Love Manipulation

[Ayewale]

The wiki's general philosophy regarding powers is that a page gets it's own power when it's prominent and specific enough in fiction that it being absorbed into a higher category would be unhelpfully vague. All Lightning Manipulation is Energy Manipulation, but Lightning is a specific enough ability in fiction to warrant it's own page. All Madness Manipulation is Mind Manipulation, but Madness is a specific enough ability to warrant it's own page.

Empathetic Manipulation currently oversees the ability to control and influence other people's feelings and emotions through supernatural means: a very vague category not unlike Energy and Mind. It currently possesses the subcategory Fear Manipulation, which is perfectly fine: inducing and controlling fear is far and away a pretty notable power in fiction. But we do not have a page for Love Manipulation. Thus the wiki considers Fear Manip more valid than Love Manipulation.

This doesn't work for two reasons:

• Love is just as important an emotion as Fear is as far as psychology goes: it's not some hyper-specific feeling that wouldn't warrant it's own page.
• Love Manipulation is, without a shadow of a doubt, a very prominent ability in fiction, arguably moreso than fear is. Notable examples include:
• Aphrodite (one of the biggest gods in the greek pantheon whose defined almost entirely by this power), Cupid, Sirens from Greek myth, Succubi throughout folklore, Poison Ivy, Queen Bee (DC), Love Potions in general, many different Pokemon moves and abilities, Ember McLain, Sabrina the Teenage Witch, Harry Potter, et cetera. This is a very short list that only tried to pick characters/concepts that were recognizable to most of the users here.

What it comes down to is that there's not really any reason for Fear Manipulation to exist independent of Empathetic Manipulation but Love Manip does not. The only other consistent alternative would be to nuke Fear Manipulation but establishing that as a precedent would probably cause a lot of problems since that, too, is pretty distinct.

Agree: Tllmbrg, Kachon123
Disagree:

 

[Tllmbrg]

Yah I agree

 

[KLOL506]

Some argued that they should all just be merged into Empathic Manip at large.

 

[Ayewale]

Some argued that they should all just be merged into Empathic Manip at large.

Yeah that's no good, both of them combined are far more than distinct and specific enough abilities to get their own pages. They're not redundant at all, it'd be like merging all of lightning into energy or plant into life.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Yeah that's no good, both of them combined are far more than distinct and specific enough abilities to get their own pages. They're not redundant at all, it'd be like merging all of lightning into energy or plant into life.

Don't threaten me with a good time

 

[Kachon123]

I agree with this.

 

[Phoenks]

I disagree and think that Fear and Love should both be merged into Empathic Manipulation. Manipulation of feelings is distinct enough for me already.

 

[Ayewale]

I disagree and think that Fear and Love should both be merged into Empathic Manipulation. Manipulation of feelings is distinct enough for me already.

What do you mean by 'distinct enough'? We add powers to the wiki based off whether that actual specific power is distinct, not whether it's super-category is too specific. Fear and Love Manipulation are extremely common and unique in fiction, and we'd have to get rid of a lot of other powers if we deleted the two of them.

 

[Arkenis]

Idk why we can't merge them and when a character only targets a specific emotion such as love simply put "Limited" in front of Empathic Manipulation.

Fear has a page due to how overwhelmingly big it is in series, the empathic aspect of it isn't really the focal point, its more about the intensity of the fear. Verses like Soul Eater have Asura who's madness of fear targets the soul, not the mind. We have Asnodt who's fear hax goes beyond just the simple emotional aspect and delves into it being instinctual fear. This is also the case with the Primal devils in csm who's entire thing is about fear which stems from humanity not them manipulating one's fear.

If there's an abundance of Love manipulation similar to these then I can see it being fine for adding

 

[Deagonx]

I'm in the "put it all into empathetic manip" camp, personally

 

[Tllmbrg]

Yah we could use reducing P&A page count so

 

[Phoenks]

What do you mean by 'distinct enough'?

Manipulation of feelings is already a distinct enough sub-category of mind manipulation.

Mind Manipulation has enough sub-categories. And there's really no need to make a sub-category of a sub-category of mind manipulation lol.
And feelings as a whole are hardly ever objectively quantifiable anyways. Fear and Love are things only certain people have and nobody feels in the exact same way.

However, we are certain that they are always "feelings." So that's why I think this power is distinct enough without being too specific.

and we'd have to get rid of a lot of other powers if we deleted the two of them.

Okay, so what? I think there's plenty of powers that could also go.

 

[Ayewale]

If there's an abundance of Love manipulation similar to these then I can see it being fine for adding

Yes, that's what my post is about: that Love Manip and Fear Manip have zero difference as far as notability/specificity goes and should both be added.

Mind Manipulation has enough sub-categories. And there's really no need to make a sub-category of a sub-category of mind manipulation lol.

The lines being drawn here are completely arbitrary, there's nothing even close to a rule or policy on how many subcategories a power can have. Mind Manipulation will 'enough' subcategories when every deserving sub-power is on the wiki.

And feelings as a whole are hardly ever objectively quantifiable anyways. Fear and Love are things only certain people have and nobody feels in the exact same way.

However, we are certain that they are always "feelings." So that's why I think this power is distinct enough without being too specific.

What are you talking about? Most haxes on the wiki aren't objectively quantifiable, that has never mattered in regards to whether a power is added or not. Saying that love and fear aren't quantifiable is also pretty untrue: the physiological effects of fear and love are specific and well-understood and can even be measured (both love and fear produce specific chemicals in the brain lol).

Nobody feeling love and fear in the exact same way doesn't matter (and it's also not true: the production of oxytocin when feeling love is basic and pretty universal biology, as is the fight/flight/freeze response when people feel fear). 'Fear and Love are things only certain people have' is also a very strange comment. As far as humans go, virtually everyone feels fear and love barring those with serious complications. They are not things only 'certain people' have, only certain people don't have them, and the vast majority of humans (as well as most characters on the wiki) are more than capable of feeling at least one of the two. And I'm not sure why it'd even matter: we wouldn't get rid of biological manipulation because some characters aren't biological in nature.

 

[Ayewale]

Okay, so what? I think there's plenty of powers that could also go.

Most powers on the wiki pass the notability test a lot less than Love and Fear, so it'd be unreasonable to merge the two into empathetic manip.

Yah we could use reducing P&A page count so

This isn't a good reason to merge some fairly distinct powers.

 

[Arkenis]

Yes, that's what my post is about: that Love Manip and Fear Manip have zero difference as far as notability/specificity goes and should both be added.

Nah love manip like the examples I gave for fear manip is what I think would make it acceptable.

 

[Ayewale]

Fear has a page due to how overwhelmingly big it is in series,

That's why I gave so many examples. Love Manip is pretty big in greek mythology for an immediate example. Love Manipulation is in a lot of series.

If you mean specific types, Poison Ivy would be using biochemical Love Manip, Aphrodite Mystical and Ember McLain Neurological.

 

[Ayewale]

Bump.

 

[Nierre]

I'm also in the camp of merging them into Empathetic Manipulation FRA

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I don't strongly agree with the merge considering emphatic manipulation in itself is a subset of mind manipulation. However, Emphatic manipulation probably needs types if it is to be merged.

Type 1: Love
Type 2: Hate
Type 3: Fear

Something like that.

 

[Omnificence]

Seems pretty pointless to me, but I guess I could see it as a subset of Empathic Manipulation

 

[Arkenis]

I don't strongly agree with the merge considering emphatic manipulation in itself is a subset of mind manipulation. However, Emphatic manipulation probably needs types if it is to be merged.

Type 1: Love
Type 2: Hate
Type 3: Fear

Something like that.

Theres more than three emotion. A better format would be positive emotions and negative emotions

 

[Omnificence]

Theres more than one emotion. A better format would be positive emotions and negative emotions

Not sure it would make much of a difference.

 

[Testarossa002]

If there's an abundance of Love manipulation similar to these then I can see it being fine for adding

In Riordanverse, the God tier love users (cupid and Aphrodite) can make one fall in love with literally anything. Both living thing and non living thing.

Other characters in the verse use love manipulation to do shit like resurrection, technology manipulation , soul manipulation, compulsion, sleep manipulation and so on.

 

[Phoenks]

The lines being drawn here are completely arbitrary, there's nothing even close to a rule or policy on how many subcategories a power can have.

You're right that there isn't really an objective line.

However, that doesn't really prevent me from having the opinion that we shouldn't break down abilities this much, especially down to something as specific as a particular feeling within the scope of the manipulation of feelings.

Regardless of how popular the ability is, I simply don't think we need to take "emotion manipulation" and split it into different emotions.

The same I and many others still think Time Stop should be merged into Time Manipulation, because the ability to manipulate "time" already seems specific enough.

 

[Omnificence]

The same I and many others still think Time Stop should be merged into Time Manipulation, because the ability to manipulate "time" already seems specific enough.

Yeah, I'm in this same boat. I feel like we should start merging the powers and abilities we have in order to save space on this wiki. I mean, we already did so to Fire and Hellfire Manipulation.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Theres more than three emotion. A better format would be positive emotions and negative emotions

It was just an example. Plus the other emotions are derived from those three. Maybe a fourth type for “others” to account for those that aren’t.

 

[Cropfist]

Fold it all into emphatic manipulation, fear manipulation is barely used as is

 

[DontTalkDT]

While love is somewhat more common than other emotions, I think fear is probably a lot more common than love manip.
Like, we have 2370 Empathic Manip. Users and 1781 Fear Manip. Users. If we fused the abilities about 43% of Empathic Manip would be Fear Manip.
My subjective impression is that love manip. probably doesn't quite reach that magnitude.

So, in total, I'm personally fine with the line being where it is.

 

[Phoenks]

While love is somewhat more common than other emotions, I think fear is probably a lot more common than love manip.
Like, we have 2370 Empathic Manip. Users and 1781 Fear Manip. Users. If we fused the abilities about 43% of Empathic Manip would be Fear Manip.
My subjective impression is that love manip. probably doesn't quite reach that magnitude.

So, in total, I'm personally fine with the line being where it is.

To be fair, I'd say that probably 50% or more of all fear manipulation users don't qualify for the ability. Most of them are just social influencers.

 

[Omnificence]

To be fair, I'd say that probably 50% or more of all fear manipulation users don't qualify for the ability. Most of them are just social influencers.

Well, in a way, Social Influencing could be used instill fear into others. Like, if someone were to post something on social media and get attention while also inspiring fear.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

To be fair, I'd say that probably 50% or more of all fear manipulation users don't qualify for the ability. Most of them are just social influencers.

This is very true and there probably needs to be something done about it.

Most of the Fear users are Aura Users and Social Influencers.

 

[Flashlight237]

I personally can agree with OP's proposal. Despite it's somewhat reduced presence compared to fear manip, love manip is pretty much second to fear manip in regards to subsets in terms of prominence, and I'd argue it goes as far as how prominent the roles of love and fear are in Valentine's Day and Halloween respectively. There's a bigger picture to look at than the workings of fiction in regards to both love and fear; something I generally couldn't say for practically every other ability on this site or even other forms of empathic manipulation.

 

[Cropfist]

Sirens from Greek myth, Succubi throughout folklore, Poison Ivy

These are lust manipulation, not love.

 

[Armorchompy]

Honestly I really hate calling it "Love Manipulation" like it's something romantic when the power is usually pretty rapey and immoral, if you have to make it call it "Supernatural Seduction" or something.

But also like we really don't need this man, just list it as Empathic Manip

 

[DontTalkDT]

To be fair, I'd say that probably 50% or more of all fear manipulation users don't qualify for the ability. Most of them are just social influencers.

Which makes me want to give all these people empathic manipulation even less.

 

[Jinx666]

We have had a 'Seduction Users' category for that sense of empathic manipulation, though it also seems to just include characters that try to flirt or charm their opponent in general without needing a forceful magic or smthn

 

[Ayewale]

These are lust manipulation, not love.

Not a really meaningful difference, it's love manipulation by most uses of the word.

However, that doesn't really prevent me from having the opinion that we shouldn't break down abilities this much, especially down to something as specific as a particular feeling within the scope of the manipulation of feelings.

This is still frustratingly vague. Is there an actual reason why Love Manipulation isn't distinct enough beyond an arbitrary cutoff for what is and isn't too much of a subdivision?

While love is somewhat more common than other emotions, I think fear is probably a lot more common than love manip.
Like, we have 2370 Empathic Manip. Users and 1781 Fear Manip. Users. If we fused the abilities about 43% of Empathic Manip would be Fear Manip.
My subjective impression is that love manip. probably doesn't quite reach that magnitude.

So, in total, I'm personally fine with the line being where it is.

Is it? Love Manipulation's a very ubiquitous power in fiction, and a lot of our fear manipulation pages are social influencing anyways. I feel like my OP at least makes it clear that there's probably quite a lot of love manip on the wiki and in fiction in general.

Regardless of how popular the ability is, I simply don't think we need to take "emotion manipulation" and split it into different emotions.

"Regardless of how popular the ability is" is ridiculous, there is literally no other metric we use for powers apart from how popular they are. None. You're making an appeal to intuition here that could be used to get rid of every single supernatural power on the wiki. "I don't feel like we need anything other than 'supernatural abilities', so we should get rid of it." The reason why we don't do that is because we index powers that are notable/common enough to be worth indexing. Which Love Manipulation is.

 

[Ayewale]

I don't strongly agree with the merge considering emphatic manipulation in itself is a subset of mind manipulation. However, Emphatic manipulation probably needs types if it is to be merged.

Type 1: Love
Type 2: Hate
Type 3: Fear

Something like that.

Hate seems far too specific compared to the other two. Not the biggest fan of merging them all into Empathetic Manip anyways since they're far and away distinct enough to stand out.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Which makes me want to give all these people empathic manipulation even less.

Should Fear Manipulation be removed and its examples split between Empathic Manipulation and Social Influencing, then?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Should Fear Manipulation be removed and its examples split between Empathic Manipulation and Social Influencing, then?

You really want to make CRTs to decide whether 1700 characters should have fear manipulation or not all at once?
Because I don't. That's a massive wiki project for something not worth it.
Like, we should improve the situation if necessary, but not via a mass revision but by gradual changes.