Overlord_Darkness
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No. This is because he existed forever, but time and all of reality had a beginning.
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Ninjago Abilities Update
- Thread starter Minaaaa
- Start date
EL_xWatcher1234x
He/Him- 2,006
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It's confusing, they keep using Darkness, Evil, Overlord interchangeably. We know that the Overlord is the enemy of the Master of Spinjitsu. What the opposite of True Light?
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He can influence Creation without Golden Power, too…
And there is no proof that Overlord is superior to those dimensions. Even if he was, he would simply have BDE Type 2, not Low 1-C.
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Darkness in this context means figuratively Evil. Overlord being interchangeable with the word Evil simply confirms AE Type 1. His Crystal Form, for example, is just a shell he can change at will, as stated by himself.
Exactly. Also, their fight is always described as the battle between Good and Evil.
EL_xWatcher1234x
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I thought BDE get you L1-C, but after reading it I agree.
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EL_xWatcher1234x
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Is there a discussion thread for Ninjago ?
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Overlord_Darkness
Username Only- 910
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BUMP.
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EL_xWatcher1234x
He/Him- 2,006
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Bump
Robespierre_Isidore
They/Them- 54
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I agree with almost everything...
I disagree with 2 parts: Immortality type 9 and Concept Manip
9: Transcendental Immortality: Characters whose true selves exist independently from the plane where they can be killed.
Your evidence is
we know if a soul's physical form is destroyed, the soul in question will either be sent to the Cursed Realm, Underworld, or Departed Realm.
<- all realms are connected and per the blog post: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:MadamRider/Elemental_Powers you are using they can affect the Overlord as a spirit "Elemental masters can harm intangible beings like ghosts."
For staff/mods who are currently neutral about the CM I would like you all to consider:
Now the Balance itself is made up of Light and Dark, subsequent pieces to the 'concept' they participate in the creation of Balance from what Minaaaa is presenting and too much of one can destroy the other and with it the Balance. This would fit closer to the wiki definition in CM type 2
CM 1 would be; you can destroy the Balance in the reality you are in by interacting with the Balance thusly destroying it and all that participates in the Balance, and the Balance exists whether the physical universe exists or not
CM 2 would be; you can destroy the Balance in the reality you are in by interacting with the idea of the Balance and thusly destroy the Balance much like in CM1 but the idea of Balance can be remade, or you could destroy each individual piece of the Balance and destroy the Balance in doing so but... this does not qualify for Type 2.
From the CM page:
Type 2: ..."In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods."
Non-Qualifying Concepts: "Indirect manipulation of concepts, such as the universal changing of the object, does not qualify as conceptual manipulation."
Destroying the Balance by making all Darkness or removing all Light is an indirect method as it is a universal change. It does not qualify for CM.
In addition, we just have the word of the characters and no actual proof of manipulating these concepts
Conclusion: The CRT is fine save Immortality 9 and CM1, the immortality shown is less so an actual different plane of existence and rather a form of undead immortality the evidence provided misses the mark for Concept Manipulation 1 and/or a revision to CM 2 due to: (1) being a Non-qualifier by definition and (2) CM type 1 has been disagreed with in the past as well for a different set of non-conceptual reasons in this CRT from 14-02-2024 (this year not even a full 2 months) dictating it to be more a form of Energy than it is a conceptual power according the guides provided and shown in that CRT some of which have resurfaced here and the conclusion of staff there in which more detail involving Elements, Light and Darkness being energies that can alter the Balance further push towards the Non-Qualifier result.
With humble regards,
Isidore Robespierre
I disagree with 2 parts: Immortality type 9 and Concept Manip
9: Transcendental Immortality: Characters whose true selves exist independently from the plane where they can be killed.
Your evidence is
This is more likely Immortality type 7 Undead immortality
we know if a soul's physical form is destroyed, the soul in question will either be sent to the Cursed Realm, Underworld, or Departed Realm.
<- all realms are connected and per the blog post: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:MadamRider/Elemental_Powers you are using they can affect the Overlord as a spirit "Elemental masters can harm intangible beings like ghosts."
For staff/mods who are currently neutral about the CM I would like you all to consider:
Now the Balance itself is made up of Light and Dark, subsequent pieces to the 'concept' they participate in the creation of Balance from what Minaaaa is presenting and too much of one can destroy the other and with it the Balance. This would fit closer to the wiki definition in CM type 2
CM 1 would be; you can destroy the Balance in the reality you are in by interacting with the Balance thusly destroying it and all that participates in the Balance, and the Balance exists whether the physical universe exists or not
CM 2 would be; you can destroy the Balance in the reality you are in by interacting with the idea of the Balance and thusly destroy the Balance much like in CM1 but the idea of Balance can be remade, or you could destroy each individual piece of the Balance and destroy the Balance in doing so but... this does not qualify for Type 2.
From the CM page:
Type 2: ..."In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods."
Non-Qualifying Concepts: "Indirect manipulation of concepts, such as the universal changing of the object, does not qualify as conceptual manipulation."
Destroying the Balance by making all Darkness or removing all Light is an indirect method as it is a universal change. It does not qualify for CM.
In addition, we just have the word of the characters and no actual proof of manipulating these concepts
Conclusion: The CRT is fine save Immortality 9 and CM1, the immortality shown is less so an actual different plane of existence and rather a form of undead immortality the evidence provided misses the mark for Concept Manipulation 1 and/or a revision to CM 2 due to: (1) being a Non-qualifier by definition and (2) CM type 1 has been disagreed with in the past as well for a different set of non-conceptual reasons in this CRT from 14-02-2024 (this year not even a full 2 months) dictating it to be more a form of Energy than it is a conceptual power according the guides provided and shown in that CRT some of which have resurfaced here and the conclusion of staff there in which more detail involving Elements, Light and Darkness being energies that can alter the Balance further push towards the Non-Qualifier result.
DDM in the previous thread you agreed with the argument from Mr. Bambu about it not being CM and after reading his questions in the matter I would be inclined to agree with statements from Mr. Bambu about it from the previous CRT.
With humble regards,
Isidore Robespierre
Minaaaa
She/Her- 323
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- Thread starter
- #91
Immortality Type 9 comes from his spirit form (his true form) existing outside the human plane of existence.I agree with almost everything...
I disagree with 2 parts: Immortality type 9 and Concept Manip
9: Transcendental Immortality: Characters whose true selves exist independently from the plane where they can be killed.
Your evidence is
Except this is for different reasons as ive shown that Light and Darkness are literal concepts in the verse
- An imbalance of light and dark means something is wrong with the universe itself
- The shifting of the balance poses a threat to not only the universe, but the multiverse
- The Balance of Light and Dark are both needed to keep the universe stable
- A shift in darkness could have effects on the universe but also a shift in light could also
- The Overlord is needed for The Balance to stay intact so it would be hes the literal concept of darkness
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I agree
EL_xWatcher1234x
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After rereading, the balance is more similar to type 2, because it's a concept influenced by the reality it govern.
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It is only affected by another concept aka Overlord
EL_xWatcher1234x
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The condition of the realms influence the balance, right?
That's why it's not independent, Overlord only spread evil and darkness without influencing the balance directly.
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I feel it's more of the presence Overlord has in those Realms. This is why getting rid of Overlord would upset Balance too much, and wishing to do so will result in Nadakhan perishing.
EL_xWatcher1234x
He/Him- 2,006
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It's still done corrupting the realms.
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Yeah by the concept with AE T1
EL_xWatcher1234x
He/Him- 2,006
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That's why it's not CM, he must corrupt the balance directly.
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His powers litteraly do
EL_xWatcher1234x
He/Him- 2,006
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For the last time, he is an AE type 1(concept type 1 darkness,evil...), but corrupting the balance through the realms is not CM. also the balance being the influenced by the realms will make it type 2 concept.
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Again, it's more of how much presence Overlord has. This is why completely getting rid of him will upset the Balance… He can also destroy the Balance directly btw so it's CM either way
But not an expert so may be you are right
EL_xWatcher1234x
He/Him- 2,006
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Agree with this, and possibly the balance bein concept type 2.
Maybe If you could found something that prove: Light and Darkness>The balance and the realms(time...) you could give them type 1, but instead of matter and energy you must mention the abstract aspects of Light and Darkness like good and evil...
Even if it was CM, it will be type 2, because the balance fit type 2.He can also destroy the Balance directly btw so it's CM either way
But not an expert so may be you are right
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Robespierre_Isidore
They/Them- 54
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Where? Where does in anything you've shown state or demonstrate Light and Darkness being metaphysical in a capacity akin to concepts?
They are no different than Protons and Electrons just as magical elemental forces. If one added too much energy into a system, it would become fundamentally flawed and could just like the Balance throw things out of order. For an example from real life, if one adds too much kindle to a fire it smothers the flame just as if one has too much flame it runs out of fuel possibly in the extreme running out of oxygen or any gas to keep it going.
Darkness is a direct parallel to Light, Light which is the Golden Power which is made up of the fundamental elements Earth, Lightning, Fire and Ice ... it has not gained anything special in the realm of the abstract, it simply affects all basic elements Earth Lightning Fire and Ice and can create results such as gravity or creation or other elements in Ninjago.. This is not concept manipulation, this is matter manipulation with extra steps through elemental manipulation. Darkness by extension of the system is just more magic/energy, not an idea.
Now the question comes has Darkness shown anything really that is conceptual in the way it is presented or the evidence you've shown? No not really.
For an analogy:
-We are made up of varied electrical charges and partake in the concept of electricity, however if someone alters the electrical charge near us they can hurt us sure but that does not grant them power over the concept of electricity.
-If someone has the power to affect the fundamental abstraction of electricity it will either instantly delete the concept and thus all parts that partook in it, delete the concept and thusly rid it from everything but if someone zaps themself cause you could remake static charge the concept should be back in existence essentially, OR by the concept of electricity they just mean any electricity made by a power plant or only ionic charges.
-If someone walked up to me and said they can make the concept of a town disappear but just nuke it indirectly killing me and anyone who weren't directly in the blast but were close enough too it, this isn't concept manipulation regardless of the domino effects caused by the fallout
In this previous analogy the way Darkness is used as a nuke which can kill the Balance (town) and harm those not in the blast (The Balance being destroyed leading to the destruction of a lot of things and thats if he meant it literally which I am pretty sure he did)
Now let's cut more fetters out of the way; if you have something being the embodiment of something does that make it conceptual: not in the way you are wanting it currently unless it directly or explicitly is shown.
-If I have the embodiment of space in my hand what is this? It is a representation of an idea not the actual idea itself unless directly stated to be the idea itself. If something is stated to be evil incarnate that does not inherently mean something is the concept of evil.
-Evil is a tangible substance in Ninjago too (https://ninjago.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_Matter)
-Is Darkness Evil or any of this conceptual in nature? No.
When we say concepts there are 3 we need to focus on
Concept type 1: we mean an abstract fundamental idea of reality that without participating in the reality itself dictate said reality (Think a concept from Platonism with the theory of forms if you are familiar with those)
Concept type 2: We mean an abstract fundamental idea of reality that MUST participate in the reality it is depicted in THAT dictates the reality of its idea. (Aristotelian Concepts in easy understanding)
Concept type 3: We mean an abstract fundamental idea of reality that does not meet the criteria of 1 or 2. (The subjective interpretation of the concept of what is long)
Darkness, Light, and the Balance do not really qualify as you have shown them (nor do they from what the show has shown). These are just cosmic forces for the Ninjago setting, not conceptual manipulation.
This one, okay so on his page he already has type 1,3,8 (Eternal Life, Immortality via Regen, and Reliant Immortality) let me help you with this
We don't know if the spirit form is located in the Overlord's Void or somewhere else
We also actually don't know the location of the Overlord's Void so we actually can't establish if it exists beyond the realms or what they mean by outside the human plane of existence. So, does human plane of existence just mean Ninjago? Does it mean in between? Does it mean outside of the Ethereal Divide? Is it just a part of the Departed Lands? Is it in Space? Is it a temple? Is it hidden in a book that has been lost for thousands of years?? Where is it?
After all, before The Merge it could have existed as a realm opposite the Grasslands, as far as we know he could just have a 'dark matter sub-space'. This dubiousness of 'human plane' (which I haven't noted any other notable instances of this word choice in the series so far) coupled with the Overlord's Void leaves something to be desired, though let's posit it means it was just in a different realm or in the Ethereal Divide originally between the Departed and Ninjago realms, this would be fine if you can substantiate the point with some scans for where the location is. So naturally, the question of Post Merge location comes to mind as if it is now part of the Merged Lands then it no longer would qualify for when we see the dormant Overlord next.
If you insist for the Type 9 I can see the argument for it, however I would like something more personally than just a singular phrase from what you are showing currently as it is dubious and does not tell us a manner in which to address how it is transcendental. If you can further provide evidence to the claim outside of just the one you've provided I would be interested.
Robespierre_Isidore
They/Them- 54
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Is it really the concept of evil? Or just the moral systems of Wu and the FSM that deem his behavior evil? After all Dark Matter exists as does 'evil that flows through viens', so what makes this a concept of evil or darkness? Is it the urge to do something or just the fact it makes it vaguely purple in Ninjago? (can't believe Ninjago is racist to purple people)
There will come a time when any verse that gets a lot passed through or written on their pages gets held at point and found lacking. It is better to be reasonable about the ordeal for the long term rather than sacrifice everyone's time by seeing how high you can fly Icarus.
EL_xWatcher1234x
He/Him- 2,006
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Not much of a Ninjago fan, my replies were based on their explanation.
Agree
EL_xWatcher1234x
He/Him- 2,006
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What about duality?
Robespierre_Isidore
They/Them- 54
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That is part of a problem you see in this sort of thing, you can get a lot of people presenting a verse a certain way and no one else has really gone and grabbed research but when you talk to non-Battleboarders normal fans they look at you like you are crazy, I've seen this a few times. I've been rewatching Ninjago with some friends of mine who have seen every episode multiple times. When I see something like 'Darkness and Light being concepts' I tell them and they laugh at how silly it sounds in the context of the show.
While my Icarus line 'slaps' it isn't just for you but a lot of people who do this. I saw it with Hell's Paradise before the anime came out, I've seen it for DBGT, and various other things (mostly stuff that either few people cared about in total OR something new/inconvenient to look up that is riddled with issues and out of context scans)
I've seen someone try and argue Muzan from Demon Slayer was Universal in power before and that he was MFTL+ cause they wanted to see how high they could push it, in doing so they lost friends and credibility.
I just hope others besides just yourself get what I mean though without dealing with the problems I've seen.
Thank you man.
Robespierre_Isidore
They/Them- 54
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Also, likely not applicable.
So assuming the system of Ninjago works as we have been presented: 'good and evil being in balance' then lines like the Overlord's Darkness relying on Creation and all having Light and Dark renders the series set in the dualistic system of 'light and dark'. In addition, not one person in the series currently is immune from parts of the system, Zane back held the Overlord when he was in the form of the Golden Master and that just pushed him back using the Golden Power and predominantly ice given the sudden freeze we see after the explosion..
Specific Nonduality: Characters existing in a nondual state regarding one or more specific dual systems. This type of nonduality immunizes the user against attacks and haxes bound by the specific dual systems in question. <- no single character has this one let alone any of the higher forms.
EL_xWatcher1234x
He/Him- 2,006
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Especially when a staff member give a fan the green light without knowing much about the verse.
This will only apply for Master of Spinjitsu and the Overlord, right?
Robespierre_Isidore
They/Them- 54
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Yes, this big time. I could go on about that and other vague calcs that people try and use for things... but I do appreciate the staff here they typically do a good job of making sure things remain with quality and dignity which is such a huge thing.
Well, the Overlord (who was using the name of the Golden Master from my previous post) doesn't qualify for it is the thing and Wu's father the First Master of Spinjitsu or FSM also has parts of the Balance within him according to Wu so no there as well. They are basically the top of the verse and no other high tier demonstrates it nor anyone in particular from what I can recall.
Minaaaa
She/Her- 323
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- Thread starter
- #112
Except these forces are literal abstract concepts that govern all of reality, without the balance of Light and Darkness, the universe itself is out of balance. these balance between these two are pivotal to the universe itself, meaning The Balance is the literal combination of these two forces, and given that The Overlord has always existed from the very beginning, means he brought the literal concepts of darkness and evil into the world.
I don't get the argument for this. The scan means exactly what it means, the overlord's spirit form exists outside the human plane of existence (The universe). this is pretty cut and dry and fits with immortality type 9
Again i don't understand this one. Yes, The Overlord is the literal concept of evil, if evil exists, the overlord will come back
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Dark Matter is not evil itself, it was never confirmed. The Overlord was stated many times to be Evil itself and source of all evil. (Pretty sure scans were sent under this CRT)
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I mean Wu and Tommy Andreason makes it clear he is the concept of evil
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