puppet by Hashmal, but was completely gone after being defeated by Ramza

How do we know Zalbaag didn't come back because no one resurrected him?

Magick can also kill Ultima, who is above the duality[1] of creation and destruction

Same as above, the scans do not actually say Ultima is above creation and destruction, even if it were true that's not immortality

Reflection and Space-Time Manipulation Negation: Several spells and magickal abilities, such as Meteor[4], Harmony, Ultima, the -ja level Magicks[4], Espers, Geomancy and Iaido[4], bypass the Reflect spell, which creates a Magick reflecting field[9] by inverting space and time.

Shouldn't this be resistance instead of negation?

Instinctive Action: The higher Bravery is, the greater chances of Reaction Abilities from activating[3] upon their conditions being met. These are counter abilities normally triggered when the unit receives an attack or sustains damage. Gameplay-wise, Bravery goes from 1 to 100 and that correlates directly to the chance of activating the Reaction Ability, meaning that an unit with 95 Bravery will have a 95% chance of using it\

Counter attacking after being hit is not instinctive action, even if done automatically

For job abilities

Probability Manipulation: Geomancy (or Feng Shui) is a type of Magick[3] that draws power directly from the earth. The Geomancer can use any element in nature[14] to their advantage in battle due to their knowledge of the theory of the inherent mystical powers of the terrain and their influence on good and bad fortune[1][6] to call forth different sorts of effects. This, however, has the limitation that only a specific type of Geomancy skill can be used when in a certain terrain, which varies depending on the location the Geomancer finds themselves in.

Feng Shui does not involve controlling probability or luck, just making use of the terrain or surrounding area to ward of misfortune. Its not an ability, just a type of skill or field of knowledge

Paralysis Inducement: Sinkhole causes Immobilize by trapping the enemy in a space-time rift. Tanglevine inflicts Stop by trapping them with vines

This should be space-time manipulation, and trapping someone in vines is not paralyzing them, just restraining, which counts as Binding instead though its not an ability listed on the wiki

Free Movement: Ignore Terrain allows the user to walk unimpended in water. Lava Walking allows them to freely walk on lava.

Should be resistance to extreme heat as well, unless they take damage

Social Influencing: Via Speechcraft[11][10] the user can influence and attain different sorts of effects strictly through discourse, rethoric and arguments to manipulate the enemy rather the openly supernatural abilities.

Morality Manipulation: Entice convinces an enemy[5] to become an ally.

Empathic Manipulation: Praise increases bravery by prasing the tagets[5] feats and strengths, Intimidate lowers Bravery by playing on the doubts and fears[5] of the enemy, Preach increases Faith by explaining the divine[5] and Enlighten lowers it by using secular logic

Fate Manipulation and Death Manipulation: Condemn inflicts Doom by convincing the enemy[5] that their demise is at hand

The scan says it utilizes speechcraft, and you said yourself that it is not supernatural. These abilities require you to manipulate them at the supernatural level "Morality Control. A supernatural form of the ability." from the Morality Manipulation page.
Even if speechcraft were supernatural (which is possible, I find it hard to believe someone can convince an enemy they will die through a non supernatural ability so easily), the Doom status is not fate manipulation. Giving someone a countdown to their death should just count for Death Manipulation as they are not altering the future

Mathematics Manipulation (Type 2): Arithmeticks is a science that derives[1] magical phenomena through calculations[14], using mathematics to pinpoint targets anywhere on the field[11][10] based on variables, such as attributes and algorithms. It's possible to use via Arithmetics all spells of different disciplines[3], and due to this unique approach, it can be done so without needing time for casting or concentrating nor spending any magical power, while openly bypassing the normal range limitations of spells.

Utilizing math in combat does not count for mathematics manipulation. From the Mathematics Manipulation page:

• Applied manipulation of mathematics: The ability to manipulate real phenomenons by changing the mathematical rules through which they are described.

No mathematical rules are being changed, they are just using calculations

 

[Eseseso]

Agree with OP. This was some solid cooking.

 

[E6pire]

Bump

 

[Theglassman12]

looks good to me.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Thanks for revising one of the objectively best Final Fantasy games, give us a remake or at least a polished port for current platforms already Square!!!


I'm leaning with agreeing with DDM and Glass's assessment but I'll give the blog a more detailed re-read when I get some more free time.

EDiT: I mostly agree with the additions and fixes but I'm a bit iffy on the non-dual and speechcraft content since the former is a bit too esoteric for me to give an opinion on while the latter is kinda mixed since although it's not magic it does cause unnatural phenomena.

 

[TartaChocholate]

@Hypertornado099: Heyo, first of all thanks for the feedback, not only here but also on the first topic I made time ago, as well as your criticism in the FFVII CRT. Second, sorry for the late reply, been pretty sick lately and the f***er just doesn't want to go away. Gonna do my best here in the meantime, given it's more straightforward here in FFT:

This feels more like higher potency hax rather than manipulating luck

Thing is, it works both ways. Faith not only affects power, but also the chances of inflicting effects, true, but low Faith also decreases the chances of Magick being successful even if the unit is less powerful Magick wise. A rookie warrior with minimal Faith will have very slim chances of being affected by a status spells, while a Mage with absurd magical stats will still have minimal chances of successfully casting Magick if their Faith is too low.

Being released from the principles of the world is not evidence of being non physical, being neither good or evil counts for no ability. This scan says it brings creation, destruction and chaos, not that it is above those dualities. Bringing creation and destruction is not anything notable and bringing chaos is just bringing disorder, which is also not listed as any ability here. His magic "transcending existence and nonexistence" does not mean it also transcends them, and I feel like that doesn't mean anything?

Hmmm... Yeah, it's complicated. Though to be fair I did ask around a lot if this meant anything as I wasn't sure myself. The idea is the whole picture that's made by all the statements brought together as all of them describe Ultima, not isolating and dismissing them individually. Because, that way they of course they won't mean much. The game makes a big deal of how the Lucavi are beyond human comprehension or how their power is absolute, that plus Ultima scaling above Zalera who "trascends" the principles of the world, her being released from them, etc. Essentially I am arguing that Ultima gets Nonduality because of how her descriptions go out of their way to paint a picture to say she's above everything and those everythings happen to be dualities. Also, Magick is not a fully external power, it's sourced in the user's soul and controls certain aspect of reality depending on what type it is, Ultima's openly says it trascends a dual aspect of reality.

Bringing Chaos would be Chaos Manipulation wouldn't it? Ultima does have that for her Chaos command, though.

Regen and Immortality negation are not abilities anyone who can kill immortality should get, only characters who actually remove their regen or immortality have it. Killing an enemy beyond the point of regeneration does not count for the ability, as stated here. "For negating Type 3 Immortality, killing someone beyond their shown regeneration capabilities would not qualify as it's not nullifying their abilities, but moreso them being destroyed beyond their shown feats of regeneration"

For this reason I don't think it should count for Low Godly regen negation as well as type 2 and 3 immortality, since you permanently defeat them because you destroy them until nothing is left. Also, where in this scan is an enemy restoring itself from a piece of its soul?

The Immortality Negation section of the Power Nullification page mentions does mention the following:

The ability to permanently kill an immortal being, or at the very least remove their immortality to the point of being susceptible to any forms of conventional death.

You are right that damaging someone beyond their capabilities of regeneration shouldn't count, but that's not quite what I'm pointing at. In Tactics when you deplete an enemy's HP they don't die, they are critically wounded (shown in-battle by humans falling unconscious, but monsters are reduced to a piece of their bodies, like a bone or a wing) and they survive for 3 more rounds before succumbing to their wounds (shown gameplay wise by turning into a Crystal or a Treasure Chest), however, in story cutscenes when Ramza and co defeat monsters and such, they just die like the Dark Dragon example, all the Lucavi or the ghosts in the haunted forest, the whole bit of surviving as a piece is skipped altogether.

This also is not necessarily done with overwhelming power, many times you can kill the boss with something as mundane as a mere punch or sword strike.

Regarding the ghost enemy, I figured, as ghouls are described as non corporeal beings made of negative energy, the cloak was a part of their body and not something they were wearing. Otherwise I would be assuming they were regenerating from nothing and that felt too extreme.

How do we know Zalbaag didn't come back because no one resurrected him?


Same as above, the scans do not actually say Ultima is above creation and destruction, even if it were true that's not immortality

Mostly, using undead and demons is how the Lucavi fight their battles and it was one of the very first things Hashmal did when confronting Ramza and was too busy to fight himself, Zalera even mentions making Ramza part of his undead army so it's not a one off thing. Hashmal using one of the best warriors in Ivalice, and Ramza's brother for extra kick in the nuts, was completely in character and would be strange he wouldn't resort to it again during the final stage when all of Hashmal's forces were trying to stop Ramza from reaching him.

Regarding Ultima, I explained my reasoning above. On why that qualifies as Immortality, well:

5: Deathless Immortality: Characters who exist unbound by conventional life or death, or do not exist at all, and thus cannot be traditionally killed.

This bit and the whole "released/trascend" the principles ruling the world part including creation and destruction, if we were to accept that bit.

Shouldn't this be resistance instead of negation?

I see your point here. My issue is that only the move itself bypasses reflection and Faith, the user is still susceptible to them instead of withstanding them altogether.

Counter attacking after being hit is not instinctive action, even if done automatically

Does it need to be something to prevent an incoming move, then?

For job abilities


Feng Shui does not involve controlling probability or luck, just making use of the terrain or surrounding area to ward of misfortune. Its not an ability, just a type of skill or field of knowledge

I see what you mean, but I didn't base the ability on real life Feng Shui, rather the description of the game itself:

A warrior who knows the theory of good fortune and misfortune caused by the land. He uses techniques of "Feng Shui" to draw out the mystical power of the terrain.

The implication being that the misfortune and good fortune are part of the powers of the land, which the Geomancers are versed in and can draw to unleash their attacks. It's also why I put it as "minor/limited" given it doesn't have any effect beyond inflicting ailments.

This should be space-time manipulation, and trapping someone in vines is not paralyzing them, just restraining, which counts as Binding instead though its not an ability listed on the wiki

Yeah, I was trying to make it fit withing the wiki's categories the best I could. I mean, you are right, but I couldn't come with a way to fit Sinkhole and Tanglevine in the Status Effect Inducement section otherwise, as the Space-Time Manip and Plant Manip are already listed in what type of terrain power the Geomancer achieves a little further above. Paralysis Inducement was the only catch all term I could think of, the other thing that comes to mind is "Trapping" or something like that or "Binding" like you say and just straight up not link to another page.

Should be resistance to extreme heat as well, unless they take damage

Noted

The scan says it utilizes speechcraft, and you said yourself that it is not supernatural. These abilities require you to manipulate them at the supernatural level "Morality Control. A supernatural form of the ability." from the Morality Manipulation page.
Even if speechcraft were supernatural (which is possible, I find it hard to believe someone can convince an enemy they will die through a non supernatural ability so easily), the Doom status is not fate manipulation. Giving someone a countdown to their death should just count for Death Manipulation as they are not altering the future

My bad, had missed the description mentions it's strictly supernatural means for Morality Manipulation. I'll fix that.

I'm 80% convinced that Condmemn was meant to talk the target into suicide, but was removed for being too dark.

I don't disagree with Doom and Fate Manipulation, though it wasn't my idea, there was a CRT where it was accepted that Doom also counted as Fate Manip, but I just can't find it. I wonder if I'm misremembering or something. I'll keep looking and link it if I find it, otherwise I'll take it out.

Utilizing math in combat does not count for mathematics manipulation. From the Mathematics Manipulation page:

• Applied manipulation of mathematics: The ability to manipulate real phenomenons by changing the mathematical rules through which they are described.

No mathematical rules are being changed, they are just using calculations

This one is tricky as hell and a colossal pain in the buttocks. My argument is that Arithmeticians are creating real phenomena through math and given said phenomena is different than their original counterparts: Magick used by Arithmeticians targets according to variables, and also lacks charging time, has no MP cost and no range limit, math is changing the spell itself. The tricky part was what "derive" ( 導出 doushutsu) means in the description, which can also be translated as origin or source.

That's it for now, sorry for the delay again. Will tackle FFVII when I feel better since it's a lot more complicated.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Thanks for revising one of the objectively best Final Fantasy games, give us a remake or at least a polished port for current platforms already Square!!!


I'm leaning with agreeing with DDM and Glass's assessment but I'll give the blog a more detailed re-read when I get some more free time.

EDiT: I mostly agree with the additions and fixes but I'm a bit iffy on the non-dual and speechcraft content since the former is a bit too esoteric for me to give an opinion on while the latter is kinda mixed since although it's not magic it does cause unnatural phenomena.

FFT needs more love, the game is ripe for a balanced remaster.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..........

I see what you mean, the dilemma is how the status effects had to be tackled with in-game effects, and how that can be classified in abilities given the description between the Orator, the limitations of Social Influencing and the actual effects.

 

[Theglassman12]

For the regen negation stuff, if we're going to argue it's not regen negation for low godly, then we'd need evidence that it would just be full on EE, which implies everyone in tactics has EE casually, and I don't think I need to explain how that's gonna need a lot of evidence to suggest such a thing.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Phoenix down!

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Raise!

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Auto-life

 

[TartaChocholate]

Bumpaga!

Should I leave Orators as Social Influencing or fully embrace the status effects? The clash is between the lore surrounding the Job class which pretty much insists they merely use words, and the gameplay which has to translate said speech into the combat somehow.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Bumpaga!

Should I leave Orators as Social Influencing or fully embrace the status effects? The clash is between the lore surrounding the Job class which pretty much insists they merely use words, and the gameplay which has to translate said speech into the combat somehow.

I'm indifferent, perhaps as a compromise keep speechcraft as SI but with the caveat it works within the rules of a fantasy world. There are real life examples of people becoming ill just because they were convinced by a charismatic individual they're sick, FFT is no different but dialled to a 11.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Good ol' somatization disorder.

So I guess we can leaave the abilities there, and as a compromise, even if the effects are supernatural, if the opponent doesn't fall for words or doesn't take nonsense from their enemies then al of the Orator's abilities would fall flat.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Arise!

Anything else needs to be discussed or waiting for more staff evaluation?

 

[TartaChocholate]

I think stuff is settled when it comes to the proposals? I think more staff evaluation is all what's really left.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Bumpaga!

Should I leave Orators as Social Influencing or fully embrace the status effects? The clash is between the lore surrounding the Job class which pretty much insists they merely use words, and the gameplay which has to translate said speech into the combat somehow.

Maybe both? You could word it as "Fate and Death Manipulation vs Social Influencing," or something like that.

 

[Hypertornado099]

Maybe both? You could word it as "Fate and Death Manipulation vs Social Influencing," or something like that.

If its supernatural, it isn't social influencing

 

[TartaChocholate]

Essentially, Social Influencing cannot achieve abilities like Madness Manipulation or Fear Manipulation, for example, because those are inherently supernatural. And abilities like Madness Manip and Fear Manip cannot be social influencing because that is by default not a supernatural ability.

Hmmmmm...

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Essentially, Social Influencing cannot achieve abilities like Madness Manipulation or Fear Manipulation, for example, because those are inherently supernatural. And abilities like Madness Manip and Fear Manip cannot be social influencing because that is by default not a supernatural ability.

Hmmmmm...

I think someone should do a Q&A on this.

Then we already have characters using social influencing to do supernatural things on the wiki, so I think it should be fine.

Weather Report

Weather Report is an amnesiac prisoner at Green Dolphin Street Jail, sharing a name with his weather-controlling Stand. In truth, he is Domenico Pucci, the mixed twin of Enrico Pucci, who was kidnapped shortly after his birth and raised as Wes Bluemarine. After unknowingly falling in love with...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Hypertornado099]

I think someone should do a Q&A on this.

Then we already have characters using social influencing to do supernatural things on the wiki, so I think it should be fine.

Weather Report

Weather Report is an amnesiac prisoner at Green Dolphin Street Jail, sharing a name with his weather-controlling Stand. In truth, he is Domenico Pucci, the mixed twin of Enrico Pucci, who was kidnapped shortly after his birth and raised as Wes Bluemarine. After unknowingly falling in love with...

vsbattles.fandom.com

That looks like a combination of social influencing and supernatural transmutation, because I highly doubt people in the Jojo universe would turn into snails if some guy told them they were one.

It could actually be the same thing here. Maybe we should ask elsewhere?

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

That looks like a combination of social influencing and supernatural transmutation, because I highly doubt people in the Jojo universe would turn into snails if some guy told them they were one.

The transmutation is caused by people believing they are snails due to the subliminal messaging from the light Heavy Weather puts out, so it's caused by the social influencing, kind of.

It could actually be the same thing here. Maybe we should ask elsewhere?

Yeah, I think someone should do a Q&A about this.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Weather Report is a pretty unique case tbf.

I did make a thread asking about the issue in the Q&A section. Let's see what comes up.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Still haven't got a proper answer on the matter

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

Still haven't got a proper answer on the matter

Maybe we should message some mods to see what they think?

 

[TartaChocholate]

Well, got a proper answer. Even if the effects are still a bit "too much" for what conventionally is Social Influencing, it still qualifies given Orators explicitly use their words to influence people.

Looking around, I also saw cases like Yakko Warner or Spongebob whose social influencing can cause things like driving people insane, make them lose their hostility completely in a moment, make them forget things, instantly like them, etc. Yakko in particular outright has Madness Manipulation alongside his Social Influencing. So supernatural effects can actually go with Social Influencing.

 

[TartaChocholate]

Bump

 

[Hypertornado099]

My final answer is that its both social influencing and supernatural, similar to weather report

 

[TartaChocholate]

Alright, so that one is settled.

...

Just got to that part with Weather Report in Stone Ocean. Dude, what's the deal with Weather Report or Stands in Part 6 in general.

 

[deonment]

Just got to that part with Weather Report in Stone Ocean. Dude, what's the deal with Weather Report or Stands in Part 6 in general.

Araki took a line

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

Araki took a line

More original than "forgetting" at least.

If the speechcraft issue is more or less resolved, this CRT just needs a couple more staff evaluations, perhaps going to the CRT promotion thread might be in order? (I just want Zodiark's profile to be updated from the sorry state it currently is in).

 

[TartaChocholate]

More original than "forgetting" at least.

If the speechcraft issue is more or less resolved, this CRT just needs a couple more staff evaluations, perhaps going to the CRT promotion thread might be in order? (I just want Zodiark's profile to be updated from the sorry state it currently is in).

I actually posted on the CRT Promotion some days ago, though nothing really came out of it. I think I'll try my luck asking some staff directly.

If this goes through then I will make a new, much shorter, CRT for the stats and then can update profiles proper. Ramza and Ultima are more or less done, but I have to get to work on Zodiark's.

 

[ShiftCtrlAltDeleteTabFn]

I still think I agree with the op.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Maverick_Zero_X @Elizhaa your input here would be appreciated .

 

[TartaChocholate]

@Maverick_Zero_X @Elizhaa your input here would be appreciated .

Owe ya another, dude.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Well, got a proper answer. Even if the effects are still a bit "too much" for what conventionally is Social Influencing, it still qualifies given Orators explicitly use their words to influence people.

Looking around, I also saw cases like Yakko Warner or Spongebob whose social influencing can cause things like driving people insane, make them lose their hostility completely in a moment, make them forget things, instantly like them, etc. Yakko in particular outright has Madness Manipulation alongside his Social Influencing. So supernatural effects can actually go with Social Influencing.

I wonder who gave the answer?

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

The CRT looks good