Dragon Ball's Main Cannon Timeline number downgrade

[Ednaxel2]

BoG's feat is tier 2 for affecting space-time. Unless it gets changed elsewhere, it'd become Low 2-C as of now.

There aren't any statements suggesting it was destroying the entire space-time structure of the universe so I don't see why we'd have it as that. in fact we're told it'll be left as a vaccum, where there will be nothing in the universe, so the feat most likely refers to just all physical matter in the macrocosm. We've never had it as Low 2-C before either, its just been 3-A without the cosmology compositing

Wait which Goku is this?

It was a joke but him

Wrong thread I think?, also goten in the same tier as destroyers is truly cursed

This thread attempts to downgrade the cosmology, we need to know how the characters would get affected by this thus we just get it done in this thread

i don't think justin chatwin goku is low 1-c

mb tier -1

 

[omegabronic]

BoG's feat is tier 2 for affecting space-time. Unless it gets changed elsewhere, it'd become Low 2-C as of now.

It affected space time?

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

There aren't any statements suggesting it was destroying the entire space-time structure of the universe so I don't see why we'd have it as that. in fact we're told it'll be left as a vaccum, where there will be nothing in the universe, so the feat most likely refers to just all physical matter in the macrocosm. We've never had it as Low 2-C before either, its just been 3-A without the cosmology compositing

Ok, sure? We treat it that way, since it affects multiple realms, and by extension space-time. Matter destruction can't cross spatially separated realms. It doesn't have the power to affect the fabric of reality by standards.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

It affected space time?

If it didn't it would've been 3-A even now.

 

[omegabronic]

Ok, sure? We treat it that way, since it affects multiple realms, and by extension space-time. Matter destruction can't cross spatially separated realms. It doesn't have the power to affect the fabric of reality by standards.

WAsn't it still 3-A even with that before?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

says that the 5 he showed beerus where all that there were

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

WAsn't it still 3-A even with that before?

Even if it was, the current justification wouldn't match. And it'd need to be changed, which as you pointed out here and elsewhere,is not the purpose of the thread. Unless you wanna do it at once.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Ok, sure? We treat it that way, since it affects multiple realms, and by extension space-time. Matter destruction can't cross spatially separated realms. It doesn't have the power to affect the fabric of reality by standards.

Unrelated, but man, I tried arguing this for Beerus and Champa's feat being 2-C years ago, and all I got was an At least Low 2-C. Funny how things change.

 

[omegabronic]

Even if it was, the current justification wouldn't match. And it'd need to be changed, which as you pointed out here and elsewhere,is not the purpose of the thread. Unless you wanna do it at once.

Fair enough then

 

[Ednaxel2]

Ok, sure? We treat it that way, since it affects multiple realms, and by extension space-time. Matter destruction can't cross spatially separated realms. It doesn't have the power to affect the fabric of reality by standards.

Either way we don't have proof for it crossing beyond the entire macrocosm spacetime structure, just all the stuff in it

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Anyways, a quick thought on the thread, because I'm not that much interested in this:

Argument 1 "Time Travel"

The point might even be valid, if there weren't things such as Beerus splitting the timeline by EE'ing Zamasu (the counterargument is usually that it was an indirect cause of Trunks' time machine, but Whis states it was due to Beerus' action, so burden of proof on the opposition) which is 'not just by time travel' and fits under the 'smallest of things'. I'd argue on the Time Rings point, but I'd like to ask what timelines are being represented by these five Time Rings before doing that.

Argument 3 "One-way flow of time"

Time flowing only forwards is...well, logical? This is how it works normally because of a thing called Entropy, which makes time move only forwards.
And no, before y'all mention it, MWI does not change this. One of the things that differentiates it from other cosmological theories is that MWI actually follows the laws of physics. Time flows linearly.

"But time branches, so how can that be?" Time doesn't branch in the real sense of the word. No Branching happens in the MWI, it's just a convention used to simplify the interpretation to the average people like us (check Sean Carroll and co). And it's a concept that fiction uses even more.

Regardless, in here Time goes different, as Whis said, because that event ends up with the existence of another timeline, which is forbidden. As simple as that.

 

[omegabronic]

Anyways, a quick thought on the thread, because I'm not that much interested in this:

Argument 1 "Time Travel"

The point might even be valid, if there weren't things such as Beerus splitting the timeline by EE'ing Zamasu (the counterargument is usually that it was an indirect cause of Trunks' time machine, but Whis states it was due to Beerus' action, so burden of proof on the opposition) which is 'not just by time travel' and fits under the 'smallest of things'. I'd argue on the Time Rings point, but I'd like to ask what timelines are being represented by these five Time Rings before doing that.

Yeah, it was Beerus' action that generated another timeline, said action only happened due to Trunks' alteration of history changing Beerus' original actions, which is the entire context which Trunks said thar phrase, with translation and suolementary information comfirming further what he was talking about there

The time ring showed when talked about the ring Beerus created is green like all the others created from Trunks' time travel btw so if that was an example of the supposedly "MWI timelines that are constantly created" then more than 5 rings would exist

Argument 3 "One-way flow of time"

Time flowing only forwards is...well, logical? This is how it works normally because of a thing called Entropy, which makes time move only forwards.
And no, before y'all mention it, MWI does not change this. One of the things that differentiates it from other cosmological theories is that MWI actually follows the laws of physics. Time flows linearly.

"But time branches, so how can that be?" Time doesn't branch in the real sense of the word. No Branching happens in the MWI, it's just a convention used to simplify the interpretation to the average people like us (check Sean Carroll and co). And it's a concept that fiction uses even more.

Regardless, in here Time goes different, as Whis said, because that event ends up with the existence of another timeline, which is forbidden. As simple as that.

Which is why by context i explained how he is using "time" and "history" in the same meaning, hence why he said when one changes "its" past, referencing his mention of "time" earlier in the phrase, thus saying that history originally only "flows"/"follows" one direction

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

There aren't any statements suggesting it was destroying the entire space-time structure of the universe so I don't see why we'd have it as that. in fact we're told it'll be left as a vaccum, where there will be nothing in the universe, so the feat most likely refers to just all physical matter in the macrocosm. We've never had it as Low 2-C before either, its just been 3-A without the cosmology compositing

It was a joke but him

This thread attempts to downgrade the cosmology, we need to know how the characters would get affected by this thus we just get it done in this thread

mb tier -1

In fact, the waves reached other realms, as you can see in this video

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Yeah, it was Beerus' action that generated another timeline, said action only happened due to Trunks' alteration of history changing Beerus' original actions, which is the entire context which Trunks said thar phrase, with translation and suolementary information comfirming further what he was talking about there

And...??? Beerus did that by himself. Even assuming said event only happened thanks to Trunks, Beerus' action shouldn't have branched the timeline, which is the focal point here. In a multiverse where only time travel splits the timeline, such an action should have not,yet it did,no matter how you try to explain it. This isn't a matter of information, it's a matter of logic. It's literally a loophole.

The time ring showed when talked about the ring Beerus created is green like all the others created from Trunks' time travel btw so if that was an example of the supposedly "MWI timelines that are constantly created" then more than 5 rings would exist.

Time Rings are created when time travel is involved according to you. MWI acts even with quantum interactions, so no Time Ring would get created by your logic.

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Yeah, it was Beerus' action that generated another timeline, said action only happened due to Trunks' alteration of history changing Beerus' original actions, which is the entire context which Trunks said thar phrase, with translation and suolementary information comfirming further what he was talking about there

No that’s not true it happed because Beerus erased. Whis explained that when he killed Zamasu he altered history, Beerus even mistakenly thought that he didn’t create a split in time.

The time ring showed when talked about the ring Beerus created is green like all the others created from Trunks' time travel btw so if that was an example of the supposedly "MWI timelines that are constantly created" then more than 5 rings would exist

Well that’s impossible because Beerus never once left his timeline so his actions following the CRTs argument would have had zero effect on history. Plus there were only 5 time rings that were in relevance to the situation they were in.

Which is why by context i explained how he is using "time" and "history" in the same meaning, hence why he said when one changes "its" past, referencing his mention of "time" earlier in the phrase, thus saying that history originally only "flows"/"follows" one direction

Ignoring the fact that this principle of changing the past alters the future is impossible because time machines don’t time travel like time rings.

Whis statement doesn’t even imply what you’re saying nor does it have anything to do with the situation of the MWI. Whis assumed the Time Machine worked like the time rings which do change the past.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

(the counterargument is usually that it was an indirect cause of Trunks' time machine, but Whis states it was due to Beerus' action, so burden of proof on the opposition)

(Sorry, I'm on my phone right now, I can't gather the appropriate footage.) Towards the end Episode 59, after Beerus returns from destroying Zamasu, Trunks informs the former that, previously, defeating the present Androids had zero impact on the future; then, Beerus says "That's your mortal logic. There's no way a god destroying a god won't have an effect on space-time", implying that the Hakai's unique attributes is what caused history to reorganize.

Goku Black (Zamasu) should have been erased in the future as his present self was, which is (as Future Trunks established) unique to the Hakai.

under the 'smallest of things'.

Again, the "smallest of things" Trunks was using as an example were Goku dying to the heart virus and he, himself, traveling back in time and saving Goku from said death.

Moreover,

Specifically, a parallel world is produced when history is rewritten because altering the past disrupts the time axis, which naturally only progresses in a single direction.

I'd argue on the Time Rings point, but I'd like to ask what timelines are being represented by these five Time Rings before doing that.

Of the four green Time Rings, one is Future Trunks's world, and one is Goku Black's world. Based off of that, we can reasonably extrapolate that the two additional rings represent the two additional worlds introduced in the original Android Saga: Cell's world, and the world that Cell's Trunks traveled to before getting killed.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

In the manga it is also confirmed that third party choices can create other timelines



What is confirmed later, nothing Omega said refutes the MWI, the smallest things still make many worlds without even stepping into a time machine

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

(Sorry, I'm on my phone right now, I can't gather the appropriate footage.) Towards the end Episode 59, after Beerus returns from destroying Zamasu, Trunks informs the former that, previously, defeating the present Androids had zero impact on the future; then, Beerus says "That's your mortal logic. There's no way a god destroying a god won't have an effect on space-time", implying that the Hakai's unique attributes is what caused history to reorganize.

Goku Black (Zamasu) should have been erased in the future as his present self was, which is (as Future Trunks established) unique to the Hakai.

No problem. I knew of the Hakai point, which is what I waited for. I used it since we don't accept Hakai having an effect on space-time (due to Future Zamasu surviving ig?) which is weird.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If it didn't it would've been 3-A even now.

Nah, I am pretty sure that destroying a 2-C or above thing by default is Tier 2 coz of the 5D axis thingy.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Nah, I am pretty sure that destroying a 2-C or above thing by default is Tier 2 coz of the 5D axis thingy.

Right,I forgot about that.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

No problem. I knew of the Hakai point, which is what I waited for. I used it since we don't accept Hakai having an effect on space-time (due to Future Zamasu surviving ig?) which is weird.

Downgrade cosmology, upgrade hakai, hell yeah

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Downgrade cosmology, upgrade hakai, hell yeah

I'm not really,well, bothered,since I deal with the all compositing game verse.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Downgrade cosmology, upgrade hakai, hell yeah

I was already wanting to do, 5D hakai happening

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I was already wanting to do, 5D hakai happening

That ain't happening lad.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Besides that, I do think that the Cosmologies would be the same across all the continuities due to the authors seemingly treating them as the same across all medias, Toriyama himself believes that the anime and manga are even the same, so yeah.

They weren't composited due to them being in same multiverse, but due to authors not believing there are any differences between them.

Plus, arguing that DBGT characters stomp DBS ones coz "lol cosmology" is just absurd.

Now, the downgrade of the universes to 3-A/Low 2-C is another thing altogether.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

In the manga it is also confirmed that third party choices can create other timelines

By changing the future.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

To give my proper thoughts, even in one of the og threads dealing with this, I was neutral with considering the entire thing as canon to each other. However, Toriyama's musings and what he worked on should be considered valid for the different canons.

Nothing here really has changed my views on that.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Plus, arguing that DBGT characters stomp DBS ones coz "lol cosmology" is just absurd.

Argument from incredulity, GT supremacy

Agree with you tho

 

[StrymULTRA]

Argument from incredulity, GT supremacy

I myself do believe that DBGT is like super downplayed here, we do not even have a SSJ4 Multiplier, and profiles are super outdated in general.

But that ain't the way to say how GOATed SSJ4 is compared to Blue unfortunately.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Argument from incredulity, GT supremacy

Agree with you tho

Yeah, I feel the same way as Strym.

 

[RedReaper616]

Low 1-C - Grand Priest (DBS Manga), Zeno and Goku (Evolution)

I’m going to start the Zero Mortals Plan if I see this man at Low 1-C again. He’s NOT on Zeno’s level in any way whatsoever. One panel of Whis gassing up his dad as the best fighter does not trump Zeno being the most powerful being due to being the equivalent of an unstoppable god manchild.

 

[Ednaxel2]

I’m going to start the Zero Mortals Plan if I see this man at Low 1-C again. He’s NOT on Zeno’s level in any way whatsoever. One panel of Whis gassing up his dad as the best fighter does not trump Zeno being the most powerful being due to being the equivalent of an unstoppable god manchild.

Again? Currently he still is

 

[RedReaper616]

Again? Currently he still is

Revisions will be made…revisions will be made…

 

[ChoursDropoff]

Toriyama treats the cosmology to be the same, since he considers the tv anime and the manga in "one dimension", not like in the same physical timeline, but rather all the elements introduced in them, at least for cosmology, not characters. Meaning that this would mean the cosmological elements should be kept for all the series. Along with there being all kinds of parallel timelines and futures they could go too. Essentially just reaffirming toriyama's statements about the movies, and the anime being in a different dimension. "Stories in a different dimension for the main comic". More evidence they should be treated the same. "A different history". So like regardless of the timeline number, it should still have the same cosmology regardless of this thread due to the above statements, heres another one, "tons of parallel worlds", which supports there being more time rings, than what we see. Dr slump mentioning GT.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Toriyama treats the cosmology to be the same, since he considers the tv anime and the manga in "one dimension"

It's fake, lol.

 

[RedReaper616]

Toriyama treats the cosmology to be the same, since he considers the tv anime and the manga in "one dimension", not like in the same physical timeline, but rather all the elements introduced in them, at least for cosmology, not characters. Meaning that this would mean the cosmological elements should be kept for all the series. Along with there being all kinds of parallel timelines and futures they could go too. Essentially just reaffirming toriyama's statements about the movies, and the anime being in a different dimension. "Stories in a different dimension for the main comic". More evidence they should be treated the same. "A different history". So like regardless of the timeline number, it should still have the same cosmology regardless of this thread due to the above statements, heres another one, "tons of parallel worlds", which supports there being more time rings, than what we see. Dr slump mentioning GT.

My guy, 90% of this is like directly covered already-

 

[ChoursDropoff]

My guy, 90% of this is like directly covered already-

Can hurt to go over it again

 

[StrymULTRA]

It's fake, lol.

Wtf

 

[Nullflowerblush]

American version of Shonen Jump 2003, issue #1.

 

[Chariot190]

In the manga it is also confirmed that third party choices can create other timelines



What is confirmed later, nothing Omega said refutes the MWI, the smallest things still make many worlds without even stepping into a time machine

Doesnt this literally prove some of OP's points in how numbered the unis are, given bro is shocked simply to find an extra, which is the byproduct of Beerus changing the future.

All this scam confirms is deliberate changes in the past can create a new timeline if it differs from an established future, and that they magically show up in that box, a limited amount.