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Spiritual Energy Manipulation - Celebrating the Release of Final Fantasy VII: Rebirth

TartaChocholate

TartaChocholate

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A little over a year and a half of work on this, woo! Was actually planning to do this CRT before the release of Rebirth but it took more time than I expected. Now for Rebirth to debunk all my hard work.

Many thanks to @AlphaOmegaV1 for help through the months and @Theglassman12 for some very important and consistent feedback. Also to @Cyberblader90 for the original idea of a whole section of the blog I shamelessly stole.

Sooo, the proposal here is a new verse ability for Final Fantasy VII. As the name indicates it's Spiritual Energy Manipulation, referring to the Lifestream, Mako, which is essentially the equivalent of Ki/Nen/Chakra/Reiki/Haki/Cosmo/Reiatsu in the setting. This also doubles as a cosmology blog explaining the nature of the Lifestream and how it relates to Spiritual Energy Manipulation.

Blog with full explanations here.

Though here's an index and quick rundown of the changes and what's covered (Full justifications in the blog):

  1. Why Spiritual Energy is 4-D (This was a revision originally proposed by @Cyberblader90 all the way in 2021 that's currently accepted, I simply added a few things and included it due to its major importance)
  2. Danger and Intensity of Mako: Why exposure to Spiritual Energy becomes more hazardous at different levels.
  3. Stages of Hazard: The dangerous effects exposure to Mako has, and how they change depending on the amount exposed to. This translates to Resistances.
3. a. Minor Exposure
Applies to: Bottom tiers (9-B), such as Infantryman Cloud and other mooks onwards.
  • Perception Manipulation
  • Statistics Reduction

3. b. Mako Poisoning
Applies to: Low Tiers (High 6-A), such as Disc 1 Party and 2nd Class SOLDIER Zack Fair, onwards.
  • Mind Manipulation, Soul Manipulation and Empathic Manipulation
  • Madness Manipulation (Type 2)
  • Memory Manipulation
  • Perception Manipulation (Enhanced)
  • Statistics Reduction (Enhanced)
  • Paralysis Inducement
  • Sleep Manipulation
  • Death Manipulation

3. c. Corruption
Applies to: Mid-Tiers (4-A), such as Disc 2 Party and 1st Class SOLDIER Zack Fair, Angeal, Genesis, onwards.
  • Biological Manipulation and Technology Manipulation
  • Corruption (Type 2)
  • Necromancy
  • Madness Manipulation (Type 2, Enhanced)

3. d. Assimilation
Applies to: High and Top-Tiers (3-B), such as Disc 3 Party, AC Cloud, DoC Vincent, Weiss, pre-Lifestream Sephiroth, onwards.
  • Deconstruction and Matter Manipulation (Macro-Quantum)
  • Mind Manipulation, Soul Manipulation and Empathic Manipulation
  • Memory Manipulation (Enhanced)
  • Life Manipulation
  • Power Nullification
  • Absorption (Biological, Power, Energy and Soul)

4. Base Level: Spiritual Essence
Applies to: Everyone.
Abilities:
  • Blessed
  • Acausality (Type 4)
  • Abstract Existence (Type 1)
  • Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 1)
  • Chi Manipulation
  • Holy Manipulation and Resistance Negation
  • Information Manipulation (Type 2)
  • Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) and Space-Time Manipulation
  • Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, Life Manipulation and Memory Manipulation
  • Non-Physical Interaction (Elements, Spiritual and Abstracts)
  • Regeneration Negation (High Godly: Concept; Type 1, Information; Type 2; History)
  • Immortality Negation (Types 2, 3, possibly 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9)
  • Acausality Negation (Type 3)
Resistances:
  • Holy Manipulation
  • Information Manipulation (Type 2)
  • Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) and Space-Time Manipulation
  • Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, Life Manipulation and Memory Manipulation
  • Power Mimicry, Power Absorption and Power Modification
  • Magic

5. Level 1: Basic
Applies to: Bottom tiers (9-B), such as infantryman Cloud and other mooks onwards.
Abilities:
  • Regeneration (Low)
  • Empowerment, Awakened Power and Rage power
Resistances:
  • Hazardous Effects of Mako (Minor Exposure)
  • Cold Temperatures
  • High Temperatures

6. Level 2: Intermediate
Applies to: Low Tiers (High 6-A), such as Disc 1 Party and 2nd Class SOLDIER Zack Fair, onwards.
Abilities:
  • Supernatural Willpower
  • Aura (Non-combat applicable)
  • Regeneration (Mid-Low)
  • Damage Boost
  • Energy Projection
  • Invulnerability Negation (For Limit Breaks)
  • Reflection Negation (For Limit Breaks)
Resistances:
  • Hazardous Effects of Mako (Minor Exposure and Mako Poisoning)
  • Unholy Manipulation and Darkness Manipulation
  • Mind Manipulation, Memory Manipulation and Soul Manipulation (Enhanced)
  • Corrosion Inducement, Absorption and BFR
  • Death Manipulation
  • Madness Manipulation (Types 1 and 3)
  • Radiation Manipulation and Matter Manipulation (Sub-Atomic)
  • Absolute Zero
  • Corruption (Type 1)
  • Sealing
  • Time Manipulation and Time Stop
  • Fate Manipulation

7. Level 3: Advanced
Applies to: Mid-Tiers (4-A), such as Disc 2 Party and 1st Class SOLDIER Zack Fair, Angeal, Genesis, onwards.
Abilities:
  • Supernatural Willpower (Enhanced)
  • Free Movement
Resistances:
  • Hazardous Effects of Mako (Minor Exposure, Mako Poisoning and Mutation)
  • Pain Manipulation
  • Healing Negation
  • Illusion Creation
  • Extreme Pressure

8. Level 4: Mastered
Applies to: High-Tiers (3-B), such as Disc 3 Party, Sephiroth (pre-Lifestream), onwards.
Abilities:
  • Supernatural Willpower (Enhanced)
  • Healing Negation
Resistances:
  • Hazardous Effects of Mako (Minor Exposure, Mako Poisoning, Mutation and Assimilation)
  • Telekinesis, Perception Manipulation and Sense Manipulation
  • Possession, Body Puppetry and Telepathy
  • Spatial Manipulation (Enhanced)
  • Extreme Heat and Radiation Manipulation (Enhanced)
  • Durability Negation (Via Internal Damage)

9. Level 5: Awakened
Applies to: Top-Tiers (3-B), such as AC Cloud, DoC Vincent, Weiss, Remnants of Sephiroth, onwards.
Abilities:
  • Limited Astral Projection
  • Chi Manipulation (Enhanced)
  • Damage Boost (Enhanced)
  • Regeneration (High-Low)
Resistances:
  • Hazardous Effects of Mako (Minor Exposure, Mako Poisoning, Mutation and Assimilation)
  • Mind Manipulation (Mental Drain)
  • Fear Manipulation
  • Unholy Manipulation and Darkness Manipulation (Enhanced)

10. Level 6: Thaumaturge
Applies to: Top-Tiers (3-B), such as AC Sephiroth, post-death Aerith, Minerva (her tier being an exception)
Abilities:
  • Supernatural Willpower (Enhanced)
  • Magic (Natural)
  • Summoning
  • Enhanced Senses, Extrasensory Perception and Clairvoyance
  • Astral Projection
  • Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, Memory Manipulation and Life Manipulation
  • Possible Fate Manipulation
Resistances:
  • Hazardous Effects of Mako (Minor Exposure, Mako Poisoning, Mutation and Assimilation)

11. Extra Level: Ivalice
Applies to: An additional level. Arrival applies to low-tiers (High 6-A) onwards and endgame to mid-tiers (4-A) onwards.
Abilities (Arrival):
  • Ivalician Magick
  • Bravery
  • Reflection and Space-Time Manipulation Negation
  • Subjective Reality, Probability Manipulation and Power Nullification Negation
Resistances (Arrival):
  • Social Influencing and Morality Manipulation
  • Biological Manipulation and Corruption (Type 1)
  • Law Manipulation
  • Matter Manipulation (Quantum)
  • Void Manipulation
  • Reality Warping
  • Subjective Reality, Probability Manipulation and Power Nullification
  • Corruption (Type 2)
  • Unholy Manipulation
  • Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation and Empathic Manipulation
  • Madness Manipulation (Type 3)
  • Corrosion Inducement
  • BFR
Abilities (Endgame):
  • Immortality Negation (Type 5) and Non-Physical Interaction (Nonexistence and Nonduality)
Resistances (Endgame):
  • BFR (Enhanced)
  • Absolute Zero (Enhanced)
  • Existence Erasure
  • Necromancy, Body Puppetry and Sense Manipulation
  • Corruption (Type 2) (Enhanced)
  • Law Manipulation (Enhanced)
  • Space-Time Manipulation (Enhanced)
  • Void Manipulation (Enhanced)
  • Chaos Manipulation

12. Final Level: Lifestream
Applies to: Only to the Lifestream itself.
Abilities:
  • Creation and Existence Erasure
  • Fate Manipulation
  • Blessing, Life Manipulation and Power Bestowal
  • Healing, Purification (Type 1, 2 and 3) and Statistics Amplification
  • Resurrection
  • Immersion and Dimensional Travel
  • All abilities from Materia
Resistances:
  • Hazardous Effects of Mako (Minor Exposure, Mako Poisoning, Mutation and Assimilation)
 
So actually reading through this I do have a few points of contention
TartaChocholate said:

Another World of Memories and Knowledge​

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In particular, the section which claims that the Lifestream holds different concepts of time and space, which given how the scan presents it, doesn't seem to be literal. Instead seeming to be referring to how in a mental realm (which the Lifestream very much is) time and space are very much "relative" for the observer (which is a common trope in Eastern Asian fiction), like how in a dream years can go by, but then it can start to flow at a regular rate, all while only a few hours may have passed outside. In addition, the statement of transcending time doesn't seem to be literal either, as it seems to instead be referring to it in an Akashic Records-like manner, where even the information, knowledge, and memories that existed and were lost in the flow of time were still available in the present (which is reinforced by materia being stated to be the knowledge of the ancients).

I also wish to ask for something on how the Singularity Of Fate, and the places that come after it in the text are contained within the Lifestream, as the scans do not provide such, and at the very minimum the Universe of Death seems to not be contained within it as to me it seems as though the world of Meteor as indicated in this scan seems to be implied to be the same, which given it is stated to be in opposition to the world of the Lifestream, would not make sense for it to be contained in the Lifestream itself.
TartaChocholate said:

The 4th Dimensional Nature of Spiritual Energy​

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I question whether or not this is the correct scan for the Lifestream having a different set of laws from the material world, because if so, that is bad evidence as nothing about this indicates a difference that cannot be explained by Aerith's soul leaving her body and going to the Lifestream, which isn't something that indicates a separate set of laws or something of the like. My issues with the mentions of the Universe of Death and those related strings can be seen above.

Bringing up Ivalice as something that the Lifestream can connect to, at least on its own, seems very much iffy to me. As if you recall, the device that summoned Cloud to Ivalice used the Cancer Auricte to do so. Which I would personally argue is something the Auricite did rather than the Lifestream doing on its own, to a place where there is no Mako (at least naturally), since in the case of WoFF (which I will note I do not have that much of a contention with, but will point out the issue), it noted that Grymoire had Mako within it (likely due to Enna, but that is another can of worms I am unwilling to open), which seems to be what let the Jenova stuff send Zack to Grymoire.

This scan doesn't seem to indicate what is being said it indicates, as it mostly just speaks about them being connected with the threads of space and time that shape the planet's fate, but that doesn't mean that past, present, and future are being connected through it, that's an extrapolation that doesn't make much sense. I do accept that it can affect the future, however, as that seems quite explicit from the following scans
A small scale version of this phenomenon can be seen[16] with Summons, who create their own personal spaces[17] to draw in their enemies and fight.
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Why is this entire section here in the explanation for spiritual energy being 4D? This is just summons being capable of creating space, which is 3D, we don't really have reason to presume they create a whole space-time to my knowledge.

I mean I still think that it can possibly be 4D given this(though the fact that it is just a big bang inside the universe or from spirit energy instead of being ex nihilo may change my mind on the matter, so eh) and sledgeworms existing, though whether or not it scales to every single instance of spirit energy is another thing altogether.
TartaChocholate said:

Those Who Can't Rest In Peace​

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This entire section is missing scans, I can see the square brackets there so I'm guessing you were gonna but scans, but just in case I am informing you.
TartaChocholate said:

Stages And Their Effects​

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Agree with everything bar the deconstruction being on a macro quantum level, as not only is (to my knowledge and recollection) not a part of the "local multiverse" of the first six games, so it shouldn't scale to how fire and ice magic is described in FF4, but even were to do so, given how fire and ice work (just speeding up and slowing down electrons) we would have no reason to assume it can then also break matter down to that level.
TartaChocholate said:

Spiritual Energy Manipulation​

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I'm not touching exactly on this section yet because this post is already large and I would rather get these out of the way first before covering this, though I do have a single question, why exactly are we scaling something only Cloud did (going to Ivalice and getting its type of magic) to everyone else, as even were we to presuppose that every single person who could use spirit energy to a decent degree could also use Ivalice magic, which I wouldn't, they do not have the knowledge or knowhow to do so. Unless this is only something that would apply to Cloud, in which case, why have it be a section at all, instead of just placing it on Cloud's eventual profile?

Also I do want to ask, are the materia and jenova sections going to come into play during this CRT? I want to know so I can know how many "sections" I should break my posts into.

I also plan to post on the Ivalice thread eventually, so (y)
 
Acausality (Types 4): The Lifestream doesn't follow linear time, which is imposed only on the living world by Planet[4]. Within the Spiritual Energy of the Lifestream, the passing of time is meaningless and arbitrary, moments can last an instant or an eternity, while past and present are merged together, with the repeating cycle of life and those returning to the Planet being a hint that time is moving forward. The Spirits are similarly unbound to time, as they are fragments of the Spiritual Energy of the Lifestream. This also applies to living beings, by virtue of being said Spiritual Energy granted to newborn life.
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A different flow of time isn't the same as a different flow of causality. This is just saying spirits can view time as faster and slower. It doesn't say past and present are merged together, just that memories from the present are merged with memories of the past, which is different. Even if it was a different flow of causality, it shouldn't apply to living beings. If that were the case, the concept of time in the Lifestream wouldn't be different from the living world's. Humans in FF7 are obviously perceiving time normally

Abstract Existence (Type 1): Applicable to the Spirit and spiritual beings only. The Spiritual Energy within the Lifestream, and by extension the Spirit of all living beings, is made of knowledge and memories[4], the accumulation of the collective consciousness[4] of those who have died and returned to the Planet and given back[2] to it the information they gained in life.
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The souls are not completely made of memories and knowledge, the fact that souls are merging with their knowledge and memories proves this. For this reason I think it should be limited abstract existence at best. "Consciousness" is mental, not conceptual

Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 1): The Lifestream and its Spiritual Energy are described[4] to have different concepts of space and time, with the latter being called meaningless and arbitrary altogether and the memories accumulated and making up the information of the Lifestream is stated to have surpassed time yet still be concentrated in that place.
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The context of "time is meaningless" is that it can pass slowly or quickly in the Lifestream, meaning it still has time and shouldn't count for BDE

Holy Manipulation and Resistance Negation: The nature of the Lifestream is described[1] to be holy in nature and particularly effective against wicked beings. Noticeably, the Lifestream has the capability to purify[24] perceivedly evil entities
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This should be type 2 purification as well

Information Manipulation (Type 2): The Lifestream is made of memories and consciousness[4], but also experiences and knowledge[4], which is what makes its power[22], the Spiritual Energy[1] coursing it, and by extension the Spirit giving life[1] to living creatures on the Planet. The Lifestream is a collective system[5] made from all the living things that have existed on the Planet, who create and acquire[2] new knowledge and memories and when they die and return to the Lifestream, their thoughts return to the Planet, making it[3] to grow. This accumulation of information is what allows the Lifestream to exist through the a cycle, which shapes and gives birth to new life[2], as well as what contains the powers[16] accessible through Magic, Summons and possibly forms [12] the universe itself[10]. Additionally, the Lifestream has a record of the full history and future of the world[9], having a fixed path of its destiny[8] it knows the endpoint of the story of the world, all the events and how they will reach said point.
Click to expand...
For it to count as type 2, it needs to be the fundamental information of reality, and the only thing here that is close to information type 2 is the fact that the lifestream possibly forms the universe itself, but that is not information manipulation for the same reason why a big bang wouldn't have it. The record of history is just referring to memories of the past and future, memories are not type 2 information. Everything else is just talking about giving life energy which is also not information

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1) and Space-Time Manipulation: In the other world of the Lifestream, the sea of Spiritual Energy, concepts such as time and space are different from the living world[4], with the world in itself being a possibility [12] that is born from the Lifestream[10], which is the origin for many possibilities, worlds and stories[13] and whose rules, such as linear time and distance, are concepts predating its existence, coming from the very Lifestream. The existence of different outcomes and possibilities may translate into new universes, and further realms exist within the Lifestream where where concepts like time and space differ. In the Lifestream time described as meaningless and it's movement arbitrary, lasting an eternity or a mere instant depending on what a person perceived. Past and present being merged as one, allowing only for a future in the world of the living in order to allow for the cycle of the Spirits of those who have died to return to the Planet to keep going. The thoughts and memories in the Lifestream are described to have surpassed time altogether
Click to expand...
This proves that time is different in the lifestream and that "some kind of power" can change space and time, which is not the same as manipulating the concept of space time

and other aspects in the Lifestream have different workings for space-time, of particular note being the Whispers of Fate, who are connected to all threads of space-time[8] and are capable of gathering memories[9] from any point in time, including the future[8] of which that still doesn't exist, as well as the Edge of Creation [12], located at the end of time and space, with time itself standing still.
Click to expand...
This is more time travel than time manipulation

Soul Manipulation, Mind Manipulation, Memory Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation and Life Manipulation: The Spirit is the mind, soul and heart, as well as the spark of life[1] of living beings, which comes from Spiritual Energy granted directly from the Lifestream itself, and even minor degrees of exposure to Spiritual Energy has shown to have detrimental effects[1] on these aspects of living beings, thus techniques using Spiritual Energy weaponize it and reach the enemy at these same levels.
Click to expand...
Cloud gets hit by magic abilities and doesn't suffer the same level of mental damage and hallucinations as he does when exposed to mako poisoning. Neither does the cast, which must mean magic doesn't have these effects (or magic has these effects to a very minor extent)

Damage caused by Spiritual Energy not only can harm or destroy the Soul and Mind, damaging the Spirit can cause emotions to go into disarray and memories to scramble and eventually fade[16] as the damage becomes increasingly severe. How great the effect achieved is depends on the strength of the user's and the resistance of the enemy's Spirit.
Click to expand...
Any scan for spirit energy damaging the soul and mind?

Regeneration Negation (Up to Low-high, likely High-Godly: Concept; Type 1, Information; Type 2 and History): Scaling from the main party of the original game who could permanently kill[1] the Jenova fragments they fought, such as Jenova∙BIRTH. Even if reduced to her very cells[2], Jenova can enforce her will through the pieces of her body and gather them all[1] to rebuild it through the Reunion, yet the fragments defeated by the party were left unusable for this process and would simply remain dead.
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The fragment of Jenova left behind disappeared, nothing visible is left, so its just killing them beyond the point of regen, not regen negation

Regeneration Negation (Up to Low-high, likely High-Godly: Concept; Type 1, Information; Type 2 and History): Scaling from the main party of the original game who could permanently kill[1] the Jenova fragments they fought, such as Jenova∙BIRTH. Even if reduced to her very cells[2], Jenova can enforce her will through the pieces of her body and gather them all[1] to rebuild it through the Reunion, yet the fragments defeated by the party were left unusable for this process and would simply remain dead. Can defeat the Whispers of Fate and end their influence to keep destiny on a fixed path. The Whispers are the manifestation[8] of the destiny of the Planet[11] and whose destruction led to predestined fate[12] being gone and the future being unknown, who when slain simply scatter into particles[11] and restore themselves, this would make them spiritual entities capable of recovering from being destroyed by Spiritual Energy which implicates being struck down on the mind, soul, emotions, life and memories at a conceptual and informational level, due to the way Spiritual Energy works.
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The fact that they need particles in order to regenerate prove it is not high or even mid godly. Even if they did have regen, Cloud and the party aren't negating their regeneration because it says "even when slain or otherwise defeated, they merely return to particles. As such, they're essentially undying", which means defeating them doesn't mean you're bypassing their regen. And when Cloud defeats them, they turn into particles, without any indication that they can never come back
 
Looks great, I agree. Would neon from SOP also gain spiritual essence ? She’s a genetically modified artificial human akin to project s.
 
G33kedzinx said:
Looks great, I agree. Would neon from SOP also gain spiritual essence ? She’s a genetically modified artificial human akin to project s.
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No. SOP is a completely different world than the world of FF7, the SOP cast don't gain any of this. This strictly applies to FF7 cast, maybe 10 as well.
 
Hypertornado099 said:
Do all mind manipulators have conceptual manipulation?
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I feel like the question is rhetorical as it is pretty much case by case (as obviously as it can get as it really comes down to how the verse portrayed mind and if it can affect concepts which isn’t impossible in the realm of fiction) but regardless, the mind isn’t physical as mentioned already. Tied to body in case of a human, but still its own thing anyway.
 
Hypertornado099 said:
Well that's not relevant here its not like the mind can affect concepts in FF7 and affecting concepts does not mean you are abstract
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It is more of a aspect kind of thing as technically one’s being is entirely made up of three aspects which is body, mind, and soul (The soul gets a lot of skepticism due to its more non physical aspect compared to the mind).
 
HammerStrikes219 said:
It is more of a aspect kind of thing as technically one’s being is entirely made up of three aspects which is body, mind, and soul (The soul gets a lot of skepticism due to its more non physical aspect compared to the mind).
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Yeah but what does that have to do with whether or not the mind should count as abstract by default

deonment said:
Not just concepts alone are abstract, citing the page
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Ok, that should be enough evidence so I agree with limited AE type 1
 
Hypertornado099 said:
Yeah but what does that have to do with whether or not the mind should count as abstract by default
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For the mind part, it ultimately counts down to whatever the mind counts as being tied to a physical existence or it operated independently of the body hence I say case by case as ultimately the mind isn’t inherently abstract despite the non physical side of the mind
 
Hypertornado099 said:
Yeah but what does that have to do with whether or not the mind should count as abstract by default
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We typically treat the mind as abstract whenever it is distinguished from just being the brain, and thereby is a wholly mental thing (ironic/self-fulfilling I know) and as such would be abstract due to being as such.
 
Hypertornado099 said:
Then it would be a feat for the Lifestream, not every single living being like the blog says
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That's kinda it, though. There's no difference between the Spiritual Energy of the Lifestream and a living being. Every living being is alive due to having Lifestream within themselves. The Lifestream gives a piece of its Spiritual Energy to newborn life and that Spiritual Energy is what they use for their attacks and tecniques, except for Magic which borrows power directly from the Lifestream.
 
Rakih_Elyan said:
Do they actually use that concept manip in a fight, I think only lifestream that can do that.
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As Tarta said, Spiritual Energy that living people have and the Lifestream are tied to eachother. As such it's channeled into attacks. So yes, it's used in combat. Similar to how general magic in FF's 1-6 and others all have Type 2 Concept, Space-Time, Law, and Subjective Reality Hax, which is what Glass was getting at.
 
@deonment You do realize they're in the same multiverse right? Gilgamesh appearing in all of them is a prime example of it, on top of dissidia's existence.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@deonment You do realize they're in the same multiverse right? Gilgamesh appearing in all of them is a prime example of it, on top of dissidia's existence.
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he showed up in in rebirth
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bruh
Anyways simply existing in the same multiverse isn't reason for presuming they share the same magic system or mechanics behind their magic system, especially when the origins of magic differ between them, and the ff7 profiles (which have been updated since the unification of 1-6 as being apart of the same "world" so they aren't outdated) do not include the typical properties associated with FF1-6 magic, and Dissidia existing isn't an argument for them sharing the same properties either.
TartaChocholate said:
That's kinda it, though. There's no difference between the Spiritual Energy of the Lifestream and a living being. Every living being is alive due to having Lifestream within themselves. The Lifestream gives a piece of its Spiritual Energy to newborn life and that Spiritual Energy is what they use for their attacks and tecniques, except for Magic which borrows power directly from the Lifestream.
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Yeah but that doesn't really mean it's combat applicable, I wouldn't say that just because someone can create concepts with magic means that people who resist magic in general would also resist concept manip, because it isn't being used in an offensive manner or in a manner that would directly impact others
 
@deonment They technically are since everyone in FF would cross scale with the same normal abilities that magic has. 15 and the Nova Crystalis series has the 1-6 stuff due to them stemming from the same multiverse, so 7 not having it isn't an argument. Plus the lifestream stemming across numerous universes with the newer lore for 7 would make 1-6 stuff easily cross scale.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@deonment They technically are since everyone in FF would cross scale with the same normal abilities that magic has. 15 and the Nova Crystalis series has the 1-6 stuff due to them stemming from the same multiverse, so 7 not having it isn't an argument. Plus the lifestream stemming across numerous universes with the newer lore for 7 would make 1-6 stuff easily cross scale.
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Firstly 15 and 13 have that stuff due to having a direct tie to the original series, compared to 7 which only has a tie to it due to Gilgamesh who quite literally travels the void between realities, and has negative reason to be used as the sole foundation upon which an argument for them sharing magic should be drawn.

Secondly, why are we presuming these are basic properties of magic throughout the entire multiverse when the source upon which magic is drawn is different, especially in the case of 7 where magic quite literally draws upon a power and uses properties specific to its home universe. And despite the lifestream crossing universes to put Zach in Grymoire (which may very well only be due to Enna Kros having created Mako within it), it doesn't mean that it shares/carries the magical properties that the magic within those universes utilize, even more so when they draw upon different sources of power, such as Mist/Auricite in Ivalice or The Warring Triad in 6.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Hypertornado099 Final fantasy 4 would like to have a word with you when normal magic can mess with concepts easily. This is just more evidence that they'd have concept hax.
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Does FF4 and FF7 have the same magic system?

TartaChocholate said:
That's kinda it, though. There's no difference between the Spiritual Energy of the Lifestream and a living being. Every living being is alive due to having Lifestream within themselves. The Lifestream gives a piece of its Spiritual Energy to newborn life and that Spiritual Energy is what they use for their attacks and tecniques, except for Magic which borrows power directly from the Lifestream.
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Should everyone in FF7 also have the ability to decompose their own body with spiritual energy? The totality of life energy is not the same as 1 person's life energy and spirit
 
Theglassman12 said:
@deonment They technically are since everyone in FF would cross scale with the same normal abilities that magic has. 15 and the Nova Crystalis series has the 1-6 stuff due to them stemming from the same multiverse, so 7 not having it isn't an argument. Plus the lifestream stemming across numerous universes with the newer lore for 7 would make 1-6 stuff easily cross scale.
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If that's the case then I think a magic page for FF should be made, and everything in FF7 magic blog would apply to every FF game
 
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