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Elemental Manipulation Page Removal

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Once again elemental manipulation’s description doesn’t need to do that. That’s what I was trying to explain with my navigation point. Elemental manipulation is already a collection of the sub sets. We don’t need to add every individual sub set to the profiles, that’s the entire point of have a power be a category of powers to begin with. You click elemental manipulation, you find fire manipulation, and you click it.
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Why would you want to add an extra click for users unnecessarily?
 
Keeweed said:
That type of navigation has the category system. Why does the profile need to link the power when the category exist. Just look up fire users. If a page with elemental manipulation is missing a category just add the category. Category’s can be added slowly overtime whenever someone notices they are missing. If we remove elemental manipulation we would have to quickly change all the pages that have it.

While superhuman physical characteristics is covered by how our profile works: the point was that it isn’t self explanatory. It is explained by our profiles, but it doesn’t explain itself.
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That's the problem, it's far easier to find pages that already have the category than pages that don't, and by that point it would be more effective to also remove Elemental Manipulation along the way, and doing so is also far more consistent than expecting this to be done overtime.

Yes, but this is like comparing Weapon Mastery to Reality Warping, one is quite self-explanatory and can often go without a description, but the latter is so variable to the point it requires a description to know on what degree, usage and so on it is.

Keeweed said:
“rather than also having to deal with "[[Elemental Manipulation]] (Fire)" or [[Elemental Manipulation]] (Can use [[Fire Manipulation|fire]] and [[Electricity Manipulation|electricity]])”

Once again elemental manipulation’s description doesn’t need to do that. That’s what I was trying to explain with my navigation point. Elemental manipulation is already a collection of the sub sets. We don’t need to add every individual sub set to the profiles, that’s the entire point of have a power be a category of powers to begin with. You click elemental manipulation, you find fire manipulation, and you click it.
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As said before, doing this makes unecessary issues on finding pages for the purpose of CRTs and so on, and listing it without any description, as said before, leaves it too undetailed to have any proper meaning and can be easily taken incorrectly that way. Most characters don't even have all of the "subsets" Elemental Manipulation has at once either.
 
“Why would you want to add an extra click”

That extra click, could possibly happen, and it would only happen once.

As I was trying to explain earlier, who looks over powers like fire manipulation more than once. Elemental powers are the most generic and common powers out there. I don’t think literally anyone will be confused about it.

Ignoring how a single extra click is the goofiest reason to remove a power ever. God forbid people need to spend 2 more seconds to understand a power they should already understand. If we link all the individual subsets to the descriptions then yes elemental manipulation is pointless. But that isn’t necessary at all, isn’t how majority of the profiles currently do it anyways, and the time and effort it would take to change/remove elemental manipulation just isn’t worth it. Do you guys honestly want to waste hours of people’s time and change a crap ton of profiles for a completely subjective change.

We’re making a mountain out of an mole hill here. If you ever see a character that has a vague description for elemental manipulation just change the description. You would have to research the character to find the correct element anyways, so just change the profile in the way you see fit.
 
Keeweed said:
That extra click, could possibly happen, and it would only happen once.

As I was trying to explain earlier, who looks over powers like fire manipulation more than once. Elemental powers are the most generic and common powers out there. I don’t think literally anyone will be confused about it.

Ignoring how a single extra click is the goofiest reason to remove a power ever. God forbid people need to spend 2 more seconds to understand a power they should already understand. If we link all the individual subsets to the descriptions then yes elemental manipulation is pointless. But that isn’t necessary at all, isn’t how majority of the profiles currently do it anyways, and the time and effort it would take to change/remove elemental manipulation just isn’t worth it. Do you guys honestly want to waste hours of people’s time and change a crap ton of profiles for a completely subjective change.

We’re making a mountain out of an mole hill here.
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As said before, there's also the aspect of not linking the respective powers causing issues for finding certain pages with them for the purpose of CRTs.

Actually, an extra click has been a common complaint across the site, that's why often alternatives to keep "scaling chains" not be based around navigating across over 3 profiles isn't required to know how X is Y tier, for instance.
 
Except categories exist for the navigation purposes and if the elemental powers have descriptions, like they should, you could just look up fire or electricity and the page will show up.

Massive scaling chains are annoying because the evidence for a tier or feat can only be found on one profile while the profiles just link to random characters that can possibly never lead you to the feat in the first place. Meanwhile fire manipulation should be understood by basic human knowledge. What person over the age of five doesn’t know what fire is and what it’s basic properties are? Same for the other elements.

Also Elemental manipulation leads you to a clean and simple list of the powers that takes 5 seconds to read through. Versus scaling chains that can be mangled messes that make zero since unless you know the series.
 
Keeweed said:
Except categories exist for the navigation purposes and if the elemental powers have descriptions, like they should, you could just look up fire or electricity and the page will show up.

Massive scaling chains are annoying because the evidence for a tier or feat can only be found on one profile while the profiles just link to random characters that can possibly never lead you to the feat in the first place. Meanwhile fire manipulation should be understood by basic human knowledge. What person over the age of five doesn’t know what fire is and what it’s basic properties are?

Also Elemental manipulation leads you to a clean and simple list of the powers that takes 5 seconds to read through. Versus scaling chains that can be mangled messes that make zero since unless you know the series.
Click to expand...
That defeats the purpose of having links in the first place, by that logic we may as well do more "category-kind" powers like this one to keep pages small, why make a directory of pages to link to when one can just link the respective page? This is the equivalent of linking to a disambiguation page to list three characters that happen to have the same name when you could just link directly these three characters.

We still have the page for a reason, and not linking it directly causes issues for finding pages for the purpose of revisions, as said before.
And this is still a problem, the list is still wide enought to have to use CTRL+F if anything.
 
What revisions do you have to mass search any of the elements. When have elements as a power been changed over the years? And if they are changed when has that ever applied to profiles?

If you are changing an individual character then you should already know where all their powers are on their profile and what should be changed. That’s why you make a CRT in the first place, to change something you know should be changed.
 
Keeweed said:
What revisions do you have to mass search any of the elements. When have elements as a power been changed over the years? And if they are changed when has that ever applied to profiles?
Click to expand...
A CRT is done and it's found that X verse shouldn't have Magma Manipulation as it was a mistranslation for Fire Manipulation
An user tries to filter the pages to edit within a verse by looking what links to the Magma Manipulation page
No results appear
The user tries to search by which pages within the verse link to Elemental Manipulation
A ton of results pop up
What? There's a ton of false positives out of this also being used for Water Manipulation, etc? Now we have to manually find them.

You've also been skipping previous points I've done you haven't refuted, which supports further the Elemental Manipulation page being overall more counterproductive than productive overall.
 
If a person is making a crt for a specific verse they should already understand which characters would need to be changed. Also if they look up the verse name and lava/magma the profiles will appear due to descriptions of the power. If elemental manipulation on those profiles don’t have descriptions then that was a problem with how the pages were made, not with the power itself. When you change the magma manipulation just fix up the elemental manipulation. You already have to fix the profiles anyways.

Also your example is also a super specific scenario. I can find many profiles that have tiny problems with their powers too, doesn’t mean we should just delete them. How many profiles link soul manipulation with no description. Can they steal, destroy, or harm the soul, no clue. That’s not a problem with the power, that’s a problem with the profile.
 
Keeweed said:
If a person is making a crt for a specific verse they should already understand which characters would need to be changed. Also if they look up the verse name and lava/magma the profiles will appear due to descriptions of the power. If elemental manipulation on those profiles don’t have descriptions then that was a problem with how the pages were made, not with the power itself. When you change the magma manipulation just fix up the elemental manipulation. You already have to fix the profiles anyways.
Click to expand...
That isn't as simple for a verse that has over 100 pages, especially if it branches on others sorts of media hardly anyone will encompass as a whole, let alone helping editing as well, and in any case this shows how more effort than usual is required just to keep this, a compromise for little gain and more loss.
 
What verse on this site has a page with 100 characters all of which apparently have this magma manipulation and all of them also have elemental manipulation listed incorrectly. Why does any of that matter anyways. Congratulations one verse had a slip up. Better nuke a power and have a ton of people need to do hours of work because some profiles were vague.

Changing messy profiles can be done whenever and are vastly lower numbers versus completely removing the power and needing to change every page with it in a short time span.

Also now I’m going. Should have left earlier, sorry for any inconvenience.
 
It's an hypothetical example, and even then the point is clear, and it's not only that issue as I've said, I brought up several others like the issues with navigation, formatting consistency and so on, and please don't try to question these points again, you have yet to bring arguments to support your point in the first place.
What positives beyond making indexing "easier" in terms of editing (And by about 5 minutes at most) having Elemental Manipulation has? This is really trying to excuse not making pages of an higher quality just out of laziness.

Removing the power is a bigger change that brings more positives to the site in the long run, while keeping it just makes more issues that keep building up.
 
Elemental Manipulation (Can shoot fireballs, can make water shields, can cause sandstorms and earthquakes)

This is just 3 elements used fairly simply, and it's already close to being daunting to try and look through all of it for, say, what their water manipulation does.

Sorry for being random.
 
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The_King_of_Prudence said:
Elemental Manipulation (Can shoot fireballs, can make water shields, can cause sandstorms and earthquakes)

This is just 3 elements used fairly simply, and it's already close to being daunting to try and look through all of it for, say, what their water manipulation does.

Sorry for being random.
Click to expand...
Bobsican said:
That defeats the purpose of having links in the first place, by that logic we may as well do more "category-kind" powers like this one to keep pages small, why make a directory of pages to link to when one can just link the respective page? This is the equivalent of linking to a disambiguation page to list three characters that happen to have the same name when you could just link directly these three characters.

We still have the page for a reason, and not linking it directly causes issues for finding pages for the purpose of revisions, as said before.
And this is still a problem, the list is still wide enought to have to use CTRL+F if anything.
Click to expand...
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Elemental Manipulation only needs to be added if they manipulate multiple elements and are treated as segments of the same power, or if the element(s) they manipulate are stuff not categorized under the main forms. If they just manipulate fire, then simply having fire manipulation is fine. And while I do see DontTalkDT's and Bobsican's points, I agree with what Damage and Soldier Blue that some profiles definitely look more organized with elemental manipulation as a specific bubble with _(All the different elements they manipulate inside these).
Click to expand...
I agree with this, and we should also generally avoid massive revision projects that do not bring us any benefits.
 
I already said several benefits, if anything the issue comes on the interest on actually applying this, and as said before, it can just be kept for later once the more relevant site-wide revisions are done.
 
Again, I do not think that we should waste considerable time and energy on projects that give us no benefit or even leave us off slightly worse than before. It is somewhat convenient to keep elemental manipulation, and it would take massive amounts of time to replace it with all of the sub-powers. As such, this is not a priority at all, and we should focus on other areas of improvement instead.
 
I find it perfectly fine to read, and I know other people also find it fine to read. I’m actually making a profile for a character that has practically every elemental power on this site. Saying elemental manipulation looks a dozen times better on her profile then needing to list 11 different powers.

Also whether it’s better to read or not is entirely subjective so that’s not a reason to delete powers. You guys find it tedium but as said by plenty of people here they don’t view that to be the case. Also even the staff who agree with its deletion some of them said it just isn’t worth the difficulty to remove it.

Once again you guys keep making a bigger and bigger hill out of the smallest mole hill in exist. A power you find slightly inconvenient and you think it’s totally worth doing a site wide revision and over it. You gain ‘benefits’ that are entirely subjective and it only took hours of multiple people’s time. And that would be if they just edit the profile. For profiles that are vague they would also need to research the characters to find the correct element.

There is something to take from this thread, not nuking elemental manipulation, tell people when they make profiles don’t assume powers are self explanatory.
 
Keeweed said:
I find it perfectly fine to read, and I know other people also find it fine to read. I’m actually making a profile for a character that has practically every elemental power on this site. Saying elemental manipulation looks a dozen times better on her profile then needing to list 11 different powers.

Also whether it’s better to read or not is entirely subjective so that’s not a reason to delete powers. You guys find it tedium but as said by plenty of people here they don’t view that to be the case. Also even the staff who agree with its deletion some of them said it just isn’t worth the difficulty to remove it.

Once again you guys keep making a bigger and bigger hill out of the smallest mole hill in exist. A power you find slightly inconvenient and you think it’s totally worth doing a site wide revision and over it. You gain ‘benefits’ that are entirely subjective and it only took hours of multiple people’s time. And that would be if they just edit the profile. For profiles that are vague they would also need to research the characters to find the correct element.

There is something to take from this thread, not nuking elemental manipulation, tell people when they make profiles don’t assume powers are self explanatory.
Click to expand...
Strongly agreed. Please stop making massive revision threads about at best minor inconveniences that would require massive revisions to adjust.
 
Keeweed said:
For profiles that are vague they would also need to research the characters to find the correct element.
Click to expand...
As you said, we still need to do this part regardless. Also, if we're keeping it, we should mention that some verses have more esoteric elements than those listed.
 
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Yeah but that part can be done over a very long period of time. If you know a verse with vague elemental manipulation then link it here or we can make a thread to revise those verses and we can just slowly add those verses to that thread over time.
 
What does esoteric elements mean in this case. That’s completely unnecessary for the elemental page. Just fix the profiles that have problems, none of the elements would be esoteric.
 
I still agree with Keeweed. We should preferably close this thread.
 
Tbh I've always prefer:

Elemental Manipulation (of the Earth, Air, Fire and Water varieties).

Over...

Earth manipulation, Air Manipulation, Fire Manipulation and Water Manipulation.

The former is more concise and straight to the point while taking less room on a profile.

I know this is staff only but I wanted share my simple thoughts on this matter.
 
I mean I don’t even think those should be elemental manipulation, elemental manipulation is about the the classical alchemy elements. So their elemental manipulation is just a different power all together. The profile itself even links to the correct power.
 
On one hand it is very strange that lug and darkness are under elemental manipulation when they aren’t the classical elements. On the other hand we would need to find all the profiles that have those under elemental manipulation.

I guess possibly adding a note saying sometimes elements can be esoteric (though meat manipulation in Off definition shouldn’t be elemental manipulation, that should be moved), but it seems somewhat unnecessary. Though it is an easy and quick change to add on so I’d be fine with it.
 
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