Spiritual Energy Manipulation - Celebrating the Release of Final Fantasy VII: Rebirth

[Theglassman12]

The lifestream having another concept hax feat for the series in general with its world of mako having the concepts of space and time being different. the devils road thing is the main feat for magic users generally having this, so the argument that no one remotely scales to having concept hax in the verse is unfounded when we’ve gotten that for 1-6 for a while.

 

[deonment]

@deonment The dimension hopper that can utilize his powers rather easily despite going in different worlds whose rules are supposedly different. The fact he’s capable of this alongside the Dissidia events being canon where anyone and everyone can still utilize their magics in realities that don’t belong to them despite said lore difference says otherwise.

Creating universes isn’t the point I’m focusing on, the point is the lifestream extends across numerous realities with its description on how it can spread across and create realities, meaning this wouldn’t stem to only 7 stuff. Also Gilgamesh literally materialized from a whisper of fate when he sees Sephiroth for the first time, so the principles cross over for each other.

Like what? Because you do realize 6 and 7 both share the same story point of people being injected with magic to create super soldiers that can have severe side effects right?

Magic in 4 is accepted as projecting your mind onto reality to produce the desired effects. Of course, that wouldn't be affected by existing in a different reality.
Characters from 7 draw upon the spiritual energy inside them to cast magic so that isn't a useful argument either. I literally do not remember a mainline game where the characters do not draw upon some fashion of either internal or personal source to cast magic, so once more that isn't a useful argument.

Yeah, but it isn't responsible for 4's world so why should we presume that magic cast using it as a base shares the same mechanics as 4's magic. Yeah, he was manifested using it, but Gilgamesh quite literally didn't use magic during that fight. Hell, I'm decently sure he doesn't use it during his entire tenure in 7.

That doesn't mean the sources they draw upon are equivalent in the properties they grant.

Apart from that however, I still wish to see some kind of response from you or tarta on my original post

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

@Rakih_Elyan Anyone tied to the lifestream itself like Sephiroth and the summons like Minerva and several others yes when their source of power is the lifestream itself

You don't address this point.

Can any of its Conceptual Manipulation actually used by its user?

In my opinion, this is similar to a god can use mana to create a dimension doesn't mean every mortal mana user can create dimension.

World of Mako in my opinion is an unique case. Not everyone can replicate it's concept Manip.

 

[Theglassman12]

@deonment How does that refute the point that magic doesn't cross scale in the verse when they function the same across? Do you have any references for any characters saying that one's magic in one world is not the exact same as the others in how it functions because that just proves they share the same characteristics.

Why does gilgamesh himself not showing to cast magic in 7 refute anything when this is still the exact same gilgamesh across the entire series? The same one who can still use haste, protect and shell to boost himself. Again you're gonna need to refute the fact that this Gilgamesh isn't the same if you wanna argue this doesn't cross scale because him being a whisper of fate despite not coming from 7's world would mean this extends across other realities.

That's not an argument, you're gonna need to say more than just "doesn't mean they're the same" when they have a clear similarity with one another.

Don't really care much about the rest of your points, that's all on Tarta, I only care for the concept hax stuff since it ties to what the other games have in the first place.

@Rakih_Elyan Did you read my scan or no? Read the post because I literally showed you magic users being able to affect concepts.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

@Rakih_Elyan Did you read my scan or no? Read the post because I literally showed you magic users being able to affect concepts.

The scan you show me is concerning the magic of FF I-VI not lifestream.

 

[Theglassman12]

The lifestream that expands on numerous realities and includes someone from 1-6, again your point being? You’re just moving the goalpost at this point.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

The lifestream that expands on numerous realities and includes someone from 1-6, again your point being? You’re just moving the goalpost at this point.

I see.

Let me ask, is the magic used in FF 1-6 similar to the one used from Lifestream in 7?

The point is, do we really have to give all of Lifestream user concept manipulation simply because there some world created from Lifestream that have different concepts of space and time?

And no, you didn't even address most of my post there.

In my opinion, this is similar to a god can use mana to create a dimension doesn't mean every mortal mana user can create dimension.

World of Mako in my opinion is an unique case. Not everyone can replicate it's concept Manip.

It is about "How" not the substance of lifestream itself is giving you a CM. The world of Mako have different concepts of time and space translated to almost everyone that use it have CM? I can't see your logic here.

I really question FF 1-6 concept Manip at this point. That a topic for another CRT.

 

[Smashtwig]

I should also ask another question, isn't Gilgamesh the universe hopping guy? Is he anything special in his verse that would make him an exception to the rules of how magic rules apply- or is he still normal enough to his home world (plz post evidence lol cuz im not familiar with anything outside VII).

That was a poorly worded question, but my main concern is, isn't Gilgamesh a special boi and therefore, an exception/outlier that shouldn't be used as a means to scale the same powers to everyone else from 1-6?

 

[Cyberblader90]

bump

 

[Theglassman12]

@Rakih_Elyan You're not even addressing how someone with access to the lifestream would not scale to any abilities the lifestream itself has in the first place. Your example of someone using mana to make a dimension isn't remotely viable when they're using the same power source in the first place, plus I even said this would just tie to those who's directly linked to the lifestream itself like sephiroth or Minerva, who's literally the manifestation of the lifestream itself. Literally how exactly is the world of mako a unique case, the world of mako was made by the lifestream itself, that's where mako comes from in the first place, If you know the most basic of FF7 lore you'd know Mako is an energy source that stems from the lifestream. Plus the whole "you need to show the concept hax happening for the users to get concept hax" doesn't make any sense when several other verses didn't need that spelled out for us for them to have concept hax in the first place for their magic.

@Smashtwig Gilgamesh is literally a random demon general that worked with Exdeath until he got fired and was thrown into the void because he sucked at beating the FF5 crew's ass. The only thing about him you could remotely argue is unique is the fact that he hops between realms to fight anyone else that's strong, but even then Strangers of Paradise has the main villain of FF2 show up from another dimension in the FF1 world, so this thing isn't really special/significant to gilgamesh to begin with. Hell there's some other bosses that appear across games like Ultros and Typhon who appears in 13, and Omega who's appeared in numerous FF games as the same superboss. Gilgamesh is just far more recognizable than the others since he has dialogue with the characters on top of actually referencing the worlds he's appeared in.

 

[LazerDim8000]

Gilgamesh is literally a random demon general that worked with Exdeath until he got fired and was thrown into the void because he sucked at beating the FF5 crew's ass. The only thing about him you could remotely argue is unique is the fact that he hops between realms to fight anyone else that's strong, but even then Strangers of Paradise has the main villain of FF2 show up from another dimension in the FF1 world, so this thing isn't really special/significant to gilgamesh to begin with.

Dimension hopping isn’t a regular ability accessible to everyone. In Stranger of Paradise a Lufenian describes Gilgamesh as a singularity. Mateus was post-Dissidia amped and possibly utilized the same portal as Mog from the world of chaos of harmony, we shouldn't assume regular magic users can open portals to the rift.

 

[LazerDim8000]

Hell there's some other bosses that appear across games like Ultros and Typhon who appears in 13, and Omega who's appeared in numerous FF games as the same superboss.

Most times it’s just homage

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

@Rakih_Elyan You're not even addressing how someone with access to the lifestream would not scale to any abilities the lifestream itself has in the first place.

Well, because the CM in my opinion is just a matter of "How" it is not very nature of Lifestream itself.

plus I even said this would just tie to those who's directly linked to the lifestream itself like sephiroth or Minerva, who's literally the manifestation of the lifestream itself.

So it wouldn't scale to everyone?

Plus the whole "you need to show the concept hax happening for the users to get concept hax" doesn't make any sense when several other verses didn't need that spelled out for us for them to have concept hax in the first place for their magic.

All Chinamen verse that I know and scale have CM clearly implied and shown to be used by the user, so I never known any verse like you said.

 

[Theglassman12]

@G33kedzinx I'm not arguing that literally everyone in FF can dimension hop, I'm arguing that the mere idea of dimension hopping isn't exclusively a gilgamesh thing when several other characters have done so too, and with Ultros and Typhon they're nearly the exact same character in 13 as they were in 6 and the context for them is that they're in a realm outside of space and time where warriors across dimensions come to fight in 13-2.

@Rakih_Elyan That still doesn't explain shit.

What do you think I was talking about when I said "Personally I'd argue the high end lifestream stuff would scale to those that are manifestations of magic itself rather than just everyone everyone".

Then you haven't seen God of War where they don't spell it out that characters specifically manipulate concepts of the soul for anyone who's magic is tied to soul hax scaling to concept hax. Again this goalpost moving where you want it to be spelled out that they're using the concepts of space and time is stupid when no other verse has this level of scrutiny with how one uses magic that has conceptual properties in it.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

@Rakih_Elyan That still doesn't explain shit.

I can't explain shit. My English is limited lol.

What do you think I was talking about when I said "Personally I'd argue the high end lifestream stuff would scale to those that are manifestations of magic itself rather than just everyone everyone".

I agree with this then.

Then you haven't seen God of War where they don't spell it out that characters specifically manipulate concepts of the soul for anyone who's magic is tied to soul hax scaling to concept hax.

Haven't played GoW 3 and above. But souls being Conceptual is just an old tropes.

Again this goalpost moving where you want it to be spelled out that they're using the concepts of space and time is stupid when no other verse has this level of scrutiny with how one uses magic that has conceptual properties in it.

My apologies then, it just I can't really see the logic there.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Rakih_Elyan Souls being conceptual is not an old trope, otherwise literally everyone with soul hax on the site would've had concept hax to begin with. They literally have like several statements with conceptual nature with souls and how magic works and is tied to the soul, the characters having it spelled out for us that their magic has soul/concept hax is not remotely required for them to have concept/soul hax in the first place.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

@Rakih_Elyan Souls being conceptual is not an old trope, otherwise literally everyone with soul hax on the site would've had concept hax to begin with. They literally have like several statements with conceptual nature with souls and how magic works and is tied to the soul, the characters having it spelled out for us that their magic has soul/concept hax is not remotely required for them to have concept/soul hax in the first place.

I understand.

 

[Smashtwig]

Aside from the current conversation, these are good to go for at least the FF7 files right? We can add em?

 

[AlphaOmegaV1]

Aside from the current conversation, these are good to go for at least the FF7 files right? We can add em?

As it stands we have 5 agrees, two from staff members.

Myself, DDM, Milly, Rutaehh, and Glass.

 

[Smashtwig]

How many staffs and normies do we need?

I'm gonna add myself into the agree, but I do wanna say that personally i think EE should be in the "falling into the Lifestream" Resistances, it removes all individuality and only leaves some knowledge behind that no longer really comprises "you" and is just Spiritual Energy of someone that existed at some point

 

[Theglassman12]

We have Planck being neutral to agreeing with the thread, so 2.5-3 staff members so it's enough for additions unless there's more to discuss here.

 

[Smashtwig]

Well we should add the VII stuff first since that at the very least is universally agreed upon

Meanwhile yall can still discuss the gil 1-6 cross scaling stuff


Im gonna be assumIng Tarta got the changes and i dont gotta lift a finger lol

 

[AlphaOmegaV1]

Don't know about everyone but there is a revamped profile for Sephiroth that's pretty much ready to go, barring a few minor tweaks.

 

[Theglassman12]

7’s pages in general would need a bit of a revamp, but that’s for another time.

 

[AlphaOmegaV1]

I just meant prepared profiles. Tarta has a new one for Sephiroth pretty much ready. Don't know if he has one for the rest of the cast.

 

[TartaChocholate]

There's this for Sephiroth and something of a progress for Cloud. But the latter is far from done (honestly RPG heroes have so much darn crap on them), and Sephy is still lacking scans and references for his abilities (I have them, but have to go and actually put them on his profile)

There's also that there's actually other two verse powers (Materia and Jenova) that I need to propose in a CRT before profiles are done. Though Materia is pretty short and Jenova is pretty straightforward (I think)

 

[Theglassman12]

honestly RPG heroes have so much darn crap on them

You must accept the grindset if you want proper results.

 

[TartaChocholate]

You must accept the grindset if you want proper results.

Aye, aye, cap'n.

The good thing is that most of the equipment and the entirety of the Materia sections can just be copy pasted between characters.

Nothing, though can beat the absolute nightmare that was making Ramza's Standard Equipment and Notable Techniques section, though.

 

[Smashtwig]

something of a progress for Cloud.

Just realized you didn't include his match history- do these changes invalidate the matches he's been in cuz he'd just... stomp now?

 

[TartaChocholate]

Just realized you didn't include his match history- do these changes invalidate the matches he's been in cuz he'd just... stomp now?

Ah, not quite, I simply haven't properly worked on anything from the Equipment section onwards. I still think it would be better to properly ask in the Marchup removal thread before anything

 

[Theglassman12]

If the page is getting a massive rework in general you don’t really need to ask for the matches to be removed since it’s gonna be outdated by default.

 

[Smashtwig]

If the page is getting a massive rework in general you don’t really need to ask for the matches to be removed since it’s gonna be outdated by default.

Oh. I thought it depended on the guys the person was fighting. If the new changes don't actually affect the match then there's no reason to remove the match right

 

[Eseseso]

What is it going to take to get more staff to look at this thread? One more agreement and we're done!

 

[TartaChocholate]

Oh. I thought it depended on the guys the person was fighting. If the new changes don't actually affect the match then there's no reason to remove the match right

Yeah, should be. Though if the changes go through it would be worth giving another shot to the matches. And totally not because Gunvolt vs Cloud is a personal favorite of mine.

What is it going to take to get more staff to look at this thread? One more agreement and we're done!

Wait, really?

 

[Eseseso]

Yeah, should be. Though if the changes go through it would be worth giving another shot to the matches. And totally not because Gunvolt vs Cloud is a personal favorite of mine.

Wait, really?

IIRC Glass said there were 2 voting staff who agreed and one who was neutral but leaned agreeing.

 

[Smashtwig]

I gotchu

 

[Smashtwig]

... I did not "gotchu"

 

[TartaChocholate]

... I did not "gotchu"

You got what now?

 

[Smashtwig]

N o t h i n g

Good luck finding one more staff lol

 

[Eseseso]

N o t h i n g

Good luck finding one more staff lol

Try asking @Sir_Ovens