• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Dragon Ball's Main Cannon Timeline number downgrade

Status
Not open for further replies.
omegabronic said:
Actually iirc another thread with that taken into account, that being Luffy's thread i linked here a feel times already, and it was rejected, if someone wanted to do another thread to make it accepted they are free, but i wouldn't want to do that with this thread when it was rejected prior, also iirc Exe's translation were taken into account in the old thread as well

as we stand the only justification given for shared cosmology is that they are cannon timelines, that's all we have currently


Afaik we don't have this information outside of the toei anime, Besides, space time barriers would proove space time, but not the size which, again, is only given via cross scaling with toei, making the universe low 2-C


If it is because of some new founded statements of production with Akira not already used in luffy's thread(which would surprise me with the sheer amount he used) that would suggest the share of cosmology.......well everyone's free to a new thread to try and make that accepted, but as we stand currently, that isn't used to justify the composited cosmology
Click to expand...
Well of course, I still remember staff majority including myself, Antvasima, and Garrixian agreeing that we should use Toriyama's notes. Because quite a few things such as Earth, the Milky Way Galaxy, and by extension our interpretation of the Observable Universe from Earth and its 6.93626 * 10^21 Squared Lightyears area of space being located within the North Quadrant in Toei's case or the "Edge of the Universe" in DBS's case are both extremely consistent. And Toriyama's statements about the Other World having some Space-Time related separation/barriers was still noted. And it was clearly intended to apply for his original manga given that it again, was something he always had notes for before the Anime statements even existed. What you are getting from Toei is stuff like mentioning "No flow of time" and what not within the Other World. The destruction of both the Living World and Other World becoming a 2-C feat was still something that came from Toriyama's illustration noted by Executor. Also, I trust Executor when it comes to translation stuff combined with cosmology statements; he's like right up there with DontTalkDT and Ultima Reality when it comes to how knowledgeable he is on those things.
 
Killerdrone123 said:


It literally uses a panel from manga idk how you got anime only
Click to expand...


I have the Spanish version and it doesn't say it's an anime, Null must have been mistaken,something that happens every time.

Heaven
(L) Beyond.
(C) World where the souls of good people live.
(1) Goku trained here for the 25th Tenkaichi Budôkai.
(A) The souls of the good people that the great King Enma separated gather here. It's a place as vast as the universe and its entire surface is a field of flowers.

 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Well of course, I still remember staff majority including myself, Antvasima, and Garrixian agreeing that we should use Toriyama's notes.
Click to expand...
The difference in votes for that was only of 1, can't remember from which side now, but still, it wasn't really a big majority either way

besides thst we would need to define which of said notes to usr
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Because quite a few things such as Earth, the Milky Way Galaxy, and by extension our interpretation of the Observable Universe from Earth and its 6.93626 * 10^21 Squared Lightyears area of space being located within the North Quadrant in Toei's case or the "Edge of the Universe" in DBS's case are both extremely consistent.
Click to expand...
AS i said, his notes and statements regarding that were already proposed and rejected in a recent thread, i don't want to open that discussion again here, this thread is covering the current accepted reason for the shared cosmology, not a hypotetical that could be accepted, now if one wants to make another thread covering that to make it accepted, now that would be ideal, probably would even agree with, but i don't to derail this thread with topics it isn't covering at all

DarkDragonMedeus said:
And Toriyama's statements about the Other World having some Space-Time related separation/barriers was still noted. And it was clearly intended to apply for his original manga given that it again, was something he always had notes for before the Anime statements even existed.
Click to expand...
toryama statements regaeding that? I don't remember him ever talking about that at all, but as said above, if you want to you can gatter said scans and make a new thread to make them accepted here

DarkDragonMedeus said:
What you are getting from Toei is stuff like mentioning "No flow of time" and what not within the Other World. The destruction of both the Living World and Other World becoming a 2-C feat was still something that came from Toriyama's illustration noted by Executor.
Click to expand...
i don't remember that being what was noted by the illustration, regardless, as i said, since this was recently rejected in another thread, i don't want to try and propose it in a thread that has nothing to do with it

DarkDragonMedeus said:
Also, I trust Executor when it comes to translation stuff combined with cosmology statements; he's like right up there with DontTalkDT and Ultima Reality when it comes to how knowledgeable he is on those things.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and yet this translation was used as an argument in a recent thread and it was still rejected..........hence why i don't want to deal with it here since this thread is not covering that

Why is everyone so opposed about just doing another thread about it to make it accepted? I don't get it
 
Ednaxel2 said:
Really? Could you post the statement here if you can?
Click to expand...
Here
vsbattles.com

Uncompositing the Dragon Ball Cosmology

nice 'nu-uh' Here's the raw of both the question and it's answer, according to JJ there is no explicit wording such as 'personal' to begin with so again, you've all just been arguing over semantics in a translation Would be nice of Executor to double check this though, and to go into detail...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
I have the Spanish version and it doesn't say it's an anime, Null must have been mistaken,something that happens every time.

Heaven
(L) Beyond.
(C) World where the souls of good people live.
(1) Goku trained here for the 25th Tenkaichi Budôkai.
(A) The souls of the good people that the great King Enma separated gather here. It's a place as vast as the universe and its entire surface is a field of flowers.

Click to expand...

Why would the spanish version be used instead of the japanese one?
 
If i may, Something else that may or may not be useful to focus on, is how certain characters that are crucial for the cosmology in DBS, doesn't exist Dragon Ball GT such as Zeno, destroyers, angels, ect that should already be a red flag, but this alone by itself is not much, but each small difference adds up. (Keep in mind I have only watched the anime, and is far from a DB scaler, but rather a casual enjoyer for the verse.)

But yeah, I agree with uncompositing the cosmologies. Since it seems like it is very contradicting from statements, and ""feats"" inside the show itself. I have read all the arguements, and counter arguments. But it seems like it is currently information from inside the show vs information outside the show. When it comes down to that question I will always go for the information we have inside the show, as it is more important.

(Sorry for my bad English)

To summerise I think the evidence that the show itself prove that the cosmology can't be compsite, far out weight the statements and information outside the show.
 
Last edited:

Trunks' Statement​

For some reason we treat the statement trunks made about time travel in the OG manga as this:
"Trunks cites that each action in a timeline creates a new timeline. He states that there's a timeline where Goku is alive and a timeline where he is dead, listing the endless possibilities." i don't understand why an non translated japanese text is being used as evidence tbh
Click to expand...

Here is what the raws officially state.

ちょっとしたことでたくさんの未来ができてしまうわけです
Many futures are branched out of the smallest things.

The context of the scan stays consistent between both the Viz and way translations.



when in context.....Trunks is not talking about that at all? here is the full conversation with the context, in panel 1 the characters are discussing what could they do to deal with the androids, in which Trunks suggests using the time machine to go further back in time to destroy them before they are activated, in panel 2 Gohan asks if that would help, in which Trunks remembers that, even if he went back in time, nothing would change as by that point he would be going into another timeline, in panel 3 Trunks explains that he traveled not to change his future, but because his mom Bulma wanted to at least create a future where the androids didn't dominated the Earth, which gives context to what Trunks said earlier about "many different futures are created over the smallest things" is talking about the different futures that can be created from different changes made with time travel, as that was the entire context of the entire conversation, this is also corroborated in Super, which brings me to my next point
Click to expand...

The concept of how time works was further explained in Son Goku Densetsu. Where its explained that the principle of the parallel world works on the many worlds theory. When a person's actions lead to many deviations in history. As stated even if Goku and the rest were to defeat the androids this would only end up creating many new worlds with a different outcome.



What kind of effects will occur if history is changed?

By defeating Cell, Goku and Gohan saved their future, but the future where Trunks was from had Trunks himself defeating Cell. In other words, Goku overcoming the disease led to at least two different futures being created. Additionally, there is a future where Trunks is killed by Cell, meaning that even slight changes in history can create a great number of worlds.



2 Time Rings​

for some reason we take the chamber where the time ring box was as if every cabinet in there had a time ring, thus countless timelines:
"The full DB cosmology contains countless timelines."
well, that is wrong, severely so, first of, nothing indicates that all those cabinets have time rings of their own, nothing is ever stated about that room that even remotely indicates that only time rings are there, that is not even implied to be why they are there, when questioned where the time rings are Gowasu only says that he "stored it in a safe place" implying that they are only there simply because he choose to put them there

with that out of the way, the series directly goes against more time rings then the ones in that singular box, as we can see here, the entire context in which Beerus goes to check the time rings, they show the singular box containing 5 and say that these are "all of them(time rings) are there" aka only 5 times currently exist, each time ring represents an alternate timeline/world so if the verse with MWI where each possibility creates a new timeline/countless timeline exist and are constantly being created..........then obviously far more than 5 would exist, in fact, creating new timelines is implied to even be against the rules, here for full context, Gowasu explains to Zamasu that going to the past is forbidden because of the high risks it has, which he implies that are the alternate worlds created as that is what he immediately explains after talking about the "great risks" even calling the act of new worlds being created as "foolish"

in the manga similar is said about the creation of alternate timelines, with the addition of Gowasu's surprise reaction when he notices another time ring was created, which would be weird if countless alternate worlds are constantly created, likewise, it wouldn't make sense to check only a singular box if supposedly an endless amount of them exist with an endless amount of Time Rings
Click to expand...

It's forbidden for people to create new timelines through the act of time travel but.new timelines are constantly created by the individual actions of people. Pilaf tells us there are many worlds with different versions of them with different lives. The time rings in question were talking in reference to the timelines that were indirectly created through zamasus actions, not every timeline in existence.

This is not an assumption. It was previously explained that timelines are constantly created. The time rings we see have two types. Silver timerings that are created through the existence of new timelines, and green ones created when from a deviation in those timelines. When Gawasu was showed, the main cast, the existing timerings it was because of the changes that occurred due to Zamasu.

Pilaf later and many others confirmed that their are tons of timelines.



 
Ednaxel2 said:
Really? Could you post the statement here if you can?
Click to expand...
I think it might have been best to ping @Executor_N0 for that. I do not remember where exact, but I recall him being the one who found the translations.
omegabronic said:
The difference in votes for that was only of 1, can't remember from which side now, but still, it wasn't really a big majority either way

besides thst we would need to define which of said notes to usr
Click to expand...
The difference in 1 vote count is still a vote count difference + those who agree with using Executor's translation of Toriyama's notes still outrank those who disagreed is something that could be noted. Of course, outranking doesn't hold too much weight for verse specific topics, but it is still something that gives a slight lead at least.
 
ChoursDropoff said:
ちょっとしたことでたくさんの未来ができてしまうわけです
Click to expand...
Yes, the ちょっとした ("smallest of things") can produce たくさん ("a large number") of parallel worlds.
Small things like, say, travelling back in time and saving Goku from dying of a terminal illness.
ChoursDropoff said:
Where its explained that the principle of the parallel world works on the many worlds theory. When a person's actions lead to many deviations in history. As stated even if Goku and the rest were to defeat the androids this would only end up creating many new worlds with a different outcome.
Click to expand...
Firstly, Dragon Book Z Vol. 4.
Secondly, changes in one's actions creates new parallel worlds. Changes, evidently, caused by travelling back in time.
"The Artificial Humans are defeated" is a potential outcome that cannot exist without Trunks rewriting history.
ChoursDropoff said:
Pilaf tells us there are many worlds with different versions of them with different lives.
Click to expand...
(a) "Then... Then there are tons of different worlds[question mark]"
(b) "Tons" is unquantifiable.
ChoursDropoff said:
When Gawasu was showed, the main cast, the existing timerings it was because of the changes that occurred due to Zamasu.
Click to expand...
The additional Time Rings shown throughout the story arc are of Future Trunks's creation.
 
Nullflowerblush said:
Yes, the ちょっとした ("smallest of things") can produce たくさん ("a large number") of parallel worlds.
Small things like, say, travelling back in time and saving Goku from dying of a terminal illness.

Firstly, Dragon Book Z Vol. 4.
Secondly, changes in one's actions creates new parallel worlds. Changes, evidently, caused by travelling back in time.
"The Artificial Humans are defeated" is a potential outcome that cannot exist without Trunks rewriting history.

(a) "Then... Then there are tons of different worlds[question mark]"
(b) "Tons" is unquantifiable.

The additional Time Rings shown throughout the story arc are of Future Trunks's creation.
Click to expand...
I don't think we should use your translation, because you are not experienced in Japanese, let the @Executor_N0 translate this
 
ChoursDropoff said:
Here is what the raws officially state.

ちょっとしたことでたくさんの未来ができてしまうわけです
Many futures are branched out of the smallest things.

The context of the scan stays consistent between both the Viz and way translations.
Click to expand...


Not really, Trunks says something that is in line with the context of the scene......which all about time travel and how he made a new timeline by traveling to the past

ChoursDropoff said:
The concept of how time works was further explained in Son Goku Densetsu. Where its explained that the principle of the parallel world works on the many worlds theory. When a person's actions lead to many deviations in history. As stated even if Goku and the rest were to defeat the androids this would only end up creating many new worlds with a different outcome.
Click to expand...
That is not what is said, it said thay when an action changes a new world is born, which is in clear referencd to Trunks changing hiatory/actions with his time travelling, as that is what is said immediatly after, MWI is never even hinted here at all

ChoursDropoff said:
What kind of effects will occur if history is changed?

By defeating Cell, Goku and Gohan saved their future, but the future where Trunks was from had Trunks himself defeating Cell. In other words, Goku overcoming the disease led to at least two different futures being created. Additionally, there is a future where Trunks is killed by Cell, meaning that even slight changes in history can create a great number of worlds.
Click to expand...
Aka the way to create other worlds in by changing history, again, this scan does talk about MWI at all, but about other worlds being made with time travel, which is corroborated in Super
https://imgur.com/a/jr4hJkK
ChoursDropoff said:
It's forbidden for people to create new timelines through the act of time travel but.new timelines are constantly created by the individual actions of people. Pilaf tells us there are many worlds with different versions of them with different lives.
Click to expand...
which is true, there is 4 rings that represent alternate hiatories, 4 can be "many"

ChoursDropoff said:
The time rings in question were talking in reference to the timelines that were indirectly created through zamasus actions, not every timeline in existence.
Click to expand...
Gowasu describes them purely as representing alternate worlds, and says that the 5 he showed beerus where all that there were, therefore no more than 5 can exist

ChoursDropoff said:
This is not an assumption. It was previously explained that timelines are constantly created.
Click to expand...
It wasn

ChoursDropoff said:
The time rings we see have two types. Silver timerings that are created through the existence of new timelines, and green ones created when from a deviation in those timelines. When Gawasu was showed, the main cast, the existing timerings it was because of the changes that occurred due to Zamasu.
Click to expand...
No, these are the time rings created from thr past time travels made in DB in the past, also if there are countless being made why would checking 1 singular box with 5 be considered enough for Beerus and Whis? More else why would Gowasu consider these 5 as "all of them(time rings)" if there are supposedly uncountable ammounts of them?

ChoursDropoff said:
Pilaf later and many others confirmed that their are tons of timelines.



Click to expand...

Pilaf says this in reaction to Trunks explanation that his future is different than the future the main timeline will have, thus he would be talking about the green time rings timelines soecifically, which we know there are only 4 of

Moreover he never AFFIRMS it, he questions in surprise of discovering that other timelines exist, no one ever comfirms that tons of timelines exist and the series very much contradicts that notion, specially with Whis' statement making that an impossibility
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I think it might have been best to ping @Executor_N0 for that. I do not remember where exact, but I recall him being the one who found the translations.
Click to expand...
We already checked, luffy posted it

DarkDragonMedeus said:
The difference in 1 vote count is still a vote count difference + those who agree with using Executor's translation of Toriyama's notes still outrank those who disagreed is something that could be noted. Of course, outranking doesn't hold too much weight for verse specific topics, but it is still something that gives a slight lead at least.
Click to expand...
A "slight lead" is not enough for a conclusion or aproval tho, you are also ignoring how, as i said, this was brought up in a thread dedicated to it and it was rejected, so a nom aproved result of an unconcludes thread is not accepted in light of the new thread that was made

AS i said, just make another thread yourselves, from then statements i saw i would probably agree with it even, but this thread is dealing with the current reasoning only
 
LuffyRuffy46307 said:
I don't think we should use your translation, because you are not experienced in Japanese, let the @Executor_N0 translate this
Click to expand...
Luffy he's not translating the Japanese, he's interpreting the English. If someone says "おはようございます", I'd trust a fluent speaker to translate this over a random person. But if the translator tells said person that it means "good morning", they can still use context, tone, or facial cues to determine what said good morning means.
Clear angry tone while rolling eyes and anyone can tell you that it was said sarcastically. Doesn't take a language expert.
 
DivineAura44 said:
Luffy he's not translating the Japanese, he's interpreting the English. If someone says "おはようございます", I'd trust a fluent speaker to translate this over a random person. But if the translator tells said person that it means "good morning", they can still use context, tone, or facial cues to determine what said good morning means.
Clear angry tone while rolling eyes and anyone can tell you that it was said sarcastically. Doesn't take a language expert.
Click to expand...
What am i saying that the translation of @Executor_N0 it's accurate, Null said he doesn't know Japanese, so we all doubt his translation.
 
3-A - Anyone I have not mentioned that is currently 2-C
Low 2-C - Infinite Zamasu (Fused with the space-time of universe 7, he had this rating before he got upgraded to 2-C)
2-C (2 Universes) - See all characters here (DBS Anime only):
  • Son Goku (First Ultra Instinct -Sign- Awakening | Post-second Ultra Instinct -Sign- Awakening/Broly Saga as a Super Saiyan Blue | Third Ultra Instinct -Sign- Awakening/Perfected Ultra Instinct | Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero as a Super Saiyan Blue)
  • Vegeta (Super Saiyan Blue Evolution | Post-Tournament of Power/Broly Saga as a Super Saiyan Blue | Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero as a Super Saiyan Blue)
  • Gohan (Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero)
  • Piccolo (Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero)
  • Goten (Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero)
  • Trunks (Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero)
  • Frieza (Post-Tournament of Power as Golden Frieza)
  • Broly (Wrath State | Super Saiyan | Super Saiyan (Full Power))
  • Jiren
  • Toppo (Destroyer Form)
  • All Destroyers
  • All Angels
  • Anizala (Transformed)
  • Kefla (SS2 + Berserk)
  • Gogeta (Base Form and Super Saiyan | Super Saiyan Blue)
  • Gotenks (Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero)
  • Krillin's destructo disc in Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero since it could hurt Cell Max greatly
2-C (7 Universes) - Super Shenron (Restored the 7 universes Zeno erased)
Low 1-C - Grand Priest (DBS Manga), Zeno and Goku (Evolution)

If I missed someone let me know so I'll include it to the list
 
Ednaxel2 said:
3-A - Anyone I have not mentioned that is currently 2-C
Low 2-C - Infinite Zamasu (Fused with the space-time of universe 7, he had this rating before he got upgraded to 2-C)
2-C (2 Universes) - See all characters here (DBS Anime only):
  • Son Goku (First Ultra Instinct -Sign- Awakening | Post-second Ultra Instinct -Sign- Awakening/Broly Saga as a Super Saiyan Blue | Third Ultra Instinct -Sign- Awakening/Perfected Ultra Instinct | Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero as a Super Saiyan Blue)
  • Vegeta (Super Saiyan Blue Evolution | Post-Tournament of Power/Broly Saga as a Super Saiyan Blue | Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero as a Super Saiyan Blue)
  • Gohan (Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero)
  • Piccolo (Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero)
  • Goten (Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero)
  • Trunks (Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero)
  • Frieza (Post-Tournament of Power as Golden Frieza)
  • Broly (Wrath State | Super Saiyan | Super Saiyan (Full Power))
  • Jiren
  • Toppo (Destroyer Form)
  • All Destroyers
  • All Angels
  • Anizala (Transformed)
  • Kefla (SS2 + Berserk)
  • Gogeta (Base Form and Super Saiyan | Super Saiyan Blue)
  • Gotenks (Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero)
  • Krillin's destructo disc in Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero since it could hurt Cell Max greatly
2-C (7 Universes) - Super Shenron (Restored the 7 universes Zeno erased)
Low 1-C - Grand Priest (DBS Manga), Zeno and Goku (Evolution)

If I missed someone let me know so I'll include it to the list
Click to expand...
Wrong thread I think?, also goten in the same tier as destroyers is truly cursed
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

ChoursDropoff
  • Locked
Destroyers trying to make history
3 4 5
Replies
184
Views
14K
ChoursDropoff
ChoursDropoff
LuffyRuffy46307
  • Locked
Dragon Ball Special Addition Ki
Replies
19
Views
1K
Damage3245
Damage3245
TheGodOfICE777
  • Locked
DB Games: Ziku
2 3
Replies
88
Views
9K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
Killerdrone123
  • Locked
To be canon or not to be that is the question.A Dragon ball Super revision
2 3 4
Replies
152
Views
11K
AwkguyDB
AwkguyDB
Omegabronic
  • Locked
Spaces in Times Dragon Ball revision
7 8 9
Replies
326
Views
31K
LephyrTheRevanchist
LephyrTheRevanchist
Back
Top