EGGMAN SHOOTS PEOPLE IN THE FACE but it’s Low 2-C

[Eseseso]

Lets see what Shake says.

 

[JJSliderman]

I also just personally dislike it when the primary reasoning is “outlier” but that’s more a disagreement with the wiki’s standards, not an actual argument.

 

[HenshinIntervention]

I agree with this actually
Eggman should be extreme low end relative to the Sonic cast, keyword "extreme"

He is not capable of ever beating Sonic physically with his hands, but he isn't infinitely weaker.

 

[JJSliderman]

That’s what I’m trying to say, he can one-shot characters who tank hits from base forms that are trying to some degree to hurt said characters, and he can make feeble but ultimately successful attempts to hold off Surge, he’s not exactly on the level of a base form but IDW puts him in that ballpark.

 

[JJSliderman]

Being honest if this is rejected, I think Starline should be changed to only have his durability at base form tier with the Tricore, it’s very misleading having a guy with that level of durability and then having the guy who one-shot him with a grapple not having a strength on par with said durability.

 

[Omegabronic]

Being honest if this is rejected, I think Starline should be changed to only have his durability at base form tier with the Tricore, it’s very misleading having a guy with that level of durability and then having the guy who one-shot him with a grapple not having a strength on par with said durability.

If the reasoning is outlier, then it wouldn't

 

[JJSliderman]

”Eggman one-shotting Starline is an outlier despite being a pivotal story moment that almost immediately preceded his death and has consistency from earlier games.”

Idk with Perfect chaos outlier makes sense, not so much Starline imo, it’s probably easier to say Starline tanking a couple hits is an outlier than justifying why Eggman one-shotting him doesn’t count.

 

[Omegabronic]

”Eggman one-shotting Starline is an outlier despite being a pivotal story moment that almost immediately preceded his death and has consistency from earlier games.”

Idk with Perfect chaos outlier makes sense, not so much Starline imo, it’s probably easier to say Starline tanking a couple hits is an outlier than justifying why Eggman one-shotting him doesn’t count.

1 showing vs eggman, several other showings in the past

Outlier is the less consistent one

 

[JJSliderman]

Eggman grappling people in that arc was pretty consistent, plus all of his current MFTL+ base justifications are from his encounters in that arc, but for some reason the same doesn’t apply to his strength.

Doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[Lonkitt]

So before I go any further, you're using non-canon sources, which you even acknowledge. If its non-canon, why are we bringing it up? I can bring up a ton of non-canon sources to back up an argument, but that non-canon detail crumbles whatever it supports

I don't agree with using Riders in this case since in-game stats (at least the ones shown in Riders) are usually based entirely in gameplay and not an accurate representation of the narrative

The Amy thing just feels like PIS in comparison to any of the evidence provided in this thread and any of the established scaling, I won't lie. It doesn't even feel that in-character for Amy to just get grabbed by somebody like Robotnik and not make the slightest attempt to break free. I'm aware she's been in vulnerable positions before (even held at gunpoint by Robotnik), but the context of those situations was different. Here, he just grabs her and she gives up

Starline is the strongest piece of evidence here, but honestly? Given the arguments here are built off:

A) Non-canon sources
B) In-game statistics that aren't reliable portrayals of what we've seen from the narrative
C) PIS

I gotta disagree

 

[JJSliderman]

I explained before but Chronicles was canon for a very long time, is a sequel to a canon game via its lore, etc. At the very least “Chronicles” Eggman should be Low 2-C assuming he’s a different character. I assumed using the Olympics would be okay because it only focused on the Sonic side but ig I was wrong.

It being PiS I disagree with considering he had already seemingly defeated her offscreen, given the last time we saw her was grabbing onto Eggman’s ship.

The argument that it’s in-game stats doesn’t hold up imo, they could have easily made Robotnik a character less focused on stats (I.e giving him one star in power and speed or something similar), but he is consistently among the high tiers in terms of power. This was a deliberate choice the game made and I think writing it off as game mechanics doesn’t make sense, since it happens in 2 of the 3 games. Even in other sports game like Superstars Tennise, Eggman is classed as a power type, so this isn’t just a one-off.

And the only argument against Starline is “outlier”, which is really arbitrary and hypocritical when the only evidence for MFTL+ base Eggman is two instances from the same arc where Eggman one-shot Starline, and we have two instances where Eggman holds his own (one occasion better than another) against base Sonic tiers physically in the same arc, but the speed is okay while the AP isn’t.

 

[Lonkitt]

I explained before but Chronicles was canon for a very long time, is a sequel to a canon game via its lore, etc. At the very least “Chronicles” Eggman should be Low 2-C assuming he’s a different character. I assumed using the Olympics would be okay because it only focused on the Sonic side but ig I was wrong.

A) Previously being canon =/= still applying to current canon. In some cases, it can, but if its non-canon in the current day in the context of Mainline Sonic, it can't be used
B) Why would Olympics be alright to use? That's like using Smash Bros to support Sonic feats

It being PiS I disagree with considering he had already seemingly defeated her offscreen, given the last time we saw her was grabbing onto Eggman’s ship.

If thats the case, then that kinda just muddies the feat up even more. We don't know how he defeated her and if we're assuming this was totally off screen, anything could happen kind of thing, I doubt he threw hands with Amy

Even if he did, I'd still call it PIS

The argument that it’s in-game stats doesn’t hold up imo, they could have easily made Robotnik a character less focused on stats (I.e giving him one star in power and speed or something similar), but he is consistently among the high tiers in terms of power. This was a deliberate choice the game made and I think writing it off as game mechanics doesn’t make sense, since it happens in 2 of the 3 games. Even in other sports game like Superstars Tennise, Eggman is classed as a power type, so this isn’t just a one-off.

Thats how games are balanced, its not a legitimate indication of Robotnik's power level. There's other games with whacky statistics like that, and whether or not they're accurate to the gameplay or not, one's like the Riders one are not reliable for powerscaling. And Superstars Tennis is non-canon. Please stop using those to support your argument

And the only argument against Starline is “outlier”, which is really arbitrary and hypocritical when the only evidence for MFTL+ base Eggman is two instances from the same arc where Eggman one-shot Starline, and we have two instances where Eggman holds his own (one occasion better than another) against base Sonic tiers physically in the same arc, but the speed is okay while the AP isn’t.

I don't know why you're talking about speed here, I'm mainly addressing AP/Durability here. In the face of the games' portrayal of characters and your evidence, Robotnik defeating Starline is definitely an outlier

I also never said him speed scaling through that instance was okay. Don't put words in my mouth

 

[JJSliderman]

A) Previously being canon =/= still applying to current canon. In some cases, it can, but if its non-canon in the current day in the context of Mainline Sonic, it can't be used
B) Why would Olympics be alright to use? That's like using Smash Bros to support Sonic feats

Using Smash Bros. is totally different because it’s cross scaling, Olympics is just Eggman scaling to other Sonic characters like he does in the games.

And Chronicles Eggman is still Low 2-C because he scales to a Low 2-C character in Shade, who is still accepted as Low 2-C, and Chronicles Eggman has no anti-feats.

If thats the case, then that kinda just muddies the feat up even more. We don't know how he defeated her and if we're assuming this was totally off screen, anything could happen kind of thing, I doubt he threw hands with Amy

Even if he did, I'd still call it PIS

Or, maybe Eggman just won legitimately, like he’s won fights legitimately in future arcs.

Thats how games are balanced, its not a legitimate indication of Robotnik's power level. There's other games with whacky statistics like that, and whether or not they're accurate to the gameplay or not, one's like the Riders one are not reliable for powerscaling. And Superstars Tennis is non-canon. Please stop using those to support your argument

I will keep using them because Eggman being a power type in these spin-off games is one of the most consistent things about him, and his in-game stats are straight up higher in the power department than any other character, without using tech. And again, they could have chosen any stats for Robotnik to demonstrate his weakness, but they specifically made him a strong character who can push aside other base characters with his strength advantage in-game, and did that for two games in this 3 game sub series at minimum, it’s not an outlier for him to be comparable in strength.

I don't know why you're talking about speed here, I'm mainly addressing AP/Durability here. In the face of the games' portrayal of characters and your evidence, Robotnik defeating Starline is definitely an outlier

It’s not an outlier if it’s one of the most recent events in the timeline and Starline’s durability isn’t even directly equal to base tiers, he is also downscaling their strength most likely. I don’t see why Eggman downscaling is a problem.

also never said him speed scaling through that instance was okay. Don't put words in my mouth

I didn’t mean you, I meant his profile, the two instances of him scaling in speed to base cast from that arc are already accepted, but for some reason Eggman one-shotting a low 2-C durability character isn’t. And the speed scaling is about as much of an isolated incident as the strength scaling.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

If this changes anything, Eggman physically intimidated Mimic, a Low 2-C character.
That, and Eggman has restrained Starline before. He is clearly defined as a physical superior to Starline.

 

[JJSliderman]

I don't know why you're talking about speed here, I'm mainly addressing AP/Durability here. In the face of the games' portrayal of characters and your evidence, Robotnik defeating Starline is definitely an outlier

Also never argued against how Eggman could hurt himself in Lost World and thus has another instance of harming someone with Low 2-C durability, making the Starline incident even less of an outlier.

 

[Lonkitt]

Using Smash Bros. is totally different because it’s cross scaling, Olympics is just Eggman scaling to other Sonic characters like he does in the games.

And Chronicles Eggman is still Low 2-C because he scales to a Low 2-C character in Shade, who is still accepted as Low 2-C, and Chronicles Eggman has no anti-feats.

And those games are still non-canon. Whats the point of rebutting my points in regards to them if we don't accept them as canon?

Or, maybe Eggman just won legitimately, like he’s won fights legitimately in future arcs.

Its technically possible. Technically. Literally anything could've happened offscreen. But we don't have solid proof of how that encounter went down. If we went with the most simple and logical explanation of how things went down, Robotnik would've used his tech. Ergo, its not in support of his physicality

At the end of the day, this instance tells us nothing and the idea of Robotnik somehow overcoming Amy physically is PIS based on what we see in the cutscene

I will keep using them because Eggman being a power type in these spin-off games is one of the most consistent things about him, and his in-game stats are straight up higher in the power department than any other character, without using tech. And again, they could have chosen any stats for Robotnik to demonstrate his weakness, but they specifically made him a strong character who can push aside other base characters with his strength advantage in-game, and did that for two games in this 3 game sub series at minimum, it’s not an outlier for him to be comparable in strength.

By this logic, Robotnik is stronger than Sonic and the other cast members

Lets really think about that given all the times Sonic and co bust up his shit and Robotnik either begs them to not beat his ass or retreats

Doesn't add up, does it? Especially since this the power type stuff is a gameplay factor only

It’s not an outlier if it’s one of the most recent events in the timeline and Starline’s durability isn’t even directly equal to base tiers, he is also downscaling their strength most likely. I don’t see why Eggman downscaling is a problem.

Downscaling is a problem given you literally just said he was stronger/could accomplish feats of physicality guys like Sonic can't

Also never argued against how Eggman could hurt himself in Lost World and thus has another instance of harming someone with Low 2-C durability, making the Starline incident even less of an outlier.

Like Mav said, this is a terrible feat to list for Low 2-C support. The dude punched a brick of ice


I haven't been swayed to agree with the upgrades. I'm continuing to disagree for the reasons I listed

 

[Lonkitt]

If this changes anything, Eggman physically intimidated Mimic, a Low 2-C character.
That, and Eggman has restrained Starline before. He is clearly defined as a physical superior to Starline.

There's far more against Robotnik being Low 2-C than there is for him being Low 2-C through Starline

 

[JJSliderman]

And those games are still non-canon. Whats the point of rebutting my points in regards to them if we don't accept them as canon?

Because you haven’t provided a reason why this non-canon game Eggman shouldn’t be Low 2-C if he has no anti-feats, you can make a separate key for “Chronicles” Eggman and it works. But more likely, Eggman doesn’t actually grow infinitely stronger for Chronicles only and he just is that strong all the time.

It’s technically possible. Technically. Literally anything could've happened offscreen. But we don't have solid proof of how that encounter went down. If we went with the most simple and logical explanation of how things went down, Robotnik would've used his tech. Ergo, its not in support of his physicality

At the end of the day, this instance tells us nothing and the idea of Robotnik somehow overcoming Amy physically is PIS based on what we see in the cutscene

What we see in the cutscene is Robotnik restraining Amy and her being unable to do anything or even break his grip, which shouldn’t be possible if Amy is literally infinitely stronger than him.

By this logic, Robotnik is stronger than Sonic and the other cast members

Lets really think about that given all the times Sonic and co bust up his shit and Robotnik either begs him to not beat his ass or retreats

Doesn't add up, does it? Especially since this the power type stuff is a gameplay factor only


Downscaling is a problem given you literally just said he was stronger/could accomplish feats of physicality guys like Sonic can't

All this scaling is from Riders which is 2006-2008, Eggman is obviously not stronger than 2017 Sonic. Sonic consistently grows in power, Eggman scales to the very lowest of Low 2-C base forms.

Like Mav said, this is a terrible feat to list for Low 2-C support. The dude punched a brick of ice

He. Hurt himself. Eggman has Low 2-C durability. Ergo Eggman can hurt Low 2-C durability. Like what exactly is the context he needs to hurt himself in before this is just accepted?

 

[Lonkitt]

Because you haven’t provided a reason why this non-canon game Eggman shouldn’t be Low 2-C if he has no anti-feats, you can make a separate key for “Chronicles” Eggman and it works. But more likely, Eggman doesn’t actually grow infinitely stronger for Chronicles only and he just is that strong all the time.

JJ, I don't need to argue against that because the non-canon nature of this makes anything about this specific argument moot. Why would I need to argue for that. It is literally not within the Mainline Sonic canon. That also means it doesn't warrant a key for the page

Chronicles isn't pulling any weight in your favour. You're gonna have to let that go

What we see in the cutscene is Robotnik restraining Amy and her being unable to do anything or even break his grip, which shouldn’t be possible if Amy is literally infinitely stronger than him.

Not really restraining her if her arms and legs are totally free and he's just holding her from behind the neck or clothes or whatever. Not to mention, she looks drained/tired, so she's not even trying to do anything

And again. It wouldn't matter if he did restrain her because I already made my points for why him grabbing her and using her as leverage is PIS

All this scaling is from Riders which is 2006-2008, Eggman is obviously not stronger than 2017 Sonic. Sonic consistently grows in power, Eggman scales to the very lowest of Low 2-C base forms.

You're still arguing that Robotnik was at one point stronger than Sonic to the point where he could pull off feats of strength that Sonic couldn't

I'm not buying that based on how he's consistently portrayed when in the face of Sonic and co without any tech on hand

He. Hurt himself. Eggman has Low 2-C durability. Ergo Eggman can hurt Low 2-C durability. Like what exactly is the context he needs to hurt himself in before this is just accepted?

I am aware. And he did that through punching a brick of ice. Again, you're using this as support that Robotnik is both stronger than Sonic and is Low 2-C because he punched a brick of ice a few times and it was implied to hurt. Thats not a feat. Thats an anti-feat

You can stop responding to me because I'm not playing this back and forth when I've made it very clear why I disagree with your proposals

 

[JJSliderman]

I don’t know what context Eggman needs to hurt himself to get Low 2-C and I wasn’t even aware he needed to hurt himself in a specific way. I guess that’s my fault for assuming basic logic should apply oops.

How many times does Eggman actually beg for mercy in the modern era? There was Surge, a character on par with post-Forces Base Sonic, there was him begging for Super Sonic to save him, and not much else.

The argument you made for PiS is because…Eggman did it and he doesn’t scale because potatoes/“muh outlier” or Amy not pulling out her hammer, even though she maybe just couldn’t reach it cuz Eggman was restraining her.

Eggman’s page is literally called Dr. Eggman (Game). Chronicles is a game, a game in the Sonic series wholly. As such, it should qualify for a “game” Eggman page.

 

[Lonkitt]

The argument you made for PiS is because…Eggman did it and he doesn’t scale because potatoes/“muh outlier”.

That is literally not the argument I made lmfao

I said its PIS because:
A) It happened offscreen, ergo, we don't know how the encounter went down
B) Assuming he just snatched her and she didn't put up a fight makes no sense. She's shown her looking drained and sad, not attempting to escape at all. If you assume she's at full power to support Robotnik scales, it makes no sense because thats totally out of character for her to not try and beat the shit out of Robotnik given her character and the fact that her arms and legs are free. If you assume she's weakened from the previous fight, then Robotnik's just carrying around a vulnerable hostage. Not very impressive

Eggman’s page is literally called Dr. Eggman (Game). Chronicles is a game, a game in the Sonic series wholly. As such, it should qualify for a “game” Eggman page.

Sonic's been in many games. Not all of them are canon. Your logic is faulty at best. You know very well this page covers Mainline Robotnik

How many times does Eggman actually beg for mercy in the modern era? There was Surge, a character on par with post-Forces Base Sonic, there was him begging for Super Sonic to save him, and not much else.

The dude was backing away in fear when the Chaotix were cornering him. Thats one example I can list off the top of my head. Also I didn't say he only begs for mercy, he also tries retreating. Both are indicators of "yeah, its more favourable for me to not try fighting because I won't win"

I don’t know what context Eggman needs to hurt himself to get Low 2-C and I wasn’t even aware he needed to hurt himself in a specific way. I guess that’s my fault for assuming basic logic should apply oops.

I would appreciate it if you didn't treat me like an idiot by being condescending. And yes, characters can harm themselves in more direct ways in which scaling to their durability is applicable. Punching a brick of ice without any special traits is not one of them

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Eggman’s page is literally called Dr. Eggman (Game). Chronicles is a game, a game in the Sonic series wholly. As such, it should qualify for a “game” Eggman page.

This is just being disingenuous. You’re well aware this wiki has considered Chronicles non-canon since the Encyclo-speed-ia dropped, as you participated in the thread where it was agreed to be excluded from the profiles.

 

[JJSliderman]

Eggman isn’t shown using his guns the entire time he fights Amy, and in the races he can damage opponents just by using generic Party poppers, so I don’t think that he needs his weapons to do so. Plus, Amy has a lower power stat than Eggman, so Eggman physically winning isn’t contradicted.

Sonic itself has a very loose canon and Ian basically confirmed every game exists in the multiverse somewhere going off the TailsTube, the idea of an Eggman this strong isn’t infeasible. And I understand Chronicles is non-canon, but if the characters from it are still going to get canon scaling, I don’t see why Eggman can’t also get it. He’s not amped for this game in any way, he’s treated as the same character from the canon entries, and the game itself is a sequel to Battle and the only reason for it to not be used is a dumb Archie comics writer

The Chaotix instance was Adventure era, doesn’t apply to what this revision is about. And just because he has the strength to harm these characters doesn’t mean he would win a fight with them 100% of the time, obviously his mechs give him more of an advantage. Eggman treats fighting as a last resort, ergo he downscales.

Lowkey these standards for hurting yourself feel very arbitrary, hurting yourself is hurting yourself, it shouldn’t matter how it’s done

 

[Lonkitt]

Eggman isn’t shown using his guns the entire time he fights Amy, and in the races he can damage opponents just by using generic Party poppers, so I don’t think that he needs his weapons to do so. Plus, Amy has a lower power stat than Eggman, so Eggman physically winning isn’t contradicted.

Relying on the stats to back up your argument isn't convincing. We just went over why its not useable

The fight was offscreen. We didn't get to see the fight with Amy. Why are you pretending you knew how it went down....?

Sonic itself has a very loose canon and Ian basically confirmed every game exists in the multiverse somewhere going off the TailsTube, the idea of an Eggman this strong isn’t infeasible. And I understand Chronicles is non-canon, but if the characters from it are still going to get canon scaling, I don’t see why Eggman can’t also get it.

Existing in the multiverse doesn't mean everything applies back to Mainline Sonic. Not how things operate. You know this yourself, given you were there for the Chronicles thread

Why are you contradicting yourself?

The Chaotix instance was Adventure era, doesn’t apply to what this revision is about. And just because he has the strength to harm these characters doesn’t mean he would win a fight with them 100% of the time, obviously his mechs give him more of an advantage. Eggman treats fighting as a last resort, ergo he downscales.

And yet, you're arguing Robotnik is physically superior to guys like Sonic. Funny how you claim he downscales though too

You're somehow contradicting your own proposal

Lowkey these standards for hurting yourself feel very arbitrary, hurting yourself is hurting yourself, it shouldn’t matter how it’s done

Punching a brick of ice multiple times that hurts you in turn is an anti-feat for Low 2-C. I dunno what to tell you

 

[JJSliderman]

Relying on the stats to back up your argument isn't convincing. We just went over why its not useable

The fight was offscreen. We didn't get to see the fight with Amy. Why are you pretending you knew how it went down....?

Why is relying on stats a bad thing if we are presented a direct comparison between characters, very blatantly too. Because it’s game mechanics? Mechanics that are consistent across titles and even across multiple spin-off series? Don’t buy it.

Existing in the multiverse doesn't mean everything applies back to Mainline Sonic. Not how things operate. You know this yourself, given you were there for the Chronicles thread

Why are you contradicting yourself?

The game itself is by all intents and purposes applicable to mainline and the characters aren’t portrayed as any stronger or weaker than they are in mainline titles, and they even get the feats from mainline titles for the exclusive characters, Eggman should be no different.

And yet, you're arguing Robotnik is physically superior to guys like Sonic. Funny how you claim he downscales though too

You're somehow contradicting your own proposal

Being physically stronger doesn’t mean Eggman would win a fight, that’s Sonic’s whole ethos. His other stats are not very good in comparison and he lacks hax by himself.

Punching a brick of ice multiple times that hurts you in turn is an anti-feat for Low 2-C. I dunno what to tell you

Eggman is obviously not wall level, ergo him punching the wall is not the extent of his power. So the only logical conclusion is that he broke the wall with his power, and also hurt himself, which means he was punching at Low 2-C. Sonic doesn’t break every single wall with one punch either but no one complains there.

 

[Lonkitt]

Why is relying on stats a bad thing if we are presented a direct comparison between characters, very blatantly too. Because it’s game mechanics? Mechanics that are consistent across titles and even across multiple spin-off series? Don’t buy it.

A) The stats are strictly gameplay based, not narrative based. Thats how games are balanced so the choosing characters to use isn't one-sided
B) Using evidence across non-canon games speaks for itself. It isn't applicable. Why do you insist these are smoking gun pieces of evidence?

The game itself is by all intents and purposes applicable to mainline and the characters aren’t portrayed as any stronger or weaker than they are in mainline titles, and they even get the feats from mainline titles for the exclusive characters, Eggman should be no different.

"By all intents and purposes" huh? Okay, cool. So if something is called non-canon, we can use it despite literally having never happened in mainline, despite mainline's canon material being what these specific profiles are based on

That is not at all by all intents and purposes

Being physically stronger doesn’t mean Eggman would win a fight, that’s Sonic’s whole ethos. His other stats are not very good in comparison and he lacks hax by himself.

You're claiming Robotnik is strong enough to where he can pull off feats Sonic can't. That's still more than enough of a strength advantage to where he shouldn't be consistently fleeing for an escape or the next giant mecha when one of his machines blows up

Eggman is obviously not wall level, ergo him punching the wall is not the extent of his power. So the only logical conclusion is that he broke the wall with his power, and also hurt himself, which means he was punching at Low 2-C. Sonic doesn’t break every single wall with one punch either but no one complains there.

JJ. I'm not having an issue understanding the proposal. Its just an anti-feat

Because when Sonic doesn't break a wall in one hit, that's not a giant cutscene. Its a gameplay mechanic


Can we stop the back and forth? I've made my arguments very clear. Lets agree to disagree. I've made my evaluation, which is a disagreement with the OP

 

[JJSliderman]

I’m sorry but I’m not just gonna stop arguing my case, the whole point of a debate is to try and convince the other side of your points.

If the goal was to make it so choosing characters didn’t make a one-sided competition, everyone would just have the same stats, everyone is split into different categories for a reason and Eggman is just one of the power category characters. It’s not that complicated.

And yes I’d argue that the scaling used for Eggman from Chronicles is fine despite the game being non-canon, because the game might as well be canon everywhere except the lawsuit-wise. It follows up on canon games very explicitly.

Sonic Battle debunks the idea that being strong is all it takes to beat Sonic, Knuckles is stronger than Sonic yet his fighting styles is sloppy enough Sonic can easily discern how to beat it. Eggman doesn’t even have much formal combat training other than throwing things.

I think I just fundamentally disagree on it being an anti-feat, Eggman hurts himself ergo he has attack power on par with his durability, which is later shown when he one-shots and manhandles a character with the same level of durability in the form of Starline (which has no counter besides outlier, a meaningless buzz word in this instance).

 

[Lonkitt]

I’m sorry but I’m not just gonna stop arguing my case, the whole point of a debate is to try and convince the other side of your points.

And you can keep arguing those points. I never said you couldn't. Just stop responding to me specifically because I've made myself clear. Please respect my request so we don't have to end this on a sour note. Debating doesn't mean it has to go on until one side concedes and I'm sure as hell not conceding. I've just made my points on why my vote is a disagreement and want to avoid this back and forth

My opinion's aren't budging

I’m sorry but I’m not just gonna stop arguing my case, the whole point of a debate is to try and convince the other side of your points.

If the goal was to make it so choosing characters didn’t make a one-sided competition, everyone would just have the same stats, everyone is split into different categories for a reason and Eggman is just one of the power category characters. It’s not that complicated.

And yes I’d argue that the scaling used for Eggman from Chronicles is fine despite the game being non-canon, because the game might as well be canon everywhere except the lawsuit-wise. It follows up on canon games very explicitly.

Sonic Battle debunks the idea that being strong is all it takes to beat Sonic, Knuckles is stronger than Sonic yet his fighting styles is sloppy enough Sonic can easily discern how to beat it. Eggman doesn’t even have much formal combat training other than throwing things.

I think I just fundamentally disagree on it being an anti-feat, Eggman hurts himself ergo he has attack power on par with his durability, which is later shown when he one-shots and manhandles a character with the same level of durability in the form of Starline (which has no counter besides outlier, a meaningless buzz word in this instance).

Final response from me. I'm not wasting anymore time on this:

A) Balance doesn't mean everyone has the same stats. That way, its not fun. Making things balanced, but entertaining and unique is the goal. Its why all fighting game characters aren't blank slate copies of each other. Balance is desired, but in a way that isn't stale and boring. This really isn't a complicated philosophy, ask any game designer. Hell ask any game player for that matter

B) You are not using the term lawsuit correctly here. Like, at all. And no, thats not how canon operates. Take it up with the wiki and the term canon in general

C) You're claiming Robotnik can perform feats Sonic is incapable of because of the power class thing. Consistently, Knuckles is stronger than Sonic, but not to that degree. More often than not, the power difference between Sonic and Knux is rather arbitrary because ultimately, they're relative enough

D) You can fundamentally disagree with it. But the context makes it an anti-feat if you'd like to argue he scales to Low 2-C

 

[JJSliderman]

Alright, just know I disagree with all of those things for reasons I’ve stated.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I disagree for many of the reasons others raised.

 

[StekFence]

I would argue performing a wall level feat is an outlier if it hurt the guy in question. Even if the character was already established to have tier 1 stats, it would still be an outlier.
Further more, it doesn’t matter that you’d argue chronicles scaling is fine, because the wiki doesn’t accept it as fine. You would need to make a crt.

 

[JJSliderman]

Fine, Chronicles isn’t even necessary. Eggman stomping Starline is a very blatant Low 2-C feat and until someone debunks it, I don’t see why Eggman shouldn’t be Low 2-C. Either make Eggman Low 2-C or take away Starline’s baseline Low 2-C durability, any other scenario makes zero sense from a logic standpoint. Outlier is a bad argument when not only is all of Eggman’s MFTL base scaling from this single comic arc out of going on 17 years, but Base Sonic was accepted as 4-A off a single feat and scaling to said feat, number of feats clearly isn’t the problem. If the problem is Eggman retreating a lot, say he downscales and can’t win fights but is still in the ballpark, especially if this is a new direction Eggman is taking in these comics.

 

[Theuser789]

If this changes anything, Eggman physically intimidated Mimic, a Low 2-C character.
That, and Eggman has restrained Starline before. He is clearly defined as a physical superior to Starline.

Personally, I don't think Starline without the tri-core should scale to the main cast. He's clearly portrayed as being physically inferior to the main cast in the comic.

 

[JJSliderman]

Starline did tank hits from serious Amy and stayed conscious, meanwhile Eggman knocked him out in one blow.

But if Starline has Low 2-C base durability removed I can accept Eggman not scaling physically (his guns should scale though)

 

[Omegabronic]

Starline did tank hits from serious Amy and stayed conscious, meanwhile Eggman knocked him out in one blow.

But if Starline has Low 2-C base durability removed I can accept Eggman not scaling physically (his guns should scale though)

The argument of it being an oultier for eggman has nothing to do with the feats from starline

 

[JJSliderman]

And I say it being an outlier is dumb when Eggman consistently manhandles Starline and Sonic characters have had accepted ratings based off a single feat before (like when they were 4-A), and how Eggman is accepted as MFTL+ in base despite only having two feats from the same arc that he one-shot Starline in.

 

[JJSliderman]

Decided to add Eggman scaling to Cubot’s durability, since he almost always overpowered Cubot every time Eggman tried to hurt him, and Cubot tanked a spindash from Sonic in a cutscene in Lost World with seemingly no damage. He also pushes Tails to the ground and Tails cannot overpower Eggman to get Eggman off of him, but that might have just been Tails not trying because Eggman saved him.

So now in IDW Eggman can physically overpower the durability of two Low 2-C durability characters, as he leaves lasting damage on Cubot by preventing him from uncompressing. IDW Eggman should probably be at the point where he’s in the ballpark of a casual Base Sonic cast, not infinitely below them but not at their level.

 

[y3p_owo]

Cubot tanked a spindash from Sonic in a cutscene in Lost World with seemingly no damage.

Sonic likely was holding back just to get Cubot's head off the body. Also, Cubot neither looks stunned nor really groggy in the Forces cutscene, but that's just me.

Also, I don't get how pushing people equals to Eggman scaling to Low 2-C. You can still push someone and still have them fall over or something like that.

 

[JJSliderman]

Eggman doesn’t just push Cubot, he slams down on him in Imposter Syndrome and the force causes damage to him, as he’s unable to decompress himself like usual (something Starline points out).

And considering Cubot was attacking Tails with intent to kill, Sonic likely put some effort in. It shows Eggman scales to a held back Sonic, who shouldn’t be infinitely weaker than his standard power.

 

[DaReaperMan]

I disagree FRA